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Dawn D.
10-01-2007, 10:21 AM
Has anyone else seen the Folgers coffee commercial that shows a GG getting out of bed in the morning saying right off the bat that, 'she sleeps in her husbands underware'. Then it goes on about coffee.

I usually don't try to compare the supposed double standard of GG's wearing "male clothes", however, I just cannot get over this one! The first time I saw this, I asked my wife what she thought of it. She hadn't even noticed it! So, later on it came on the tube again and this time she saw it. Again, I asked her what she thought. She said, "so what?". I asked, How would it be perceived if that were a guy waking up saying "I sleep in my wifes neglige". I think there would be a huge ferver of media hype and adverse reaction from the intolerant among us. Her response was " yes, I agree. But, what do you do about it?" I am at a loss.:straightface: Maybe we start a letter writing campaign to Folgers asking for equal time.........like that would ever work!

To some level though, I think it does go to show that there is somewhat of a "Double Starndard on an acceptable version of crossdresssing and the stereotypical non-acceptable variety.

What do think?



Dawn

BarbaraTalbot
10-01-2007, 11:26 AM
The point to women wearing a man's dress shirt and little else or boxers or a burlap sack is about how a truly beautiful woman can pull of anything. Look great first thing in the morning, no make-up, etc.

It's a matter of showing them "dressed down" not "dressed up in men's clothes".

Hard not to take it personally as a CD but it really isn't about us. Its frustrating how hard we have to work to look good even in drag, when they can model in drab and look hot.

Tamara Croft
10-01-2007, 11:56 AM
It's just underwear, who cares? and why is it such a double standard? You know what really gets on my nerves, is MTF's scream for acceptance, but then you complain about women wearing some male items... the only double standard I see here is you not being accepting of a woman wearing male underwear... How can you ask for acceptance, but then complain about this?

Christine Andrews
10-01-2007, 12:09 PM
I am inclined to agree that there is a double standard and there is certainly plenty of evidence to that effect, but at the end of the day I believe that the double standard is to a large degree self-imposed - it isn't illegal after all to wear clothes of the opposite sex otherwise we'd potentially all be jail birds right now.

Whilst I probably won't see the advert in question I have to agree with BarbaraTalbot in the nature of the advert. To attack the advert for presenting a form of crossdressing (identify according to taste or opinion) is like criticising yourself.

We all have the same rights to decide what we wear, it's just a question of your own comfort zone and desire to just be yourself and forget about the media which perpetuates sterotypes, norms, ideals and comfort zones to manipulate it's demographic and make money.

Best Regards
Kirsty :happy:

Deborah Jane
10-01-2007, 12:41 PM
How about this for an idea???.....Women wear what they want!!...Men wear what they want!!...Society just has to put up with it!!!:tongueout:tongueout....I,ve had enough of being told what i can and can,t wear!!!

Dixie
10-01-2007, 12:52 PM
:iagree:

Ema1234 GG
10-01-2007, 01:25 PM
Because for the majority of women (CDers and Transmen not included) when we choose to wear a male item of clothing it has absoloutely nothing to do with the way the clothes make us feel, or some desire to emulate a man.

I'd say it's pretty much a certain that we are wearing them for comfort, male and "unisex" clothing as a general rule is a hell of a lot more comfortable than what is stereotypically perceived as female clothing.

It's not a double standard, we are just choosing to wear what is comfortable. I can assure you that any CD out there that tells me a mini skirt and heels is more comfortable than jeans and trainers is lying! It's just a fact of life, masculine clothing is more comfortable and far less restrictive.

I have no problem with anyone wearing anything they want to, it appears that the only people who ever really pick up on this supposed double standard is the CDs who want to be able to wear female clothes, but then complain about women wearing male clothes. :rolleyes:

Dawn D.
10-01-2007, 01:27 PM
Tamara! Just exactly which part of my original post did you perceive as me NOT accepting women wearing men's underware? If it is there then maybe I should rephrase the comment. However that was not my intent.

Let me be clear about this,I do not care what any person wants to wear. The intent of this thread was just to offer a glimpse at what is interpreted by me as something that could and would be a double standard if the roles were reversed. You cannot actually believe that IF they were, society as we know it would not be abuzz about such a provocative sight?

I think I should have made it more clear in the original post that this is mostly for 'tongue in cheek' humor more that it is for raising a stir.

However,


How can you ask for acceptance, but then complain about this?

To answer your question, I can ask for acceptance, and I can complain about this. Precisely because it is true as viewed in our current civilization!




Dawn

Ema1234 GG
10-01-2007, 01:35 PM
Ok so if you honestly and truely don't have an issue with it, why make the post in a negative sense?

Instead you could talk about how fantastic it is that it's socially acceptable for a woman to be able to wear male clothing and why we think it isn't for a man. And why a woman wearing male clothing is seen as an advertising tool but it's unlikely that a man wearing female clothing would be used to advertise the same product.

As a side point though, in terms of advertising it's a far higher ratio of female models used to advertise products compared to male models. I guess we're just the more attractive sex lol! :tongueout

Dawn D.
10-01-2007, 01:36 PM
Ema1234:

Wow, these are not the reponses that I that I really thouhgt I get on this issue. It seems to really strike a nerve with some GG's that when we (CD's) see something and 'read into it'.


Because for the majority of women (CDers and Transmen not included) when we choose to wear a male item of clothing it has absoloutely nothing to do with the way the clothes make us feel, or some desire to emulate a man.

Quite wrong I think. In the aforementioned commercial, to me it was completely obvious that it was all about how it made herfeel. That was the message being sent. It then went on to show how good she felt after a cup 'o joe! Again, put a man in that position and that same commercial get's laughed off the air!



Dawn

Ema1234 GG
10-01-2007, 01:38 PM
I'm sorry but I'm a woman and you're not. Don't try and tell me how wearing male clothing makes me feel.

And surely the advert is talking about how the coffee makes her feel, not the clothing. Are you sure you aren't just reading into this way too much?

Dawn D.
10-01-2007, 02:00 PM
I have never said that I am a woman, nor have Ioffered an opinion on what makes you feel good!

And, YES, the intent of this commercial was in my opinion, equating how SHE felt sleeping in her husbands underware and how good that morning coffee makes her feel. Sorry, but that is the power of advertising.

Look, I did not come in here to start an argument with the GG's. However, I not going to let you bully me over either. Excuse me if my original post seemed negative to YOU. I do not see it as negative. It was just a thought of what a role reversal in that situation would have resulted in, in our society!

And, yes, I think it is AWESOME that a GG can and does openly wear male clothes whenever they feel the need and/or strike a whim! Just wish it were as simple an issue for us CD's.



Dawn.

Sharon
10-01-2007, 02:23 PM
You can wear whatever you want -- who's stopping you?

Meanwhile, this forum is not meant to be a conversation between two members. I suggest you take it to private message from here on.

crunchysoda
10-01-2007, 02:32 PM
The OT did not seem "tongue in cheek" to me. It's hard to get emotion accross online for sure.

I have to agree w/Barbara T, Ema, and Tamara.

Im not upset or angry either.

Shoot Im sitting here reading the forum, watching a movie, trying to figure out what Im going to do w/my life, doing dishes and chores all at the same time. Im talented like that.

Ive been a member here for about a month and Ive seen a few thread about the "double standard."

I just dont see how a woman in a commercial wearing a pair of boxers is the same thing as a man wearing a negligee. I havent seen the commercial, but Id be surprised if the "feelings" (ie they "feel" comfortable/casual)behind her wearing the boxers were the same as when most men wear women's lingerie.

Again not upset, or anything like that, just saying. :happy:

Tree GG
10-01-2007, 02:34 PM
Let's see, women make up over 50% of population. Men make up a little less than 50%. Who usually fixes the coffee at home? MTF CDs are approximately 7-14% of male population which would be roughly 3.5-7% of total population.

I believe Folgers really wouldn't want to spend alot of ad $ on that size market. Not a profitable business decision.

Sorry.

Ruth
10-01-2007, 02:44 PM
Well, the heat generated by this thread is evidence that there is some kind of issue simmering here. I get what the OP meant by double standards. It's quite a subtle thing, but then good advertising is like that. It tends to pick up the attitudes, desires and aspirations of the culture and feed them back (with of course a product placement).
So that woman in her man's underwear was not going to be a turn-off to either the female or male viewers of the ad. But we expect, with some justification, that if the roles were reversed a lot of both female and male viewers would have been uneasy.
And we're not talking about right or wrong, or what you or I might think, but about the great coffee-drinking masses out there, who have predictable attitudes to CDing.

Kate Simmons
10-01-2007, 02:56 PM
Hi Dawn. I know what the intention of your original post was. The commercial does sound rather innoculous to me however. When you think about it though it can be taken as sort of a compliment to us because gals are quick to know what is comfortable and so a lot of them choose guy underwear(even if we, because of who we are don't necessarily agree with that). In any case, I could care less if someone wears a bunny suit to bed, whatever works for you, right? Yeah, society has a long way to go until they do a TG commercial that is halfway serious and until they have the guts to show things in a more matter of fact positive way with something of this nature, I'd rather they didn't.:happy:

Dawn D.
10-01-2007, 02:57 PM
Ruth, you win the prize! You got my point. Thank you! It was about nothing more nor nothing less than what you have pointed out.




Dawn

Salandra:

Yeah, we wouldn't want to lose our mystique. Would we? lol.




Dawn

RobertaFermina
10-01-2007, 03:06 PM
If women dress or behave like men, they are still available to have babies. The race will continue.

If men dress or act like women, they may not be available and hard enough to defend the "realm." The race may not continue.

This is a simple explanation of the society's (such as it presently is) terror of "girly men".

I think it is valid because I think the part of the mind where these knee-jerk reactions form is a simple place.

Thank goodness that we have minds that can expand and take into account that we are no longer living in the face of violent intertribal warefare or violent predatory animals. We can check and moderate ancient programs...become modern, or practice freedoms made sensible within our present environment.

It is no longer necessary for all or many men to be intense, reactive reservoirs of testosterone or muscle bound killers in order for our "tribes" to survive and flourish.

On the other hand, we may slip back into such times (global warming, and sociopathic politicians being one source of regressive impulse) and we need such "stupid" mentalities in the gene pool as insurance against potential future environments.

I say GET OVER IT, such cro-magnon logic and reactionary memes will persist. We may get them to moderate, yet they will always gall us if we take it personal.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

kay2
10-01-2007, 03:52 PM
Thank you Dawn for pointing out the ad. Also, thank you Ruth for the simple clear comment. We all, men and women, face daily small indignities for the ways we were born, or the ways we choose to be. There are many double standards in our society, and the ad highlights one of them. It is not that the ad presents any view on men wearing clothing that is traditionally for women. It simply presents the 'cute' idea of a woman liking to wear her husband's clothing. It is us, on this forum, that of course appreciate that the reverse is not considered 'cute' - it is for many a cause for being ostracized.

Personally, I don't think of myself as a CD at all. A few times I've been asked if something I was wearing was "women's clothing". My answer is, "No, this is my own."

Jamie001
10-01-2007, 03:57 PM
Dawn,

There is something that you can do about it!! You can do what I do. I have a fem highlighted hairstyle with bangs and I always wear open toe women's sandals 24/7/365 to show off my professionally pedicured red toenails. The girls at work say that my toes are "hooker red". I am very proud of my fem hairstyle and nails. You can do that same thing. Get out there and proudly show the world fem characteristics when in male mode. That is the only way that we can fight-back. What do you think?

:2c: Jamie



Has anyone else seen the Folgers coffee commercial that shows a GG getting out of bed in the morning saying right off the bat that, 'she sleeps in her husbands underware'. Then it goes on about coffee.

I usually don't try to compare the supposed double standard of GG's wearing "male clothes", however, I just cannot get over this one! The first time I saw this, I asked my wife what she thought of it. She hadn't even noticed it! So, later on it came on the tube again and this time she saw it. Again, I asked her what she thought. She said, "so what?". I asked, How would it be perceived if that were a guy waking up saying "I sleep in my wifes neglige". I think there would be a huge ferver of media hype and adverse reaction from the intolerant among us. Her response was " yes, I agree. But, what do you do about it?" I am at a loss.:straightface: Maybe we start a letter writing campaign to Folgers asking for equal time.........like that would ever work!

To some level though, I think it does go to show that there is somewhat of a "Double Starndard on an acceptable version of crossdresssing and the stereotypical non-acceptable variety.

What do think?



Dawn

I have no problem with women wearing *any* item of men's clothing. I have the problem with society crying FOUL whenever a male puts on ANY article of women's clothing. The double standard is the problem!!


It's just underwear, who cares? and why is it such a double standard? You know what really gets on my nerves, is MTF's scream for acceptance, but then you complain about women wearing some male items... the only double standard I see here is you not being accepting of a woman wearing male underwear... How can you ask for acceptance, but then complain about this?

I believe if the roles had been reversed in the commercial and the male put on a pair of panties, a lot of members of society would have "freaked-out" (especially the religious right). This is a good example of the double standard. I will state again that I support the right for women to wear any article of clothing, however the same right needs to be extended to men. If I were to wear a skirt to work, I would be fired, however women wear suits and ties to work and there is no problem. This is the issue. It is the societal repercussions because by law a male can wear anything that he wants as long as it is not "indecent", however can he expect to still have a job the next day? Also, in most states there are laws to protect gay people but no laws to protect CDs/Transgendered. Unfortunately, males wearing female clothing is still viewed by the majority of society as "mental leprosy".


Well, the heat generated by this thread is evidence that there is some kind of issue simmering here. I get what the OP meant by double standards. It's quite a subtle thing, but then good advertising is like that. It tends to pick up the attitudes, desires and aspirations of the culture and feed them back (with of course a product placement).
So that woman in her man's underwear was not going to be a turn-off to either the female or male viewers of the ad. But we expect, with some justification, that if the roles were reversed a lot of both female and male viewers would have been uneasy.
And we're not talking about right or wrong, or what you or I might think, but about the great coffee-drinking masses out there, who have predictable attitudes to CDing.

Eugenie
10-01-2007, 04:29 PM
It's just underwear, who cares? and why is it such a double standard? You know what really gets on my nerves, is MTF's scream for acceptance, but then you complain about women wearing some male items... the only double standard I see here is you not being accepting of a woman wearing male underwear... How can you ask for acceptance, but then complain about this?

I think that there was some misunderstanding on the initial post intent.

No one is complaining because women wear male pajamas; this wasn't the point that was made. On the contrary, it is perfectly OK for a woman to wear men pajamas. I see no problem with it and I don't think anybody here think it is a problem nor complains about it.

Actually nobody in the general public even see anything wrong with a woman wearing men's pajamas on a TV commercial aired at a time of the day when children are watching TV. Most people don’t even notice…

The problem is that if, in a commercial, one was to portray a man wearing a lacy woman night gown, and then there would be an outburst of complaints from all sorts of "well thinking" people. "How dare you... What??? Showing an X-dresser at a time children may be watching?"

That's where the double standard is: It is alright to see a woman wearing men's underwear on a TV commercial but it isn't alright to see the contrary...

Actually, just to be fair, there are other commercials where some actions are well accepted if they are made by a man and not by a woman...

For me these are cases of discrimination.
:hugs:
Eugenie

loki_uk
10-01-2007, 04:37 PM
It's just underwear, who cares? and why is it such a double standard? You know what really gets on my nerves, is MTF's scream for acceptance, but then you complain about women wearing some male items... the only double standard I see here is you not being accepting of a woman wearing male underwear... How can you ask for acceptance, but then complain about this?


True but when you see adverts for 'boy cut jeans' or 'boy shorts' for women could you think of the reverse and advertising for 'girl cut jeans' and 'girl knickers' for blokes ;)

Still no double standard ?

Jamie001
10-01-2007, 04:54 PM
Agreed. When we see advertisments for "Girls Knickers for Blokes" or "Girls Jeans for Blokes" then we will know that there is no double standard. Anyone want to make a bet with me as to when this will happen? I will give you 10 to 1 odds. Hmmm, no takers? :heehee:


True but when you see adverts for 'boy cut jeans' or 'boy shorts' for women could you think of the reverse and advertising for 'girl cut jeans' and 'girl knickers' for blokes ;)

Still no double standard ?

jennifer41356
10-01-2007, 04:58 PM
I havnt seen the ad , but based on the history of advertising in the States it was more a message of a woman isnt a complete person unless she has a amna or lives a man life, so i would take take the ad as more of another dig at being female. She has to haves his clothes on to feel good about herself, which is complete BS:2c::Angry3:

LynnInDenver
10-01-2007, 06:20 PM
I havnt seen the ad , but based on the history of advertising in the States it was more a message of a woman isnt a complete person unless she has a amna or lives a man life, so i would take take the ad as more of another dig at being female. She has to haves his clothes on to feel good about herself, which is complete BS:2c::Angry3:

I've never subscribed to that particular idea that you have to have someone in your life, especially the idea that the person must be of the opposite gender. Some people, just aren't relationship people, and they're happy that way, and some, the 'expected' relationship just doesn't fit the way they are.

Anytime something comes up that says I'm only doing good when I'm married and breeding, I automatically tune it out, even though I'd like to have both. ;)

Melinda G
10-01-2007, 06:26 PM
In a similar vein, I see a lot of commercials making men look stupid, clumsy, dependent, and awkward, while the women are portrayed as cool, calm, and in control. Maybe it's time to write to these sponsors, and tell them we aren't going to buy their damn products! When is the last time you saw a woman made to look stupid in a commercial?
It will continue as long as we are willing to put up with it!

angelfire
10-01-2007, 07:38 PM
It's not a double standard, we are just choosing to wear what is comfortable. I can assure you that any CD out there that tells me a mini skirt and heels is more comfortable than jeans and trainers is lying! It's just a fact of life, masculine clothing is more comfortable and far less restrictive.


I agree and disagree at the same time. Yes, I understand heels & a mini is less comfortable than jeans & trainers. I get that, and understand it. But quite honestly, I find women's clothing (some of it, obviously not all) to be more comfortable. A little more restrictive perhaps, but since we are on the topic of underwear, lets discuss that. Men's underwear is pretty much all the same: boxers, briefs, or boxer briefs. It is pretty much all made out of the same materials. Sure, it isn't uncomfortable. Also, men's underwear come in very limited colours, but I guess that isn't really part of this debate.

Now women's underwear. Comes in so many different styles. Thongs, briefs, bikinis, g-string, boy shorts, etc. So, you may find thongs uncomfortable. Then you can wear bikini cut. Don't like that? Wear boy shorts. Don't like that? Wear briefs. Then, women's underwear comes in a number of different combinations of materials. Satin, silk, polyester, cotton, lace, microfiber, etc. Don't like lace cause it is itchy? Wear microfiber. Also again, kind of irrelevant, but so many different colours and designs.

I can understand that panties are generally tight, so 'restrictive', and I can understand wanting to wear men's boxers every now and then, or hell, even all the time. To be completely honest, I think a woman who sleeps in boxers and an oversized man's shirt is kind of cute.


I have no problem with anyone wearing anything they want to, it appears that the only people who ever really pick up on this supposed double standard is the CDs who want to be able to wear female clothes, but then complain about women wearing male clothes. :rolleyes:

I am not speaking for anyone else but myself here, but I do not shout the "double standard" in anger at women. They have earned the right to wear men's clothing, and they can wear what they want. I say, more power to you. I am not angry that women can wear men's clothing freely in public, I am more annoyed that men cannot wear women's clothing in public without the negative comments or outright offensive action. This has nothing to do with me not wanting women to wear men's clothing. I mean, that would be very hypocritical if I want to be able to wear a dress in public, but don't think you should be allowed to wear pants.

Jacqui
10-01-2007, 08:06 PM
Dawn, as Ruth pointed out, you have brought something to the surface (the "double standard") that has "percolated" through various posts at different times, echoed by many of us here, perhaps out of jealousy, envy, or just wishful thinking and perhaps is amassing an equal amount of resentment amongst the GG's here.

I can see both sides of the issue and I would like GG feedback to see if I have this right from their perspective, which in turn would make me feel that much more feminine (joke).

There are those CD's who dress to be more comfortable, and do not use makeup, wear wigs, bras, boobs, etc,....for those who simply dress because they like the feel, the look of women's clothing...the 100% CD'ers, and not because they want to be perceived or feel like a woman...I would say, for them there is a double standard.

But for the majority of us, isn't there just the slightest, or maybe a very intense desire to use the clothing as a launch pad to womanhood? Even for just a few hours? A touch of TG or TS, perhaps? That's the difference, I think, that is perceived by GG's. Not just wanting to wear the dress, but to be the woman.

As Emma alluded to, I also believe that non FTM women who wear male clothing do so to be comfortable and not to give the impression that they are a man or to feel or wish to be a man. There are exceptions, e.g. when I see a woman wearing a man's tie that is loosely knotted, I think she is sending a message that she wants to be treated as an equal to men. If the tie is tightly knotted up to her neck, then I think, maybe this woman wants to be a man. Why else would she be punishing herself?

In terms of the TV ad, I think that when a female SO wears an article of her partner's, she is sending a message: "I want to be close to you. I want to be a part of you!" I don't think it's: "I want to be a man like you!"

Does this make any sense?




The problem is that if, in a commercial, one was to portray a man wearing a lacy woman night gown, and then there would be an outburst of complaints from all sorts of "well thinking" people. "How dare you... What??? Showing an X-dresser at a time children may be watching?"

That's where the double standard is: It is alright to see a woman wearing men's underwear on a TV commercial but it isn't alright to see the contrary...

:hugs:
Eugenie

Eugenie, there have been some ads where men dress like women. But they invariably have beards, mustaches, thick eyebrows and muscles. The advertisers get away with it because they know the viewers perceive the guys as doing it just to get a free beer.

angelfire
10-01-2007, 08:37 PM
The problem is that if, in a commercial, one was to portray a man wearing a lacy woman night gown, and then there would be an outburst of complaints from all sorts of "well thinking" people. "How dare you... What??? Showing an X-dresser at a time children may be watching?"

Actually, this isn't true. There have been commercials that show crossdressers. I remember one where there is a plumber fixing something, and he bends over and it shows him wearing a red lace thong. I forget what it was for.

Another one showed a business man coming home, and getting undressed, then putting on make-up, a dress, and a wig, and his dog brings him his purse and he goes outside. Not sure what it was for either, but said "Great thing about animals: They don't care."

So the media does portray crossdressers, just not that often.

Fab Karen
10-01-2007, 08:47 PM
Let's see, women make up over 50% of population. Men make up a little less than 50%. Who usually fixes the coffee at home?
Whoever gets up first.

I see some GG's here implying CD's in general complain about women getting to wear "male clothes"- maybe you know one or a couple who did, but PLEASE don't stereotype us all as being that way.

Dee Talbot
10-01-2007, 09:01 PM
I think the issue (commercial) has less to do with a double standard when it comes to cross dressing, and more to do with society's willingness to accept just about anything when a "hot chick" does it.

Hot chicks can wear men's clothes, grope each other on TV or in movies (not that there is anything wrong with this one IMHO), marry men for their money, break laws, be idiots......and because it's a hot chick, it's acceptable to society. Think of how the media goes crazy when an attractive woman commits a horrible murder (think Karla Homolka). It's splashed all over the news because it's so much more tragic and unexpected when an attractive woman has commited a heinous crime. We look for reasons to excuse the behavior. For the average person to do the same, is rarely as easily accepted (think any man...think Aileen Wournos). Then, it's somehow more expected.

What does this all have to do with the original post. I don't see it as double standard between men and women. I see it as a double standard between hot chicks and everyone else. Why??? SEX!

If a hot chick is wearing men's underwear, it implies that somewhere (probably the bed), lies a men who has just had a glorious time with this sex goddess. She has then thrown on his underwear...because it's sexy....and then she is getting up to make him coffee. The ad works because the woman can feel "empowered" somehow by wearing whatever she wants, and the man enjoys it because he can imagine himself as the exhausted man in the bed, waiting for the sex goddess to return to serve him his coffee.

Do I think it's ridiculous? Of course!!! That's what Madison Avenue does best. They play into our subconscious desires to sell their product. Do I think it has anything to do with women being allowed to wear whatever they want? No. Not to say that there aren't double standards. While CD's may feel, rightfully so, that there are double standards (subtle or otherwise) when it comes to dressing....and while there has been a great deal of progress in granting rights to women (sometimes to the detriment of men, I can agree)....I PROMISE you, we women are still hit with discrimination and double standards every single day. That is just part of life.

It's the (insert expletive) that we as people deal with daily. And will continue to deal with until we can ALL (societal all...not directed at anyone on this board) agree to just accept each other unconditionally.

Dee

crunchysoda
10-01-2007, 11:54 PM
Dawn, as Ruth pointed out, you have brought something to the surface (the "double standard") that has "percolated" through various posts at different times, echoed by many of us here, perhaps out of jealousy, envy, or just wishful thinking and perhaps is amassing an equal amount of resentment amongst the GG's here.

I can see both sides of the issue and I would like GG feedback to see if I have this right from their perspective, which in turn would make me feel that much more feminine (joke).

There are those CD's who dress to be more comfortable, and do not use makeup, wear wigs, bras, boobs, etc,....for those who simply dress because they like the feel, the look of women's clothing...the 100% CD'ers, and not because they want to be perceived or feel like a woman...I would say, for them there is a double standard.

But for the majority of us, isn't there just the slightest, or maybe a very intense desire to use the clothing as a launch pad to womanhood? Even for just a few hours? A touch of TG or TS, perhaps? That's the difference, I think, that is perceived by GG's. Not just wanting to wear the dress, but to be the woman.

As Emma alluded to, I also believe that non FTM women who wear male clothing do so to be comfortable and not to give the impression that they are a man or to feel or wish to be a man. There are exceptions, e.g. when I see a woman wearing a man's tie that is loosely knotted, I think she is sending a message that she wants to be treated as an equal to men. If the tie is tightly knotted up to her neck, then I think, maybe this woman wants to be a man. Why else would she be punishing herself?

In terms of the TV ad, I think that when a female SO wears an article of her partner's, she is sending a message: "I want to be close to you. I want to be a part of you!" I don't think it's: "I want to be a man like you!"

Does this make any sense?




Eugenie, there have been some ads where men dress like women. But they invariably have beards, mustaches, thick eyebrows and muscles. The advertisers get away with it because they know the viewers perceive the guys as doing it just to get a free beer.

Yeah I think you understand at least what I was thinking.

On a side note I just saw a la quinta motel commericial w/a man wearing a "woman's blouse" and slacks/pants. :heehee:

Patricia Danielle
10-02-2007, 12:22 AM
Oh boy!? It's a coffee commerical, I can relate to it in the aspect that untill I have my first 2 pots of Folgers even our critters won't come near me so I guess it makes me feel great. I don't see how the world can function without a good hot cup of coffee? Patricia..

My Lady Marsea
10-02-2007, 12:32 AM
My :2c:. There is no question in my mind that a double standard dress code exists between men/women, although if I were a GG, I could see no reason to "dress down" to the average guy standards. (Well maybe to clean out a boiler or some other "great" guy thing LOL.)

Jamie001
10-02-2007, 12:35 AM
Dee,

You make a very good point that hot chicks can get away with anything! The average GG should be also insulted by this type of tolerated behavior. In order to substantiate the validity of your post: Consider that a guy is shown in bed with a rather butch looking woman. The rather butch looking woman gets up and puts on the guy's underwear and goes to make coffee. Do you think this concept would go over well? Definitely not!!




I think the issue (commercial) has less to do with a double standard when it comes to cross dressing, and more to do with society's willingness to accept just about anything when a "hot chick" does it.

Hot chicks can wear men's clothes, grope each other on TV or in movies (not that there is anything wrong with this one IMHO), marry men for their money, break laws, be idiots......and because it's a hot chick, it's acceptable to society. Think of how the media goes crazy when an attractive woman commits a horrible murder (think Karla Homolka). It's splashed all over the news because it's so much more tragic and unexpected when an attractive woman has commited a heinous crime. We look for reasons to excuse the behavior. For the average person to do the same, is rarely as easily accepted (think any man...think Aileen Wournos). Then, it's somehow more expected.

What does this all have to do with the original post. I don't see it as double standard between men and women. I see it as a double standard between hot chicks and everyone else. Why??? SEX!

If a hot chick is wearing men's underwear, it implies that somewhere (probably the bed), lies a men who has just had a glorious time with this sex goddess. She has then thrown on his underwear...because it's sexy....and then she is getting up to make him coffee. The ad works because the woman can feel "empowered" somehow by wearing whatever she wants, and the man enjoys it because he can imagine himself as the exhausted man in the bed, waiting for the sex goddess to return to serve him his coffee.

Do I think it's ridiculous? Of course!!! That's what Madison Avenue does best. They play into our subconscious desires to sell their product. Do I think it has anything to do with women being allowed to wear whatever they want? No. Not to say that there aren't double standards. While CD's may feel, rightfully so, that there are double standards (subtle or otherwise) when it comes to dressing....and while there has been a great deal of progress in granting rights to women (sometimes to the detriment of men, I can agree)....I PROMISE you, we women are still hit with discrimination and double standards every single day. That is just part of life.

It's the (insert expletive) that we as people deal with daily. And will continue to deal with until we can ALL (societal all...not directed at anyone on this board) agree to just accept each other unconditionally.

Dee

Jamie001
10-02-2007, 12:39 AM
ACgg,

If you see the commercial again, please tell us what it is about. I will bet you that the man is being portrayed in a negative or humorous light. For example, like Flip Wilson's Geraldine, or a guy that lost a bet and has to dress as a woman. That is usually the big difference. TV portrays men that wear articles of women's clothing as either comical or sick. They are *never* portrayed with respect.


Yeah I think you understand at least what I was thinking.

On a side note I just saw a la quinta motel commericial w/a man wearing a "woman's blouse" and slacks/pants. :heehee:

Oddlee
10-02-2007, 12:54 AM
Agreed. When we see advertisments for "Girls Knickers for Blokes" or "Girls Jeans for Blokes" then we will know that there is no double standard. Anyone want to make a bet with me as to when this will happen? I will give you 10 to 1 odds. Hmmm, no takers? :heehee:


Well, I've never seen them quoted as "girls shorts," but I have seen bikini briefs for men made by Jockey. And which gender is a tank top made for? I have not investigated either of these items to see if the choice of material is equal, but I can't remember seeing men's bikini briefs in anything other than cotton (sigh), so I guess I'll have to continue to buy the women's equivalent in nylon...

Lee

Jamie001
10-02-2007, 01:06 AM
Interesting, close, but close only counts in horse shoes and hand gernades!! It needs to say "Girl's shorts or girl's briefs for blokes". This will never happen because of the social hierarchical ladder. Females are still considered lower than a male in the hierarchy. Therefore, it is a social step-up for a woman to wear bloke clothing, and conversely it is a step-down for a bloke to wear girl clothing. That is the sad reality. Femininity is not valued except for making and raising babies. Even with all the lip service that is paid regarding equality between men and women, it isn't true! You will know it is true when it is no longer considered an insult for a boy to be called girlie. For example, an demeaning insult that is constantly hurled about by boys on the playground is: "you are such a girl!". When a boy hurls this insult, he should be spanked and have his mouth washed-out with soap just as if he used the 'N" word to refer to an African American. Mother's should take action against this because it perpetuates that attitude that exists regarding women. So GGs, the next time that you son hurls this type of insult at another boy, slap the crap out of him! :D


Well, I've never seen them quoted as "girls shorts," but I have seen bikini briefs for men made by Jockey. And which gender is a tank top made for? I have not investigated either of these items to see if the choice of material is equal, but I can't remember seeing men's bikini briefs in anything other than cotton (sigh), so I guess I'll have to continue to buy the women's equivalent in nylon...

Lee

Dee Talbot
10-02-2007, 01:31 AM
Dee,

You make a very good point that hot chicks can get away with anything! The average GG should be also insulted by this type of tolerated behavior. In order to substantiate the validity of your post: Consider that a guy is shown in bed with a rather butch looking woman. The rather butch looking woman gets up and puts on the guy's underwear and goes to make coffee. Do you think this concept would go over well? Definitely not!!
It is insulting. VERY insulting. This is a hot button issue with me right now. I just recently lost a great deal of weight. While I had been considered attractive as a young woman, with the additional weight on I felt ugly and it was reflected in my countenance. Now that I am thinner (and getting thinner all the time :D ) I dress and carry myself with more confidence.

I am finding that some men who treated me as a non-person when I was fat, are now suddenly treating me very differently. It's insulting. Just because I wasn't physically attractive with the weight on, doesn't mean that I am a different person inside. So why should I suddenly rate better treatment by salesmen, waiters, businessmen, etc.?

As far as the double standard. It's easy to see one there, when you have never walked in the other person's footprints. Currently, at the school where I work, there are 2 girls who prefer to wear boys clothes. One just happens to be my daughter...the other is the younger sister of my elder daughters best friend (follow that?). So I know both of these girls well, and have been taken into their confidence. My daughter, who is very feminine regardless of her clothes, is seen as an eccentric. She is teased a little, but not that much. The other girl, has presented as male from the time she was able to voice an opinion. She keeps her hair "boy short", wears all male clothes, and even goes by the male version of her female birth name. This girl is teased a great deal more. Sometimes unmercifully.

Would the second girl feel that she wears boy's clothes without any bias? Would she feel that she is free to express who she is without being unfairly stereotyped and called names? Absolutely not!!! She would view the idea that she is freer to dress as she wants than any man as preposterous.

So why does she do it anyway? Because this is who she is. She tells the other children on the playground that she is a GIRL (and she tells them in such a way that they won't likely forget it!!!! :D) But she feels more comfortable in boys clothes, and she is willing to take the crap that comes with wearing these clothes. She is really a very brave and self aware little girl. I admire her a great deal and think that many of us could learn a lesson from her.

Dee

Jamie001
10-02-2007, 01:45 AM
Dee,

I really like reading your posts because you have a very realistic view and tell it like it is! :hugs: :yrtw:

A lot of CDs could learn a lot from your words in the paragraph below. Basically if we want to advance the cause and be ourselves rather than cowering in the closet, we need to get out there and interact with everyone and show everyone that we are very proud of who we are! It seems to me that women are better at this than men because most of the men that I know have very fragile egos and can't take the heat the comes with being in the kitchen and therefore that hide in the closet.


:rant: I have the utmost admiration for folks that get out there and proudly show the world who they are instead of hiding in the closet. These folks advanced the cause and make a difference. Don't hide in the closet! Get out there and proudly make a difference! Don't wait for other CDs to pave the road for you! GET OUT THERE AND BEE SEEN AND INTERACT AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE! :2c:





---SNIP---

So why does she do it anyway? Because this is who she is. She tells the other children on the playground that she is a GIRL (and she tells them in such a way that they won't likely forget it!!!! :D) But she feels more comfortable in boys clothes, and she is willing to take the crap that comes with wearing these clothes. She is really a very brave and self aware little girl. I admire her a great deal and think that many of us could learn a lesson from her.

Dee

Satrana
10-02-2007, 02:33 AM
I think the issue (commercial) has less to do with a double standard when it comes to cross dressing, and more to do with society's willingness to accept just about anything when a "hot chick" does it.


Thank you Dee for bringing some common sense to this thread. Although we can moan about the double standards, this is not really the interesting angle to this commercial.

The advertisers are trying to draw a parallel between the sexy, edgy vision of a beautiful woman wearing her husband's underwear and their coffee. Drink our coffee and you will experience the same feelings!!

The point here is that the advertisers felt that a woman crossdressing is a sexy image, they believe that this is a turn-on, that this is something women want to do and something men would appreciate. Having a crossdressed woman was a deliberate ploy for the advert and definitely not just a comfortable unisex option. Wearing your partner's underwear clearly has symbolic meaning.

Since coffee is a genderless drink, this advert has to be attractive to women as well as men. Again they must believe that women do get a sexual rush from wearing their husband's clothing which is why she is wearing his underwear and not say his socks! It is all about sex appeal.

Update: Advertisements on TV are very expensive is everything is very calculated. So there must be data out there to show women like wearing male underwear. So I am reading surveys show 2/3 of women want to wear boxers and they find them sexier than briefs. This has led to boxer retailers re-labeling their product as unisex, the standard ploy to allow women to wear masculine clothing and bypass the taboo subject of crossdressing. She is not wearing male clothing.....she is wearing unisex clothing.

Jilmac
10-02-2007, 10:10 AM
dawn, i agree with you wholeheartedly a double standard has existed (at least in this country) for as long as i can remember. i've been dressing over 40 years and i'm still in the closet, for the most part, because of the double standard. i worked in the building trades all my life and know several female co workers who wore mens jeans and flannel shirts. one i know for sure even wore mens boxers and tee shirts, (her boobs were small so she never wore a bra), and none of them were ever put down as being perverted or wierd, as men are. if anyone thinks the one who wore the boxers was a dyke, think again, she was happily married with three kids. so yes dawn, there is definitely a double standard, and we are all victims of it. Jill

Di
10-02-2007, 10:15 AM
Ema1234:



Quite wrong I think. In the aforementioned commercial, to me it was completely obvious that it was all about how it made herfeel. That was the message being sent. It then went on to show how good she felt after a cup 'o joe! Again, put a man in that position and that same commercial get's laughed off the air!



Dawn

Please!!!!! the way she feels.... woman wear her guys boxers, pj/s shirts ect it is a in love thing...feeling close to her man....
The double standard?.........WEAR WHAT YOU WANT!!!....you are making just as many restrictions on yourself as you "think" others will.
Not going off topic here with a rant about double standards between men and women....jobs, pay and much more...but whatever progress we made the reality is that women took a stand and fought for that right.

Your posting about this does show you are not accepting of people wearing what they want.

Melinda G
10-02-2007, 10:47 AM
There is one major reason for the blatant double standards in our society today. The wheel that squeaks, gets the grease. The raucous civil rights movement, got respect for the blacks. The womens lib movement, got respect and special treatment for women. Remember all the women burning their bras. Bet you never saw a guy burning his jockstrap.
White, middle class men, have remained silent for the last 50 years, while society walks all over them and trashes their rights. Many commercials portray men as bumbling idiots, swilling beer, and burning the barbeque.

Go to any shopping center, in the middle of the day, and you will see 95% of the shoppers are women. Hardly any men to be seen. So the retailers cater to the women.

Dee Talbot
10-02-2007, 11:01 AM
Please!!!!! the way she feels.... woman wear her guys boxers, pj/s shirts ect it is a in love thing...feeling close to her man....
I agree 100%. I used to wear my boyfriend's boxers. It did make me feel sexy, but NOT because I was wearing men's underwear. It was because I was wearing my man's underwear. And he also found it dead sexy.

I also agree with Melinda G on products being marketed to women. The current trend in commercials is to have an intelligent, beautiful, resourceful women...explaining to her buffoon of a husband why the product she is using is the best choice. I DO NOT appreciate this tactic at all. I don't feel empowered by making my man look or feel like a jack***. I feel empowered by having my man recognize my better qualities and appreciate them. This is of course above and beyond what I do to feel empowered on my own.

Because advertising is so fantasy based, I don't think ads can be used as an accurate representation of the reality we face daily. It's no more fair to say that there is a double standard because women in commercials wear men's underwear than it is to say that because Hollywood depicts women as size 0 hard bodies, anyone who doesn't meet this unrealistic standard is somehow inferior.

We need to look to real life, in person, average Jane's on the street to see if there really is a double standard. Or I say, the only reasonable comparison is between the CD and the Transmen. I feel safe in saying that the Transmen on this board would feel that they encounter just as much discrimination and the Crossdressers. To compare those of use who fall outside the bounds of these examples is to compare apples and oranges.

(Allow me to add, I understand that we/I have strayed from the OT intent, and do not intend my post to be a castigation of the OP at all. Rather, just a discussion relevent to the direction this thread has taken)

Dee

Tamara Croft
10-02-2007, 11:19 AM
Tamara! Just exactly which part of my original post did you perceive as me NOT accepting women wearing men's underware? Maybe it was this?
I usually don't try to compare the supposed double standard of GG's wearing "male clothes", however, I just cannot get over this one!If you can't get over something, then you have a problem with it. I feel that many people get the wrong end of the stick when a woman is wearing something of the opposite gender, wearing male boxers does not make them crossdressers, which seems to be the constant gripe. I don't understand the 'if men did that in an advert, there'd be an uproar'... why? I don't agree, I've seen a lot of adverts with men wearing women’s clothes, if they were so bad, there would be complaints and said adverts would be pulled, but they aren't. There are numerous television programs now, series etc with CD's in them or men slipping into their partners clothes... nothing is said, it's becoming the norm.

I have to wonder if those with these hang-ups about seeing adverts with women wearing male clothes/underwear get so wound up because they are closeted, not out etc... Your life is what you make it, if you can't go out there and be who you are, that's your problem, stop making it ours, you don't see us whinging all the time, our ancestors got off their backsides and did something about it... grow a set already and do something instead of pulling this double standard excuse all the time.

Dawn D.
10-02-2007, 11:47 AM
Well, I never dreamed that this thread would cause such a discussion. It has turned out to be a very interesting exchange of ideas about a supposed "Double Standard" existing and what it means. I had a fairly lengthy conversation with my Wife last evening and listened to her opinion of whether I was making too much of this or not. In a nut shell she says "yes, you are". Asking her to qualify that she says " First you came across differently than what I know you intended. Second, the reason that she (in the commercial) is wearing them (mens boxers) is because she is perceived as doing something that she feels keeps her close to her Husband and it's considered 'sexy' and thats it! The rest is about selling coffee!". I countered with the oft used "oh but if they did it with a guy in her panties....." rhetorical rebuttal. She responded with "I'm sorry but the world just needs more education on this stuff. It may not seem to fair you (CD's) and for the most part it isn't. But, until the rest of the world sees you (CD's) as not threatening to either masculinity as a whole or that you are some pervert that might get hold of someones child, it's always going to be this way. Education and communication is the key".

So, my promise to her was that should I post anything further, I must try to be more clear about my message. I just gotta say one thing here though. This gift of cross-dressing has done wonders for our interaction with each other. We communicate in ways that the pre-CD (unknown) years, we never could. And, I know she does appreciate that! So do I. Thank you Sweetheart!

Now, as to what has been offered here. I have read some very wonderful thoughts from everyone that has posted. It seems as though there may be some misunderstandings as to how legitimate it is or not to say that there are at times this double standard in our society. Does it really matter? In the end, it all comes down to perception and opinion from all involved. The important thing is as some have said, to be active and involved in an effort to eliminate this real or imagined inequity. I don't think this means that we, who are still quite stealth, have to jump right out in broad daylight and announce to the world that "I want to be in the next Folgers Coffee commercial!". No, be involved by keeping that line of communication open between those you care about and listen to them. Be active by (depending on how deeply this issue affects you, i.e. what level a CD you are) doing your best to be honest about who you are and allow it on some level (comfortable to you AND your SO) to show through to others who do not know of this gift or don't understand it. As has been said here and in a host of other threads the more the world hears about us, the more that they cannot ignore us. Once we bend enough ears, then, we will begin to straighten out and delegitimize the misconceived notion that we are not worth taking seriously. We are!

In my own efforts, I just recently got my ears pierced. "OH big deal", you say "a lot of guys wear earing's these days". Well for me and my Wife it is. I have always been known locally as one who is straight laced and overloaded on testosterone. So for my friends to suddenly see me wearing two diamond stud earing's, it's quite a shock. However, it has not banned me from being included in the "gang". They wonder about what is going on. I respond simply that "I am growing (mentally)". I get some quizzical looks and then shrugs of "OK". That is how easy it is to make it normal. I have my toe nails painted all the time. and have revealed them to a number of friends and relatives. Again it is becoming "normal". This is how 'normal' happens. Letting others know. I don't know how far I will get in trying to make this gift seen as normal, but, I am doing what I can. We all need to do what we can.

On another note, if I offended anyone yesterday that i posted to, I apologize sincerely. It was not my intent to offend. I feel this board is an astounding way for all involved to communicate and learn. There is enough harshness in the world, I come here to feel better about myself and hope that others in my position and GG's on the other side are able to as well.





Dawn

jaina
10-02-2007, 12:58 PM
There is a huge double standard and will allways be as long as there are rigidly defined gender roles. Women defend this particular double standard by claiming they do it for none of the same reasons that men wear womens clothing and it flies because that particular behaviour is accepted by society as a whole. Other double standards exist , not all related to gender roles, and the people that benefit from them allways defend them.

That this double standard exist can't be argued. They very fact that there are entire discussions about boundries in crossdressing and relationships proves it exists. The real dissussion should be how to remove it.if a double standard like this bothers you, and it should, fight to remove it. Get out in society, speak with your money, be willing to take a few looks and comments, be willing to lose a job or two. Don't take crap out in the world or at home.

Don't hide behind my skirt, go wear your one, and wear it outside. Stop letting anyone stop you.

charllote34
10-02-2007, 01:01 PM
ive not seen the advert , but its done its job as we are talking about a product that we cant evan buy in the UK!!!

Carin's Wife GG
10-02-2007, 01:03 PM
There is one major reason for the blatant double standards in our society today. The wheel that squeaks, gets the grease. The raucous civil rights movement, got respect for the blacks. The womens lib movement, got respect and special treatment for women. Remember all the women burning their bras. Bet you never saw a guy burning his jockstrap.
White, middle class men, have remained silent for the last 50 years, while society walks all over them and trashes their rights. Many commercials portray men as bumbling idiots, swilling beer, and burning the barbeque.

Go to any shopping center, in the middle of the day, and you will see 95% of the shoppers are women. Hardly any men to be seen. So the retailers cater to the women.


"white middle class men....while society all over them and trashes their rights"

White middle class men have ALL the power in our society. Even in 2007. To say otherwise is either naive or disingenuous.


Louise.

Shelly Preston
10-02-2007, 01:07 PM
Please!!!!! the way she feels.... woman wear her guys boxers, pj/s shirts ect it is a in love thing...feeling close to her man....



I think this is 100% true and most men cd or not seem to find it incredibly sexy

Nothing to do with double standards

jaina
10-02-2007, 01:11 PM
ive not seen the advert , but its done its job as we are talking about a product that we cant evan buy in the UK!!!

I actually work in advertising and this one could be as big a flop in this market segment as the old Wendy's "Where's the Beef" add. The commercial was famous but sales and market share didn't increase noticably during its run. As tool to sell product it was a waste of $$.


edit:
Hmm,,,, speaking of that has anyone seen the Wendy's commercial with the guy in long red pigtails?

Dawn D.
10-02-2007, 01:29 PM
jaina wrote:

Hmm,,,, speaking of that has anyone seen the Wendy's commercial with the guy in long red pigtails?

Now that you mention it, yes I have seen those ads. It seems to be kind of a laugh. In the ad they also superimpose the heads of men on the bodies of excited woman at some old rock concerts. Haven't figured out their message yet. What do you suppose it is?




Dawn

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-02-2007, 01:45 PM
Because for the majority of women (CDers and Transmen not included) when we choose to wear a male item of clothing it has absoloutely nothing to do with the way the clothes make us feel, or some desire to emulate a man.

Some of us want to emulate ourselves how we would be if the bigoted world allowed us to.

noname
10-02-2007, 01:49 PM
Because for the majority of women (CDers and Transmen not included) when we choose to wear a male item of clothing it has absoloutely nothing to do with the way the clothes make us feel, or some desire to emulate a man.

There are cd's that do not try to emulate a women, but it seems most people don't accept that either.


I'd say it's pretty much a certain that we are wearing them for comfort, male and "unisex" clothing as a general rule is a hell of a lot more comfortable than what is stereotypically perceived as female clothing.

Maybe, but your wearing the same items over and oveer again. Perhaps guys would like to change it up a bit.


It's not a double standard, we are just choosing to wear what is comfortable. I can assure you that any CD out there that tells me a mini skirt and heels is more comfortable than jeans and trainers is lying! It's just a fact of life, masculine clothing is more comfortable and far less restrictive.

I would disagree, it is a double standard. If people accept that a woman can wear mens clothing because it is comfortable, they need to also accept that a guy might want to wear womens clothes because he perfers the styles. Not all cd's wear miniskirts and high heels. I just bought a black ribbed turtle neck and guess what, The fabric is soft and stretchy and isn't baggy through the arms. For me, it's more comfy that any guy turtle neck I've seens.



I have no problem with anyone wearing anything they want to, it appears that the only people who ever really pick up on this supposed double standard is the CDs who want to be able to wear female clothes, but then complain about women wearing male clothes. :rolleyes:

Glad your open to allowing people to wear what they want. I believe the reason cd's find it upsetting is that it shows once again how acceptable it is for women to wear litterally anything.

bobi jean
10-02-2007, 01:52 PM
Dawn D. why not contact Folgers and ask if you could volunteer to do a commercial exactly like the one you mentioned only you are a man waking up saying you sleep in your wifes undies?
may be one way to find out just how double standards (if applicable) work.

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-02-2007, 01:53 PM
It's not a double standard, we are just choosing to wear what is comfortable. I can assure you that any CD out there that tells me a mini skirt and heels is more comfortable than jeans and trainers is lying! It's just a fact of life, masculine clothing is more comfortable and far less restrictive.


Try jamming male anatomy into those pants and get back to me on skirts :D

Sandra
10-02-2007, 01:56 PM
You know if those of you who have moaned about double standards and it being more acceptable for women to wear this or that, got out into the real world as the women you try to portray then it might become more acceptable for you to wear what you want.

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-02-2007, 02:01 PM
Some places you can still get arrested for that. I dont know what happens in womens jail if your wearing a mans shirt. But here in Yee Haw getting thrown in mens jail in a womans shirt is bad, very bad.

CaptLex
10-02-2007, 02:01 PM
As some have mentioned (thank you, Tree), it's all the about the bottom line - making money/selling a product, and the advertisers appeal to the majority (i.e., white, middle-class, "straight" people mostly here in the U.S.). They know who they're marketing for. It's the same thing with a certain jeans commercial I've seen where the guy puts on the jeans and a woman pops out of a phone booth for him. The same ad on gay channels is shown as a guy popping out of the phone booth - but they would never show that ad on mainstream TV, only on the the gay channel where it might not offend anyone. And you only see scantily clad men (instead of scantily clad women) in the Bud Light ads in gay magazine - never in mainstream ones. Is it a double standard? You could say so, or you can say they know who they're marketing for. Just my Madison Avenue :2c:

Tamara Croft
10-02-2007, 02:28 PM
Shall we go down the 'double standard' of the actual commercial?? Notice, they use a nice slim, sexy, gorgeous woman... where does that leave the voluptuous (to be polite) women eh? Do you ever see them running around in adverts in underwear, anyones underwear for that matter? No.. you don't... why? because people don't want to see it.. they want something that sells sex, and sorry but, us voluptuous girls just don't sell it, we're shoved in the closet with you CD's... so, get over it, it's no big deal.... you don't see us having such a big whinge about it... :rolleyes:

And do you hear the FTM's going on and on about how hard done by they are... you don't see strapping FTM's in these adverts do you... no... and there are some really handsome FTM's out there. So, please... either do something about it, get out there, or... stop complaining... you can only change something if you do it yourself... you're not children fgs!!!

Eugenie
10-02-2007, 03:45 PM
Actually, this isn't true. There have been commercials that show crossdressers. I remember one where there is a plumber fixing something, and he bends over and it shows him wearing a red lace thong. I forget what it was for.

Another one showed a business man coming home, and getting undressed, then putting on make-up, a dress, and a wig, and his dog brings him his purse and he goes outside. Not sure what it was for either, but said "Great thing about animals: They don't care."

So the media does portray crossdressers, just not that often.

I aggree, indeed there have been some X-dresser based commercial, but there they were definitely intended to be just that.

AsJacqui said:
Eugenie, there have been some ads where men dress like women. But they invariably have beards, mustaches, thick eyebrows and muscles. The advertisers get away with it because they know the viewers perceive the guys as doing it just to get a free beer.

Actually some have been a lot more "sexy"... But always with a touch of "Forbiden"...

The point in the Folger's commercial, is that no ones even notice it. And contrary to what has been said, the ones who complain here are not adressing the fact that a woman wears a mens pajama, there is absolutely no quarrel about that. And it is fine if a woman prefers wearing that.

I also aggree that we CDs must do the same with women night wear if that is what we like to do.

The point made in the initial post on the subject was and remains that an advertising company feels it is OK to portray such a scene and not one with reverse gender roles. Probably because they know that the public oppinion isn't ready for it...

Perhaps we have to be a lot more active on the media front to get what Women got through the Women's lib movement, the homosexual got with the Gay movement... I'm not saying that either group got everything they wanted but they sure got something...

Finally I would fight with equal energy any discriminatory commercial giving a bad image of women or any other constituency. I'm very active in a large non discrimination lobby and I have already proven that I kept my commitents.

:hugs:
Eugenie

Dawn D.
10-02-2007, 05:41 PM
Ok, just to show were my heart is in all of this I took others advice to either (in effect) put up or shut up. So here is what I did. I emailed Folgers parent company Procter & Gambel with the following:

Greetings to all! First allow me to state, this is not a complaint. However, this may come out of the blue for you. Your recent ad that depicts a very nice young lady that is just rising from sleep and states in effect "I like to wear my husbands boxers" is causing some commotion. Please allow me to explain:

You see, I am a male to female crossdresser. And, I am a member of a forum community on line that discusses crossdressing issues. A place for emotional support and answers as to why we do what we do. We are a very lively bunch and since I have been involved in it my life has been immensly enriched. Enough about me though(for now).

One day I saw the aforementioned commercial and had to wonder about what I perceived as a potential double standard in society. One in which we have reached a point that society no longer cares one way or the other should a female long to wear her husbands clothing openly in public. This creates distress for some of us who are crossdressers (primarily male to female) because, of our fear of public chastisement and hurting our beloved family members should we decide to do the same thing. So I went to the above mentioned site and made a thread posting about this ad and the percieved "Double Standard" that it presents. It's caused quite a debate. Some say we take it too seriously and others believe we are whining over nothing. Still a lot of us feel that there is a societal double standard when it comes to the issue of crossdressing and how we would be received in a public setting if the roles were reversed in your ad. There in lies the question.

It has been estimated that in this country our population accounts for between 7-10 percent as a whole. Is that enough of a market to advertise to? I do not know how P&G (Procter & Gambel) and Folgers feel about creating tolerance and furthering public awareness, however could you entertain the possiblity of incorporating a similar scenario depicting the male that has a special fondness for his wife and is not affraid to encounter those feelings. If not what is your take on the reason as to why? I believe the issue could be developed and brought about delicately enough not to raise a huge public outcry. After all how many other complaints have you received over your present ad doing the same as we do only in the opposite gender? I for one would be willing to apply for that ad acting position if it were available.

Thank you for your time and concideration. Please allow me some anonymity for now (for the obvious reasons). My name can be provided upon request.

Sincerely,


I'll let you know if I get a response.

Dawn

Di
10-02-2007, 06:10 PM
I am sure you will get a nice reply to your letter..........BUT I think you missed the whole point of the commerical....as it has nothing to do with a double standard or cding:rolleyes:....as I tried earlier to explain to you...what it portrays....they will at least get a chuckle...as it went over your head.The word clueless comes to mind.

Tamara Croft
10-02-2007, 06:34 PM
The word clueless comes to mind.I can think of a few more words that come to mine :rolleyes: I mean really, emailing a company over boxer shorts... nuff said...

Wendy me
10-02-2007, 06:40 PM
how do we expect people to understand us wearing women's underthings if we get silly abought them wearing men's undies.......????????...........

Jamie001
10-02-2007, 07:33 PM
AMEN! Many CDs need to stop being part of the problem and become part of the solution. Get out there and be seen in your community by your friends and family and everyone. Be proud of who you are and things will change!! There is no doubt about that. Please don't cower in the closet and wait for other CDs to get out there and plow a safe path for you. This is not that way that it works. Be proud of who you are and get out there and show that pride to your family, friends, and nieghbors. That is the only way to affect change.



There is a huge double standard and will allways be as long as there are rigidly defined gender roles. Women defend this particular double standard by claiming they do it for none of the same reasons that men wear womens clothing and it flies because that particular behaviour is accepted by society as a whole. Other double standards exist , not all related to gender roles, and the people that benefit from them allways defend them.

That this double standard exist can't be argued. They very fact that there are entire discussions about boundries in crossdressing and relationships proves it exists. The real dissussion should be how to remove it.if a double standard like this bothers you, and it should, fight to remove it. Get out in society, speak with your money, be willing to take a few looks and comments, be willing to lose a job or two. Don't take crap out in the world or at home.

Don't hide behind my skirt, go wear your one, and wear it outside. Stop letting anyone stop you.

Jamie001
10-02-2007, 07:35 PM
They may have power, but they don't even haver power over the clothing that they wear. They allow society to dictate this aspect of their lives.


"white middle class men....while society all over them and trashes their rights"

White middle class men have ALL the power in our society. Even in 2007. To say otherwise is either naive or disingenuous.


Louise.

Ema1234 GG
10-02-2007, 07:51 PM
Glad your open to allowing people to wear what they want. I believe the reason cd's find it upsetting is that it shows once again how acceptable it is for women to wear litterally anything.

Perhaps consider this...

Is it really constructive to criticise other people for being able to wear whatever they want when you want to be able to wear whatever you want yourself. Doesn't this purely and simply come down to the fact that you perceive women as being able to wear both male and female clothes and are jealous because that is what you want to be able to do?

Instead of just talking about double standards and how unfair it is, why not get out there and start wearing women's clothes in public. It's really not all that long ago that it was shocking for a woman to be wearing trousers, it's amazing how times change but nothings going to change if you all sit at home and complain about it but then don't do anything to back it up!

Society isn't going to change of it's own accord, you need to make it happen. It's like most things in life, you have to work to make it happen and I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't be complaining about something unless you're prepared to do something about it!

For those of you who are pushing the boundaries, getting your ears pierced, wearing nail polish, etc etc I applaud you. It is you who are most likely to bring about any change in the acceptance of general society. If no one see's guys wearing female items then they are never given the chance to become used to it.


Try jamming male anatomy into those pants and get back to me on skirts :D

That's female pants love, male pants tend to be more roomy lol! :tongueout

battybattybats
10-02-2007, 08:27 PM
"white middle class men....while society all over them and trashes their rights"

White middle class men have ALL the power in our society. Even in 2007. To say otherwise is either naive or disingenuous.


Louise.

Some facts though.

In Australia boys average test scores have been plumeting for well over a decade as girls get focused on in classes. I agree with affirmative action however when it has met it's target that is good, when it goes well past it's target it is important to roll it back till things reach balence. Any time this subject is brought up in the media there are howls of protest and it is dropped like a hot potato. If this continues it will be disasterous.

A study of the representation of males in Australian media showed that the vast, vast proportion of representation of males in the media were very negative. Males generally being shown as violent and abusive or bumbling, simpleminded and incompetant. This is having a strong influence on the problems like teen male self-esteem depression and suicide.

Now I don't agree that many rights of white middle class men have been 'trashed' but the next generation of young men are being damaged by the current attitudes to men and the unbalanced education procedures.

Lets look at the economic class spectrum... low levels.. women get jobs more easily. Most of these are shopfront counter jobs because the hiring philosophy is that men like to be served by women because they want to date them whereas women like to be served by women because they are more comfortable dealing with women than potentially 'threatening' and 'intimidating' men. At the education situation at this level girls do much better than boys and there is substantial problems for both genders but suicide and depression are much worse for males. Move up to the middle levels.. women have made good inroads in the workforce here. In education the levels are closer but the girls averages outstrip the boys and the boys levels are still in free-fall. In this level male suicide and depression is still much higher. At the top end of the spectrum.. here is where the glass ceiling lies. Few women have got through. This is still dominated by old boys networks and private schooling and here boys test results dominate. This is the group that most politicians come from, that most business leaders come from. These are the people that own most of the media companies.

It looks to me that the socio-economic system is the problem here. Certainly many that used to be referred to as 'upper middle class' now go for private schooling in their attempts to climb the system.. and so should probably be counted as an extension of the upper classes for this. I suggest that these are the people who have the power currently.

I consider myself a feminist because I concur with notions of equality, ending discrimination and fighting oppression of minorities. There is a problem with the portrayel of men in the media. There is a problem with balancing education needs.


Shall we go down the 'double standard' of the actual commercial?? Notice, they use a nice slim, sexy, gorgeous woman... where does that leave the voluptuous (to be polite) women eh? Do you ever see them running around in adverts in underwear, anyones underwear for that matter? No.. you don't... why? because people don't want to see it.. they want something that sells sex, and sorry but, us voluptuous girls just don't sell it, we're shoved in the closet with you CD's... so, get over it, it's no big deal.... you don't see us having such a big whinge about it...

Actually lots of guys prefer voluptuous women. Just as most guys prefer redheads and brunettes to blondes. You don't see that in the media though because the media doesn't care about statistical studies about what people want. It hasn't been true since the end of world war 2. Sure you here all the rubbish arguments about 'market driven'. It's a load of deliberate lies. The people who were in charge of propaganda in world war 2 went into advertising after the war. The idea? To tell people what they needed. To convince them that they wanted a product rather than to give them the product they wanted. When Neuro Linguistic Programming became a subject in the academic world where did it get the most attention? Was it psychological practise to heal people? No. It was advertising to make money from people. There are some very interesting books on how war information manipulation then moves on imediatly into business and advertising. This has all been studied thoroughly, it's not conspiracy theory but academically rigourous but would the media report it properly? Of course not, they are complicit in it so they haven't.

Selling people unrealistic ideals of beauty and then associating images of that unachievable goal with unrelated products sets up an unconcious desire for people to own the product because unconciously we are convinced that owning that will move us to that goal. When it doesn't we remain unsatisfied which is absolutely essential for us to remain driven consumers but rather than shrugging off the unrealistic goal we then look to the next thing that unconciously promises it to us. This keeps us constant consumers. This is the driving force of the post war economy. Whether it was shiny white fridges in the 50's and 60's to the cornacopia of products sat next to underweight and often underage models in womens magazines it's the same thing. A deliberate system of manipulation designed to make money because it works.

In the real world more men like natural figures, curvaceuos bodies with a slightly above midline BMI, the healthiest bodies. They prefer natural skintones to tans, they consider redhair as sexiest and brunettes as interesting and mysterious. We know this because it's been thoroughly studied.

There are some rare exceptions. Dove for example is fighting the ageism on tv with it's latest ads and there have been a couple of companies that have shown halthy diverse women.. but...

As for offensive ads.. anyone seen Solo's 'man cans' ads? Or the commercial with the 'blokey' guys smiling as they drive past some police arresting effeminate guys with a road sign 'now targetting: metrosexuals' instead of 'now targetting: speeding' or 'now targetting: drink driving'.

Sheila
10-02-2007, 08:35 PM
Perhaps consider this...

Is it really constructive to criticise other people for being able to wear whatever they want when you want to be able to wear whatever you want yourself. Doesn't this purely and simply come down to the fact that you perceive women as being able to wear both male and female clothes and are jealous because that is what you want to be able to do?

Instead of just talking about double standards and how unfair it is, why not get out there and start wearing women's clothes in public. It's really not all that long ago that it was shocking for a woman to be wearing trousers, it's amazing how times change but nothings going to change if you all sit at home and complain about it but then don't do anything to back it up!

Society isn't going to change of it's own accord, you need to make it happen. It's like most things in life, you have to work to make it happen and I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't be complaining about something unless you're prepared to do something about it!

For those of you who are pushing the boundaries, getting your ears pierced, wearing nail polish, etc etc I applaud you. It is you who are most likely to bring about any change in the acceptance of general society. If no one see's guys wearing female items then they are never given the chance to become used to it.

:iagree:

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

jaina
10-02-2007, 08:43 PM
Ok, just to show were my heart is in all of this I took others advice to either (in effect) put up or shut up. So here is what I did. I emailed Folgers parent company Procter & Gambel with the following:



Dawn


Bravo.:drink:

BarbaraTalbot
10-02-2007, 09:06 PM
"white middle class men....while society all over them and trashes their rights"

White middle class men have ALL the power in our society. Even in 2007. To say otherwise is either naive or disingenuous.


Louise.

You obviously have never been a white male. This is a TRULY naive statement. Those above the so called glass ceiling are less than 1/10 of one percent of the work force. These men (and yes they are almost always men) ALL have MBA's from Harvard or Yale, have family connections, born with money and work 70-100 hours a week at the complete sacrifice of their families. You know anyone in the secretarial pool with those qualifications, connections and willingness to put work above EVERYTHING else?

Now about the 99.9% of white males. NO set-asides. No appeal for firing or lack of promotion. Just try to go to the EEOC with a complaint about bias. They'd laugh you out of the room.

Your bias shows. Now imagine a workplace with say 300 white males, 450 white females (most of whom by the way believe the tripe you just spouted), throw in 100 Hispanics, 35 blacks, 4 disabled persons. Stir.

We haven't even touched orientation yet. Convince the 589 'oppressed' non-white males, that those who are gay are also oppressed. Now we have 689 oppressed to the 200 oppressors. Take a human resources department that in an effort to be good corporate citizens actively recruit for 'diversity'. It helps if over time the HR department is entirely staffed by diverse persons (NONE, really NONE are white straight males). When you are counting the 300 white males, splinter off the 100 gay men. Encourage gay men to "network" do not apply the no-spouse in the same department rule to them. Do not apply the no intimate relation with a subordinate rule either. Consistently allow gay males to be involved with the promotion of other gay males.

Eventually you can have a 65 percent female supervisors level, all females at manager, female director of division. she has exactly 3 layers above her to the top of the glass ceiling of a fortune 500 corporation (really Fortune 25). You cover all your 'racial' diversity with culls from the pool of women. You give the appearance of promoting men while still keeping those oppressive men away from the power that they of course will abuse, if you hire 35% gay men for the other supervisor positions. This is not a fictional example.

All entirely legal. Exceedingly common.

Daintre
10-02-2007, 09:21 PM
I find it amazing what a cup of coffee, a pair of boxers shorts and a sexy woman can do. Come on people it is a commercial that uses a sexy lady to sell their coffee....nothing more ...nothing less.

KateSpade83
10-02-2007, 09:31 PM
Isn't the woman in the commercial Lisa Ling? Watch out what people think about her in the future because of this commercial. I thought big double standard when I saw the commercial. But then in real life I saw women bitch at other women calling em gay or a dyke for wearing mens clothes even if it was only a shirt. I saw an old woman with 2 other women walk into a McDonalds and eat their while she was wearing a man's suit! Watched her with interest and noticed that people didn't even care! She didn't try to make her face look like a man's either!

For us MTF cdr's, we have to pass or be bitched at or laughed at! I'd never go out if I wasn't passable!

Diannna
10-02-2007, 10:26 PM
You know, when I was a lot younger, I used to think about the double standard thing also. It used to bother me some. It took a long, long time to accept me for who and what I am. I enjoy me now. As for the double standard thing ................... Well now,I know that MOST women don't wear some of their mans clothes to turn them on like we do. I'm sure it does turn them on, but in a way that they know that when she does put on her man's shirt, she knows that when her man see's her, he'll still see her as sexy and as a woman. No matter what she wears of her man's she is still percieved as a woman. Not trying to be a man. How ever, when we dawn her slip, it turns us on, not really to turn her on. After all, all we really are is a man with a slip on. Clearly not the same. Now I'm not saying that there aren't some of our women out there that don't get turned on by that, I'm just saying in general. A woman is a woman is a woman is a woman.

KateSpade83
10-02-2007, 10:37 PM
And a woman can be a lesbian and some people might think that's hot! But if a guy's gay there goes your social life unless it's all gay!

Diannna
10-02-2007, 10:47 PM
And a woman can be a lesbian and some people might think that's hot! But if a guy's gay there goes your social life unless it's all gay!

Now I can safely say that in this respect there seems to be a double standard.

Jamie001
10-02-2007, 10:58 PM
Ema,

You hit the red polished nail on the head! :yrtw: :iagree:

As Ema said, you have to GET OUT THERE and wear fem items and be proud of who and what you are! That mean wearing your fem items in front of family, friends, and acquaintences. Stop driving 50 miles to go to the mall so that someone that you know won't see you. The mall that is across the street is perfectly fine. Be proud of who you are! Wear those fem items in male mode. Get your ears pierces and proudly wear fem earrings along with a fem hairstyle and colored nail polish in male mode. Don't hide from anyone. This is the only way that we are going to make progress. It is called "pushing the envelope".... and most of all, "don't wait for other CDs to push the envelope and pave the road before you". Get out there an pave the road yourself instead of hiding in the closet and complaining. You are going to hit some potholes but that is what builds character and separates the big girls from the wanna-bee girls. You can make a difference! The key word here is *YOU*.

So what are you going to do in public and in front of your family and friends tomorrow? Think about:

1. Wearing fem clothing
2. Wearing fem earrings
3. Wearing fem cologne
4. Wearing red or pink nail polish on your fingers and/or exposed toes
5. Exposing your shaved legs proudly

At least do one of these things as part of your normal daily routine and you will be advancing the cause to eliminate the double-standard.

Any Questions?

:2c: Jamie



Perhaps consider this...

Is it really constructive to criticise other people for being able to wear whatever they want when you want to be able to wear whatever you want yourself. Doesn't this purely and simply come down to the fact that you perceive women as being able to wear both male and female clothes and are jealous because that is what you want to be able to do?

Instead of just talking about double standards and how unfair it is, why not get out there and start wearing women's clothes in public. It's really not all that long ago that it was shocking for a woman to be wearing trousers, it's amazing how times change but nothings going to change if you all sit at home and complain about it but then don't do anything to back it up!

Society isn't going to change of it's own accord, you need to make it happen. It's like most things in life, you have to work to make it happen and I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't be complaining about something unless you're prepared to do something about it!

For those of you who are pushing the boundaries, getting your ears pierced, wearing nail polish, etc etc I applaud you. It is you who are most likely to bring about any change in the acceptance of general society. If no one see's guys wearing female items then they are never given the chance to become used to it.



That's female pants love, male pants tend to be more roomy lol! :tongueout

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-02-2007, 11:10 PM
1. Wearing fem clothing.......wife bails
2. Wearing fem earrings.......wife bails
3. Wearing fem cologne.......wife bails
4. Wearing red or pink nail polish on your fingers and/or exposed toes.......wife bails
5. Exposing your shaved legs proudly........wait, I know this one............wife bails


Hey, I love my wife :love:

Jamie001
10-02-2007, 11:53 PM
I would not be able to tolerate this situation and I would bail because it would be obvious to me that I am not with the right woman. It is not good to suppress a very significant part of yourself and the result is always severe depression or physical stress related illnesses. I have learned this from years of therapy and almost losing my life. For me, it is not worth it. I am lucky that I have an understanding wife that I love very much because she accepts me as who I really am, instead of some image that she has created in her mind. Life is too short to suppress a very significant part of your being. I wish that I would have came-out 20 years ago.

:2c: Jamie



1. Wearing fem clothing.......wife bails
2. Wearing fem earrings.......wife bails
3. Wearing fem cologne.......wife bails
4. Wearing red or pink nail polish on your fingers and/or exposed toes.......wife bails
5. Exposing your shaved legs proudly........wait, I know this one............wife bails


Hey, I love my wife :love:

jaina
10-02-2007, 11:59 PM
1. Wearing fem clothing.......wife bails
2. Wearing fem earrings.......wife bails
3. Wearing fem cologne.......wife bails
4. Wearing red or pink nail polish on your fingers and/or exposed toes.......wife bails
5. Exposing your shaved legs proudly........wait, I know this one............wife bails


Hey, I love my wife :love:

I was in that situation until I realised that every day I spent in that relationship was one more day I couldn't look for someone that actually cared about me for who I was.

crusadergirl
10-03-2007, 12:50 AM
It don't matter if its a double standard are not to me. I have seen that commical before and i didn't really notice a girl wearing boxers till you said something about it. I don't spend my time complaining about that stuff its just a waste of time.
But i do see the point that was made here which so GG seemed to get mad over nothin about. Anytime you type something on here atlest one person will get mad about it and misunderstand what you are trying to say.
Women can wear what they want and no one seems to care but a man can't.
Without being noticed and being called a freak or being laughted at.The funny thing is a laugh at other cd's when there on TV i just think its funny and it cheers me up. It kinda sucks but really who cares it don't bother me what anybody wears.

Fab Karen
10-03-2007, 12:51 AM
Ema,

You hit the red polished nail on the head! :yrtw: :iagree:

As Ema said, you have to GET OUT THERE and wear fem items and be proud of who and what you are!

Any Questions?

:2c: Jamie
Do you practice what you preach? Some of us are out there in the world to various degrees.

noname
10-03-2007, 12:57 AM
Perhaps consider this...

Is it really constructive to criticise other people for being able to wear whatever they want when you want to be able to wear whatever you want yourself. Doesn't this purely and simply come down to the fact that you perceive women as being able to wear both male and female clothes and are jealous because that is what you want to be able to do?

I don't critize anyone for wearing anything, both sexes should be free to wear what they wish. Am I jealous? Yes. I would like the same privilage women have with fashion. Should I decided to wear boot cut slacks, open toed shoes or 3/4 length dress shirt, I feel I should be free of worry.


Instead of just talking about double standards and how unfair it is, why not get out there and start wearing women's clothes in public. It's really not all that long ago that it was shocking for a woman to be wearing trousers, it's amazing how times change but nothings going to change if you all sit at home and complain about it but then don't do anything to back it up!

I'm very open outside of work. I'm pretty certain at stores I go to on a regular basis I'm know as "that guy". For the most part I wear what ever I feel like. Currently I'm on the lookout for some dress shoes with heels that don't look overly girly so my jeans hem will hang and not bunch up at the ankle. I'm open and people do notice, but it's how stereo types are broken. But back to being jealous, I feel gender should not force people to wear certain clothes and take on a certain look that just isn't them. Especially so as gender is something we are born with and out of ones control. Should culture allow people to born with special privilages?



Society isn't going to change of it's own accord, you need to make it happen. It's like most things in life, you have to work to make it happen and I'm a firm believer that you shouldn't be complaining about something unless you're prepared to do something about it!

That is why I am :) I do wish we could get organzined in politics, I'd think this message board has enough people.


For those of you who are pushing the boundaries, getting your ears pierced, wearing nail polish, etc etc I applaud you. It is you who are most likely to bring about any change in the acceptance of general society. If no one see's guys wearing female items then they are never given the chance to become used to it.

Thanks : )

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 01:02 AM
Yes I do practice that I preach. Have you read any of my posts?



Do you practice what you preach? Some of us are out there in the world to various degrees.

Eugenie
10-03-2007, 01:08 AM
how do we expect people to understand us wearing women's underthings if we get silly abought them wearing men's undies.......????????...........

I'll say it one last time: that was not the point made in the initial post of this thread. No one questions the fact that women can wear what they want.

The point was that a commercial can air it on TV without any complaints, in a matter of fact style. If a commercial had portrayed in the same matter of fact fashion a men in a women style nightgown this would most likely have entailled the reaction of all conservative well thinking people.

It is not the fact that a woman wears pajamas that is in question, it is the fact that commercials would not do it exchanging the gender role and the apparel.

In most commercials where men dressed with women clothes are featured, it is to ridicule them or to be provocative, not as a matter of fact situation. The message being clearly exposed: X-dressing is not an acceptable behavior.

Again, I'm not saying that discriminatory commercials like those portraying negatively x-dressers don't happen to women images used in commercials. But I would fight equally such outragious portrayal of women as I fight outragious portrayal of x-dressers.

:hugs:
Eugenie

noname
10-03-2007, 01:16 AM
Anyone remember the old navy ( it was them or the gap ) commerical where the woman pulls the pants of a man to introduce the boyfriend cut pants? The commercial even said, they look better on you than they ever could on him.

Think about the many messages that it is saying.

1: Women can wear mens clothing
2: Taking a mans clothing to wear for yourself is ok.
3: Mens clothing looks good on you.
4: Men don't look in any clothes and are never attractive.

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 01:25 AM
This is very true. If fact, when I am at the nail salon getting my nails done every two weeks, I have read many articles in women's fashion magazines that describe how to incorporate men's fashion items into the otherwise feminine wardrobe. There are a lot of these so called "menswear" articles in these magazines. There are even Men's Shorts for Girls. I would like to see an advertisement in a man's magazine that states "Girls Knickers for Men". Not likely in my lifetime or your lifetime. This is a prime example of the double-standard.



Anyone remember the old navy ( it was them or the gap ) commerical where the woman pulls the pants of a man to introduce the boyfriend cut pants? The commercial even said, they look better on you than they ever could on him.

Think about the many messages that it is saying.

1: Women can wear mens clothing
2: Taking a mans clothing to wear for yourself is ok.
3: Mens clothing looks good on you.
4: Men don't look in any clothes and are never attractive.

noname
10-03-2007, 01:51 AM
There are even Men's Shorts for Girls. I would like to see an advertisement in a man's magazine that states "Girls Knickers for Men". Not likely in my lifetime or your lifetime. This is a prime example of the double-standard.

You know how they have boycut undwear? I wonder when we'll see an ad campain for girlfriend cut underwear, or girlcut jeans, "just like your girlfriends" Or my favorite, will Macys ever have a Womens wear for men on the front page of their mens section?

I've thought about doing a website that takes ads or screenshots from the web of this double standard and doing some mad photoshoping and change the genders. I would think this would be covered under freespeech under parody? Corps seems to be sue happy these days. On the flipside it seems like a lot of work.

My Lady Marsea
10-03-2007, 02:01 AM
You hit the red polished nail on the head!

As Ema said, you have to GET OUT THERE and wear fem items and be proud of who and what you are! That mean wearing your fem items in front of family, friends, and acquaintences. Stop driving 50 miles to go to the mall so that someone that you know won't see you. The mall that is across the street is perfectly fine. Be proud of who you are! Wear those fem items in male mode. Get your ears pierces and proudly wear fem earrings along with a fem hairstyle and colored nail polish in male mode. Don't hide from anyone. This is the only way that we are going to make progress. It is called "pushing the envelope".... and most of all, "don't wait for other CDs to push the envelope and pave the road before you". Get out there an pave the road yourself instead of hiding in the closet and complaining. You are going to hit some potholes but that is what builds character and separates the big girls from the wanna-bee girls. You can make a difference! The key word here is *YOU*.

So what are you going to do in public and in front of your family and friends tomorrow? Think about:

1. Wearing fem clothing
2. Wearing fem earrings
3. Wearing fem cologne
4. Wearing red or pink nail polish on your fingers and/or exposed toes
5. Exposing your shaved legs proudly

At least do one of these things as part of your normal daily routine and you will be advancing the cause to eliminate the double-standard.

Any Questions?

Jamie



1. Wearing fem clothing..EVERY DAY I DO THIS
2. Wearing fem earrings... OF COURSE, THE MORE DANGLY & LONGER THE BETTER
3. Wearing fem cologne..CLINQUE HAPPY (can't get much more fem)
4. Wearing red or pink nail polish on your fingers and/or exposed toes...SORRY, I"M INTO FRENCH MANICURE ON FINGERS AND TOES. BIG TOE CUSTOM PAINTED WITH STAR & DIAMONDS. ONE TOE RING EACH FOOT. OF COURSE EXPOSED..STRAPPY HEELS OR FLIP FLOPS, WHY PAY ALL THAT MONEY TO HIDE LOL?
5. Exposing your shaved legs proudly..ONLY WHEN WEARING SHORTS
6. GOT TO HAVE & CARRY A PURSE
7. GOT TO HAVE BOOBIES, IT GOES WITH THE DEAL
8. FULL MAKEUP NOT TOO OVERDONE
9. FULL COMPLEMENT OF NECKLACE, GIRL WATCH, RINGS (at least 2-3), WRIST BRACLETS (at least 4-5)

I'm doin' my best to promote LOL:D

Ema1234 GG
10-03-2007, 03:35 AM
Noname it wasn't aimed personally at you, it was just a generalised comment about this thread sparked by something you posted.

Dee Talbot
10-03-2007, 11:53 AM
You know how they have boycut undwear? I wonder when we'll see an ad campain for girlfriend cut underwear, or girlcut jeans, "just like your girlfriends" Or my favorite, will Macys ever have a Womens wear for men on the front page of their mens section?Don't ask me for specifics, because it's been a couple of years since my 17 year old son was into the "emo look". But back then, he wore girls jeans, and at some of the specialty shops at the mall you could purchase girl jeans marketed to emo boys. I never wanted to pay mall prices for pants, so we just went to Target and bought him plain old girl pants there. But, there are stores out there. Just go to the mall and look for the store where all of the employees have dyed black unwashed hair, black fingernail polish on, and low low low rise girl jeans. There is where you will find the girl cut boy clothes :D

Unless the styles have changed dramatically. I've seen Pete Wentz and I think these fashions still fly with the emo crowd.

Double standards, stereotypes, bias, discrimination. These all exist. Each and every one of us is impacted by them on a regular basis. Sometimes it is overt. Sometimes it is subtle. Sometimes we can shrug it off. Sometimes, it has a greater sting. But, as I have stated before, this is part of the fabric of life in our society. Does this make it right? No of course not. You may be surprised to find that you perpetrate some of these yourselves on others. There are very few of us who can claim to be 100% unbiased. Sorry to sound a little preachy, but the world isn't going to change in a day. It takes time. It takes effort. It takes sacrifice to change how the world percieves us all: men, women, gay, straight, green, black, purple, crossdresser, transman, religious, atheist, .......well, you get the picture. The only proven method of exacting change is to do something about it. No, it isn't always easy. There are countless martyrs to every form of injustice throughout time. I'm not suggesting that anyone throw themselves on a flaming pyre in the name of crossdressing. But, like these martyrs, you just have to go out and live your lives and fight for your rights.

I wish that I had been more willing to stand for my rights when I was young. I scored the 2nd highest ASVAB score in my state for a female EVER. (The highest was my cousin. It's a family thing). The Marines wanted me BAAAADDDDDD!!! I was ready to go. But, at the time (1986), I was told that I would be given a desk job. No combat for me. WTH??? I was offended that because of my female equipment, I was being denied choices that men were offered. It really made me angry. I didn't join the Marines. It wasn't even about the combat necessarily (although being told I would NOT be handling a weapon really really really got to me since I am a marksman). It was about being denied my choices. I just walked away. I would have been prouder of myself now, had I fought more then instead of just walking away. Boys who scored lower on the test than I did had more choices. That was a bunch of CRAP! Things have changed now, and I had no part in that change. How humiliating it is to me, to know that I did nothing to exact that change.

The point of the epic and rambling post is this: Change will come. Acceptance will come. It takes time and sacrifice. In the meantime.....throw on some panties, slap on some lipstick, put on a skirt and get out there! Or, be like me, and wait for others to earn the acceptance for you.

Dee

LoriFlores
10-03-2007, 12:16 PM
I'd say it's pretty much a certain that we are wearing them for comfort, male and "unisex" clothing as a general rule is a hell of a lot more comfortable than what is stereotypically perceived as female clothing.

I agree in some regards. However, I personally feel most comfortable in a mid length cotton skirt, flat sandals, and a nice comfortable top. This combination is most comfortable (when it looks pretty its an added bonus) and it is most definitely "female" cloths.

Dawn D.
10-03-2007, 12:17 PM
Very well put, Dee!





Dawn

CaptLex
10-03-2007, 01:14 PM
Sorry to sound a little preachy, but the world isn't going to change in a day. It takes time. It takes effort. It takes sacrifice to change how the world percieves us all: men, women, gay, straight, green, black, purple, crossdresser, transman, religious, atheist, .......well, you get the picture. The only proven method of exacting change is to do something about it. No, it isn't always easy. There are countless martyrs to every form of injustice throughout time. I'm not suggesting that anyone throw themselves on a flaming pyre in the name of crossdressing. But, like these martyrs, you just have to go out and live your lives and fight for your rights.
:clap:

Well said, Dee, but it's probably falling on deaf ears. Seems to me some people would rather whine and complain than try and change things. That's why these double-standard threads are so common . . . seriously, some people just need to get over it. :rolleyes:

Satrana
10-03-2007, 04:03 PM
In the meantime.....throw on some panties, slap on some lipstick, put on a skirt and get out there! Or, be like me, and wait for others to earn the acceptance for you.



Dee

With all due respect, you and other GGS are sending out mixed messages. We CDs are constantly being advised to just go out and wear what we want and fight for our rights. But at the same time most GGs (not all) are also the ones who request that their SOs do not go out in public en femme and fight for their rights. Since most CDs do have SOs who prohibit their partners making such public statements then exactly who is this "go out and fight for your rights" advice aimed at? Just single CDs and the few with really accepting SOs?

You are quite correct identifying that CDs need to be more proactive themselves but how can this be achieved if most SOs don't want their partner to be the one to be proactive?

Dee Talbot
10-03-2007, 05:10 PM
Dee

With all due respect, you and other GGS are sending out mixed messages. We CDs are constantly being advised to just go out and wear what we want and fight for our rights. But at the same time most GGs (not all) are also the ones who request that their SOs do not go out in public en femme and fight for their rights. Since most CDs do have SOs who prohibit their partners making such public statements then exactly who is this "go out and fight for your rights" advice aimed at? Just single CDs and the few with really accepting SOs?

You are quite correct identifying that CDs need to be more proactive themselves but how can this be achieved if most SOs don't want their partner to be the one to be proactive?

My SO gets no mixed messages from me, as she agrees with me on the compromises we have made regarding her dressing in public. She has and will continue to go out en femme. We simply prefer to keep that side from our children and neighbors for now.

I understand that there are some who for personal reasons can't fight the fight, and to say get out there is a bit simplistic. But, getting out there is the single way to make the change. There are the some who unfortunately will have to wait until others can pave the way for them. For those who can't fight the fight, I empathize. But, someone is going to have to do it for it to be done.

I have the right to vote now, because 100 years ago, brave women endured beatings, jail, force feedings and even death to earn me the right. As much as I treasure my right to vote, I don't know if I could have fought that fight. My SO wouldn't have supported me in that quest (I asked him just now). I would have either had to wait until other women earned that right for me or given up my marriage. I understand that this is the same dilemma that crossdressers face.

So, yes..the "go out and do it" is directed to those crossdressers who can. You are the only ones who can do it. I am not suggesting that any CD with an unaccepting wife leave his wife to make a statement. But, there really is no other way to gain the acceptance that CD's need, want, and IMO deserve. There is no magic spell that will change the world. It only comes with hard work.

As soon as my children are of an age to understand and fend for themselves, then (if it is what Barbara wants) you will find me on the front lines in public, defending the rights of crossdressers.

Again, let me state, I KNOW that "go out and do it" oversimplifies the issue. However, I also know that "go out and do it" is the one thing that will change societial bias.

Dee

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 05:49 PM
Dee,

Thanks again for this post. I wish that every GG in this forum was as rational, logical, and level-headed as you. Your posts always seem to reflect reality, at least for me Barbara is very lucky lady. :hugs:

Jamie


My SO gets no mixed messages from me, as she agrees with me on the compromises we have made regarding her dressing in public. She has and will continue to go out en femme. We simply prefer to keep that side from our children and neighbors for now.

I understand that there are some who for personal reasons can't fight the fight, and to say get out there is a bit simplistic. But, getting out there is the single way to make the change. There are the some who unfortunately will have to wait until others can pave the way for them. For those who can't fight the fight, I empathize. But, someone is going to have to do it for it to be done.

I have the right to vote now, because 100 years ago, brave women endured beatings, jail, force feedings and even death to earn me the right. As much as I treasure my right to vote, I don't know if I could have fought that fight. My SO wouldn't have supported me in that quest (I asked him just now). I would have either had to wait until other women earned that right for me or given up my marriage. I understand that this is the same dilemma that crossdressers face.

So, yes..the "go out and do it" is directed to those crossdressers who can. You are the only ones who can do it. I am not suggesting that any CD with an unaccepting wife leave his wife to make a statement. But, there really is no other way to gain the acceptance that CD's need, want, and IMO deserve. There is no magic spell that will change the world. It only comes with hard work.

As soon as my children are of an age to understand and fend for themselves, then (if it is what Barbara wants) you will find me on the front lines in public, defending the rights of crossdressers.

Again, let me state, I KNOW that "go out and do it" oversimplifies the issue. However, I also know that "go out and do it" is the one thing that will change societial bias.

Dee

angelfire
10-03-2007, 08:37 PM
Nothing good ever comes from these double standard threads. EVER.

Jamie001
10-03-2007, 08:46 PM
Maybe we have a "Double Standard" regarding "Double Standards" threads. :dh::rofl::hiding:



Nothing good ever comes from these double standard threads. EVER.

Dee Talbot
10-03-2007, 10:05 PM
Nothing good ever comes from these double standard threads. EVER.
Hey!!!! Speak for yourself!!!:hmph: I actually found this thread very interesting and enjoyed the "lively" discussion. :p I may not always agree with everything that everyone posts, but I enjoy the exchange of ideas. This one hasn't been as bad as it COULD have been.........

This is NOT to be construed as a challenge either!!!! :D

Dee

Carin's Wife GG
10-03-2007, 10:30 PM
You obviously have never been a white male. This is a TRULY naive statement. Those above the so called glass ceiling are less than 1/10 of one percent of the work force. These men (and yes they are almost always men) ALL have MBA's from Harvard or Yale, have family connections, born with money and work 70-100 hours a week at the complete sacrifice of their families. You know anyone in the secretarial pool with those qualifications, connections and willingness to put work above EVERYTHING else?

Now about the 99.9% of white males. NO set-asides. No appeal for firing or lack of promotion. Just try to go to the EEOC with a complaint about bias. They'd laugh you out of the room.

Your bias shows. Now imagine a workplace with say 300 white males, 450 white females (most of whom by the way believe the tripe you just spouted), throw in 100 Hispanics, 35 blacks, 4 disabled persons. Stir.

We haven't even touched orientation yet. Convince the 589 'oppressed' non-white males, that those who are gay are also oppressed. Now we have 689 oppressed to the 200 oppressors. Take a human resources department that in an effort to be good corporate citizens actively recruit for 'diversity'. It helps if over time the HR department is entirely staffed by diverse persons (NONE, really NONE are white straight males). When you are counting the 300 white males, splinter off the 100 gay men. Encourage gay men to "network" do not apply the no-spouse in the same department rule to them. Do not apply the no intimate relation with a subordinate rule either. Consistently allow gay males to be involved with the promotion of other gay males.

Eventually you can have a 65 percent female supervisors level, all females at manager, female director of division. she has exactly 3 layers above her to the top of the glass ceiling of a fortune 500 corporation (really Fortune 25). You cover all your 'racial' diversity with culls from the pool of women. You give the appearance of promoting men while still keeping those oppressive men away from the power that they of course will abuse, if you hire 35% gay men for the other supervisor positions. This is not a fictional example.

All entirely legal. Exceedingly common.


Nothing else.


Louise.

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-03-2007, 10:55 PM
After subtracting mitigating issues like gay or TS, women are less likely to be assaulted simply for wearing mens haircuts and clothing.

Companies more vigorously pursue gender appropriate grooming standards per dress codes, particularly in regards to hair on men. Courts subsequently rule against the men in almost all of these cases. Similar cases exist against women, but comparatively, are statistically insignificant.

Words like 'whining' etc. in this thread, obviously have intended negative connotations. Unfair, as in the majority of cases, the users are benefiting from gender appearance standards which was broken far before their birth in most cases.

And issues like male workplace dominance etc. , are a red herring in regard to the topic of 'gender presentation double standards'.

Kris
10-03-2007, 11:13 PM
. The womens lib movement, got respect and special treatment for women.

White, middle class men, have remained silent for the last 50 years, while society walks all over them and trashes their rights.


Special treatment for women? White society that standards are mostly made by men ( we do live in a patriarchal society) so who should you complain to?

Men make the rights and women do NOT get special treatment.

I can't believe I read this. I must be too tired.

Kris

Bridget Fitzgerald
10-03-2007, 11:16 PM
Womens lib had nothing to do with gender grooming and dressing standards. Bra burning etc. was a symbolic act. It was about equality in the workplace, salaries etc. equal treatment in courts, that sort of thing.

Different issue.

Satrana
10-04-2007, 03:25 AM
As soon as my children are of an age to understand and fend for themselves, then (if it is what Barbara wants) you will find me on the front lines in public, defending the rights of crossdressers.
You know that is probably much more important than you make imagine. It is a hard sell when CDs stand up alone and ask society to accept them as normal people. Society is likely to just laugh in our face. In contrast if CDs were to ask for acceptance with SOs standing by their sides the the message is quite different. The SOs presence helps to convince society that maybe we are normal after all.

This is one of the major differences between a CD movement and others like feminism, civil rights, gay movement etc. They did not have to walk alone whereas presently few CDs have SOs who are prepared to stand by their partners.

Give me an army of a few thousand "Dee's" and we could change society overnight.:D



Again, let me state, I KNOW that "go out and do it" oversimplifies the issue. However, I also know that "go out and do it" is the one thing that will change societal bias.
iI know that you knew:happy: just pointing it out to others because this tag line is frequently used but really is a gross oversimplification. It means more coming from you.:hugs:

battybattybats
10-04-2007, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Dee Talbot

As soon as my children are of an age to understand and fend for themselves, then (if it is what Barbara wants) you will find me on the front lines in public, defending the rights of crossdressers.

Good on you! You are a credit to human decency!


Womens lib had nothing to do with gender grooming and dressing standards. Bra burning etc. was a symbolic act. It was about equality in the workplace, salaries etc. equal treatment in courts, that sort of thing.

Different issue.

Hmm...
Tell that to the Suffragette women who campained for the right to wear pants in public. The ones who used to be arrested for public indecency if they did.

Some actual suffragette arguments in favour of shirt skirts, less layers of skirts, loose skirts and pants:

Long tight skirts restrict movement. This makes women dependant on men who may not be dependable. It limits travel, makes them more vulnerable if a horse or horse and carriage bolts towards them and makes fleeing a rapist or attacker impossible. The devices that are meant to allow women to ride bicycles while wearing skirts are impractical and sometimes dangerous making women unfairly dependant upon men for transport.

Practicality arguments, yes. But they were gender dressing standards. It was by not conforming to gender rules that was considered their crime. It was claimed they would allow women to dress like, look like and act men leading to the breakdown of families and the destruction of society.

The Suffragettes also had arguments for having short hair, minimal swimwear and mens style footwear. They called for these things at the same protests that they called for the vote, for employment and for education.

Remember Joan of Arc was burned at the stake for returning to wearing pants and cutting her hair short! Joan of Arc was executed for breaking gender rules. Joan of Arc was killed for being a FTM crossdresser.

Later womens rights heroes were arrested for public indecency for wearing pants, going without bonnets in public, swimming in practical swimwear... acting like men and wearing items of mens clothing.

The lesbians, transexuals and crossdressers of the womens rights movements have often been on the front lines and yet dropped like a hot potato as soon as those rights came within reach so those rights could be attained more easilly and be more accepted by the public at large.

You see it happen over and over again. The people on the fringe have the courage first, eventually a reasonable mass of more mainstream folk follow in their wake, advances are made, battles won and as soon as the goal gets within reach the fringe folk are left high and dry because they are too 'extreme' to be accepted. They are left in the prisons to rot or are left behind still without all they fought for and their contributions quickly forgotten by most of the people who now profit by their efforts.

You see it amongst the Suffragettes, you see it in the later Women's Lib, where lesbians and TG (not that it was called that then) were dropped for the sake of the vote and for the sake of employment rights. You see it now with ENDA where, despite the likelyhood that it was a drag queen, TS or CD who through the first defiant punch at Stonewall there are some ready to drop gender from the anti discrimination legislation (thankfully many do not support this) and I'm ashamed to say I've even seen it here where some have complained about the more 'extreme' elements harming the ease of others getting accepted by the mainstream. These aren't isolated examples.. there are many many more.

Kris
10-04-2007, 06:55 PM
Nothing else.


Louise.

Yeah......... big time.

Kris

BarbaraTalbot
10-04-2007, 07:20 PM
Yeah......... big time.

Kris

Yeah, ~chagrined~ in my defense the rant was delivered entirely en homme.

I feel so much better now...~reaches down and checks the waistband on her knickers!~ Yep all better.

What I should have added to my rant was that the idea that a blanket statement that women have it easy (which was what Louise was objecting to) was just as wrong. People of all genders, orientations, and heights, disabilities, races, attractiveness and so on are routinely discriminated by others who view them as different, threating, of less value or whatever. I should have quit with my original post which was on point and brilliant. I am tempted to delete or modify my post in embarrassment, but I leave it as a cautionary example to me. Stay on point, stay polite, listen to others with the benefit of the doubt for the inflection that cannot be conveyed easily by text.

Dee Talbot
10-04-2007, 07:27 PM
Ok, this is totally off-topic, and I hope that any moderators seeing this will forgive me..... :o

But now that Barb has officially apologized, I want to say one tiny thing in her defense. Several years ago, when we worked at the same major corporation together, she experienced some SERIOUS anti-male bias. I worked there too, and I saw it all happen. She was mistreated horribly and has never forgotten it. So, while I appreciate and feel the apology was warranted....I just wanted to sneak in a little explanation of why that is a sensitive issue. :happy:

Now, to get back to the topic.....

Anyone seen any good commercials lately? :devil:

Dee

Corinna E
10-04-2007, 07:38 PM
i dont think that in any given moment that anyone will just accept us and male to female crossdressing would be perfectly normal. however the way i look at it is every time we go out en femme. at least another handful of people are exposed to the world we live in. after a while im assuming it will become more and more common. Im at the point where i wake up in the morning and dont think twice. I throw on my fav. heels, usually a pair of cute jeans and a sweater and i head off to school. usually noone says anything and the people that do have a comment to make its usually positive. just keep on striving ladies. we are amazing individuals and dont need anyone to accept our double standard!!

battybattybats
10-04-2007, 09:32 PM
Ok, this is totally off-topic, and I hope that any moderators seeing this will forgive me..... :o

But now that Barb has officially apologized, I want to say one tiny thing in her defense. Several years ago, when we worked at the same major corporation together, she experienced some SERIOUS anti-male bias. I worked there too, and I saw it all happen. She was mistreated horribly and has never forgotten it. So, while I appreciate and feel the apology was warranted....I just wanted to sneak in a little explanation of why that is a sensitive issue. :happy:

I'm not sure that your post was off topic. I think that it is very important to note instances where men receive sexist bigotry. It is an important test of our comittment to equality that these events are treated as real and as offensive as the more common offences against women. I have seen dreadful ocassions where women have responded in vengeful glee when hearing about men being raped by women or sexually harrassed by women despite the fact that the men involved may have been decent unbiased men.


Now, to get back to the topic.....

Anyone seen any good commercials lately? :devil:

I've seen some mobile phone ads that have included drag queens in what seemed to me to be a respectful and positive way one of which was associated with the Australian Idol competition.

Carin's Wife GG
10-04-2007, 10:34 PM
in public!


Louise.

Kris
10-04-2007, 11:11 PM
Yeah, ~chagrined~ in my defense the rant was delivered entirely en homme.

I feel so much better now...~reaches down and checks the waistband on her knickers!~ Yep all better.

What I should have added to my rant was that the idea that a blanket statement that women have it easy (which was what Louise was objecting to) was just as wrong.

You know, STUFF happens. I wondered when I read it... WTF? This is unlike her...

So I do appreciate you seeing the goof and saying you made a mistake.

:hugs: Kris