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View Full Version : Are there Acceptable and Unacceptable practices for Crossdressers



Lovely Rita
10-08-2007, 07:16 AM
As I read through the many threads and see the diversity of our group I cannot help but wonder if there is also a kind of class distinction on some unconscious level.

Would love you to share your thoughts. I welcome contrasting points of view on this one.

Kate Simmons
10-08-2007, 08:28 AM
Hi Rita, I picked the last choice my friend. I would find myself the "pot" calling the "kettle" black if I felt any other way.;):happy:

Lovely Rita
10-08-2007, 08:41 AM
Hi Rita, I picked the last choice my friend. I would find myself the "pot" calling the "kettle" black if I felt any other way.;):happy:


I am with you Salandra, but I am curious as to how others may see things. We are such a wide and varied group. Many have their own views on things that could differ from ours.

I know that being a Crossdresser I have had to face adversity with regards to my life style. I believe society at large does not condone our behavoir of dressing as woman.

I cannot see myself looking at others with a judgmental eye.

On the matter of how crossdressers behave towards one another, I look to be accepting of everyone unless their behavoir is harmful towards others. In my opinion, our behavoir should be one of mutual respect and acceptance unless the behavoir of others is hurtful and harmful, in general.

The definition of harmful behavoir could be too long to define here, but if we just use common sense, which I am sorry to say is not that common, we should be alright with each other.

Different strokes for different folks, but it is always important to know that our behavoir of dressing as woman in the eyes of most of society is too often unacceptable.:hugs:

Chari
10-08-2007, 08:48 AM
Hi Rita, IMO, CDers should dress appropriate to their age and activity. I would never wear an evening gown to go grocery shopping, nor have I wore short skirts and a halter top to a garden party! Many have bad vibes of CDers as it is. Why give the misinformed more ammo! I try to "blend in" rather than stand out in the crowd.:2c:
Chari

Joy Carter
10-08-2007, 08:50 AM
Hi Rita

Not intending to be judgemental. But if we are to be accepted in society we must conduct/dress ourselves as a GG would. :2c:

Lovely Rita
10-08-2007, 08:52 AM
Hi Rita, IMO, CDers should dress appropriate to their age and activity. I would never wear an evening gown to go grocery shopping, nor have I wore short skirts and a halter top to a garden party! Many have bad vibes of CDers as it is. Why give the misinformed more ammo! I try to "blend in" rather than stand out in the crowd.:2c:
Chari


I guess I would agree that this would fall under the uncommon common sense:love


Hi Rita

Not intending to be judgemental. But if we are to be accepted in society we must conduct/dress ourselves as a GG would. :2c:

I appreciate your feedback:love:

Phyliss
10-08-2007, 09:08 AM
I would NOT begin to "judge" another. Having said that, I do find that some of the "actions" of some people to be a bit "over the mark".
Personally When I "go out dressed" I attempt to blend in and not draw any attention to myself. Always conduct myself in a proper and "ladylike" fashion. There are a number of people in my life that "know" and I do whatever I can to give them a good impression of myself.
Afterall I'm probably the only one they know and as such I represent all of us to them .

Lovely Rita
10-08-2007, 09:22 AM
I would NOT begin to "judge" another. Having said that, I do find that some of the "actions" of some people to be a bit "over the mark".
Personally When I "go out dressed" I attempt to blend in and not draw any attention to myself. Always conduct myself in a proper and "ladylike" fashion. There are a number of people in my life that "know" and I do whatever I can to give them a good impression of myself.
Afterall I'm probably the only one they know and as such I represent all of us to them .

I appreciate the feedback Phyliss. I think that everyone's opinion matters. I would venture to say that your view will probably be the one that the majority of crossdressers hold, but I could be wrong.

Kris
10-08-2007, 09:49 AM
I believe that if you want to fit in, then you will do what is appropriate in your minds eye.

I also know that I do things, dress, and act to be true to me and sometimes... well I had a streak of blue in my hair once. I dress to be comfortable. I wouldn't dare stand in judgment of someone else. However, if you want to blend in, don't be wearing stilettos and fishnet stockings to the grocery store.. So I don't want to hear any complaints about dirty looks if that is what you wear.

JMHO, I could be wrong.

:hugs: Kris

PS. Now my husband would say lets go out, and I would get all dressed up - thinking it was going to be an exciting night.. and he would take me to BINGO...... LMAO.. and I would certainly not fit in there. But I had no idea where we were going.

Amanda Shaft
10-08-2007, 10:12 AM
Good question Rita, I thought a little before I voted for the last choice: for as much as I see myself as being non judgemental I do believe if ‘we’ are ever going to be accepted by society at large we do need to blend in and not rankle ‘them’ further by outrageous dressing or behaviour. Does drawing attention to ourselves push our profile forward or set our acceptance back?
I need to think about this some more!
Luv it!
Amanda

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 10:19 AM
Hi Rita, I picked the last choice my friend. I would find myself the "pot" calling the "kettle" black if I felt any other way.;):happy:

:iagree:
As a libertarian there's only one correct answer as far as I'm concerned. Always strikes me as odd that a group of people who desperately want social acceptance are so keen to tell others in that group how to present themselves.

Marla S
10-08-2007, 10:29 AM
I voted #2 because:

1.) I couldn't care less what people do in privacy.

2.) I do care how people present in public.
Why ? Because we are a minority, a minority that wants acceptance.
Due to being a minority each member is responsible not to give the community an inappropriate or even bad image, because that doesn't help the community to gain acceptance.

Personally I get shivers each time when I see pics or posts that are sexually loaded. I do understand that there is a need to show and talk about it though, but I think it doesn't help the community because it enforces a major part of the prejudices we have to face.

"Anything goes" might be libertarian, but it's also illusionary.

AlanaBCD
10-08-2007, 10:42 AM
This is a complex issue. I personally voted #2.

Should it be okay for a GG to do anything they want? Should anyone be able to do anything they want? There are certain rules of society that have to be followed for there to not be chaos.

If you are dressed in public, I feel you should follow the natural rules of society. If you are dressed in private, there are different rules that apply. Many people have a problem with authority, thus having a problem with rules.

That is my :2c:

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 10:45 AM
Been thinking more about this.

The first two questions are pretty much the same thing - as are the last two. There may as well have been just two questions. The last question could've been rephrased "I don't care - anything goes in my book". The first question could've been rephrased "I don't care - so long as their attire meets my personal approval".

Sure, there will be some pics posted on sites like this that show a bit too much leg or a stocking top or whatever. But they are just that: pictures on a web site. I've done it myself - it doesn't mean I go my local Walmart or shopping mall dressed like that. It's just a bit of fun for a pic. You can apply the same to a club outing. You can push the boundaries there too because, let's face it, many GG's do too and the environment will accept it.

However, in real life every day situations, and in all my 39 years, I can't recall one single time where I've personally seen a CDer out in public dressed in such a way that's made me cringe or embarrassed.

We have to give people more credit than that. People have their own sense of boundaries and common sense - let them use it.

Nikki

Penny
10-08-2007, 10:52 AM
Well, I haven't posted in a long time because the same questions keep getting asked over and over and I believe I have pretty much had my say.
But your question, ok then!
Let me congigate it. "I am","You are", "We are" nuts that don't fit on the bolt.
Social acceptance is what? Shall we do drugs because everyone does? Fitting in is over rated. Accepting oneself is paramount. I fit me so let others fit themselves and live life to the fullest.

Huggs

Penny

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 10:53 AM
If you are dressed in public, I feel you should follow the natural rules of society.

"natural rules of society"????? So us CDer's shouldn't go out in public at all then?




Many people have a problem with authority, thus having a problem with rules.

I don't recall breaking any laws the last time I went out en femme. I have full respect for the law and authority. But I equally respect other people rights to do and dress how they like so long as they don't harm others or break the law too. Sound fair????

AlanaBCD
10-08-2007, 11:00 AM
"natural rules of society"????? So us CDer's shouldn't go out in public at all then?


What I meant by "natural rules of society" is dressed as if you are a GG



I don't recall breaking any laws the last time I went out en femme. I have full respect for the law and authority. But I equally respect other people rights to do and dress how they like so long as they don't harm others or break the law too. Sound fair????

I just feel we should not stand out and having a flashing sign above our heads that says... CROSSDRESSER HERE

I don't want to be controversial here. I was just expressing a viewpoint, nothing more and nothing less. Please don't take this as an attack on your feelings.:hugs:

Marla S
10-08-2007, 11:09 AM
I just feel we should not stand out and having a flashing sign above our heads that says... CROSSDRESSER HERE
We do stand out, that's why we are here. 99.9 % have the sign CROSSDRESSER HERE above our heads. The question of acceptance is what people do associate with this sign.
We are there if "CROSSDRSSER HERE" isn't worth mention anymore, because we got rid of the negative associations.

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 11:14 AM
What I meant by "natural rules of society" is dressed as if you are a GG

I just feel we should not stand out and having a flashing sign above our heads that says... CROSSDRESSER HERE

I don't want to be controversial here. I was just expressing a viewpoint, nothing more and nothing less. Please don't take this as an attack on your feelings.:hugs:

I don't see your words as an attack nor should you take mine as such... I'm just puzzled that another CDer would even feel this way. In fact, I find it mind boggling beyond the extreme, elitist and really quite hypercritical.

So, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that it is OK for CDers to go out in public so long as they dress "appropriately" and look 100% like a GG (this is also assuming said GG would dress "appropriately").

It's little wonder there are so many CDers who are scared to go out in public when there are even other CDers who have this attitude. I repeat my question? How many times have you been out in your every day life (not pics on a web site or a club) and seen a CDer at a mall or wherever that has made you cringe or embarrassed or whatever?

Sally24
10-08-2007, 11:34 AM
I try not to judge others, but......my personal oppinion is that crossdressers who are trying to appear as women, make a concerted effort to dress the part. Miniskirts and belly shirts don't go well with almost everybody. That doesn't mean that you can't wear them, just find the right venue. A dance club is pretty much wide open for appropriate dress. The mall, restaurants and such are not. I'm not telling anyone to dress this way or that, just what I have a preference for. You'll also get a friendlier reception if you like you belong where you are. You don't have to blend into invisiblity, just follow the styles that most everybody else does, then make them yours in some way.

jenniferj
10-08-2007, 11:50 AM
The question of inappropriate behavior is analagous to that of inappropriate speech - we are guaranteed the right to say anything we want, but generally agree in both principle and legislation that some things are best not said in public. The canonical example is yelling "Fire!!!" in a crowded movie theater. Where the line is crossed is a source of constant debate.

Besides truely harmful expressions, we again generally believe that there is speech that should be avoided because it is annoying or offensive - most people do not stand up and shout obsenities in church, and most of us whisper in libraries, if we speak at all. We don't yell down hotel hallways at 2:00AM. There has to be a balance between the personal enjoyment of an individual's life with the general annoyance of others that he might cause. This balance is far harder to define than the absolute taboo, but most of us agree that there is a line here also.

Crossdressing is really a form of expression and is subject to the same philosophies. Most of us agree that adults should not appear in public with their genitalia exposed - that is an example of an absolute taboo. Otherwise, you pretty much have the right to wear whatever you want. Whether it is wise or appropriate depends on your goal - remember that a great many historical heros have brought about much-needed change by publicly asserting things that were considered inappropriate at the time.

What do you want to do?

If you simply want to express the feminine urges that we seem to feel and enjoy life as a woman would, you should present yourself in a manner that is appropriate for any woman under those conditions - dress to blend in.

If you want to further the cause of universal acceptance for our kind, you should present yourself in a way that is non-threatening to the civilians (i.e. nicely and politely) while making no overt act to hide the fact of what you are. Let people see you and realize that you are very much like them, only a little better dressed.

If you want to make a heroic stand, dress outragiously - think of the GayPride events (I am not implying a link between crossdressing and homosexuality here; just pointing out the similarity of situation). I doubt that this will help our cause however.

And of course, you may just want to strike out and annoy people...

My personal choice would be to to dress as nicely (and appropriately) as I could and be invisible to 90% of the people. I expect that any one of the 10% of the people who notice me will read me immediately - but I hope that the conversations would be of the nature:

he: "You see that tall, moosey girl over there? I think she's a guy!"
she: "Yeah, I think you're right, but I love her shoes. Do you think my hair would look nice if I fixed it that way?"

-jj

Wendy me
10-08-2007, 12:00 PM
i went with # 4 live and let live ... some times i think we get over board on how we think every one should look act and think .... i mean if our ideas differ than some one else who's to say that our thoughts are right ???? they might be right for us ... but are they right for every one??? .................

Deborah Jane
10-08-2007, 12:11 PM
Dress how you feel happiest!! Personally if i went out, i would dress appropriatly for where i was going, be it the local store or clubbing! I wouldn,t tell others how to dress though...Live and let live!!

annekathleen
10-08-2007, 12:20 PM
What ever floats your boat!
What ever you feel comfortable doing as a cross dresser is your own business.
Whether it's staying home and never venturing outside.
Whether you venture out in public,
Whether you're passable, or not.
Whether you're straight, bi, or gay.....
To each...their own!

Chari
10-08-2007, 12:30 PM
Wondering how many of us have seen & immediately read another "special girl" when we were out and about. If we are read, it may be due to a flaw we failed to do or not do as a GG would. Ever watch how long a GG checks herself out in a mirror for any flaws? IMO even a "too perfect" image could be a give away sign. We may have seen many "special girls" in our travels and not read any of them. I just want to blend into the female world! :2c:
hugs, Chari

Michelle Hart
10-08-2007, 12:57 PM
This brings up an interesting thought.

With all the varied personalities and backgrounds we bring to the discussion how is it that we can be judgemental of others? Simple really. Human nature. Each of us do this for a host of reasons some stay in others go out..... a cheap thrill a nauty delight.

So what standard do we adheare to? Lady like? Manly? Somewhere in between? Do any of us really know why someone does what they do. I dress to impress, I carry myself as a lady and dress as a woman my age would. I guess you could say I work hard to perfect my craft. An actor on stage.

We have all seen bad actors in film and tv. We wince in agony at their attempt and lose faith in their film because of it. Does that make the actor a bad person, are they lazy, or just unskilled. It could be anything but it always shows. Think about photos you have seen. Somtimes the pose and look is perfect. The color is spot on. Yet you still see "a guy in a dress". why?

It's the little things. Unshaved arms, clothes that are to small, or any number of other things. It's just bad acting. I'm better than some and worse than others. Even I have days when I look less than perfect. However I know enough to never go on stage like that. If my heart is not in it....it shows.

I am constantly looking for ways to improve my craft. To learn the "right" way to do things before I go off on my own. I try to emulate those that have mastered the art of impersonation. It sadens me greatly when I see girls who have not gotten there or just don't want to.

Think about the last time you saw a girl who was perfect, You knew it was a man but everything about her said woman. Did you want to be her or were you jelous? Did you think to yourself.... I can do that or did you give up imediatly.

I always strive to be her and find out how she got where she is. I'm a perfectionist so I want my art to be perfect.......

Do you????

Rachaelb64
10-08-2007, 12:59 PM
:happy:Live and let live that my opinion

TxKimberly
10-08-2007, 01:34 PM
Of course there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior for CDs - just as there is for everyone else.

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 01:47 PM
Of course there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior for CDs - just as there is for everyone else.

True Kimberly... but do we have the right to dictate or judge how they should dress? Or should that be left to their own personal judgement?

There are some things I see in everyday life that make me cringe such as some guy that has his baggy shorts hanging down his thighs or someone that has 10 million piercings through their bottom lip. I may not personally like it or the look of it but I would be first in line to defend their right to do it. That's what liberty and personal freedom is all about.

Veronica 1
10-08-2007, 02:26 PM
I had to vote for #4. It is not our place to judge anyone elses style, taste, or appearance. If the individual wishes to portray a certain image, it is their right to do so. If they have the courage to go grocery shopping in a ball gown, so be it. On the other hand, we, as crossdressers, have already been placed into a negative vault by the rest of society and if we cannot go out and blend as a GG we hide in out closets and try to perfect our skills to enable us to go out. Some of us will never leave the sanctuary of our rooms, while others will explore the possibilities of venturing out into the world. Those that do get out have a responsiblity to present the most flattering aspect of crossdressing to the world at large in order for us, as a whole, to be accepted.

Joanne f
10-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Yes i would say that there is some sort of class distinction on here but weather it is unconscious or not i can not say, and as for the acceptable standards of dress i think you are on a no win no loose situation as you have to remember that it is men going out dressed in women's clothe`s, a wig and make up i expect we all could guess the answer you would get if you went up to most people and asked "am i acceptable.
Then there is the part about dressing so that you are not noticed or as you would say passed, well if this was the case then no one would know of Cd`s so it would never have to get to being acceptable as it will only be acceptable if people know what you are, but in the end most people know what is acceptable to others and the one`s that don`t , well i think they just make this word a more interesting and amusing place how boring it would be without them .




joanne

KimberlyS
10-08-2007, 03:10 PM
Basically the forth option for me. As long as it is kept within the public decency laws, I figure what ever works for them. Because hey I consider myself a guy in a skirt.

But that said, if we want to push for more society acceptance faster, it is best to keep things toned down some. Like keep the dripping sexy looks for home and the fetish clubs. People can relate to others better when you are closer to their idea of reality. That is why I tend to do a feminine male, or more like a masculine woman look. But hey if you like going out in 6in heels, red leather micro skirt, with sexy feminine top and 44DDD's hanging out, and you like the attention and you are getting out and interacting with the public, I will give you a thumbs up. IMHO, most interaction with the public is a step toward acceptance. Some is just more in society's face than others of us. But if they have the balls/in the proverbially sense, physical optional/ to do it, great for them. I have done my share of pushing the public, and a bit more than my wife was comfortable with.

Ruth
10-08-2007, 03:29 PM
You lumped together "unacceptable" and "inappropriate" in the same option. I think inappropriate is what a lot of us CDers fall into for various reasons but that is all about fitting in, or failing to. "Unacceptable" is a whole other classification and is where I have a problem with your little quiz.
If we dress inappropriately in a situation is that unacceptable? or could you cut us a bit of slack? Are you just as hard on the female half of the population?

RobertaFermina
10-08-2007, 03:51 PM
First of all, I haven't experienced CrossDressing is an Institution with a common Manifesto, Vision, Mission, and set of Values.

Not having that, what basis is there for judgment ?

As members of society, I can make judgments against prevailing mores, etc. That, however is oxymoronic - since Crossdressing falls against the "mores" of a large segment of the public.

If I want CrossDressing to become more valuable or acceptable within the prevailing mores of society, then I would want to campaign for behavor of CrossDressers to be acceptable in all ways.

It is not established that ALL CrossDressers want CrossDressing to be Socially Acceptable... so even those who did want acceptance held to prevailing moral and ethical standards....a segment would still exist (and I believe, does) that would not "play along".

And, it is a self-selected club...they don't have to.

So If I judge CrossDressers for their behavior...it is because I have personal and particular aims. Not very sound ground for a judgment.

One could "eliminate" or "isolate" all CrossDressers who prefer Rebellion to Acceptance....They are still our sisters.


As result, I am seeking to be Demure, and Judging others who do not want to be in order to convince folks that we are Acceptable.

In my judgment, the Universe saw fit to create us, and that makes us acceptable.

Judgment...meh! Can of Worms. Self Limiting, Hypocrisy-Inducing, Time-Waster.

:rose: Roberta :rose:

Kristen Kelly
10-08-2007, 04:25 PM
I try not to judge others, but......my personal oppinion is that crossdressers who are trying to appear as women, make a concerted effort to dress the part. Miniskirts and belly shirts don't go well with almost everybody. That doesn't mean that you can't wear them, just find the right venue. A dance club is pretty much wide open for appropriate dress. The mall, restaurants and such are not. I'm not telling anyone to dress this way or that, just what I have a preference for. You'll also get a friendlier reception if you like you belong where you are. You don't have to blend into invisiblity, just follow the styles that most everybody else does, then make them yours in some way.

You worded it very well, and I agree with almost exactly what you said. The more I have gotten out in the mainstream world the closer I dress to the GGs I will be around. It's easy to dress as you wish if you never go out, step out that front door and down Main Street and see how comfortable you are dressed in a micro mini and 5 inch stiletto heels, forgetting what others think of how your dressed.

BarbaraTalbot
10-08-2007, 04:30 PM
Unacceptable to me in my presence is different than unacceptable for say a CD in the UK or Alaska, miles from anyone I know

The Supreme Court said that Nazi's could march spouting their hatred. I shave my head. I would consciously avoid gatherings of Neo Nazi's for fear of being identified with them.

Same goes for a flamboyant crossdresser. If they find it validating, perfectly OK, but don't expect me to march holding the other side of a pride banner with you.

It's awkward enough handling my own self-acceptance. When I barely understand my own motivations, how on earth can I stand tall and defend someones urges I understand less?

Now I do disagree with those that say, don't do this or that because it puts us all in a bad light. People already assume any guy that wants to dress-up is a gay drag queen or a male escort. I am neither. SO if someone chooses to dress like one or the other (or if they are in fact one or the other), then that is fine for them. They are out there trying to gain acceptance for their brand of dressing. Their efforts don't help mine or vice versa. Yes it would be nice to have solidarity but we aren't all the same and to try to find a common uniform for the group just isn't gonna work.

Eugenie
10-08-2007, 04:41 PM
I answered "I believe Crossdressers should present themselves and dress appropriately"

In my mind I was thinking "I believe Crossdressers should present themselves and dress appropriately according to the circumstances"...

Indeed it is quite different to be dressed "appropriately" to go shopping in a supermarket or while being at home to seduce one's partner...

It is also "appropriate" dressing just to have fun in some extravagant clothes or on the contrary to be modest in our way to dress.

Then there is the style that each woman feels "appropriate" for her age and her features...

Just look around you at the way women dress nowadays and you will see various ways to dress appropriately for women. Some are more excentric, some ar more classical, some are just dressed casually.

Sometimes, there are women who, unvoluntarily attract the attention by a "strange" choice of clothes... That may be considered "inappropriate" by some crowds... It varies according to the local culture... Large cities tend to be far more tolerant than small towns... (That's why I feel more comfortable going out "en femme" in large cities...)

Note also that what looks appropriate on one woman at a certain time and in a certain place may look funny or down right ridiculous on another woman (or even on the same one) in another place and at another time...

:hugs:
Eugenie

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 04:58 PM
So what is "acceptable"? Is it socially acceptable for men to wear skirts and high heels? No. So what right does any other CDer have to decide where the line gets drawn on what is acceptable to other CDers???

What you're really saying is "acceptable to you". Well people have different comfort zones and different levels of acceptability. So the line becomes blurred. Which is why it's such a no-brainer to me. So long as it's not hurting anyone else or breaking any laws, people should be able to wear whatever they like. It is their personal responsibility (no one else's) and just plain common sense to dress appropriately for a particular venue. I wouldn't wear a business suit to the beach but if someone else wants to then that's their choice and I'll respect it. I just probably won't be playing volleyball with them.

sterling12
10-08-2007, 05:46 PM
Well, I WILL be judgemental about at least one activity that I have seen Sista's doing. I don't think it's appropriate to dress like teeny-bop ****, not out in public! And yes, I have seen some people do it.

The reason is because I am one of those people trying to get us some tolerance from the general public. EVERYTIME someone decides they want to be raunchy/****ty out in public, it sets us back.

People see this type of behavior, they get worried about their kids, they get personally offended, and it's just another voice added to the cacophony of screwballs who already would deny us basic rights, (If you doubt, see some of the arguments against The ENDA bill.)

Whether a CD has the right to appear in public any way they want, is another issue. The point is that it isn't winning us any friends! Whether "blending," will make things easier, is open to debate. I just know the other way is going to be completely counter-productive.

Peace and Love, Joanie

PS. Just for the record, if I caught my Daughter trying to dress the same way, I would also be offended by that.

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 06:02 PM
Well, I WILL be judgemental about at least one activity that I have seen Sista's doing. I don't think it's appropriate to dress like teeny-bop ****, not out in public! And yes, I have seen some people do it.

The reason is because I am one of those people trying to get us some tolerance from the general public. EVERYTIME someone decides they want to be raunchy/****ty out in public, it sets us back.

People see this type of behavior, they get worried about their kids, they get personally offended, and it's just another voice added to the cacophony of screwballs who already would deny us basic rights, (If you doubt, see some of the arguments against The ENDA bill.)

Whether a CD has the right to appear in public any way they want, is another issue. The point is that it isn't winning us any friends! Whether "blending," will make things easier, is open to debate. I just know the other way is going to be completely counter-productive.

Peace and Love, Joanie

PS. Just for the record, if I caught my Daughter trying to dress the same way, I would also be offended by that.

I understand the other side of this argument - I really do. However, there are plenty of people who have posted on this site who have openly stated that they know full well they don't pass as female and have no intention of doing so. They simply want to wear typically female clothing such as a dress, skirt or whatever - without a wig - perhaps without make up. From their posts they say they go out in public. Their posts are usually describing something that happened to them while dressed that way on that day.

What you're saying is that you think this is unacceptable. Yet you want society to accept you when you go out en femme. I understand your reasons and I respect your opinion. I just don't think it's right that someone from the same social group should tell these people to stop living their life how they want to because you feel it to be counter-productive. Whether it's counter-productive is open to argument (note 70 years ago women didn't wear pants - till a few women had the balls to stand up and do it in public) and, no, maybe I don't have the balls to be seen in public like that myself or with someone looking like that or invite them to tea but I still don't think I should have any right to tell them to stop.

Jodi
10-08-2007, 06:19 PM
I voted for #1, because I do see behaviors that I find repulsive. In a club or tranny bar, there are always those girls that drink way too much and begin acting with loud and obnoxious behavior. I find this kind of behavior obnoxious in men. Another behavior that I find repulsive is very bad table manners in a restaurant. I see this in men and I see this in cd's.

Manner of dress is up to the individual, but there are many girls that do not have a clue as to appropriate dress in different venues. Then they wonder why they are laughed at.

A cd may act and dress as they wish, but I do not have to be near them nor tolerate them. Therefore, I choose my cd friends carefully.

I spend 90% of my out and about time at straight venues. When I go to these venues with other cd's, I choose to be with those that know how to dress and act the part.

Jodi

sissystephanie
10-08-2007, 06:19 PM
Hi Rita, IMO, CDers should dress appropriate to their age and activity. I would never wear an evening gown to go grocery shopping, nor have I wore short skirts and a halter top to a garden party! Many have bad vibes of CDers as it is. Why give the misinformed more ammo! I try to "blend in" rather than stand out in the crowd.:2c:
Chari

I totally agree with Chari! CD's who dress, or act, inappropriately give all of us a bad name. That is something we do not need, or want! Blending in is the right attitude.

Sissy/Stephanie

More girl than man sometimes

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 06:51 PM
I voted for #1, because I do see behaviors that I find repulsive. In a club or tranny bar, there are always those girls that drink way too much and begin acting with loud and obnoxious behavior. I find this kind of behavior obnoxious in men. Another behavior that I find repulsive is very bad table manners in a restaurant. I see this in men and I see this in cd's.

Manner of dress is up to the individual, but there are many girls that do not have a clue as to appropriate dress in different venues. Then they wonder why they are laughed at.

A cd may act and dress as they wish, but I do not have to be near them nor tolerate them. Therefore, I choose my cd friends carefully.

I spend 90% of my out and about time at straight venues. When I go to these venues with other cd's, I choose to be with those that know how to dress and act the part.

Jodi

It's funny, I got into the same argument with a "freedom loving" neo-con biggot recently. He had seen a CDer at a restaurant. Apparently the CDer had good manners and passed reasonably well. Not drunk or anything. The problem he had was the fact that this person was simply a CDer. In other words, he hates *all* CDers and thinks they're all "freaks". Of course I had to pass on the same message of personal freedom to him too until he got it.

Curious how everyone draws their line in a different place - so long as it conveniently suits them and their own "thing".

Keely
10-08-2007, 07:04 PM
I voted for 4 but 3 is the same. That said there is a place and time for everything. I'm pretty tolerant of people as long as they don't throw it up in my face.

Rachelhouston
10-08-2007, 07:20 PM
I understand the argument that that CDs dressing inappropriately in public sends the wrong message because I hear this same thing from my gay brother. He and his husband have been together for over 10 years and they think that gay pride parades are embarassing and reinforce negative stereotypes about gay men. They are both fairly conservative (in dress and carriage, not politically) and lament that the general public bases their perception of gay men on these wild displays of sexuality; as if all gay men are constantly either having sex or looking for sex.

There is some truth to that, but you can't let yourself believe that anybody else truly speaks for you. If you are inclined to go out and try to look "proper" (I won't even touch that here) then that is how you will be, or at least try, to be perceived. The same thing goes for the CD that goes out in fishnets, platforms and a miniskirt.

I usually argue with my brother that gay men are much more accepted today than they were 30 years ago and that the gay pride parades almost definitely played a part in that. It let closeted gay men know that they weren't alone. Sure, they have a long way to go, but they're headed in the right direction.

Maybe some teen who secretly wears his sister's will see an "obvious" CD and realize that he isn't alone either.

Rachel

jaina
10-08-2007, 07:37 PM
Of course there is acceptable and unacceptable behavior for CDs - just as there is for everyone else.

That pretty much sums it up.
There is no free ride as behavior goes. An adult knows how to act in public, act like one.

nikki_t
10-08-2007, 07:58 PM
That pretty much sums it up.
There is no free ride as behavior goes. An adult knows how to act in public, act like one.

You're right, adults should behave like adults. But we should not treat other adults like children by telling them how they should look or act in public unless they break a law or harm someone else.

Is it OK for you to tell another CDer how to dress but then for you to get upset when a non-CDer tells you you're dressing is inappropriate???

Angie G
10-08-2007, 08:04 PM
How ever one dresses one should try not to give a bad name to dressing :hugs:
Angie

docrobbysherry
10-08-2007, 08:14 PM
I think you need to add two more choices:

5. I don't know enough about CD's to pick one.
6. CD's r people. The rules for them should be the same as for everyone.

I vote both of these!

sterling12
10-08-2007, 10:40 PM
I understand the other side of this argument - I really do. However, there are plenty of people who have posted on this site who have openly stated that they know full well they don't pass as female and have no intention of doing so. They simply want to wear typically female clothing such as a dress, skirt or whatever - without a wig - perhaps without make up. From their posts they say they go out in public. Their posts are usually describing something that happened to them while dressed that way on that day.

What you're saying is that you think this is unacceptable. Yet you want society to accept you when you go out en femme. I understand your reasons and I respect your opinion. I just don't think it's right that someone from the same social group should tell these people to stop living their life how they want to because you feel it to be counter-productive. Whether it's counter-productive is open to argument (note 70 years ago women didn't wear pants - till a few women had the balls to stand up and do it in public) and, no, maybe I don't have the balls to be seen in public like that myself or with someone looking like that or invite them to tea but I still don't think I should have any right to tell them to stop.

Whoops! No, I didn't say that. I said I had a problem with some Sista's who present in public in a raunchy/risque manner. And I think we all know what I'm talking about. Someone's skirt being an inch too short, or not wearing makeup is not a concern.

The public doesn't like to see people that dress like Streetwalkers, they rightfully assume that CD's are just like the other "ladies of the evening." So when they think all of us are gay and looking to turn tricks in the parking lot, don't be surprized if they make that assumption based upon the way that SOME people want to present. I get ticked because the rest of us are trying to find a little freedom.

I go out with people all the time who don't "pass." All of us get read all the time. In fact, I rather enjoy the curious questions from people. It gives a chance to do a little PR, and hopefully further the cause.

The original question is "what is unacceptable/what is acceptable." I chose to stir things up a bit with a pet peeve of mine. I can't control anyone's thinking, except my own! I still think it's a poor idea for people to present in public dressing like a ****. If, I make somebody think and perhaps modify their thinking a little bit. I did my duty!

Peace and Love, Joanie

battybattybats
10-09-2007, 12:32 AM
Anything ethical is fine, unethical is not fine. Same as for the rest of humanity.

ColleenShivas
10-09-2007, 01:12 AM
Who among us has the right to express judgment on what other other people do? When I see a GG "tarted up" I may have a good look, then shrug and let her be who she wants to be. Same with a CD.

If we are going to be accepted, we have to live the idea that everyone is different.:2c:

My Lady Marsea
10-09-2007, 01:38 AM
I picked #4. I dress for me and try to blend in but still have a little of my flash and trash going 'cause that's who I am, that's why I do this...to be me. I try to act girly and be accepted because I think that's all that most of us want, acceptance. To go to the extreme ends of that acceptance is an individual choice but will probably not help our cause here.:2c:

crusadergirl
10-09-2007, 02:08 AM
I agree with what Nikki had to say on this subject. To say other cds are giving us a bad name is a load of you know what. It don't bother me one bit what others do.Do crossdressers have the right to go out in publix dressed really i don't know, but if they feel its right for them then go ahead and do it. Helping other cds is something you should be doing, giving them tips on what they could wear. I hear this alot you should dress like how the gg's do don't stand out. Don't gg's stand out in what the wear sometimes? Blend in thats not so easy not everybody has to the time and money to spend on everything that a gg would have. Just like GG's have to right to wear what they want so do cds.
But for me i like to stand out sorry its just the way i am, i have to be real to myself.

Marianna Julianna
10-09-2007, 02:21 AM
I voted last because I do not want to judge others, however I would always encourage others as much as possible to present as much like everyday women as possible, but just because that's what I believe in doing myself.

Khriss
10-09-2007, 02:27 AM
long since certain "Givens" in my life .. I'd rather stand fast and .emulate my true respect for women ?? as far as that goes ..understanding wize !
put up with the greif at times ...

switcheralso
10-09-2007, 06:04 AM
No, I do not judge other people...I would not throw the first stone...Nor would I throw anystone...

Shelly Preston
10-09-2007, 06:14 AM
I did not vote on this because i feel it would be unfair

YES some behaviour is unnacceptable


its not usually the crossdressing aspect of the behaviour that causes concern

Most media will exaggerate the crossdressing aspect if someone is involved in unnacceptable behaviour


That is why we have a lot of difficulties :(

erickka
10-09-2007, 06:24 AM
I also picked #2. I feel that if we (crossdressers) are ever going to gain any sort of acceptance in our generally narrow minded society, we should not dress/act as to make fun of women, but more along the lines of portaying/understanding the wonderful beings that they are. I have seen many posts here on this forum, that eminate that statement. If you dress and act as a mainstream GG, you generally are treated as one. Anyhow, that's just my:2c:. Have a wonderful day, Y'all!

Cassy11
10-09-2007, 10:00 AM
I try not to judge, but when the actions of one reflect back on the CD community as a whole it makes it tough. If one person in uniform (Army, Navy, Police, or Fire Dept) does something wrong or foolish it reflects back on and makes it hard onthe entire group. I guess a person who is out dressed kind of represents the CD community in the eyes of those around her.

AlanaBCD
10-09-2007, 10:09 AM
I try not to judge others, but......my personal oppinion is that crossdressers who are trying to appear as women, make a concerted effort to dress the part. Miniskirts and belly shirts don't go well with almost everybody. That doesn't mean that you can't wear them, just find the right venue. A dance club is pretty much wide open for appropriate dress. The mall, restaurants and such are not. I'm not telling anyone to dress this way or that, just what I have a preference for. You'll also get a friendlier reception if you like you belong where you are. You don't have to blend into invisiblity, just follow the styles that most everybody else does, then make them yours in some way.

Thank you Sally for saying what I was trying to say

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 10:16 AM
It's human nature - get over it. The same applies to GGs and GMs and any other social group you can think of. Treat adults like adults and let them make their own decisions - don't try to decide for them or put them down.

In my book people should be able to wear whatever they want whenever they want so long as they don't break any laws or harm anyone else. This applies to GGs and GMs as well as other CDers. That doesn't mean I like to see it or even do it myself - it means I value personal freedom over all else - including other people's narrow minded opinions.

There are plenty of people who read these forums. Some are members. Some are lurkers. Many of those people would never dare go out in public. Trying to dictate to them on here what you think they should be wearing is not helping them or their confidence. This site is supposed to be here for support for *all* CDers.

Marla S
10-09-2007, 10:43 AM
It's human nature - get over it. The same applies to GGs and GMs and any other social group you can think of. Treat adults like adults and let them make their own decisions - don't try to decide for them or put them down.

In my book people should be able to wear whatever they want whenever they want so long as they don't break any laws or harm anyone else. This applies to GGs and GMs as well as other CDers. That doesn't mean I like to see it or even do it myself - it means I value personal freedom over all else - including other people's narrow minded opinions.

There are plenty of people who read these forums. Some are members. Some are lurkers. Many of those people would never dare go out in public. Trying to dictate to them on here what you think they should be wearing is not helping them or their confidence. This site is supposed to be here for support for *all* CDers.
nikki, I think you confuse two aspects.

1.) Personal freedom to wear whatever they want.
I subscribe to that.

2.) ... so long as they don't break any laws or harm anyone else.

I subscribe to that too, but not harming anyone else is THE point.
I am of the opinion that inappropriate CD behavior (however defined) harms the TG community or family and each individual within this family.

An extreme example.
A while ago there has been a news article about a guy sitting in a library masturbating.
Heck, is it my problem ? No. I haven't been there, not even my country.
But it became "my" problem as a trans person reading the headline of the article
"Transvestite masturbating in library" (or something like this).
The focus isn't the explicit sexual act in public anymore, which is the inappropriate behavior (and breaks the law), but Transvestite ... that is harming IMO.

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 11:42 AM
Marla, I meant physically harm. What you're saying can be applied to almost anything of any subject matter and that thinking is the exact reason we end up with nanny states and the ban-this-ban-that brigade.

For example, using your logic, had the guy not been a transvestite (whether he was or not you don't make clear) but instead been a pizza delivery boy, I'm sure all other pizza delivery boys would've been a little embarrassed to read that article. But life goes on. People masturbate. People eat pizzas. Some guys like to wear dresses. Now, if it had been a pizza delivery boy masturbating into someone's pizza (which, if I recall correctly, has actually happened!!) then that would definitely be harming someone (as well as breaking the law). :eek:

Christina Horton
10-09-2007, 12:02 PM
I think cross-dressers should dress right.not that I am telling anyone how to live there lives,but I would like to see more dressers be fully dressed up. If u girls out there don't want to dress fully that fine,but it would be nice ot see all dressers to happy with going out,and not being teazed behind there backs.But to each her own.I am a girl who Loves to were gown and is very FEM when I dress,so that me two cents.Hugs to all, and beeee safe out there.

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 12:10 PM
I think cross-dressers should dress right.not that I am telling anyone how to live there lives,but I would like to see more dressers be fully dressed up.

A contradiction in terms???

Marla S
10-09-2007, 12:17 PM
Marla, I meant physically harm. What you're saying can be applied to almost anything of any subject matter and that thinking is the exact reason we end up with nanny states and the ban-this-ban-that brigade.
Well, mocking, most insults, discrimination in general, cheating on one's partner, etc. are no physical harms. Nevertheless I think it's not acceptable and harming to the person concerned.
But you are right with "almost anything" and "any subject matter". That's life, full of gray shades. But if people can't deal with gray shades, we get laws to make it black and white (otherwise it is not justiciable) aka, banning this and that, because some think anything goes until a law tells them it doesn't.
If people would be adult and would use common sense once in a while we wouldn't need nanny states.


For example, using your logic, had the guy not been a transvestite (whether he was or not you don't make clear) but instead been a pizza delivery boy, I'm sure all other pizza delivery boys would've been a little embarrassed to read that article. Maybe. Difference is that the headline most likely wouldn't have been "Pizza Boy Masturbating ..." but "Masturbation in Library" if there would have been a story at all.

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 12:28 PM
I know what you're saying Marla and I understand it. It's like the soccer hooligans ruining things for the good law-abiding soccer fans right? Negative stuff certainly tars everyone with the same brush.

But does that give you or me or anyone else the right to tell other CDers they should dress to our approval? Especially in a public forum where there are plenty of CDers who are already worried about going out in public because of what the general public might think - let alone other CDers?

If you feel it is "harming" to the CD community, do you think there should be a law, written in black and white, telling all CDers what is appropriate dress and what isn't?

I, personally, would like to let adults decide for themselves what is appropriate because they are just that: an adult - I'm not going to tell them on their behalf.

MsJanessa
10-09-2007, 12:34 PM
I voted for number 4 but having done that the same rules that apply to everybody else also apply to us---we can't misbehave and expect to get a pass on it because we are T-Girls. And sometimes we do---about 3 years ago I was in a nightclub when one of the TGs there lifted her skirt and exposed all her "equipment"---obviously that kind of behavior gives the rest of us a bad name---the only excuse she had was she was drunk(and that's no excuse)---fortunatly enough people in the bar made fun of her(size etc) so that she never did it again.

Kate Simmons
10-09-2007, 12:55 PM
This is one of the very reasons I left my TG Org years ago. People trying to tell others what to do. A lady does this, a lady doesn't do that. A lady wears this, a lady doesn't wear that, ad nauseum. Not to mention the TG "hierarchy"crap. I was spinning my wheels and getting no where fast, so went out on my own and was free to express myself my way. Maybe the way some folks dress is not my personal cup of tea, hell one gal would not come to the meetings unless she was wearing a party dress every time but I wasn't going to tell her it was inappropriate--no way because her pure joy of being there with her friends told the story. I could care less if someone dressed as Bo-Peep, at least they have the guts to be there.
There are also CD's who I would never invite into my home or associate with in public because of how they act or dress but that is their expression, not mine. Who is to say who is right or wrong anyway? You simply do not make any kind of progress by substituting one set of "rules" for another. You can only do that by having respect and tolerance for others. Anything grossly unacceptable to society will be handled by the proper authorities.:happy:

Marla S
10-09-2007, 12:58 PM
But does that give you or me or anyone else the right to tell other CDers they should dress to our approval? Especially in a public forum where there are plenty of CDers who are already worried about going out in public because of what the general public might think - let alone other CDers?
It's not my duty to tell others what style to wear.
But I think it is not wrong to say: Do us all a favor use your common sense and dress appropriate for the occasion and the persons you'll meet.
It could be inappropriate to wear casual for a fetish-convention, but it also could be inappropriate to wear an over-erotic style for the mall.
Maybe, don't wear your street clothes in bed.


If you feel it is "harming" to the CD community, do you think there should be a law, written in black and white, telling all CDers what is appropriate dress and what isn't?
There is a law "Common Sense" which is sometimes switched off when you are in a rush.
Other than that it doesn't need a law.
(To make it clear all this is not a question of passing or not. Passing is not necessary to dress or behave appropriate. And it is not a question of blending in or not)


I, personally, would like to let adults decide for themselves what is appropriate because they are just that: an adult - I'm not going to tell them on their behalf.
I agree, but because a lot adults are usually not so adult it could end up in ban-this-and-that.
Because this is the mechanism how we get this laws.
First step: We have a few concerns. We don't want to touch your freedom, but please try to respect our concerns. ---> Of course, of course.
Doesn't work.
Second step: Nobody seems to care. Please. ---> Ok, ok, we make a voluntary self-commitment.
Doesn't work.
Third step: Still a lot don't care. I think we need to ban-this-and-that.

That's a mechanism you can even follow here at the forum.
I. e. closing the lingerie photo section and the political discussion section followed exactly this line.

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 01:27 PM
There are also CD's who I would never invite into my home or associate with in public because of how they act or dress but that is their expression, not mine. Who is to say who is right or wrong anyway? You simply do not make any kind of progress by substituting one set of "rules" for another. You can only do that by having respect and tolerance for others. Anything grossly unacceptable to society will be handled by the proper authorities.:happy:

The word "tolerance" is key here. If only people were more tolerant right? It's bad enough society as a whole barely tolerates any CDers but when you get a few "elitist" CDers who are intolerant of other CDers then things are looking bleak indeed.

Like Salandra, I may not go out dressed like bo-peep either but if I was out and saw a CDer dressed as such being taunted or mocked by a biggot I would be first in line to defend them. Standing up for your rights is the only way to gain/keep them. It happened with the civil rights movement in the 60's and the gay movement of the 80's. Hiding behind words like "shame" or "embarrassment" and trying to tell others how to dress or live their lives won't get you anywhere.




There is a law "Common Sense" which is sometimes switched off when you are in a rush.
Other than that it doesn't need a law.
(To make it clear all this is not a question of passing or not. Passing is not necessary to dress or behave appropriate.)

Marla, it seems we're almost on the same wavelength on this but no matter which way you chop and dice it you're still trying to tell others how to dress because you're scared of how others might judge you and all other CDers as whole. I understand it, I just don't agree with it because the question then becomes where do we draw the line on this? What is acceptable and what isn't? Who decides? Everyone is different. So IMO you let people decide where that line is for themselves. In other words, allow them to use their own common sense and learn from their own experiences. I guess we will just have to agree to differ on that.

Prior to my last Vegas trip I was reading up on some web sites about the local TG venues. One person who had created one of these sites said something like "don't embarrass the CD community: dress classy to the clubs". Well, I'm sorry but if I'm going clubbing in Vegas it's black leather boots and a short skirt for me. It's my decision - no body else's. :banana:

Sam-antha
10-09-2007, 01:28 PM
I could never say an answer as well as Marla has.
But, that is part of my reply, the remainder being to welcome advice although not necessarily accepting/believing it, other than in the good sense in which it was intended.
~Samm

Jill
10-09-2007, 03:39 PM
I haven't read all the replies posted here on this topic but I am rather opinionated about this. Sorry if I repeat a lot of what other people have said and sorry if this is redundant.

I honestly didn't like how the poll was arranged, the forth option made the first option look "judgemental" towards other people. Just because I don't approve of certain behaviors doesn't mean that I am judgemental. I think there is a lot of bad behavior out there shown by others like me that makes it difficult for me to gain acceptance from those in my life. The crossdressers that are getting the most attention out there seem to be getting negative attention. I feel uncomfortable about CDers discussing their use of feminine hygiene products or when CDers post pictures on the internet that feature their hairy junk in female underwear. If people I am trying to gain acceptance with people who have seen things like that, they are going to lump me in that category and if those things make them uncormfortable, it's going to make things more complicated for me. I guess I just feel like CDers who engage in questionable behaviors can make us look bad in general.

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 05:47 PM
I honestly didn't like how the poll was arranged, the forth option made the first option look "judgemental" towards other people.

I agree the questions could've been a bit clearer (no offense Rita) though I don't see how questions 1 and 2 cannot be considered being "judgemental" of other CDers.

Either we trust other CDers to dress/act appropriately or we don't trust them. I personally trust them to use their own judgement and common sense until they give me a reason to not trust them - so I'm not going to tell another CDer how to live their life when I've never even met them.

Who's going to put on the fashion police badge and draw the line? It's funny how there are CDers who are happy to have this line moved... but only to the point where it encompasses their personal level of comfort/embarrassment.

Marla S
10-09-2007, 06:03 PM
Either we trust other CDers to dress/act appropriately or we don't trust them. I personally trust them to use their own judgement and common sense until they give me a reason to not trust them - so I'm not going to tell another CDer how to live their life when I've never even met them.


Actually this view honors you, and I am willing to follow you

BUT i.e. this forum would be a different one, if it wouldn't be heavily moderated and wouldn't have strict rules concerning pic posts and subjects being discussed.

There was a bit more freedom in the past, but obviously one couldn't trust on the common sense.

Only a few, but those few had the "power" to induce changes that effect all of us here.
IMO it's not very different in real life.

CharleneCD
10-09-2007, 07:09 PM
I went with #2. But that is only my opinion, and we know the saying on opinions. Ultimately I treat it like my wife and I treated our daughter when she was doing drugs. We loved her but just not her choices in life. Unlike her though I will not say anything about others choices here. Its just not my place to do so. Well Cheating on a spouse will get a comment.

Kris
10-09-2007, 07:25 PM
I hear this alot you should dress like how the gg's do don't stand out. Don't gg's stand out in what the wear sometimes? Just like GG's have to right to wear what they want so do cds.
But for me i like to stand out sorry its just the way i am, i have to be real to myself.


I also agree with Nikki. I know that I may get some dirty looks if I am dressed like a psycho **** from hell, but sometimes I do it. I would do it with my husband, and he loved it, but he was a dork and wouldn't take me to inappropriate places in my outfit, ie BINGO (DUH)! But I went, and held my head proud. I ignored the nasty comments by the ladies there who assumed I was a prostitute..

No fashion police came to get me. There should be no fashion police. I can wear WHITE SHOES after LABOR DAY....... I can wear a WHITE COAT whenever I want.....maybe that is the only coat I own?? But women still get dirty looks if they wear white.

My dang purse is my tool, not a piece of fashion to me. I could careless about if it matches my outfit or not. Now I know that some of you as GASPING for air at the thought of not having a purse that matches. I am a GG....... I don't give a damn. It carries the things that I NEED to have with me.

Anyway, I understand how it is sad to see someone who you feel is devaluing your cause. I also know that the first women who wore pants were called dykes and other things when they started - and not just by men... other women did it too. Eventually it changed. Lets all try to be patient with each other, and with society as it slowly changes.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

:hugs: Kris

Sophie_C
10-09-2007, 07:29 PM
I went with #2, also.

In order to get respect, it has to be given.

If girls want acceptance, they need to learn to dress and act appropriately, like their age, in all situations.

Everything else makes the community look like freaks and damages the future of it.

Since when did wearing a skirt give a person a license to stop being a sensible, reasonable adult?

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 08:12 PM
Actually this view honors you, and I am willing to follow you

BUT i.e. this forum would be a different one, if it wouldn't be heavily moderated and wouldn't have strict rules concerning pic posts and subjects being discussed.

There was a bit more freedom in the past, but obviously one couldn't trust on the common sense.

Only a few, but those few had the "power" to induce changes that effect all of us here.
IMO it's not very different in real life.

You are correct - not everyone has common sense. The difference is in giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The changes to the forum are slightly different though. The benefit of the doubt was given (as it should have been) but it was abused by some people crossing the line and parts were closed. In the case of CDers out in public, it's not so easy as getting a moderator to flick a switch and make everyone behave accordingly. Nor is it easy to draw an exact line - because everyone is different and has different dispositions.

Like someone pointed out before... if a CDer goes to a nightclub and flashes their cheesy bits at everyone, it is inappropriate - in that case it was dealt with by peer pressure and she apparently hasn't done it again. But for us to assume that all CDers are potential flashers before we even meet them is tarring them with the same brush and not giving them the benefit of the doubt - just like a lot of the general public already feel *all* CDers are freaks or perverts or whatever.

We will never gain tolerance from the public if we cannot show tolerance towards ourselves. :D

jaina
10-09-2007, 08:49 PM
No fashion police came to get me. There should be no fashion police. I can wear WHITE SHOES after LABOR DAY....... I can wear a WHITE COAT whenever I want.....maybe that is the only coat I own?? But women still get dirty looks if they wear white.

My dang purse is my tool, not a piece of fashion to me. I could careless about if it matches my outfit or not. Now I know that some of you as GASPING for air at the thought of not having a purse that matches. I am a GG....... I don't give a damn. It carries the things that I NEED to have with me.



Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

:hugs: Kris

White shoes and non matching handbags are NOT what people are talking about when disscussing dressing and acting appropriately , but you honestly knew that, you seem very intelligent but examples like that just weaken your position and really have little to do with the core issue.

Acting and Dressing (please everybody knows what that means) appropriately in a public setting.

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 09:03 PM
White shoes and non matching handbags are NOT what people are talking about when disscussing dressing and acting appropriately , but you honestly knew that, you seem very intelligent but examples like that just weaken your position and really have little to do with the core issue.

Acting and Dressing (please everybody knows what that means) appropriately in a public setting.

Maybe not exactly but dressing like "psycho **** from hell" (that Kris mentioned in her first paragraph - that you didn't quote) is exactly what most are talking about here.

jaina
10-09-2007, 09:08 PM
Maybe not exactly but dressing like "psycho **** from hell" (that Kris mentioned in her first paragraph - that you didn't quote) is exactly what most are talking about here.

Your right it didn't quote it , it wasn't needed as that is clearly inapproprate most of the time, in most places. The world is bigger then the club scene.

charlie-50
10-09-2007, 09:18 PM
True Kimberly... but do we have the right to dictate or judge how they should dress? Or should that be left to their own personal judgement?

There are some things I see in everyday life that make me cringe such as some guy that has his baggy shorts hanging down his thighs or someone that has 10 million piercings through their bottom lip. I may not personally like it or the look of it but I would be first in line to defend their right to do it. That's what liberty and personal freedom is all about.

You know i see some good points on both side of this issue...i personaly dont have a problem with it one way or the other..ya know i say if person whats to be obvious about it as long they can pull off the attiude and back there own play..let them go...charlie...:2c:

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 09:21 PM
Your right it didn't quote it , it wasn't needed as that is clearly inapproprate most of the time, in most places. The world is bigger then the club scene.

"inapproriate" or perhaps "inconvenient"???

Also, she was talking about a bingo hall - not a night club. If the world weren't bigger than the club scene then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Finally, in case you hadn't noticed, Kris isn't a CDer. :o

jaina
10-09-2007, 09:25 PM
"inapproriate" or perhaps "inconvenient"???

Also, she was talking about a bingo hall - not a night club. If the world weren't bigger than the club scene then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Finally, in case you hadn't noticed, Kris isn't a CDer. :o

I noticed.
Acting apporriatly is important for men, women, TVs, TSs, anyone who interacts with other people.

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 09:37 PM
I noticed.
Acting apporriatly is important for men, women, TVs, TSs, anyone who interacts with other people.

Yeah we already established that as soon as this thread started yesterday - perhaps you haven't read every post on this thread yet? What we're discussing is who gets to draw the line as to what is appropriate or not. Society has already decided that it's inappropriate for *all* CDers to dress in public. Some CDers on here obviously feel that line belongs somewhere else and we're trying to decide where. It seems you're more than willing to tell us all???

It's already apparent that you're OK with white shoes and non matching handbags. But what about the other CDers on here that do think that's inappropriate because it may draw undue attention? Who gets to draw the line? You or them? Or should there be a line at all?

jaina
10-09-2007, 09:49 PM
Yeah we already established that as soon as this thread started yesterday - perhaps you haven't read every post on this thread yet? What we're discussing is who gets to draw the line as to what is appropriate or not. Society has already decided that it's inappropriate for *all* CDers to dress in public. Some CDers on here obviously feel that line belongs somewhere else and we're trying to decide where. It seems you're more than willing to tell us all???

It's already apparent that you're OK with white shoes and non matching handbags. But what about the other CDers on here that do think that's inappropriate because it may draw undue attention? Who gets to draw the line? You or them? Or should there be a line at all?

Yes there should be a line in polite society.
Yes its wrong to dress like a tramp some places
Yes it wrong to trivialize TVs, CD's, TS's by drawing negative attention to them as being only fetish oriented.
No its not wrong to draw attention to them, that they exist and can blend into society. blending not as "passing" but behaving as normal citizens that go about their business. whether they go about their business as a man in a dress not quite passing, a bearded lady or invisably passing as a woman.

Most of this discussion is based on justifying inappropriate behavior, not a discussion on a individuals right to wear clothing of the opposite sex, but wanting card blache.

I'm out everyday working on society, its a tough fight.

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 10:01 PM
Yes there should be a line in polite society.
Yes its wrong to dress like a tramp some places
Yes it wrong to trivialize TVs, CD's, TS's by drawing negative attention to them as being only fetish oriented.
No its not wrong to draw attention to them, that they exist and can blend into society. blending not as "passing" but behaving as normal citizens that go about their business. whether they go about their business as a man in a dress not quite passing, a bearded lady or invisably passing as a woman.

Most of this discussion is based on justifying inappropriate behavior, not a discussion on a individuals right to wear clothing of the opposite sex, but wanting card blache.

I'm out everyday working on society, its a tough fight.

And you have the right to tell everybody to dress and act according to your approval why??? In other words, what gives you the right to tell me I shouldn't wear a short skirt to a super market? Nobody is asking for carte blanche - just the right to wear what we want when we want so long as we don't break a law or hurt someone. So tell me, what gives you the right to decide what I should wear?

jaina
10-09-2007, 10:11 PM
And you have the right to tell everybody to dress and act according to your approval why??? In other words, what gives you the right to tell me I shouldn't wear a short skirt to a super market? Nobody is asking for carte blanche - just the right to wear what we want when we want so long as we don't break a law or hurt someone. So tell me, what gives you the right to decide what I should wear?

Because you have to wear that mini skirt it makes it harder to get society to accept any skirt or blouse or heels or flats. Why does it have to be a mini and at the market? why not a skirt at the market and a mini at the club? why is your fetish more important then 1000s with GID just living a life?

susie evans
10-09-2007, 10:17 PM
RITA
you bring up a good point but i think it's up to the indavidual person my self i perfer not to attract attention and blend with the enviorment i am in at the time :hugs:

susie

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 10:19 PM
Because you have to wear that mini skirt it makes it harder to get society to accept any skirt or blouse or heels or flats. Why does it have to be a mini and at the market? why not a skirt at the market and a mini at the club? why is your fetish more important then 1000s with GID just living a life?

It's not and I never said it was. I don't wear minis to the super market. All I said was you don't have any right to dictate to me or anyone else what to wear so long as we don't break a law or hurt someone. As you never directly answered my question I'll just assume you can't. The quest continues.

Kris
10-09-2007, 11:02 PM
White shoes and non matching handbags are NOT what people are talking about when disscussing dressing and acting appropriately , but you honestly knew that, you seem very intelligent but examples like that just weaken your position and really have little to do with the core issue.

Acting and Dressing (please everybody knows what that means) appropriately in a public setting.

EXCUSE ME? I really couldn't careless about what your opinion of me is and I think it has everything to do with the core issue.

Maybe YOU don't have the intelligence to know what the social norms are for women because you AREN'T one? Ever think of that?

Further more, Nikki love, don't waste your time or energy trying to stand up for me. I appreciate it very much and see it as a very kind and giving act. There are those, we know, that do not know how to have a good debate and exchange idea's without making it personal. Did you read my cattle comment a while back? Mooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

:hugs: and :love: Kris

Kris
10-09-2007, 11:35 PM
I noticed.
Acting apporriatly is important for men, women, TVs, TSs, anyone who interacts with other people.

I have no idea how to act "apporriatly", nor do I have any desire to learn.

I am a classy woman who knows how to act appropriately with or without psycho **** from hell clothes on. I know that I didn't think that we were going to a bingo hall at the time. I thought we were going someplace else. And..... gosh, we would have been interacting with other people. Dressing like that was going to be very appropriate to where I thought we were going.:D

We most certainly were not going to go clubbing. My ex husband is disabled and is 24 years older than I am. He wouldn't have a clue how to dance with me, even if he could walk or dance right.

I would like to stress that there are many other places dressing up like a psycho **** from hell is appropriate and actually I wouldn't go clubbing looking like I did that night. OR...... Mr. Jaina - did you not know that? The world IS bigger than your shoe box, ya know? :devil:

Just for the sake of arguement, this thread was about DRESSING and not acting...... so this is why I laugh at your attempt to hurt my feelings.

Kris - Please don't continue to try to insult me. Your feeble attempt will only bite you in the behind because I am intelligent and you wont win.

battybattybats
10-09-2007, 11:36 PM
nikki, I think you confuse two aspects.

1.) Personal freedom to wear whatever they want.
I subscribe to that.

2.) ... so long as they don't break any laws or harm anyone else.

I subscribe to that too, but not harming anyone else is THE point.
I am of the opinion that inappropriate CD behavior (however defined) harms the TG community or family and each individual within this family.

An extreme example.
A while ago there has been a news article about a guy sitting in a library masturbating.
Heck, is it my problem ? No. I haven't been there, not even my country.
But it became "my" problem as a trans person reading the headline of the article
"Transvestite masturbating in library" (or something like this).
The focus isn't the explicit sexual act in public anymore, which is the inappropriate behavior (and breaks the law), but Transvestite ... that is harming IMO.

If someone is offended, they are not actually harmed. Anyone could potentially be offended by any form of expression. Some people will be offended by men in skirts, others by blue and green worn together, others by public expression of religiosity or public expression of atheism.

Offense is subjective, actual harm is not. (note: words can cause actual harm when used as violence)
Is it ok to ask unconservative dressers to dress conservatively in public so as not to offend people? No, that is not ok. It is cutting off one groups freedom for the benefit of others. It wasn't ok when womens rights groups dropped lesbian rights from their agenda for that purpose.

Now if someone is breaking just and fair laws like masturbating in public that is different because it is an unethical act.. it is not the effect it has on the TG community that makes it wrong it is the act itself that does so. If someone breaks an unjust law such as segregation that is a rightous act because it is risking consequences to stand up for what is right, what is ethical.

If someone wants to go out in public with a beard and a skirt, if they want to dress in an ankle-length latex skirt covered in leather straps and buckles, if they go out dressed in a legal but risque outfit they are expressing themselves as they do and should have the right and freedom to do so. We should all be prepared to fight for that right, that freedom.

What is the alternative? People can only express themselves in ways that others agree with? And who decides where the line is? The most offended? Get out your Ahmish clothing then. The majority? They cannot be trusted to allow the rights of minorities.. the Ahmish might not be able to dress Ahmishly then. The state? Mao suits anyone?

Nope, I see no alternative to mutually recognised individual freedom. One where to claim your own freedom you must be prepared to allow and fight for the freedoms of others.


about 3 years ago I was in a nightclub when one of the TGs there lifted her skirt and exposed all her "equipment"---obviously that kind of behavior gives the rest of us a bad name---the only excuse she had was she was drunk(and that's no excuse)---

Well this is a seperate issue but bears discussion because of it's effects on causal moral reasoning.

If the part of the brain that restrains impulses is reduced in effectiveness how can someone be accountable for their actions? Sorry but being sufficiently drunk is a scientific and moral excuse for any act only contemplated and performed while in that state.. does that mean that all substances that can render somone in a state of diminished responsibility should be banned or all acts performed in that state are totally guilt-free? Yes. Yes it actually does.

It is a conveniant excuse to continue to blame people who are medically incapable of making fully thought out decisions. It is however intellectually dishonest. If you don't want the negative consequences of the aweful actions of inebriated people there are several options.

1. Alternate responsibility.. in that if a person drinks alone they are responsible for comitting the crime of diminishing their responsibility even if they never do something bad while drunk and where if they drink with someone else that person is required to stay sober, to control the actions of the drinker and to be the person held responsible for all consequences of the persons actions.

2. Ban alcohol.

Now lets apply the same reasoning to CDing
If people feel the need to dress differently to the rest of the community and are not mentally or physically ill but the rest of the community do not want them to then what are the fair options?

1. Educate the community. Help the populace aclimatise to the fact. Those that remain opposed just lose out. Allow all people the right to dress however they want (as long as it is ethical).
2. Provide a seperate space for crossdressing away from the public.. segregation.. already determined as morally and ethically wrong.. therefore unacceptable.
3. Ban all impractical clothing. Robbing everyone of the right to free expression.

Looks like the only ethical and moral option is number 1.

Now as for common sense...
Common sense.. is an illusion!
It is neither common nor sense. it is instead a catch-all phrase denoting a range of cultural and social standards, a rough approximation of risk and a justification for a range of often malfeasant and unarguable yet popular beliefs.

For example in the past it was said that is was 'common sense' for:
Women to be inferior to men.
Blacks to be inferior to whites.
Segregation.
Taking the children from unmarried and/or American Indian and/or Australian Aboriginal mothers.
Forcible sterilisation of the poor.

Fashion Fascism is still fascism.
Whether it is ageist rules of clothes, sizist rules of clothes, racist rules, classist rules, sexist rules.. they are all wrong. Each and every one is wrong.
The very notion that some forms of expression are appropriate only in certain contexts (with the exception of sexually explicit expression around under-age people) is itself repugnant and wrong. It goes against the very principles of freedom.
In fact I say that everyone who dresses 'inappropriatly' whether it is an overweight woman in lingerie, a pregnant woman in a revealing dress, an elderly grandmother in a bikini, a bearded and tattooed man in a cheerleading outfit.. all of them are rebels opposing evil.. are warriors for right!

I think everyone should stand up for freedom and wear something 'innappropriate'! After all.. it wasn't that long ago that whites talking as equals with blacks was inappropriate! It wasn't that long ago that women speaking without being spoken to first was innapropriate!

And to all those who are upset with outlandish dressers making it harder for you to claim your rights... I say what I said to the gay folk who were upset at the TGs and Drag Queens making it difficult for their rights.. if you don't stand up for the rights of others you don't deserve them for yourselves!.

Kris
10-09-2007, 11:39 PM
Yes there should be a line in polite society.
Yes its wrong to dress like a tramp some places
Yes it wrong to trivialize TVs, CD's, TS's by drawing negative attention to them as being only fetish oriented.
No its not wrong to draw attention to them, that they exist and can blend into society. blending not as "passing" but behaving as normal citizens that go about their business. whether they go about their business as a man in a dress not quite passing, a bearded lady or invisably passing as a woman.

Most of this discussion is based on justifying inappropriate behavior, not a discussion on a individuals right to wear clothing of the opposite sex, but wanting card blache.

I'm out everyday working on society, its a tough fight.

LOOK OUT WORLD.. Custer is back and his name is Jaina...

And he can't figure out the jest of the thread either.....

Good grief...

LA CINDY LOVE
10-09-2007, 11:46 PM
For the most part I just love the way we Cd's dress the way we can put a outfit together is really something to see.

We can dress so sexy when it is time to hit the clubs and when we go out to dinner we know how to dress so sharp and if it is shopping we can dress casual, and yes we do know how to dress for the occasion.

I do know we Cd's try to wear cloths that we can not pull off but if you do not try how will you know what you can wear and what you can not wear.

I hear a lot of times that we should dress our age I say we should NOT, who wants to join the grandmother club, you should dress the way you feel not the way some want you to dress.

Life is just to short....take a walk on the wild side.

LA CINDY LOVE

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 11:50 PM
Nope, I see no alternative to mutually recognised individual freedom. One where to claim your own freedom you must be prepared to allow and fight for the freedoms of others.

Wow! You're starting to sound like me LOL

I've said this before but I'll say it again: freedom is all about defending someone's right to do something you may not like.

Otherwise, you'll never truly have real freedom - because there will ALWAYS be someone out there that doesn't like what you do. :sb:

Sophie_C
10-09-2007, 11:52 PM
Look, I think some of you girls are putting the cart before the horse.

Yes, people should be able to do whatever they want in society, provided it harms no one else.

Yes, any girl, natural or not, should have the right to run around the city in nothing but a thong, without anyone batting an eye or even caring about it.

**knock, knock**

This is 2007, not 3007 or even 2107.

The right to be able to dress respectfully without repercussion must be done first before it can be taken further.

Would a Female African-American slave in the 1700s stand up and say "I deserve the right to be elected President?"

No, because she'd just get whipped and nothing positive would occur, except probably keeping all books and writing out of sight.

First small steps begin. People become used to tgirls being seen as human beings. They get used to seeing them around, just like themselves, just living their lives. Then they begin noticing how they're treated like hell. The ideas on ensuring rights takes hold. And, it carries on from there.

Without placing yourself in a sensible and respectable light, you'll just remain being seen as a 'freak', therefore getting all the people full of hate ammo to keep oppressing the girls who want to just live their lives.

So, you can either be intelligent about this and find a way to set things the way they should be through the understanding of the psychology of the mind and acclimation OR you can just pout like a child and say "We should be able to do what we want to. Waaaah!"

You tell me what's going to get anything done for everyone? :mad:

ArleneRaquel
10-09-2007, 11:53 PM
I don't want to dress my drab age one of the reasons that I dress is that I look twenty years younger enfemme IMHO. :happy: :love: & :hugs: Beyonce Welch - Sexy Grandmother :thumbsup:

nikki_t
10-09-2007, 11:57 PM
Would a Female African-American slave in the 1700s stand up and say "I deserve the right to be elected President?"



Would a black woman in 1960's America give up her seat on a bus for a white man?




You tell me what's going to get anything done for everyone? :mad:

That's right! Give up before you even start. :surrender

Sophie_C
10-10-2007, 12:02 AM
Would a black woman in 1960's America give up her seat on a bus for a white man?

That's right! Give up before you even start. :surrender

You didn't get a word I said.

Read it over, again.

Kris
10-10-2007, 12:04 AM
Would a black woman in 1960's America give up her seat on a bus for a white man?


OH MY GOSH ... I think this actually happened... what was her name.. Rosa Parks?? :heehee:

That's right! Give up before you even start. :surrender

And no slaves didn't ask about running for president because they KNEW it wouldn't happen for goodness sake....

Crossdressers have a chance to BAND together and make a statement involving everyone. Like gay people do, (did) and women did when they wanted the right to VOTE.. or wear pants.

:hugs: Kris

nikki_t
10-10-2007, 12:07 AM
You didn't get a word I said.

Read it over, again.

Yeah I did. "Too much too soon" is what you were saying. So let's tip toe around and fart about and we might just get there by 2107 like you predict. :eek:

Holly
10-10-2007, 12:10 AM
This has gone way off topic and is getting much to personal. Let's move on to something else... and try to be civil with one another, shall we?