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Miss Tessa
11-20-2008, 01:44 AM
I find it disgusting that alot of CD's hide their dressing from their wives

Marriage is about a sacred team, a union, and it entails honesty and I think if you CD you should disclose it.

Your kids don't need to know but your wives? Come on!

That's like as bad as cheating. It' Omission and it's lying.

I hear all these posts like, "How can I hide my pantyhose from my wife." Jesus. That is pure deception.


Imagine how your wife would feel.

I think your CD'ing is less of a problem for them than the lying and sneaking around.

I know you're not real women like me so it's hard to think of it how SHE might feel, but I would rather him be honest and tell me he had a perversion (if she thinks of it that way) rather than being deceptive AND doing your thing too.

Andrea's Lynne
11-20-2008, 06:10 AM
I have to agree.

But I also have a wonderful, loving, and accepting wife.

Jess_cd32
11-20-2008, 06:24 AM
It's not as simplistic as that as so many SO's have a different view of CDing.
Some may research into it after finding out to gain knowledge of it, and others may just form an instant opinion that "your perverted, get away from me" attitude and just leave it at that.

I think most cd's feel out their partners feelings about it subtly and realize telling them won't be pretty most likely, but they want to. This is my third time using this phrase again lately and seems to apply often here, but ever heard of " being caught between a rock and a hard place", seems alot of us here are in that hard place.

I'd tell her in a minute if I thought she would listen and learn more about it.
She's going to have to deal with it soon anyways though as I do plan on telling her within the next few months. I actually joked w/ her today telling her I'm going to tie you down in a chair soon and we're going to discuss alot of different matters and your not going to change the subject or run off.
That's what some of us are dealing with w/ our SO's.

Not legally married here actually, but consider us married at this point, we also argue just like a married couple to:heehee:

LACD
11-20-2008, 06:30 AM
Tessa you're right about marriage being sacred. I hid my dressing from my wife for over thirty years. She knew I liked womens clothes, but had no idea to what extent I liked them. I was afraid she would leave so I dressed in secret whenever I had the chance. About 4 years ago we got the subject in the open and had many long talks about my dressing. Her greatest fear was and still is that I would leave her for another CD'er. I love her greatly and would not let my dressing some between us and our marriage. Now that she is fully aware of my dressing, she is very supportive of it. She helps me shop and has taught me many things to look for in clothes and lingerie. I enjoy my time dressed now more than ever. I am thankful things worked out the way they did. She told me in one of our early talks that if she would have known before we got married, she would have broke things off. I am glad we are together and she supports me in this. Sorry for the long post, but didn't know any other way to put it. Thanks for letting me vent.

Katrina
11-20-2008, 06:31 AM
Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. I was married to a woman who would not have been cool with anything related to CDing. Her man had to be manly and that was that. I was miserable, but I didn't do any CDing other than Halloween (which she helped me with). Glad she is my ex now. I couldn't be with someone who didn't accept it, nor would I expect a woman to be with me if it was something I hid from her. I'm a big fan of full disclosure.

insearchofme
11-20-2008, 06:49 AM
Miss Tessa

Don't judge others until you'e walked a mile in their heels!

yms
11-20-2008, 06:54 AM
OK. Soapbox time....

Marriage was never about being "sacred." Historically it was about economics and politics.

For example, do you know why, traditionally, the groom stands to the bride's right? Because in the old days, when women were kidnapped from the neighboring clan and forced into marriage to create political unions between clans, the groom needed to keep his sword arm free in case the bride's family tried to rescue her. The groomsmen were body guards.

Not so sacred. It was the catholic church that made it a sacrament and the catholic church has a way of screwing things up.

One only need look at the oppressive laws that existed that barred wives from owning property, laws that allowed husbands to beat their wives for certain offenses, to see that marriage was never thought of as sacred. Some of these property laws existed in the United States into the 20th century.

It is interesting to note that the word husband, other than meaning what it does in marriage, was first used as a verb meaning to tend to, to cultivate (husbandry), whereas the word wife originally referred to a woman "of humble rank or low employment, involved in the sale of some commodity." (from the OED).

Very sacred.

We place too much significance on marriage as an institution and not enough on the relationship itself. Most people who are married probably shouldn't be. Most people spend more time picking out the menu for their wedding party than they do picking a spouse. After all - "it's the biggest day of your life."

So once we get over this marriage thing, we are left discussing relationships. Relationships come in all sizes and shapes, and there is no one size fits all. All relationships have their limits and boundaries, what is acceptable for each person in that relationship to do and not do, and so on. Some relationships are better for secrecy, others suffer from it.

Whenever a crossdresser has asked me if he should tell his wife, my answer is always no, because it will more than likely end the relationship. Maybe not the next day, but eventually. It will certainly make life hell for them. That said, I told both my spouses before we married. One hated it, the second one embraced it (actually, she embraced me). Does that mean the odds for someone else are 50-50? I don't think so. But the bottom line is, no one can predict how someone else's wife/SO will respond.

Katheryn
11-20-2008, 07:42 AM
T Her greatest fear was and still is that I would leave her for another CD'er.


My wife's fear was that I would have SRS/GRS and leave her for a man. Now, over a decade later, she realizes that won't happen. That didn't make the coming out discussion any easier, however.

The most important things to do with that discussion is:
Identify her fears and address them directly.
Point out that in most likelyhood, the things that she liked about you over other males stem directly from the things in your mental makeup that lead you to dress in the first place.

This past weekend we celebrated 30 years of marriage.

Kate

Katheryn
11-20-2008, 08:03 AM
OK. Soapbox time....
We place too much significance on marriage as an institution and not enough on the relationship itself. Most people who are married probably shouldn't be. Most people spend more time picking out the menu for their wedding party than they do picking a spouse.

Okay, if you're done on the soapbox, mind if I borrow it?

We just got done here in Fla with an election that had a "Defense of Marriage" question.

sigh....

I think the marriage/divorce rate among our celebrities is far more an assault on marriage than two gay people "tying the knot". That being said, most of the electorate is frighteningly stupid and can be easily misled or are just so full of their own prejudices that these sorts of amendments have a really tough time getting passed.

That being said, according to studies I have read, most people are more accepting of homosexuality than they are of transgendered folks. (Don't yell at me, I didn't do the studies, merely saying I read them.)

Why is that? Well, my guess would be the first thing said about anyone is "It's a girl" or "It's a boy". (Why not "He's a boy" or "She's a girl"?) TG'd people mess with that, and by doing so violate the nice, neat bi-gendered picture most people have of the world. To them, gay people are at least staying within the bigendered picture of how the world "should be".

Okay, soapbox is open to anyone else.

Kate

Kelly DeWinter
11-20-2008, 08:43 AM
I find it disgusting that alot of CD's hide their dressing from their wives

Marriage is about a sacred team, a union, and it entails honesty and I think if you CD you should disclose it.

Your kids don't need to know but your wives? Come on!

That's like as bad as cheating. It' Omission and it's lying.

I hear all these posts like, "How can I hide my pantyhose from my wife." Jesus. That is pure deception.


Imagine how your wife would feel.

I think your CD'ing is less of a problem for them than the lying and sneaking around.

I know you're not real women like me so it's hard to think of it how SHE might feel, but I would rather him be honest and tell me he had a perversion (if she thinks of it that way) rather than being deceptive AND doing your thing too.

Tessa, i usualy don't respond directly to a post, but yours is obviously from a young person. The society we live in today makes it possible via the internet to make and have friends who accept you how you are, meet up with the same people, and yes possibly even find someone who at least accepts you warts, heels and all. There has been time and news enough that most people at least know WHAT a crossdresser,trangendered person means. We are slowly making our way into the public life. 10-15 years ago, it was inconciveable to hear about a TG person being seen in public, unless you ther story was about them being beaten to death . TG persons were relegated in public opinion to the same line as prostitutes and the mentaly unstable.

Yes a lot of people with 10-25 year marriages still hide,lie,are ashamed, dress,purge,dress,purge,dress,purge until the become depressed, because the stable career they have worked 15-20 years to build may crash, just because they forgot to remove fingernail polish before going to work (yes , that happend to one gal). Or becuase they were web surfing non pornagraphic TG web site during their lunch time (yes that happend to a gal as well). They conceal their actions because a H**L of a lot of people WILL NOT accept them for who they are.

The freedoms of expression that this generation of TG's, the younger generation enjoy today, are of a direct result of these wonderful gals who have RISKED everything they have to PAVE THE WAY for them to be able to walk more free in heels, have SRS if you choose, dress the way they woud want.
Married TG people have been told for years that what they DO,ACT,SAY is WRONG for so many years they HIDE things, they LIE to people they love, they live in FEAR and DREAD, that somone will find out.

I find not what you said offensive, but HOW you said it offensive. Nobody WANTS to lie to family,spouses or kids, but they struggle with how to express themselves WITHOUT having to lie.

This forum for the MOST part encourages them to find a SAFE and HONEST way to express these feelings.

From your post you think that it is easy to be out reguarding a male dressing or acting femimine, then I encourage you to spend a day with two or three average TG girls or at least learn more about the history of the people who you are critical of.

My apologies if YOU find MY post offensive, but I AM disgusted by the TONE of your post.

Oh and by the way, I'm not sure why you make statements like :
"I know you're not real women like me "
when in previous posts you say your a T-Girl. this is your post

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92228 (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92228)

TESSA you need to start by being honest yourself !!!!!!!!!

My sincere apologies to the rest of you girls.

I vacate the soapbox to the next gal in line ............

TGMarla
11-20-2008, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the nice history lesson, Yvonne. I couldn't agree more. The relationship is very important. Marriage is something that is placed upon relationships that allow for legal ramifications and socio-religious acceptance.

I love my wife, and I'm glad she's my wife. She's a really good person, and I'm lucky to have her. But she is not overly accepting of crossdressing. Does that mean in your book that I should allow it to splinter our relationship? I think not. Clean your own house before you clean mine, please.

Trinni
11-20-2008, 09:03 AM
I was thinking about this thread and some thoughts came to mind.

Would the secrecy be an issue if one person in a marriage went for ice cream everyday without telling the other. How about if they love to go bowling by them self because they enjoy it more or go to the driving range and does not tell the other. From there I thought what if them really enjoy watching foreign films alone. I'm not talking about porn which most would say that would be a problem because of the sex factor but just watching foreign films.

If these were not a problem but porn was because of the sex factor, what about the men who like to CD strictly from the love of the clothes but has not sexual feeling towards it. Some CD because it has a sexual feeling and some it does not.

Most people would think the ice cream thing has no barring on CDing but it is still a secret.

Where is the line drawn. Is sexual overtones the problem with the secret or is it something else. I guess I'm just playing devils advocate on this on but this is not a black and white subject, as I thought about it I saw a lot of shades of grey. :2c:

fay
11-20-2008, 09:15 AM
:thumbsdn:

morgansrun
11-20-2008, 09:19 AM
absolutely marriage is scacred,does'nt matter what generation we live in, it is still a vow before God. And not telling the wife for years after is decietful, harmful and in doing so years later, she will never trust you again. Been there and have the Tshirt as well. She needs to know who she married as you knew who you married right? Well, hiding something like this which is part of YOU, who you are because you are scared is bs.......and extremely selfish and childish.......sorry but had a lot of feedback from wives over the years and it ranges from disgust, never trusting again, always waiting for another bomb to drop, down to accepting it in time and participating in shopping.........:straightface:

Miss Tessa
11-20-2008, 09:23 AM
I didn't mean any offense.

I was just a little curious.

To me, marriage is a union based around God and religious vows so I take it pretty seriously.

And marriage was not originally about politics and money.

God made marriage for Adam and Eve.That was what marriage was meant to be like.
It was Holy.


I have a child and his mother is not on bad terms with me by any means but I am not married and never plan to be.


Thank you all for the comments. Yes, I am young and never been legally married.I am young and the older ladies on the board who are married were raized up in a different time where things were done differently and people lived more conservative and different from the way people live in this modern times.... So I do not have an understanding from first hand experience.


I'm not trying to attack anyone, I am just curious.

Magickman
11-20-2008, 09:34 AM
Firstly, I was never a believer in marriage, to begin with.

Other folks can do what pleases them.

But for me, marriage was much less sacred than just plain scary.

So I made it a point, not to seek, nor to accept, marriage.

That was long before my first skirt or high heels.

Perpetual singledom can be a bit lonely. The bachelor's bed is a cold repose.

But if the alternative frightens you to death, what then the road to follow?

***************************

I don't have to hide nothin' from nobody.

MJ
11-20-2008, 10:26 AM
society's views of us and stereotyping. why not ask gg who are not here the ones who only know from the media and jerry springer they will tell you.
and then you can see why some of our S.O are so negative.

before my wife found out we were happy had 3 wonderful children a good home good church and life was fine.
then she finds out the man she loves , loves to wear womans clothing it hit her like an atom bomb . she never wanted to read the information or research this.
she after 21 years ask me to pack my bags and get the hell out and told everybody we knew including the church ...
i lost my wife my children my church. my friends. you tell me how would you feel. i understand why many can't tell i lost the one i truly loved .
the gg who accept us are saints to put up with us. but there are not too many like them.. i am all for being truthful but at what cost..what are you willing to lose and what will you gain.

sandra-leigh
11-20-2008, 11:02 AM
I find it disgusting that alot of CD's hide their dressing from their wives

I find it disgusting that you judge people without knowing them or their circumstances. Relationships are not "one size fits all".



Marriage is about a sacred team, a union

To me, marriage is a union based around God and religious vows so I take it pretty seriously.

Posts about religion belong in the Religious Discussion Forum. I cannot reply to those points (which form the core of your argument) as religious discussions are not permitted in the main forums.

docrobbysherry
11-20-2008, 11:07 AM
Tessa, it's obvious from your post you've never been married. Kelly and Yvonne posted some valuable info based on life experiences.

Marriage is SO far from sacred! It's hard work, often painful, and the divorce rate doesn't come close to indicating how many couples stay in unhappy marriages for convenience, or "the children"! :sad:

Even the preacher who married us described the "tunnel of hell", he and his wife went thru after the "honeymoon" first few years of their marriage!:eek:

We just had an election in Cal. to decide if gays could marry. The election SHOULD have been about puting restrictions on ANYONE that WANTS TO MARRY!

U have to get license to drive, yet any two idiots can get married! There should be education classes required, and tests to be taken and passed, before people are allowed to marry. For most folks, it is the one event that will MOST effect their entire life!:eek:

And finally, Tessa, CDing is usually just the tip of the iceberg in marriages! If a couple has a great marriage, than CDing probably won't be a big deal. Maybe even make it more fun for them both! If they have a troubled marriage then, bringing home the wrong brand of coffee can cause a big problem. Never mind CDING!:doh:

Of course I've, been there, done that! My marriage break up had NOTHING to do with my CDing. We had REAL PROBLEMS!

Kelly DeWinter
11-20-2008, 11:13 AM
I didn't mean any offense.

I was just a little curious.

You did offend, and have not apologived as an adult would in this situation.

To me, marriage is a union based around God and religious vows so I take it pretty seriously.


And marriage was not originally about politics and money.

The institution of marriage was, is, and will allways be about politics since in a divorce the basic items to decide are political (who gets the kids,dogs,friends, etc) and money (how will the assets be divided).

God made marriage for Adam and Eve.That was what marriage was meant to be like.
It was Holy.

God did not make Marriage, he made Eve for Adem as a helpmeet for Adam, and for the purpose of procreation (I'll get a lot of emails on this one), then the institution of a formal legaly binding marriage came later. much later, probably at the time the first lawyer put out his shingle.

I have a child and his mother is not on bad terms with me by any means but I am not married and never plan to be.

If you have a child (procreation) and are not on bad terms with the mother why did you not get married ? It sounds like you are Biblicly married if not legaly.

Thank you all for the comments. Yes, I am young and never been legally married( but Biblicly married).I am young and the older ladies

older ladies is patentley offisive most TG prefer gals,girls and such , but NOT OLD LADY

on the board who are married were raized up in a different time where things were done differently and people lived more conservative and different from the way people live in this modern times.... So I do not have an understanding from first hand experience.


I'm not trying to attack anyone, I am just curious.

you're post was not curious in tone, but a rant similar to the one i'm having over this.

I still think an appology is in order.

and yes I am in a bit of a mood today, mayby shoe shopping will help me ? :(

Julogden
11-20-2008, 11:28 AM
Hi Tessa,

I'll certainly agree that a SO should be told early on in the relationship, but I'd argue about the "sacred" part, depending on how you're intending that term to be interpreted. I think you're using it to imply that marriage should be an absolute bond of trust between two people, and if that's what you mean, then I agree. I'm not at all in agreement with your statement about marriage being made by God for Adam and Eve.

And I'll agree with tess-leigh that relationships are not "one size fits all", so I can't say that hiding one's CD side from a spouse is 100% always the wrong thing, but I will agree that it's not the ideal way to behave, in general. Sometimes we have to play the hand we're dealt, not the one we wish we were dealt.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt as far as the tone of your posting goes, sounds like you were having a bad day and decided to post a rant here. You're apparently young, so I'll give you the advice I'd give one of my grown kids: when you're PO'ed about something, write down what you're angry about, say whatever you want to say, don't hold back, be as outrageous as you want, but write it on a piece of paper and put it away for a few days. Then, after you've calmed down, take the piece of paper out and read what you wrote, and if you still feel the same way, then maybe share it, but don't post stuff in a public forum when you're angry, it's just not a good idea, and I know from experience of what I speak. :-(

Carol

P.S. On re-reading your posting, I just noticed what you ended with: "I know you're not real women like me", that is a very low blow. You're a transexual woman, pre-op at that, and there are other TS women here. This sort of holier-than-thou attitude from some TS's has been a very real thorn in the side of the T-community for many years, and you really ought to be ashamed of yourself for going there.

yms
11-20-2008, 12:04 PM
We just had an election in Cal. to decide if gays could marry. The election SHOULD have been about puting restrictions on ANYONE that WANTS TO MARRY!

U have to get license to drive, yet any two idiots can get married! There should be education classes required, and tests to be taken and passed, before people are allowed to marry. For most folks, it is the one event that will MOST effect their entire life!:eek:

!

Hear, hear!!!!

I've always said we have it backwards. If two people want to get married, they should each have to hire lawyers and argue in front of a judge why they should be allowed to do so.

But when they get divorced, they go down to City Hall, pay $25, sign a few papers and it's done.

And if they want to have kids - well!

ElaineB
11-20-2008, 12:27 PM
Pardon me while my thoughts wander a bit. They will come back to one of the things mentioned here, I promise!

Up here in the great white north, gay marriage has been a *really* big issue the last few years (more so than in the US even).

The GLBT groups say that only allowing hetero marriage is discriminatory because there are real benefits attached. This is a good and obvious point. (The equally obvious argument against it is that opening up the definition also opens up the amount of benefits we have to pay out, but because of the details that really does not wash).

The anti crowd have a bunch of reasons, but one of the more common and interesting views was "I would be fine giving them all the rights if they just stopped calling it a marriage." I see their point ... the dynamics in a same-sex relationship must be somewhat different from a traditional hetero relationship ... but .. back to that in a second.

An even more interesting thing is that some of the noisier antis started shouting "if we allow gay marriage then we have to allow group marriages and bigamy." This is interesting because first, it exposes their bigotry for everyone to see, but also because of the weird twisted logic to it. In fact, pluralistic marriages are common in many cultures throughout the world including many of the first peoples in Canada ... the Cree and Inuit are just two fast and easy examples. So what are these people really saying? "We must deny gay marriage so we can keep repressing historical reality?" Somehow it looks less reasonable phrased that way. :heehee:

Given that, the point about gay marriages being "different" from hetero marriage is just silly and irrelevant.

All that has made me think about how we define marriage in general and I find I somewhat agree with yms, although she seems to be talking mostly about western marriage. I think it would be good if government just got out of the marriage business entirely. Marriages really are ... when all is said and done ... just private contracts between individuals.

Just a tangential thought on a cloudy morning, so I can further avoid work I do not want to do for a bit longer.

sandra-leigh
11-20-2008, 12:29 PM
And I'll agree with tess-leigh that relationships are not "one size fits all", so I can't say that hiding one's CD side from a spouse is 100% always the wrong thing, but I will agree that it's not the ideal way to behave, in general. Sometimes we have to play the hand we're dealt, not the one we wish we were dealt.


Hear! Hear!

I have Problems, my wife has Problems, some of my Problems cause significant trouble for her, some of her Problems cause significant trouble for me. Neither of us are perfect, and external circumstances have not exactly been all roses for us. We do what we can at the time, sometimes we yell at each other in frustration... and feel better for having vented, even if little actually changes.

In view of the things we've gone through together, I considered my early cross-dressing (it's only been about 4 years) to be personal, not something she had to know about. If I had turned out to be content with just underdress from time to time when she wasn't around, then it might have been some time before I ever told her. But I wasn't content with that: I wanted to be able to Go Out sometimes, and in particular I wanted to be able to go to our club monthly meetings.

It wasn't the cross-dressing itself that I considered important in the relationship: it was the lying about it that was really eating at me. "Working a little late" and slipping in to a club meeting for 10 or 20 minutes and taking a taxi took about the same time as "working a little late" and taking the bus, and I found all kinds of creative ways to imply I was doing something else. For example if I went shopping for girl clothes and stopped and looked at the shoes, I sometimes just said that "I stopped to look at shoes" and just omitted saying anything about the rest of the time. I hated the dishonesty about my actions; I didn't hate the fact that I hadn't told her I was a cross-dresser.

sissystephanie
11-20-2008, 12:42 PM
I was amused to read some of the posts on this thread. As one of the more senior (in actual age!) members of this forum, I thought it was time to put my two cents in! That is :2c: based on actual life experiences gained over many years. Not from a book, off the internet, or what someone else said, but from my own life.

It would appear that many of you have no clue as to what "marriage" means. If that offends anyone I am sorry. But it does apply even to those who have been married and are now divorced, or on number 2 or 3 wife. Marriage is a Sacred obligation for a lifetime, and should be regarded as such. Someone said that "most people who are married shouldn't be." I don't think that "most" is the correct word in that statement. Many people should not be married, for many different reasons. If you are not willing to make the total committment that is necessary for a marriage to work, then you should not get married. Part of that committment is full and complete honesty between both parties. If you cannot, for whatever reason, do that you should not be married!!

The notion that our views of marriage should change because society has changed are ludicrous. Society has not changed in that regard, a segment of society has discarded moral values in favor of "what makes ME happy" values.

To not tell your wife about your CD activities is a total copout. But the time to tell her is BEFORE she becomes your wife. If you want to live with her for the rest of your lives, then you have to be totally honest about who and what you are. If she cannot, or will not, accept that you are a CD, then you need to find someone else.

I told my late wife before I proposed to her. She was not only accepting, but also said she would teach me a lot about being feminine. We had a very happy marriage for 49+ years before she passed away. I loved her very deeply, and still do! But if she had told me that she could not accept my CD'ing, I would have found someone else! I could not. and will not, live a life of deceit!

Sorry for the length of this post, I just got a little P.O.'ed.

Stephanie

Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

balletchick
11-20-2008, 01:16 PM
Marriage in my opinion is not sacred but an outdated concept or ideal. Society has changed and the 1950's era where marriage could work is dead and gone. The era where the man was the bread winner and the woman stayed home raised the kids. Times have changed it takes both the man and the woman to work and pay the mortgage now the kids go to daycare. The woman no longer has to take the submissive role since she is earning just as much if not more than the man. Women today will not tolerate being dictated to by the man the way the used to in the 50's. There is too much temptation on either side if the fence. Society now is set up for marriages to fail. Somebody here referred to marriage as a "contract" look at that word it has "con" at the begining of it, that should be an indication right there.

There is nothing sacred IMO about marriage I dont believe in a father figure that lives in the sky that will smight me for lack of faith or if I do evil, so there is nothing to make a vow to.

As for relationships I have learned the hard way that it is better to tell her as soon as possible for an open honest relationship. Besides I shave everywhere now so the moment I take off my clothes questions arise.

Violetgray
11-20-2008, 02:10 PM
Husbands should not hide things from their wives. True. But the cold, absolute approach that a few of you are taking fails to account for human nature. Consider this..

What if he's sure she would leave if she knew? For all the talk about the sanctity of marriage, what about the choice between the truth, and destroying that marriage? I do NOT advocate lying to your wife, I'm just saying that the choice isn't always so simple.

It's also been said that you should tell her before she even becomes your wife. This is absolutely true. This is by far the best option, but keep in mind that not everyone can do this.

Why?

For one, it's not always true when you get married. Self discovery happens at a different pace for everyone, and he may not have started cross dressing until he got married.

Also, there are those that swear it off, and decide to change for their wives. They think like you do, if doing something has a negative impact on my marriage, then I'll just not do it. This NEVER works. They fall off the wagon, and land right into a pair of heels.

Charlotte Sometimes
11-20-2008, 02:13 PM
I had only recently come out to my wife of 15+ years and although she has been supportive I did not tell her out of obligation but rather an expanding waredrobe for Charlotte and a realization that she would sooner or later find out.
I hadn't told her in the beginning mostly because like most CDers I myself was unsure of why I was doing this, and later because I felt if I had a hard time understanding what I was doing how could I expect her to.

Sarah Martin
11-20-2008, 02:19 PM
:2c:

A strange post, Tessa.

It is unfortunate that the tone of your post comes across as hostile and aggressive - like a man, in fact.

My reply assumes that you had a serious point to make, although it's hard to tell as the confrontational undertone to your post makes it feel like a 'Flame': an inflammatory post designed solely to provoke a reaction and with no merit of its own.

Your posting fails to recognise the pragmatism with which a CD manages the relationship with his partner. Many wives would feel sufficiently threatened/upset with the revelation that their partner was a CD to cause serious difficulties - possibly leading to marriage difficulties or even divorce. It is because CDs love their partners and wish to spare them pain or embarrassment that they stay silent. It is NOT about deception or deceit.

Perhaps when you are a little more experienced in life - and have more empathy with others - you will understand.

Life should be filled with Joy - not the anger you display in your post. I hope you come through this phase to a brighter future - one where you come to accept others regardless of their human frailties.

xxx
Sarah

(Who told his partner the same night he proposed - and is still happily married 31 years later)

Missy
11-20-2008, 02:24 PM
I told my wife why before we even talked about getting married. She knows every thing about me then anyone should know. She is my wife, my partner, my best friend for life. and so far we have made it past 7 years of marrage and over 8 years of being together. every now and then she saids i love you no matter what i wear male or female yes i may be lucky to be with her, but i have to be honest with her in order to have her in the rest of my life

Missy

curse within
11-20-2008, 03:58 PM
I find it disgusting that alot of CD's hide their dressing from their wives

Marriage is about a sacred team, a union, and it entails honesty and I think if you CD you should disclose it.

Your kids don't need to know but your wives? Come on!

That's like as bad as cheating. It' Omission and it's lying.

I hear all these posts like, "How can I hide my pantyhose from my wife." Jesus. That is pure deception.


Imagine how your wife would feel.






I think your CD'ing is less of a problem for them than the lying and sneaking around.

I know you're not real women like me so it's hard to think of it how SHE might feel, but I would rather him be honest and tell me he had a perversion (if she thinks of it that way) rather than being deceptive AND doing your thing too.Miss I told my wife long before we were married it was her choice for me to hide my activitys same could go for other here

Jess_cd32
11-20-2008, 04:16 PM
...........she after 21 years ask me to pack my bags and get the hell out and told everybody we knew including the church ...
i lost my wife my children my church. my friends. you tell me how would you feel. i understand why many can't tell i lost the one i truly loved ..........

Could you have done that to her if the situation was turned around?
I gotta wonder sometimes if alot of you aren't really better off without someone that could do this, including so called friends.

I know I couldn't act like that to my SO no matter what she did, its mean spirited to say the least what she did, and thats putting it as mildly and as nicely as I can. I see their church has failed them just like so many others have, hell when are the stonings going to come back in style again w/ these hypocrites!

I'm sorry about your experience, hope you can at least get back your relationship w/ your kids, cd-ing is no reason to be away from them and assisting in raising them either. You sound like you can offer them alot and I'm sure you love them dearly, don't let these hypocrites beat you down.

I'm from a religious backround myself and can honestly say as a non practicing Christian (isn't everyone really), the ones that do attend church couldn't hold a candle to my good deeds done truly from the heart and my acceptance of others. Aside from your children, I personally think your not missing much like you think you had w/ the others.

My hope for you is that you find another SO that does TRULY love you as you did your ex SO and you renew your relationship w/ your kids for their and your sake.

jayelle
11-20-2008, 04:22 PM
It has been said by many others here in the past, but it can never be repeated too often. Everyone's circumstances are different.

I started cross-dressing late in life -- a few years after I married. It is, and has always been, a private activity. I dress once a week or so, always alone. I have never had any urge to do more than that.

I am a very logical person, and when it became obvious that cross-dressing was a fairly permanent part of my life, I debated with myself whether I should tell my wife.

So I asked myself the key question. What was the benefit to her?

I struggled to find any. Yes, it would be more "honest". But what was the practical benefit of that honesty?

No, the only practical benefit I could think of was that it removed the slim possibility that she would arrive home unexpectedly and see me as she had never seen me before.

Weigh that against the near-certainty that she would not find CD-ing to be a positive thing. I had great faith in the strength of our marriage, and I knew it wouldn't lead to us splitting up, but I was pretty certain that she would not like it. So I would simply be throwing a negative factor into her life.

Telling her, I concluded, would be just like those men who confess to an affair long after it's in the past. They're not being "honest", they're just offloading their guilt.

But, about a year ago, against my own best instinct, I told my wife about my CD-ing. I'm still not quite sure why.

And it panned out exactly as I expected. She was shocked, but very quickly made small gestures to reassure me that her love for me was as strong as ever. She even gave me make-up lessons and some of her old clothes, although she made it very clear that she never wanted to see me wearing them. It remains a private activity.

But it quite obviously causes difficulties for her. When we talk about it, as we do from time to time, she does admit that it is something she wishes was not there. She broke down in tears one day and said: "it's the very first thing about you that I don't like" (and we've been together 17 great years).

And to this day I ask myself if I did the right thing in telling her. And I am still not sure.

Bev06 GG
11-20-2008, 04:52 PM
It would appear that many of you have no clue as to what "marriage" means. If that offends anyone I am sorry. But it does apply even to those who have been married and are now divorced, or on number 2 or 3 wife. Marriage is a Sacred obligation for a lifetime, and should be regarded as such. Someone said that "most people who are married shouldn't be." I don't think that "most" is the correct word in that statement. Many people should not be married, for many different reasons. If you are not willing to make the total committment that is necessary for a marriage to work, then you should not get married. Part of that committment is full and complete honesty between both parties. If you cannot, for whatever reason, do that you should not be married!!

The notion that our views of marriage should change because society has changed are ludicrous. Society has not changed in that regard, a segment of society has discarded moral values in favor of "what makes ME happy" values.

To not tell your wife about your CD activities is a total copout. But the time to tell her is BEFORE she becomes your wife. If you want to live with her for the rest of your lives, then you have to be totally honest about who and what you are. If she cannot, or will not, accept that you are a CD, then you need to find someone else.


Stephanie

Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

Thanks Stephanie. You obviously place great value on relationships and respect your partner. Obviously the best time to tell a potential wife/partner is before you committ to spending the rest of your lives together. It really isn't fair on either of you to hide such a big part of your personality away from the person who is supposed to be the closest to you.
I completely understand where a CD is coming from by hiding this part of their life from the woman that they love, but it has got to be one of the biggest risks you could possibly take because the chances are you will get found out. That said because I understand where you are coming from and what you would stand to lose if you are in a long term relationship, it would be very difficult to judge those of you who have chosen to keep quiet, so I wont do. However I dont think trying to justify it by comparing CDing to eating ice cream and watching foreign films in secret is in any way a fair comparison even if it was said tongue in cheek.
Sorry girls, I am trying to understand and I am a supportive partner, but of Cross dressing not deceit and one of the reasons I find it so easy to accept is because I unlike many of my female counterparts was given the choice at the beginning of the relationship to walk away if I didn't like the truth. I really respected him for that and felt very flattered that he loved and respected me enough to entrust me with something so very personal. It is a truly wonderful experience to know that your partner values your relationship and does see it as something to be cherished and dare I say it sacred.
Take care
Bev

Trista
11-20-2008, 05:38 PM
Growing up my family has always been very close. My grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles all stayed married and are still married to this day. (Grandparents have passed away years ago but they stayed married). So when I became married my thought was it would last forever. 12 years went by and problems started happening. My thoughts on marriage changed over those years. Yes I feel it is a commitment but also a commitment can be made with out marriage. Now that works for me. With others things are different. What works for one person may not work for another. The greatest this is finding that person you are strong with, you compliment each other, you bring out the best in each other, and you are truly happy together.

Yes we all have fears too about telling that special person in your life secrets. My ex kept secrets from me, hid the fact he cheated on me, and mentally wore me down with abuse. It took me 12 years to get up the nerve to kick him out. I stayed with him because I wanted it to work out so bad because we were married.

My thoughts have changed a lot since then. I am with my wonderful CDer now and I am just so happy he told me about it. I have been helping him go shopping for clothes and see some myself I want. I get a little jealous because most of the clothes he buys I can't fit into and I wish I could. LOL hopefully that will change as soon as we get our butts in gear and do some exercising.

I don't like secrets either, I want to be told so I know how we can work together to fix the issue or figure out what we can do next. I am glad my SO told me and I told a few secrets of my own. The problem that lies with me is I put all my trust into my previous marriage and sometimes my thoughts run away with me and the trust issue reflects on my SO. It is nothing he has done, it is just my insecurities. I don't want to be hurt.


Maybe it is putting all your time, effort, love, and energy into a relationship and with one event or word it can come crashing down or blossom into something more meaningful and bring two people closer. Who knows. We all are different and have our own thoughts on what is acceptable and what is not. The biggest key to anything in a relationship (IMHO) is communication between the two people and honesty.

Ok that is my :2c:

Thanks for reading

jeniinnylons
11-20-2008, 08:35 PM
I think your CD'ing is less of a problem for them than the lying and sneaking around.

Really see my latest thread about someone I just started to date then make this statement again please. :sad: :cry:

Angie G
11-20-2008, 09:33 PM
My wife knows Bot for many years she didn't and I regret keeping it from her. But I never know how understanding and accepting she would be.And I can see where these girls are coming from in not wanting there fives to know it's just self preservation.:hugs:
Angie

Jacqui
11-20-2008, 10:15 PM
:2c:

It is because CDs love their partners and wish to spare them pain or embarrassment that they stay silent. It is NOT about deception or deceit.

Thank you, Sarah! You are the first person on this board to express my feelings about "the Big Lie."

It is ironic that all of the people who put down "society" for not accepting whatever lifestyle, gender, sexual identity, etc that they want to present....are the same people who don't give "society" a similar right to have a difference of opinion.

If you want to tell whoever whatever you do whenever you do, then do it. If you don't, then don't. Stop judging others who have a different opinion.

Please have an open mind which is what you want everyone else to have.

A secret kept to avoid hurting the one you love is better than a secret revealed that causes you to lose the one you love.
(MJ, I'm sorry, hon, I think of you when I write this)

And don't say, "well, if she really loved you, it wouldn't matter." Have an open mind. She has a right not to like it!

battybattybats
11-21-2008, 12:26 AM
I find it disgusting that there is so much anthropological ignorance and cultural and religious bias in this thread.

1. Marriage is not and never ever has been throughout all recorded history a practice belonging to just one religious or cultural tradition. As such while it may be sacred it is not sacred for all.

2. Not all marriage definitions are the same. Therefore is a heteronormative abrahamic mongomaus marriage is sacred then so to is a animist polygamous one. Either all religious marriages are sacred or none are.

3. Many cultures marriages are not lifelong. Many exist till children reach a certain age or for a certain number of years.

And finally there still exists a right to privacy in marriage. This is essential to protect people from abusive and controlling partners. No human rights are ceded in a marriage.

And as almost everyone keeps some secrets from their partner until the approximately 1 in 3 SO's whove had affairs fess up to their CD husbands or for that matter the number who have had sex with dogs (i don't recall the percentage but it was over 1% of the general female population) which is unethical unlike CDing then let us stop considering deception as purely a CD thing!

Now everyone please remember this is an international, multi-cultural forum and as net use and English language use grows you'll be dealling with more and more people from different traditions and belief systems.

So please learn a bit about cultural diversity! Stop thinking of marriage purely from a 20th Century Heteronormative Judeo-Christian Monogamous standpoint and deal with the reality of the rest of the world!

noeleena
11-21-2008, 05:02 AM
hi.... this is a open can of worms ..wow...(( marrage )) what we have in mind here is really a uion of two people.. the coming to gether of two people to have babys . childen ..to be a help to each other . to love each other to show kindness . . to, be a friend ..a soul mate.. to live to gether all ways .. thats the ideal .. now lets get back to real life is this the case ..ill leave that open ..........i am 61 . we jos & i have been to gether over 35 years. we still live in our own home . we had our marrage anould last year . we have 3 grown up kids & 5 grand kids with one more on the way . i did not do the dressing side of things . i knew at 10 i was not all boy . there was a part of me a girl. did i hide that ..no.. i could not tell you what was going on in side of me how could i . i did not know.. we were married in the 70.s i was 24 & yes like others up & down like a yo yo . its a wonder we stayed to gether . its a wonder i got through life really ... i told jos 11 years ago i was a women as said the bomb went off the start of the 11 years hell . the dust has settled now & we get on with life our kids as well we all went through it . i think we all will get through it . the main ?? is would i have told jos before we got to gether . ill not answer for any one other than my self here ...... yes...... had i known 35 years ago. i could not . i did not even know my self in this regard .. that i as a women . would be let free . we are programed even if we dont like it . its there....... my program was set to start 11 years ago evey thing inside of me just changed & i knew what was going to happen .. please dont put on us . what others have tryed to do for years. i have heard it all before . i have 50 years of trying to be what i was told . a man yet i knew i was not . we do not lie or decive .. we just dont know.. we could not just go up to some one & say hi i am a women .. as they look at us they see a man ....hey come on whats going on here we are women just have the male body. so get real we did not have a say as to how we looked at birth. no say at all.....those who dress may be not all the time . they like me had no say ...so what we have is i understand now ..i am wired both male & female . not every one is . we are all different ....so have you concidered this. choices can be made by people as to things they do or not ... some of us dont have that we dont have that choice . being us . part of the problem is people dont know us or what we are going trough .. the real us .
something that has been said is we live in different countys so what applies to one may be different for others so this needs to be concidered as well .....i belive understanding of were we are in all of this needs to be looked at in a way that does not belittle us . so if there are things said here give us the curtisy of explaining why we can not tell others or for some of us our s o . or pratners... ...noeleena...

RobynP
11-23-2008, 01:44 PM
I think that some wives are really okay with crossdressing... However, I have not heard one wife who was okay with the hiding, the secrecy, and the lying that happens when a CD does not tell his wife.

In every relationship, husband-wife, parent-child, manager-employee, there is a certain amount of trust that is expected of all parties. When that trust is violated in some manner, it may be difficult or impossible to rebuild the trust. And for husbands and wivess, if you cannot trust the one you love with your whole heart and soul, then who can you trust?

Robyn

sandra-leigh
11-23-2008, 02:19 PM
I think that some wives are really okay with crossdressing... However, I have not heard one wife who was okay with the hiding, the secrecy, and the lying that happens when a CD does not tell his wife.


My first response is to agree with you -- but then I remember all of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" arrangements that the various members have mentioned, a great many of which are of the nature of "If you are going to do this, hide it from me: better that you should lie than that I should have to think about it". (Some of the arrangements are, though, instead "I guess it isn't a deal breaker for me, at least in theory, but I'm not sure I could stand seeing it in practice.")

Trinni
11-23-2008, 03:24 PM
Earlier in this thread I posted as the devils advocate bring up some hypothetical parallels to secrecy in a marriage. This time I am bringing up my side which is not hypothetical but might be the same situation for others on this board.

As I have said before, I have been dressing and having the feeling of dressing since I was young. However like I have also said before my feeling for dressing goes in waves. I have had times where I felt like dressing a lot and when I have had those feeling and the chance to do so, I have. There have been other times when I have not felt like dressing at all and didn't even give it a thought.

Prior to meeting my wife I was on one of those waves where it was not even a thought. I didn't get the feeling again until after a few years after we were married. I didn't say anything before (like a lot of people on this board say you should do) because I did not have the feeling to dress at the time, it had been so long since I felt like dressing, and I didn't think I would get that feeling again. It did not even enter my mind because I was in a different place at that time.

My wife an I discussed almost every aspect of how we felt about religion, raising children, sex and our future. What we did not do was dig into our past relationships or anything like that. We new we loved each other with all of our hearts and didn't care who each other had slept with. That is even a side note because my dressing never had anything to do with my sexual preference.

Now I do admit I did not tell her when the feeling came back which was wrong, but at that point I was too scared of causing major problems with our marriage because my family is every thing to me and I don't want to lose that. I admit I do cd but not very often because it is not worth losing my family over it. We have had very deep discussions about sex and sexual preference for us and others, we are very open about others doing what ever they want but so far from our discussions, she likes the fact I am a bit rugged. This morning she said I'm not like the boyfriends she had before she met me. They were pretty boys and she loves how I am ruggedly handsome.

Since, I have thought about all of the things I never mentioned like when I was a kid I stole a candy bar, I snuck into a buildings private pool and went swimming, I got into a car of a friend who took his mothers car late one night for a ride and did not have a license and I'm sure if I think real hard I could remember other things I forgot to mention but it was not something I said to myself, I am going to hide this from her.

I am saying this because the way it usually comes across it the people who has dressed before getting married made a conscious decision to hide this from there SO or future wife pretending to be someone they are not and that is not always the case.

JaytoJillian
11-23-2008, 03:37 PM
This is NO place for "holier than thou" BS. Ugh. There is nothing sacred about having chosen the wrong person. Boneheaded move on my part AND hers, but definitely not sacred.

waspookie6
11-23-2008, 03:40 PM
I think that some wives are really okay with crossdressing... However, I have not heard one wife who was okay with the hiding, the secrecy, and the lying that happens when a CD does not tell his wife.

In every relationship, husband-wife, parent-child, manager-employee, there is a certain amount of trust that is expected of all parties. When that trust is violated in some manner, it may be difficult or impossible to rebuild the trust. And for husbands and wivess, if you cannot trust the one you love with your whole heart and soul, then who can you trust?

Robyn

Robyn, this was the contention we faced...the loss of trust when he didn't discuss this with me first. What was more hurtful was wondering what I had done wrong because before he came out to me, he was downright rude and began ignoring me as if I was a piece of furniture in the room. I know now that came from his insecurities but we'd discussed everything under the sun prior, why not just tell me when it first came up for him?

It will take years to get that trust back in our relationship no matter what. He will wonder if I'm upset at him for dressing, I'll wonder where he is if he's 10 minutes late getting home.
We'll both be wrong. How to fix it is a very difficult task.

Christinedreamer
11-23-2008, 04:11 PM
I was a lucky one in that my wife (now ex) knew on our wedding night I was a CD because she picked up on my fascination with her wedding night peignoir and asked me if I wanted to wear it. the answer? YES!!

From that point on she was fully involved in all aspects of my CDing and loved it.

Our issues actually started with the usual husband wife conflicts and one of the things I have found that women do a LOT (so much so that is the brunt of many comedians' jokes) is to respond with "nothing" when queried by the husband as to what I wrong when something quite obviously IS wrong and seriously so.

To me that is a proverbial slap in the face to a concerned and loving husband that also telegraphs that "I do not trust you enough to share with you". Given that response a few hundred times, a husband will eventually begin actually NOT caring and just walk away saying "whatever".

So as you can see from my viewpoint at least, that honesty in informing a spouse about a major part of your personality takes a great deal of trust and bravery.

I believe we as CDers (or husbands in general) have the right to expect the same level of honesty and integrity from our wives or SOs.

I fail to see where possession of a vagina affords a free pass on honesty.

In old farmers logic, "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".

mklinden2010
11-23-2008, 06:14 PM
Marriage is sacred?

Fine.

That's God's business, if God cares to do anything about it.

I think not telling your SO can be disgusting, sure. The wiser, braver, and kinder thing is to stop wasting your (common) time and energy on unrevealed behavior and desires and get on with explaining how you feel and what you think you want to do.

Yes, it can be disgusting, but it's more sad, I think. Sad because some poor guy got himself into a deal without, perhaps, fully understanding himself, or, trusting the person he's with for, er, life. Play your cards and live your life. Perhaps that's God's plan for you...

My policy, after my first wife said, "Oh? That's all that was bothering you?" is to just get my thoughts and feelings out there early and often. She unloaded a ton of dresses on me when we divorced (about something else entirely) and I wish I had had room to keep all that stuff.

My second wife, now deceased, was slightly worried about being "outed" at work because of what I was doing, which I thought was both sad and hilarious. I think they would have said, "Man, you must really love this guy to keep him around with all that going on." She would have said, "Well, he's not just tall in one direction..."

People pair up and stay together because they know the other person, and know themselves, and they want to be together. Being open about yourself may close some doors, but it can open others... Be optimistic, not desperate.

Preachers, churches, states, and laws can't really stop "pairing" behavior and the rules within churches and within states are to regulate this fact of life as best can be done from outside a relationship. For example: "If you have problems, we'll try to help you work it out... somehow. Even if we have to beat you up to do it."

The odd thing about the gay marriage thing, when you think about it, is not that people want to marry, but that they want to marry even IF they don't legally have to, or, have a right to...

I get the desire to get married to someone, I just wonder if the former "gay lifestyle" is going to vanish when one half can start saying things to the other half like, "Look, either we get married and do this right or you can forget about ever having sex with me again."

Welcome back to the "wonderful" 1950s - and perfect families.

Marjory
11-23-2008, 06:26 PM
Tessa, if you find it so disgusting then don't read the da*n threads. The last thing I need is someone with all the answers and a more moral then though attitude telling me how I should live my life. You should become the Dear Abby of the CD set if you feel so strongly about things.

Kelly DeWinter
11-23-2008, 07:20 PM
Girls, I just checked Tessa profile, and it looks as if she has been banned. I'm not sure why, It might be time to let this thread expire quietly.

Kelly DeWinter
11-23-2008, 07:24 PM
maryklinden, I'm not sure, but are you Miss Tessa ?

mklinden2010
11-23-2008, 07:48 PM
Me, Ms. Tessa?

I may agree with Ms. Tessa, in a way, but I hope I would have chosen my words, or, word, more carefully if I were her.

No, I'm just Mary Kay Linden, and there's very little in my life I'd use the word "disgusting" for...

Almost nothing, in fact.

AmandaM
11-23-2008, 07:55 PM
You have to be careful in redefining marriage. Words have power. You can potentially change the context of the society you live in. This can be dangerous. Think long and hard before changing a social paradigm.

MichelleA
11-23-2008, 08:08 PM
I didn't like Tessa's attitude and what she wrote, it didn't sit well with me, and it immediately told me that she was not only young, but " angry ", angry with herself and about herself, and as someone said .. she just wanted to " rant ".
She also seems confused. And I don't accept her tone and her insults. So.. basically I will just say my piece....actually to give my :2c:.
I have been married for a long time, will be 40 years next year, and been crossdressing since age 8. I didn't tell my wife when I met her, simply for fear of being rejected, for fear of losing her. Because she is a product of our society, and our society does not accept crossdressing and most people ( my wife included ) do not really understand the mechanics of crossdressing, and the issues relating to it. Therefore, in order to avoid problems, serious problems I might add, lots if not most cds decide to keep it a secret, and crossdress in secret or in private when they are alone. In my case, as I got older, I noticed that my desire to crossdress grew and got more intense each time. I have to say I loved to crossdress from the first moment I started doing it, but as I got older, not only did I like it more and more but I found myself needing it more and doing it more. It also started to occupy more of my time, I started to think about it more and more . I'm not complaining btw, not at all .
Eventually the day came when all of a sudden, the opportunity was there for me to come out and tell my wife about my passion. And I did ! It happened when she was throwing out some old pantyhose and stockings, and she said just get rid of all these nylons and throw it in the garbage, and I instinctively blurted out " NO....!!!Please don't...... and I heard myself say to her...... I want to wear it......please don't throw it away ".
It was that fast.......and she was surprised to say the least. And confused. But she didn't get angry, she actually told me she wished I had said something about me being a cd when we first got married. But....one can't undo the past as they say......
Today she knows I cd, she is not crazy about the idea, she would much rather I be a " normal macho " husband, but she knows I can't be that. So we don't talk about the subject, but we both know its there.
I don't feel I deceived her, I don't feel I betrayed her. Not at all. If we lived in a more tolerant and better society I would have definitely told her of my passion for crossdressing. No question. But I loved her from the moment I met her and I still do today. I am just trying to find a way to balance my life, keeping her happy as she deserves to be and also taking care of my love to crossdress, which happens to be very important to me.
I hope I made sense here .....I would love to get girls's thoughts on this... I feel its so very important to communicate and exchange thoughts.

I love this forum, simply love it and I welcome any comments........

Michelle

gmss
11-23-2008, 08:37 PM
@Miss Tessa:

It's not as simple as saying that CDers should be open and honest with their wifes.

From reading this forum over the the last year and 1/2, it's my distinct feeling that many people here did not really "get out and about" until after the signing of the marriage papers.

And I have seen more than one person in this forum go the honesty route, only to have their marriage disolve, which normally drives the guy into deep depression. Not good.

I can barely keep my marriage together as it is. Outing myself, even to just my wife, would surely kill what little candle light remains.

Everyone is different.

As for me, I am quite sure I could not handle the depression of a breakup on these circumstances. Maybe others can, but I'm sure that I can't.

I congratulate those with the strength, tenacity, and courage to be reveal this side of themself to their wife, and hope that massive understanding follows.

So, TFN, I will continue to peek out the closet door to see what life is like out there.

Regards.

battybattybats
11-24-2008, 12:47 AM
You have to be careful in redefining marriage. Words have power. You can potentially change the context of the society you live in. This can be dangerous. Think long and hard before changing a social paradigm.

Who is redefining marriage?

Please read my posts about other cultures.

I have close aborigninal relatives even though I am not myself aboriginal.

I have met people from a wide variety of cultures and I have family members who are Anthropologists and have discussed this issue with a number of Athropologists.

If anyone is redefining marriage it's the people who are trying over a handful of centuries to impose an exclusive heterosexual monogamy on a practice and institution of varied polgamy, varied duration and mult-sex marriage traditions that worked successfully in my country for over 50,000 years.

So please Amanda, stop redefining marriage. Your definition is extremely recent, comes from only a tiny proportion of the worlds cultures and has caused misery to countless millions of people who have been denied their traditional marriage practices and discriminated against and made second-class citizens in their own lands when it was imposed over them by force.

It is your definition of marriage that is non-traditional, that is new, that causes known harm, that is re-defining marriage.

So please take your own advice.

suzy
11-24-2008, 01:33 AM
Whew; wow.... this post sure stirred up some comments....so in light of that it is good to air our individual viewpoints. Here is mine.

I don't know how marriage began, (religious roots, socio-economic roots or whatever) but I do know that women have throughout time, (and in many countries still do) been treated with much less respect than men. Think of the "honor killings" that go on daily in the Middle East and in fact the two teens killed in California recently.

The phrase "Rule of Thumb" came from the rule of law (common law) that a man could beat his wife, should she need it, but not with a stick any larger than his thumb!

Today women are treated with much more respect, especially in democratic societies and forward thinking/leaning countries.

I also have seen statistics showing in America at least, more people have been divorced than not. It didn't used to be that way. Something changed.

Today a lot of people get married for a variety of reasons and when times get tough they bail. I will make no judgements if they are right or wrong, especially in the vein that more have been divorced than stayed together.

Another piece of the equation is that there are undoubtedly many married people who are staying married but are not happy. When those figures are factored in then the scales are greatly tipped in favor of divorce as a means of escape seeking happiness.

We are talking about relationships and the love two people have for each other. I do agree however that marriage should be transparent. There shouldn't be any hiding things from your spouse. If it is a must then I suppose that one should consider a divorce before breaking our honor and marriage vows. My :2c:

Thank you for taking the time to read my viewpoint. :hugs:

Stephanie Scott
11-24-2008, 01:35 AM
Who is redefining marriage?

Please read my posts about other cultures.

I have close aborigninal relatives even though I am not myself aboriginal.

I have met people from a wide variety of cultures and I have family members who are Anthropologists and have discussed this issue with a number of Athropologists.

If anyone is redefining marriage it's the people who are trying over a handful of centuries to impose an exclusive heterosexual monogamy on a practice and institution of varied polgamy, varied duration and mult-sex marriage traditions that worked successfully in my country for over 50,000 years.

So please Amanda, stop redefining marriage. Your definition is extremely recent, comes from only a tiny proportion of the worlds cultures and has caused misery to countless millions of people who have been denied their traditional marriage practices and discriminated against and made second-class citizens in their own lands when it was imposed over them by force.

It is your definition of marriage that is non-traditional, that is new, that causes known harm, that is re-defining marriage.

So please take your own advice.

Since marriage is defined by God, then quite clearly, neither you nor I have the authority to redefine it. Just because imperfect humans have screwed it up and tried to redefine a divine institution created for the benefit of God's creation -- stability of homes, establishment of the smallest churches, unity between man and woman, and of course procreation -- doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater OR accept as truth the attempts of misguided people to define it any way that makes them happy. Just because other cultures have different definitions doesn't mean they are right or that their definition is equally valid.

Can't wait for the Cannibal Party to demand equal treatment for their cultural tradition of feasting on their spouse(s) at the end of the wedding... I mean, who are WE to say that definition isn't valid?

The whole movement that is currently trying to define marriage in any way they please is preposterous. Words mean things. Marriage won't mean anything anymore. Just beause it is always executed imperfectly (because we are so deeply flawed and sinful as human beings), doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to truth.

When one understands God's desire for us in marriage, then he understands the beauty of it. By sacrificing for our spouse and engaging in mutual unselfish service (which God calls for a husband and wife to do), as well as meshing the unique characteristics distinctly held by men and women, we see His perfect plan and we understand how our needs/desires get met by the other.

God's plan and definition came LONG before the aborigines... Frankly, I could care a less what they think. I only care what God thinks.

Louise C
11-24-2008, 01:58 AM
Well, i've just read through all the previous posts and think that this is obviously a subject that people feel deeply about one way or the other.
In a perfect world we would all live happily together with our spouses, girlfriends or boyfriends and crossdress to our hearts content, but that ain't gonna happen!
I told my wife 22 years ago and she has been fairly accepting on the surface and never threatened to leave me because she loves me. I don't think i realise how much it hurt her when i told her and just how difficult it was to accept. I worry about this now, years later, even though things are ok between us.
Relationships are all different and you just can't have one simple rule to cover everything. Weigh it up very carefully before coming out to your wife, i think some would admit to having been happier not knowing!

Felix
11-24-2008, 02:00 AM
Intereting topic and hope ya don't mind me adding here. I have been married and divorced but I definitely did not just bail out, I faught for my marriage which stupidly for me nearly had me having a nervous breakdown after 11 years. That was because I tried to do all the things I was brought up to believe ya know like what the marriage vows mean and also the old fashioned thing of 'you make ya bed and ya lay in it' which was ingrained in me by my mother. I have recently been handfasted and for me this is just as significant as the marriage vows I took way back then in 1988. I do think in todays society that some peeps do bail at the first major hurdle but thats because society has made it easier for them to do so!! Me myself even though I have been divorced and for good reason in the end would not just bail out I would still fight for something I thought was worth fighting for!!! I also believe in the old saying,'If you love someone let them go. If they are yours they will come back, if they are not then they won't.' Well it's along those lines anyways!
I would never attempt to redefine marriage myself and across cultures these things are different! Anyways thats my :) xx Felix :hugs:

Satrana
11-24-2008, 02:01 AM
I don't feel I deceived her, I don't feel I betrayed her. Not at all. If we lived in a more tolerant and better society I would have definitely told her of my passion for crossdressing. No question. e

I agree with the sentiment. How many people would be critical of a person who decided to hide a deep, dark guilty secret such as childhood abuse. A person has a right to withhold secrets about themselves if they honestly believe that the secret will not impact upon the relationship.

Also as you point out often it is the CD who is the only one who can properly judge what is the best course of action because their SO will not be able to get past the irrational prejudice that society has imposed on her thoughts about such matters.

Although that can be attacked as wronging your SO as it takes away their right to know and to decide for themselves, an even greater wrong would happen if a perfectly good relationship was destroyed because of a change of perception based upon prejudice.

Imagine a person who was a model citizen whom everyone liked and admired and who was trusted. Then you discover that 30 years ago he was jailed for a crime. Now you frame your thoughts about this person around teh fact he is a convicted felon and your perception changes. You happily throw out all the good things this person has done and view him with suspicion and mistrust.

Everyone makes mistakes, some make bigger mistakes than others and pay for it. If they truly repent and forge ahead making the best of their life and are good to family and friends then they have a right to keep their history secret. Shame on those who would judge that person for one mistake and ignore who they are today.

In the case of CDs our secret is not a mistake, it is just who we are. It is society which thinks we made a mistake and will change their perception of who we are based upon prejudice and ignore the real person standing before them.

sissystephanie
11-24-2008, 02:14 AM
I do hope Tessa did not get banned for this thread. because she sure did stir up a lively debate. Yes, she did show her lack of real knowledge and experience, but she did express her viewpoints as she is entitled to!

The message here was not meant to redefine marriage, but more likely to say how a real marriage, as understood in the context of the culture of most of us on this forum, should work. As I said in my earlier post, judging from the comments in this, and many other threads, many people on this forum don't appear to have the foggiest idea as to what a marriage is all about!! And that includes a lot of married CD's!(That might get me some emails!!)

I believe it was Suzy who said that more people divorce in America now then ever before. and she wondered why. Because they get married for all the wrong reasons!! Most young people who marry today don't even really know the person they are marrying! And if those people are not going to be honest with each other from the beginning, how can the marriage last. Yes, at age 76 I guess I can be classified as old fashioned in my way of thinking. Especially about marriage! But you know what! That way worked very well for several hundred years!! Marriage is, or should be, based on LOVE!! Not sexual ability, social status, power, or anything else. Just LOVE, which means totally open and honest communication between the two parties. Without that, there is no true love! My :2c:

Stephanie

Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

battybattybats
11-24-2008, 02:37 AM
Since marriage is defined by God, then quite clearly, neither you nor I have the authority to redefine it.

Which God? Ahura Mazda? Camasotz? Quetzalcoatl? Papa Boa? The Rainbow Serpent? Odin? Aphrodite perhaps? Dagon? Osiris?

See there's a lot of religious beliefs and a lot of religious deifinitions of marriage. That makes applying one definition of mariage from your faith over people of other religions as wrong as having one from another religion applied over yours!


Just because imperfect humans have screwed it up and tried to redefine a divine institution created for the benefit of God's creation -- stability of homes, establishment of the smallest churches, unity between man and woman, and of course procreation -- doesn't mean we should throw the baby out with the bathwater OR accept as truth the attempts of misguided people to define it any way that makes them happy.

Except that there is more than one divine institution of marriage.

Exodus 22:21
King James Bible
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt
And marriage was very different in Egypt to Israel! So then it's wrong to impose your religious view of marriage over people from other faiths. The Bible says so!


Just because other cultures have different definitions doesn't mean they are right or that their definition is equally valid.

No more nor less than your own. You cannot prove the truth of your religion nor can any other religion prove theirs. All any has is faith and as so there is no justification for any to impose over the others.


Can't wait for the Cannibal Party to demand equal treatment for their cultural tradition of feasting on their spouse(s) at the end of the wedding... I mean, who are WE to say that definition isn't valid?

And even of the cannibal traditions of the world which one has that practice? And how can you say yours is more valid? But in your hypothetical the philsophical principles of the enlightenment while they entitle the cannibal to his cultural tradition would also entitle the spouse to decline consent, and without uncoerced informed consent he may not ethically do so.


The whole movement that is currently trying to define marriage in any way they please is preposterous. Words mean things. Marriage won't mean anything anymore. Just beause it is always executed imperfectly (because we are so deeply flawed and sinful as human beings), doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to truth.

Indeed. So please cease imposing your Abrahamic religious tradition modified further to remove polygamy and to grant equality to the wife and to remove the 'husbands prerogative' that enabled him to legally rape his wife, and modified further to allow divorce etc over the rest of the people in your own country who come from a variety of traditions with different definitions of marriage many of which are older than your entire recorded history.


When one understands God's desire for us in marriage, then he understands the beauty of it. By sacrificing for our spouse and engaging in mutual unselfish service (which God calls for a husband and wife to do), as well as meshing the unique characteristics distinctly held by men and women, we see His perfect plan and we understand how our needs/desires get met by the other.

Thats fine for you when speaking about your own religious tradition. But many do not share that! So please stop being so bigoted as to demand everyone in the whole world follow your faith and it's rules. You would not like it if you were forced to follow another faith and it's practices... so "do unto others..." and stop considering only your own faith and its rules as valid for everyone else.

I respect your faith and your right to it and it's practices as being right for you. But you should respect the faith of others and their practices as being right for them.

Otherwise we should impose our faiths on you and you would not like that.


God's plan and definition came LONG before the aborigines... Frankly, I could care a less what they think. I only care what God thinks.

You cannot prove that and the material evidence does not support that. And while you may hold that on faith the Aboriginal people hold on faith their own beliefs many of which involve the rainbow serpent creating the land and a continuous culture from the dawn of creation till now.

So then if your faith is to be respected by others you must respect the faiths of others.

So if you think having your heart torn from your living chest on an altar to the Vampire-Bat God Camasotz of Central and Southern America would be bad then stop imposing your faith over the lives of others who do not share it or it is valid for a Camasotz-worshipper to sacrifice you to their God.

vivianann
11-24-2008, 02:59 AM
Yes marriage is supposed to be a sacred vow between a man and a woman with God as their witness, however most marriages are not sacred any more:sad:. I do agree you should not hide anything from your wife because if she finds out then you have lost her trust, and good luck getting her trust back. I will not judge anybody because it is not my place to judge anybody. I did tell my wife before I married her about my crossdressing, she was supportive about it until after we said our I do's, then she laid down the law and said she does not want me to crossdress, so she was the deciever in my case. Crossdressing was an issue because I refused to stop crossdressing. I did not hide it from her and told her when I was going to dress because I needed too. I finally quit crossdressing 7 yrs into the marriage because she was raising too much hell with me over me crossdressing, I went into a deep depression because of not being able to cd. the marriage finally ended 10 yrs later, after the divorce decree was signed I went home and put a dress on, after I started wearing dresses my depression went away and I am very much happier. I have always been up front about my cd ing when I am getting into a serious relationship with a woman, and yes they do end the relatioship because I cd, However to me it is better that the relationship is over than to live in misery by being in a relationship with a woman who will not accept me as I am. Hopefully one day I may find a GG who will accept Vivian as a part of me.

Bethany_Anne_Fae
11-24-2008, 04:36 AM
Which God? Ahura Mazda? Camasotz? Quetzalcoatl? Papa Boa? The Rainbow Serpent? Odin? Aphrodite perhaps? Dagon? Osiris?
See there's a lot of religious beliefs and a lot of religious deifinitions of marriage. That makes applying one definition of mariage from your faith over people of other religions as wrong as having one from another religion applied over yours!

I was about to weigh in on the whole "God" issue but you covered it excellently as always :) There are moments when I get really perturbed by the the whole my God says you have to live this way shtick or else you are WRONG that its no wonder people turn away from religion itself... especially when it comes to marriage.

As for the whole "disgusting" part of this thread... well, Marriage, Life, Cding etc is what YOU and your partner wish to make of it. If your faith determines such things, then more power to you, but don't go shoving your beliefs down other people's throats. Thats how wars are started.

Zarabeth

Tamara Croft
11-24-2008, 10:49 AM
Seeing as Miss Tessa is done (banned) this thread is also done.. take your religious discussions to the section created for it, NOT in here!!!