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View Full Version : I say, " Enough With THe Labels Already!!"



jillleanne
11-26-2008, 09:02 AM
Is anyone else tired of being labelled? And who decided we needed to be labelled anyway? And who did the labelling? Let's see now, from what I can tell, this labelling has gotten so confusing, even we do not know what label to use. A conspiracy by governments maybe? I hope not!
Ok, we have cd, tg, ts, MtoF, FtoM, fetishist, pre-op, post-op, non-op, t-girl, t-gurl, straight, poly, androgynous, and on, and on, and on. I say, who cares? Let's get rid of the labels, no one even understands what they all mean anyway and half the people that use them use them in the wrong context anyway!!! Sheez!!! And then we get even crazier when we combine our gender label with our sexual preferences. Good heavens, now we are a cd with bi-curious tendencies, non-op , with SRS plans for the future hoping to find an understanding someone. Understanding? How can anyone be understanding when we can't even figure out who you are with all these stupid labels? People aren't some toy you buy at the store, take home, figure out how to use, play with until you are bored with it or find out it's not exactly what you are looking for, and return or throw it out? But that's exactly what labels do for us.
I say we once and for all say Nay Nay to labels. No more labels. If you want to know something , ask. If someone needs to know something, tell them up front, no hiding. And then maybe just maybe, we can start to appreciate people as people, you know, human beings that are born into this world, get to spend a few years here, and then die and move on to where-ever.
If a label is needed, why can't we simply be considered gender enhanced people? Do we really need all these labels?

PortiaHoney
11-26-2008, 09:10 AM
I think you missed some......

And by the time you do have a label and fit into someones little box, you change what you do as we humans are all so changeable. Can I tick "all of the above"?

:heehee:

Sara Jessica
11-26-2008, 09:14 AM
...but my perspective considers some important things:


I subscribe to the existence of a tg spectrum or continuum
Such a spectrum is horizontal rather than hierarchical
The labels are simply descriptive
Labels help provide a means for self-discovery


We are all vastly different and the terms of description help us to convey detail about who we are. If everyone runs around saying that they're simply gender gifted, we would know nothing about what makes them tick and their place in the world in dealing with this tg thing.

The terms along the continuum should not be used to suppress others or suggest that one form of feminine expression is better than another.


If someone needs to know something, tell them up front, no hiding.

And tell them what? I find that the labels as we know them help me to describe exactly who I am and what my tg nature is all about.

suzanne
11-26-2008, 09:19 AM
The very fact we are in this forum (other than GG's) means that we don't fit neatly into the category "Male" as society intends for us. So why should there be more labelling once we get here? Because we are all individuals, each of us has some trait that slightly mismatches with this category or that, so the category that best describes me is "ME"

Alex!
11-26-2008, 09:32 AM
Labels aren't inherently bad. How people deal with them can be, however. I am, for example, a white male. Folks who are smart know this does not entirely define a person - there's more to it. But it is a bit of useful data. I'm also a crossdresser. I don't have a problem with that. I love cheesecake, too. So I am a crossdressing white male cheesecakeologist.

I personally like to organize, sort and label stuff. I don't do this out of some need to control, but for two reasons - its fun and it helps me understand stuff.

Annie D
11-26-2008, 09:42 AM
White, male, husband, father, grandfather, teacher, coach, crossdresser. Which label should use?

Let me see now......did you say what I thought you said about what you thought that I said? Words and labels mean different things to different people and we're just really trying to communicate with one another.

Paige.
11-26-2008, 09:49 AM
I didn't even realize I carried a "GG" label until I came here.

StephanieT
11-26-2008, 09:50 AM
Labels are used for a number of things. Think about some of the acronyms we use to describe others.

There is WASP, DINK, Yuppie, etc. Now if somebody will only publish a translation dictionary.

Cary
11-26-2008, 09:59 AM
They can label me all they want. I'm use to it. Labels make people feel orderly. As for me, things are always changing. The label I was under last month doesn't fit this month(if it ever did). I AM ME!

Veronica27
11-26-2008, 10:48 AM
I don't mind labels that describe what I do. For instance, I crossdress. That makes me a crossdresser. That's fine. What bothers me is labels that try to describe first and foremost what I am without reference to what I do. The prime example is transgendered. I do not know what that is supposed to mean, and even if I have a definition (there are many), they are so broad and all inclusive that they are not an accurate description of me or what I do. It implies that I cross some gender divide, but I have no confusion over my gender, or dislike of it. Nor do I feel that I have a female side that is wanting to be released. I simply enjoy the adventure of being a man who has discovered the pleasures of playing the female role, which is entirely different from dressing to become my own form of woman.

The problem, as I see it, is that we are searching for a word to describe a large community of individuals who are all different from one another. No one word fits all, but each carries a lot of baggage in the form of stereotypes. These are confusing not only to ourselves but more importantly to those who are close to us. Yes, we are a large community and maybe some form of commonality might speed up public recognition of our cause, but by attempting to emphasize our similarities instead of our differences, we often cause a lot of heartache and problems for ourselves.

The trend in support groups and forums, is to be all inclusive or open, and that is fine because we can learn a great deal about human nature in general by exploring our diversity. However, I also see a need for support that is more specific to each individuals circumstances, in order to allay the fears of spouses who can be overwhelmed by confusion over such diversity, and feel insecure about where they and their husbands are. Some of the labels in use do little to offset these fears.

Veronica

kathtx
11-26-2008, 11:10 AM
There's nothing wrong with labels. Labels are useful shorthand, as long as we remember that they're only shorthand.

If I describe myself as a "Democrat" or "Republican" or "Libertarian" that label lets you make reasonable inferences about many of my beliefs, and it's simpler than telling you a list of my positions on various issues. Of course political thought can't be neatly classified into a one-dimensional set of boxes, so people refine and extend the categories: someone might be a "Rockefeller Republican" which is (in the USA) a label for a particular (nearly extinct) species of socially liberal Republicans. And so on.

Labels become a problem in several ways. One, when we stereotype, which essentially means imposing our own view of a label onto a particular individual. Two, when we limit ourselves to existing labels and try to fit hexagonal pegs into a choice of round, square, and star-shaped holes.

Kath (married MTF TG, lesbian, democrat, scientist, PhD, left-handed, tall,
Linux & Mac user, blah blah blah)

tanyalynn51
11-26-2008, 11:13 AM
It seems to me that if we ditched all of the other labels, we would come under one label. Everyone on this forum whose posts that I have read obviously feel different degrees of femininity. we all also express it in different ways and degrees. I consider myself a full Transsexual, but in some ways may be less feminine looking than some of you others. I have to act very masculine at my job, but when I went to dinner with a gg friend from work a few weeks ago, she was stunned by how sensitive I was when I let my guard down. I hate big labels, but understand the smaller ones that define who we are on here. They dont lock us into something, but maybe they help us understand each other.

Karren H
11-26-2008, 11:28 AM
I actually don't mind labels.. Think of it more like a consumer protection kind of thing.. Like "this product contains the following ingredients" lol


I didn't even realize I carried a "GG" label until I came here.

In your case Paige add the labels.. Pretty, Cute, Inteligent.. Sexy...

Yeah... Those are the labels I love!! In the grand scheme of things... getting bent out of shape because someone labels you... ... Isn't even on my radar..

NancyFL
11-26-2008, 11:33 AM
The only label I like to use is "Me".
I am my own unique person.
Crossdressing does not define who I am, it is just a small part of the whole "Me".

Sarah Martin
11-26-2008, 11:39 AM
Labels are OK as they let people know, broadly, what they are going to get in advance.


Sarah

Label: Just add alcohol.....

Jess_cd32
11-26-2008, 11:42 AM
I didn't even realize I carried a "GG" label until I came here.

And I didn't even know what GG stood for when I came here:heehee:

Jessicaparkson
11-26-2008, 12:14 PM
Terms can be used for "good" or "bad". When used here it is simply a way to help yourself and others understand you and possibly help and offer encouragement. When used by people in a derogatory means then they can turn against us. But that is only if you let them. Weigh the two sides.

Maria2222
11-26-2008, 12:32 PM
Before I consider this information, I'll need your model number and serial number. They're on the bottom of your left foot.
:heehee:

Deborah Jane
11-26-2008, 02:05 PM
The only label i need is
Blonde end facing upwards!! :D

Sarah...
11-26-2008, 03:08 PM
What bothers me is labels that try to describe first and foremost what I am without reference to what I do. The prime example is transgendered.

Yeah, that's a really good point. And it may well be true for many folks.

As for me, I actually love the TG label precisely because it covers such a huge range. I'm at a particular point in my life now, and that might need a particular label. I expect to move on at some time in the future to another stage in my life, which will probably need a new label. But it's better if I just keep the existing one and re-use it.

Otherwise, you could just meet me, talk to me, call me Sarah... and make up your own mind and your own label for me!

Sarah...

Phyliss
11-26-2008, 04:50 PM
Much like a library, perhaps we could have some form of a "Dewey Decimal System" as it relates to "US"

Please note the sarcasm

AmandaM
11-26-2008, 04:57 PM
I look at labels, the good ones, as a way to figure out where I am on the gender spectrum. I don't like labels like "fag" or "perv".


IIn your case Paige add the labels.. Pretty, Cute, Inteligent.. Sexy...


Paige? Eh, she's okay I guess... :tongueout

Kendra (Tx)
11-26-2008, 05:44 PM
People ask me about my "label" ...I always say "Machine wash, warm...tumble dry on low heat..":heehee:


http://kendra954.com

Kate Simmons
11-26-2008, 07:24 PM
Labels are okay for reference I guess but when it comes to knowing WHO you are, no one can really tell you that. Some folks need labels as they are unsure but the folks who are sure don't need any and who they are as a person is evident.:)

brendaisagirl
11-26-2008, 07:28 PM
Just because someone calls you something does not mean you are that. I am Bi Polar and get called mentally ill a lot. Does not make me mentally ill, I hold down a very good job, have a happy relationship. You have to learn not to wear the label. If you call me a chair, does not make me one.
Brenda

tamarav
11-26-2008, 07:46 PM
Wait, I found my labels. Prada, Ann Taylor, Hydraulic, Jimmy Choes, need more?

The girls at work lost track of the labels even after I gave them a class, with a quiz. They just call me bitch...

Tami

curse within
11-27-2008, 01:53 AM
Labels are needed...You wouldn't go to a store that has everything thrown about with no labels would you? Would you work at a place that doesn't keep track of records ? Labels are a form to orginize things and let you know what you are buying.. Same thing with people...If you are porud of who you are why should it matter what labels people put on you?..As long as it isn't a cruel misleading ,unprofessinal label and sometimes you have to consider the source for those.. Who cares ..

Valerie
11-27-2008, 02:00 AM
and I share the feeling, but it is important to distinguish labeling from evaluating, describing from defining. A city with streets without any names would makes us more aware of the difference of every space in it, but it would be hard to navigate.

Your call to use labels with care and not to become blinded by them is wise.

"What's in a name?"

Valerie :2c:

jillleanne
11-27-2008, 07:31 AM
Ladies, thanks so much for your input on this one. I think it is so wonderful to be able to read all the views on 'labels'. Like anything in life, how we define ourselves( if that's even necessary) comes down to an individual choice and that's what it's all about isn't it, self acceptance. I personally do not use a label as such to define myself( other than gender enhanced), I'm simply me and very comfortable with it. If I were to use a label( by true definition), I'm afraid it would become outdated in a matter of weeks or months as I am a work in progress with no finite ending to my knowledge. My evolution continues daily without warning and I do not interfere with my inner feeling, I simply allow them to lead me where ever they choose and accept it. If society has a need to label me as this or that, my only wish for that would be someday society would rubber-stamped me 'human being', nothing more.
Oh, btw, my GG had no idea what GG meant either until she approved of, and accepted me after coming out to her.

Sara Jessica
11-27-2008, 07:39 AM
The girls at work lost track of the labels even after I gave them a class, with a quiz. They just call me bitch...

Tami

Isn't that a badge of honor??? ;) ...you are definately part of their club!

Sara Jessica
11-27-2008, 08:31 AM
They thought cross-dressing and transsexuality were part of the same continuum, which they're almost certainly not


At risk of over-simplifying things, I see them as in fact being part of the same continuum. Call it a gender spectrum if you will with one end occupied by those who are fetishly interested in perhaps a single article of womens's clothing to the other where you have the fully transitioned TS who lives in total stealth. There's a myriad of possibilities in between which is where most of us reside at any point in time.

And one of the complaints about labels is that one's situation can change and with that, so can the way we label ourselves. If nothing else, the labels which are out there can help us in our own self-introspection.

jillleanne
11-27-2008, 08:33 AM
Well said Kate. Now girl, stop keeping us in suspense, spit it out!!!! lol
Hugs, Jill

jillleanne
11-27-2008, 08:40 AM
Sara, very true girl. I guess alot of all this labelling business has to do with self discovery and acceptance. I long ago learned who I am and totally accept and love who I am. I do not ever question 'me'. I simply go with the flow and am loving it. I also think being 'out' for lack of better word, allows me to fully accept who I am without the need for a label. I mingle almost daily in public en femme and am very comfortable doing so. If someone asks a question, I simply answer it honestly. Education is a powerful tool.

Sarah...
11-27-2008, 08:59 AM
Oh yeah. I forgot. The other thing is, if you don't provide a label, someone will do it for you. Look at Prince. He decided he didn't want that label anymore so he produced one that couldn't be pronounced, only drawn. So he became "the artist formerly known as Prince". Tafkap. And then he took his previous label back and so now he's Prince again.

So, mess with labels at your peril!!

Sarah...

sometimes_miss
11-27-2008, 09:02 AM
People use all sorts of labels to help them decide how to interact with others. Male or female, nice or nasty, laid back or hyper, friend or foe, conservative or liberal, we all carry many labels. It just troubles me when some find one label so upsetting that they completely ignore all the rest.

Jacqui
11-27-2008, 09:39 AM
I can't understand why anyone in this forum would object to a label. Most people come here for support because they have a bundle of "circumstances" within themselves that run counter to society. If society doesn't matter to you, you are free to live alone. Henry David Thoreau did that and his book, "Walden," was a great influence on me.

Most people in this forum do not use labels as hurtful stereotypes but merely to get to the point. Outside of this forum could be quite the opposite.

I don't mean this offensively, but I would have a hard time trying to figure out if I could get helpful support from a person who considered themselves, "Just ME."

Almost everything that exists in the world is labelled: animals, plants, rocks, stars, solar systems...and yes, people.

Among other things, I'm CD, TG, TS- ....and that's who I am. If I ever change, so will my labels.

Jacqui

obsessedwithpantyhose
11-27-2008, 09:41 AM
we are all humans,,,,,,,

curse within
11-27-2008, 10:38 AM
Ladies, thanks so much for your input on this one. I think it is so wonderful to be able to read all the views on 'labels'. Like anything in life, how we define ourselves( if that's even necessary) comes down to an individual choice and that's what it's all about isn't it, self acceptance. I personally do not use a label as such to define myself( other than gender enhanced), I'm simply me and very comfortable with it. If I were to use a label( by true definition), I'm afraid it would become outdated in a matter of weeks or months as I am a work in progress with no finite ending to my knowledge. My evolution continues daily without warning and I do not interfere with my inner feeling, I simply allow them to lead me where ever they choose and accept it. If society has a need to label me as this or that, my only wish for that would be someday society would rubber-stamped me 'human being', nothing more.
Oh, btw, my GG had no idea what GG meant either until she approved of, and accepted me after coming out to her.

Jill if you consider yourselve "GENDER ENHANCED" than because I choose not to accept my female half would my label be "GENDER CHALLENEGED"...

jillleanne
11-27-2008, 07:17 PM
Curse, If you are not accepting of yourself for who are are(not by choice) only you can decide on how to identify yourself, and that comes from within. I could tell you all sorts of things I might think you are, but that doesn't make you so. I might be able to assist you in discovering who you are, but the final decision is yours and yours alone to live with and who you are today may not be who you become tomorrow. Only you can decide who you believe you are at any given time, no one else. I know who I am today and have come to love and accept me. How others accept me is their issue. I do believe however, once one fully accepts who they are, a heavy burden is removed from their life and life itself just gets better and better. I certainly did not ask to be gender enhanced, but I have accepted I was born this way and if I wish to be totally happy and at peace within myself, I had to come to terms with it knowing full well, in my case, I will always be who I was born. Acceptance came easily. And life begins at that point.

PortiaHoney
11-28-2008, 04:21 AM
Hmmmm. If we are all very quiet you can hear the echoes of the original big bang from the beginnings of the universe.................








Sometimes, I thinks we thinks too much......... Ah, the stillness of being gender neutral.:D

ReineD
11-28-2008, 06:20 AM
The prime example is transgendered. I do not know what that is supposed to mean, and even if I have a definition (there are many), they are so broad and all inclusive that they are not an accurate description of me or what I do.

The problem, as I see it, is that we are searching for a word to describe a large community of individuals who are all different from one another.

That's why transgender works. The definition of "trans" is "across, beyond, crossing, on the other side". It applies to anyone interested in expressing any instance or degree of non-birth gender. Even if the transperson identifies as fully male and dresses for fetishistic reasons, it still crosses over. It is the subcategories that are difficult to define. They overlap. The boundaries dividing each one are not rigid.


And then we get even crazier when we combine our gender label with our sexual preferences. Good heavens, now we are a cd with bi-curious tendencies, non-op , with SRS plans for the future hoping to find an understanding someone. Understanding? How can anyone be understanding when we can't even figure out who you are with all these stupid labels?

Precisely. In the evolving condition of transgenderism, or as transpersons continue along their path of self-discovery and acceptance, there are so many different categories and stages within each category that it is impossible to come up with words that precisely and uniquely define each one. It is more important to know who you are and to be able to communicate it, even if it takes an entire sentence or two instead of one word. Especially to an SO and other loved ones.

I agree that if the TGed expression were to plateau and remain static, it would be much easier to define using the broader subcategories.


If I were to use a label( by true definition), I'm afraid it would become outdated in a matter of weeks or months as I am a work in progress with no finite ending to my knowledge. My evolution continues daily without warning and I do not interfere with my inner feeling, I simply allow them to lead me where ever they choose and accept it. If society has a need to label me as this or that ...

Yes, my point above. It is evolving, which is something SOs and loved ones tend to be concerned about. I'm afraid the tendency for some TGs is to either be unwilling to do the soul searching it takes to fully come to terms with the progression, or to be unwilling to communicate it to a partner.

Even if there is not one word that fits: "I used to consider myself strictly a crossdresser wishing to occasionally express a female facet, but now I am increasingly identifying as the female gender and I am beginning to be bi-curious. Because I have noticed this progression, I am no longer certain that I will not want to progress further. There is a chance things could change drastically in my future", it is still something that needs to be expressed. Hiding behind the notion that it is not necessary to "define" a changing condition or a subconscious intention makes it difficult for an SO to do her own soul searching and know how she feels about the changes, or to try to make her own inner changes so she can prepare for potential changes in the future.


I guess alot of all this labelling business has to do with self discovery and acceptance.

I think this explains why so many TGs do not like to define who they are or what they want, and hide behind a distaste for labels? :hiding:


I love cheesecake, too. So I am a crossdressing white male cheesecakeologist.

You mean a CDWM cheesecakeaphilic, don't you? :)

ReineD
11-28-2008, 06:35 AM
There are transsexuals who know deep in their hearts that they are women, but who do not cross-dress (read Jan Morris's autobiography "Conundrum" for one example), and there are 24/7 crossdressers who are not at all TS.

All the evidence points to these being separate continuums, though the TS 'continuum' is almost an either-or one (i.e. not many people found in the middle, unsure about their core identity).

But isn't there increasing evidence of latent TSs? Also, I wonder what is the difference between a 24/7 hetero CD and a non-op lesbian TS. Is it a very significant difference?

curse within
11-28-2008, 07:48 AM
Curse, If you are not accepting of yourself for who are are(not by choice) only you can decide on how to identify yourself, and that comes from within. I could tell you all sorts of things I might think you are, but that doesn't make you so. I might be able to assist you in discovering who you are, but the final decision is yours and yours alone to live with and who you are today may not be who you become tomorrow. Only you can decide who you believe you are at any given time, no one else. I know who I am today and have come to love and accept me. How others accept me is their issue. I do believe however, once one fully accepts who they are, a heavy burden is removed from their life and life itself just gets better and better. I certainly did not ask to be gender enhanced, but I have accepted I was born this way and if I wish to be totally happy and at peace within myself, I had to come to terms with it knowing full well, in my case, I will always be who I was born. Acceptance came easily. And life begins at that point.

Well said ...but within saying that wouldn't I have to have this feeling of being or wanting to be a female in order to accept it? If it's not there and after well over 30 years it hasn't been whats there to accept? We all can not diagnose one another from how we accept ourselves that would mean we would all be clones..I thank you for the effort in trying to be helpful and the words of wisdom but I am just C.W. not C.W.ette.

Veronica27
11-28-2008, 01:06 PM
That's why transgender works. The definition of "trans" is "across, beyond, crossing, on the other side". It applies to anyone interested in expressing any instance or degree of non-birth gender. Even if the transperson identifies as fully male and dresses for fetishistic reasons, it still crosses over. It is the subcategories that are difficult to define. They overlap. The boundaries dividing each one are not rigid.



Precisely. In the evolving condition of transgenderism, or as transpersons continue along their path of self-discovery and acceptance, there are so many different categories and stages within each category that it is impossible to come up with words that precisely and uniquely define each one. It is more important to know who you are and to be able to communicate it, even if it takes an entire sentence or two instead of one word. Especially to an SO and other loved ones.



Your first quote, which was from my posting, loses the original message because of it being an excerpt. My point was that the term crossdress is primarily a verb, which describes something I do. The various forms of the word i.e. crossdresser, crossdressed etc. are simply the nouns and adjectives that flow from that word. On the other hand, the terms transgender, transgendered etc. are primarily nouns or adjectives and they reference what someone is as opposed to what they do. I am not aware of it being used in any verb form. I went on to say, as do you, that transgender is an attempt to find an all inclusive term for the community as a whole.

My objections to the term transgender are:
a) that the definition is not precise and is therefore confusing for spouses and those who have a need to understand us.
b) describing what we are, rather than what we do, and that it is gender related, can send a misleading message. Gender is a state of mind as opposed to a physical condition. By including "trans" we are implying a movement which many may interpret as a pathway to an ultimate goal of reaching the other side.
c) I am the sum total of a great many things, but the word transgender tends to add too much significance to this aspect of my life. When describing anybody, one of the first steps is to identify their sex and gender. This is necessary for use of correct pronouns, and because it helps to explain much of what follows. Race, occupation, height, weight and so on are all secondary to sex and gender. Transgender sits right up there with sex and gender in describing who a person is. My crossdressing is not that major a part of my life or my being.

In your second quote above, in response to someone else's reply, you echo very well one of my primary concerns with transgender when you say "In the evolving condition of transgenderism, or as transpersons continue along their path of self-discovery and acceptance, there are so many different categories and stages within each category that it is impossible to come up with words that precisely and uniquely define each one." Does "evolving" and "path" imply a journey to transition? Many think it does.

I do fully agree with your statement "It is more important to know who you are and to be able to communicate it, even if it takes an entire sentence or two instead of one word. Especially to an SO and other loved ones." Precisely why I don't like using all inclusive terms to label me.

I appreciate your comments.

Veronica

ReineD
11-28-2008, 09:46 PM
My point was that the term crossdress is primarily a verb, which describes something I do. On the other hand, the terms transgender, transgendered etc. are primarily nouns or adjectives and they reference what someone is as opposed to what they do.

My objections to the term transgender are:
a) that the definition is not precise and is therefore confusing for spouses and those who have a need to understand us.
b) describing what we are, rather than what we do, and that it is gender related, can send a misleading message. Gender is a state of mind as opposed to a physical condition. By including "trans" we are implying a movement which many may interpret as a pathway to an ultimate goal of reaching the other side.
c) I am the sum total of a great many things, but the word transgender tends to add too much significance to this aspect of my life. When describing anybody, one of the first steps is to identify their sex and gender. This is necessary for use of correct pronouns, and because it helps to explain much of what follows. Race, occupation, height, weight and so on are all secondary to sex and gender. Transgender sits right up there with sex and gender in describing who a person is. My crossdressing is not that major a part of my life or my being.

I appreciate your comments.


You say, "Gender is a state of mind as opposed to a physical condition". I agree. My understanding is that for non-transgendered individuals, the state of mind does not veer from anatomical birth.

Up until I was exposed to CDing, I understood there to be two genders (not including people born with intersexual characteristics): the male gender comprised of birth males who have no interest in the physical expression of a female side, and the female gender comprised of birth females who have no interest in the physical expression of a male side. This does not preclude males and females from possessing varying degrees of male and female characteristics or personality traits. For example, there are non-transgendered GGs who are more masculine or feminine than others, even though they do not wish to experience the physical exploration of the male gender, and vice versa for non-transgendered GMs.

I now understand there is a third gender term, 'transgender' or 'transperson' that describes the people who occupy the vast grey area in between, those for whom, irrespective of personality traits, gender is not purely a matter of black or white, no matter which continuum, CD or TS, they occupy or where they are at along that continuum. In other words, those who wish to physically express any degree of their non-birth gender. I do not believe TG implies a journey to transition. The term for this, I believe, is TS.

I also do not believe the term 'transgender' is meant to be precise. It does not, as its subcategory terms, attempt to pinpoint whether someone is 'mostly male' who occasionally wishes to experience feeling female, or whether the birth male rejects her birth gender entirely and feels completely female. But it does indicate a desire to cross over to some degree, no matter how much?

I gather you are saying that for you, CDing does not explore the experience of a gender other than your birth gender and that you are not physically crossing over in your exploration of your female facet?

I appreciate your thoughts on this. :hugs:

Lisa Catherine
11-28-2008, 11:01 PM
Let's not forget how we're labeled as "fetishists" by that pompous mass-media hot-air-bag Dr. Phil, as well as others, his empty-suit-pompousness being the most obvious!! :2c:

trannie T
11-28-2008, 11:35 PM
I do not mind being labeled but the bar code tattooed on my butt was painful.

emmicd
11-28-2008, 11:37 PM
I admit I am a crossdresser and I don't mind being called a crossdresser. The thing that bothers me is that most of society is ignorant of the fact that about 99% of crossdressers are straight and heterosexual males.

Most think if you are a crossdresser you are gay and that is the furthest from the truth!

That is what bothers me about labels!

emmi

obsessedwithpantyhose
11-28-2008, 11:59 PM
a female wears boxers,,is she a lesbian????
a man slips into anything female and hes automaticaly gay. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Julogden
11-29-2008, 01:10 AM
...but my perspective considers some important things:


I subscribe to the existence of a tg spectrum or continuum
Such a spectrum is horizontal rather than hierarchical
The labels are simply descriptive
Labels help provide a means for self-discovery


We are all vastly different and the terms of description help us to convey detail about who we are. If everyone runs around saying that they're simply gender gifted, we would know nothing about what makes them tick and their place in the world in dealing with this tg thing.

The terms along the continuum should not be used to suppress others or suggest that one form of feminine expression is better than another.



And tell them what? I find that the labels as we know them help me to describe exactly who I am and what my tg nature is all about.

Hi Sara,

I think you've summed things up quite well. I have no problem with labels per se, they're simply a manner of communicating information.

Carol

Sara Jessica
11-29-2008, 10:52 AM
I admit I am a crossdresser and I don't mind being called a crossdresser. The thing that bothers me is that most of society is ignorant of the fact that about 99% of crossdressers are straight and heterosexual males.

Most think if you are a crossdresser you are gay and that is the furthest from the truth!

That is what bothers me about labels!

emmi

It's not the label "crossdresser" that is the problem, it's how many people erroneously stereotype the label.


Hi Sara,

I think you've summed things up quite well. I have no problem with labels per se, they're simply a manner of communicating information.

Carol

Thank you for the vote of confidence Carol.


You may think so, Sara, but the facts contradict you.

There are transsexuals who know deep in their hearts that they are women, but who do not cross-dress (read Jan Morris's autobiography "Conundrum" for one example), and there are 24/7 crossdressers who are not at all TS.

All the evidence points to these being separate continuums, though the TS 'continuum' is almost an either-or one (i.e. not many people found in the middle, unsure about their core identity).

I'm sorry Katie but I'm not seeing the "facts" which you say contradict my belief. The examples you cite are merely individual points along a continuum with infinite possibilities of expression and being. Some studies may point to separate continuums, great...that doesn't take anything away from the gist of what I was saying. A continuum in our case is merely a place to line up these labels. Again, doing so horizontally rather than in a vertical hierarchy (ie - I'm better than/more woman than you because I'm a _____ ). Stagger the continuums if you will, I think that creates more divisiveness than anything else. We're all in this together no matter which label we identify with.

Veronica27
11-29-2008, 12:06 PM
I gather you are saying that for you, CDing does not explore the experience of a gender other than your birth gender and that you are not physically crossing over in your exploration of your female facet?

I appreciate your thoughts on this. :hugs:

Hi Reine

I think our little exchange here illustrates the confusion experienced by the public when confronted by our community and the labels used to describe who we are and what we do. I agree with most of the explanations you give about the terminology, but as members of that community, you and I have different perspectives on the various implications of crossdressing based on our experiences and feelings than do members of the public. In a post following yours, emmicd summed up part of the problem "Most think if you are a crossdresser you are gay and that is the furthest from the truth!" I think you could add to that 'Most think that if you are transgendered you have a desire to transition'. I think it can be easier to disprove the "gay" conotation than the "desire to transition" one.

My preference for the term crossdresser, as I said, is because it describes what I like to do which is undeniable. I enjoy wearing female clothing from time to time for relaxation, escape and adventure. I have no desire to be female; my activities are merely a form of role playing in order to experience as a man a few of the unique sensations and situations that are normally allowed only to the female. The term transgender, on the other hand, attempts to describe what I am but I am a complex maze of so many parts, that attempting to pigeon hole me by one such term does not do justice to the real me. You mention that there are really three genders, with transgender being a third one between the other two. However, I do not believe you have to be a member of that third gender in order to be a crossdresser.

Lastly, I think that everyone possesses both masculine and feminine qualities in varying degrees. These are not finite terms that describe a natural condition such as male/female, short/tall and so on. They are a blend of hormonally induced mental qualities modified by cultural and societal influences to produce expected behavioural patterns. Yes, I am allowing the expression of certain of my feminine qualities when I crossdress, but it is my male self doing so. In the sense that clothing is physical, I am crossing over to a form of female expression, but it represents an exploration of external female conditions (as I observe them in real women), as opposed to an exploration of my own internal gender. I agree somewhat with your conclusion that I am not exploring the experience of the other gender, in that I never lose sight of the fact that I am first and foremost a man who feels no presence of any female gender tendencies. However, the second part of your conclusion puzzles me, in that crossdressing is a very physical experience. I am exploring the outward physical trappings of womanhood rather than any inner sense of what others might think of as my own womanhood.

I have enjoyed reading your thoughts on this complex issue.

Veronica

ReineD
11-30-2008, 05:22 AM
My preference for the term crossdresser, as I said, is because it describes what I like to do which is undeniable. I enjoy wearing female clothing from time to time for relaxation, escape and adventure. I have no desire to be female; my activities are merely a form of role playing in order to experience as a man a few of the unique sensations and situations that are normally allowed only to the female. The term transgender, on the other hand, attempts to describe what I am but I am a complex maze of so many parts, that attempting to pigeon hole me by one such term does not do justice to the real me.

Thank you for your insight.

I sometimes get caught up in trying to figure it out for myself and more often than not, my endless posts are written for self-clarification. If I gave you the impression I was trying to tell you how you should define yourself, I apologize. But, the term 'transgender' does seem to be widely accepted as encompassing both crossdressers and transsexuals, both on internet sites and in printed material.

No one will argue there is little known about transgenderism. Not only are there few studies that help define all the different layers, the task in itself is complicated since the characteristics or the expressions of TGism in any given individual seem to change - to progress and the plateaus are also individual. It is hard to determine whether this happens because it is its nature or if it is the result of CDers or transpersons coming out of denial.

I am no expert, but from personal observation I notice the younger generation of CDers push through barriers that previous generations would never have dreamed of doing, perhaps because their generation seems to be less constrained by 'taboos', and because of all the information now available on the internet. So the definitions and the norms if there is such a thing change even from one generation to the next!

So yes, it is fluid and very difficult to define and it is not surprising everyone has their own personal take on it. But if the words used to describe where someone is at - the 'definitions' or the 'labels' as people here prefer to call them (and by this I do mean one or two sentences, not necessarily a single word) - seem unnecessary to many CDers and/or transpersons, they are crucial to those of us who love you if we are to even come close to understanding.

From the time I was born, I've been exposed to males and females. Being a GG, I understand what being female is all about. But, even though I have not lived in a man's skin, I have enough accumulated experience, some of which I might even say has become intuitive, to have developed a solid sense of what a male is. I have no such experience with transpersons.

I've read here many times about CDers wishing they could be women for just a day or two. I would love to be transgendered for a day or two so I could understand my SO and all of you better.

:hugs:

Sara Jessica
11-30-2008, 11:35 AM
The other point is Sara's about the continuum, but I'm afraid I have to disagree here. The point about a continuum is precisely that it's continuous. It's a single line with no branches off, like the colours of the rainbow - although you can name different colours they all blend into each other, it's a single scale and there no other colours exist off the spectrum.

Now, cross-dressing and transsexualism aren't like that. It doesn't go from putting on a pair of panties to having a full sex-change in a single continuous line, because there are two different scales. One scale is: "deep in your soul, are you male or female? Score 0-10". This is a scale of knowledge or emotion.

The other scale is: "How many different articles of women's clothing do your wear? Score 0-10". This is a scale of behaviour or possessions. I personally score zero on the first scale and 10 on the second. Other people may well score 5 on each.

To say "Jan Morris is only one example so she doesn't count" is bad logic - you only need one example to prove that a theory is untrue. (E.g. The theory "All swans are white" was disproved when explorers in Australia saw the first black swan. It only took one example.)

Please don't misinterpret or misrepresent what I said. I clarified that the concept of a gender continuum which encompasses ALL variations is very simplistic. You are simply citing different definitions and parameters of a gender continuum as a means to discredit mine.

Here's why I'm saying your parameters are muddying the waters. Using your two distinct scales, I'd be on the high end when it comes to "how deep in your soul are you female", let's say 10. Then the other scale, "how many different articles of women's clothing do you wear?", I'd have to be a 10 as well. Yet when it comes to that single line theory, I'd rate somewhere to the right of center. I identify as ts but due to life circumstances I am unwilling to transition. This doesn't change my feminitiy to the very core of my being (again, a 10), nor the importance for me to be able to present as female when I am able to do so (another 10).

And I never said the Jan Morris situation you cited doesn't count (nor do I see where I said "all swans are white"). She can place just as easily in my example as she can with yours.

Now here's where it can get really interesting. This whole thing started as a discussion about labels. My single line continuum example allows me to describe my place in the world as a non-transitioning ts. This is so whether or not I choose to dress as female. As for a label, I might go with "tg" as a means to describe my middle path because too many assumptions are made when one states "cd" or "ts". Yet those labels are often entirely appropriate for others to use to describe themselves. There are those to the right of me who are in varying stages of transition and to my left you would find individuals who simply crossdress with varying degrees of outward expression and internal identification as being female. Therefore, adjectives are used to add further detail and clarification to the basic label we might assign to ourselves (introspection) or to clarify the perception of others who might mis-label us.

I think your example has tremendous credibility if we lay out your two lines as x and y axes, gender identity and gender expression (ie, 0-10 west to east, 0-10 south to north) because each variable being considered requires a distinct axis if used to compare and/or contrast. Otherwise, they are mutually exclusive lines. Using your definitions, I'd be in the upper right portion of the upper right quadrant. Perhaps the Jan Morris example might place in the lower right portion of the lower right quadrant. And from what you have said about yourself, perhaps you would be placed in the upper left portion of the upper left quadrant. There are so many wrinkles you can insert which demonstrates that even your example can be too simplistic. For example, for gender expression, simply measuring the articles of women's clothing one might wear, I'd rate pretty high, yet wouldn't it be equally important to identify how much time does one spend presenting as female? Throw sexual orientation into the mix and we have a multi-dimentional set of axes which now makes my head spin!!! But here's my point, while going through this exercise might be a nifty way to gain a deeper scientific understanding of how people fit into a theory using multiple variables, it doesn't provide a quick and easy way for me to label myself. It makes me regret having to over think this whole thing to make a point as to why we should keep it simple...no wonder some people hate labels!