An Outsider's View of the CD + Marriage Issue (Long read-sorry)

I'm going to respond to this more as an "outsider".. as my situation has led me to a different involvement here and I've seen these kinds of comments and notes frequently even in my short-ish forum history. Also I'm an "outsider" to the world of relationships and marriage and direct involvement as such.

Note: I'm _very_ logical minded involving thoughts of this sort. I realize it's not something that you can logically progress thru as emotionally charged as these situations really are but that's why I'm posting it here. My own logical side and thus lack of social skills has kept me pretty much all 48 years as the "observer" for all of these things. And why I don't respond much to threads involving this spousal demands/issues.

My logic first considers this:
Marriages are _supposed_ to be between 2 people that truly care for, and think of, each other. (something I personally think needs to truly be defined more in marriage vows).

Marriages are "add-on", if you will, to the individual's "life experience". It's there for convenience of having a "family". And of dedicating commitment. But to me, the individual still has to somewhat take precedent over the marriage. Each individual _cannot_ just "get rid" of a part of themselves no matter how you say or how you think you're brainwashing your partner to do so otherwise. Sure, you modify priorities (and especially when you continue the "family" with having children) but you cannot "get rid" of pieces of yourself.

This is why I'm saddened hearing stories of the wives that even though they knew beforehand of "what they were getting" with the CDer spouse, that they can instantly turn the 180 degrees and say it has to be got rid of. Of course, this isn't just CDing that this happens to.. many times I've seen marriages where once they've got the ring, they "force" the spouse to get rid of hobbies, sports, etc. To "change" the guy (or girl..seen it both ways).

This is not a healthy marriage...as this "instantly" does 2 things. 1: The person that is being changed now has that little seed of resentment started in the back of the mind. This can grow quickly into a forest of discontent. (ooo metaphors!) 2: In a way, this instantly (to me) invalidates the marriage. Back to first statement: Two people that think of and care for each other. If you force changes on the person..you're not thinking "of" the partner's well being. You're only thinking of yourself. The wife (in our cases) is in no way realizing the hurt she has done. She's only thinking of herself and whether it's supposed "shame","competition" (of the girl side), or attractiveness, whatever.

Now trying "changing" the CDer in the marriage is doubly (or more) hurtful and damaging than _any_ other thing than could occur. Sure you could maybe convince him to get rid of a model train hobby... but when you deal with crossdressing, you are dealing with the _core_ personality and gender aspect of the person. You sure couldn't say to a wife "I now forbid you to wear _any_ women's clothes..from now on you'll dress as a guy". You can't say to a developing child that they now _have_ to dross opposite their gender. If that was done, that could be called abuse in courts and causing mental anguish. That's what's so bad for the CDer. Our core is a bit more gender fluid. It's not something that can be turned on and off. That's why it reappears in force when purging. It is not just a hobby...it's our "selves". Courts may not agree with us, but in a way forcing a CDer to "give it up" is also just about as bad.

Now, the extra parts to this process of these spouse "demands" I see is this.
(Technically, this can vary a bit...somewhat more of a duality here.)
With a lot of CDers I see them 1: being more in touch with their feminine side and likewise their emotions.
This unfortunately only amplifies the "anguish" felt by their "selves" as these demands are done.
Others (and I'm kind of thinking ones that start CD later in life..but maybe not necessarily so) have been in "male mode" for so long in their lives, that they're "used" to covering up or sublimating their feelings. This can be bad as buried feelings are the perfect fertilizer for the "forest" of discontent (whee...continued metaphors). And like weeds in well-fertilized soil, all sorts of weird stuff can spring up fast and at odd times when there's too much buried. (add in other life events and so forth and it's nothing but tall ragweed amongst the trees keeping the pathway out of the forest to a good "self" hidden).

So overall, what can be done?
I'm not sure myself (these are more observations than experience). I'm definitely not advocating getting a weed-whacker.

It all comes down to the fact that unless the spouse has to realize they _are_ hurting the one they are supposed to love by imposing getting rid of CD, then nothing will change. They have to realize that it's not just a hobby...it's a part of the CDer's "soul" or self they are trying to rip away.
And they have to actually care for someone other than themselves..as not realizing this hurt they are doing is really only for their own insecurities whatever they may be. Ultimately you either have to truly learn to "understand" each other and what can and can't be changed/controlled, and decide from there. And you have to _want_ to truly understand each other for coexistence to continue in a good way.
My deep respect for the GG supporters of the CDers that found out later in their marriage. It takes a lot to truly learn about and support a CDer. Add in outside influences,family,etc it's rough for the spouse to handle and come to terms with. Mainly because it also makes them assess their own "selves" and self priorities along with what the CDer is going thru.

So that's the crux of it.

You can go further into trying to "therapy" things. Bearing in mind, however, that it's a 3rd party involvement and it has to be a "good" therapist that can truly help. And needs to be a better gender trained one who should "realize" the gender "core" issue of the CDer and be able to talk to both parties and be objective about it all. Otherwise, all you'll get is one that treats CDing as a simple hobby..and will only introduce more fertilizer to the forest.

Well.. that's my thoughts. Deep or not, I dunno.
I probably had another thought too..but after almost 2 hours typing this...
But all this observation (as well as age, and seeing so many friend's divorces too) has only added to my own reluctance to ever pursue any real relationship.
Seeing the outright divorce threads, the DADT aspect, and so forth just keeps me thinking of marriage/trans/CD overall compatibility.

Overall, marriage _needs_ to be the coexistance of both partners' individual core "selves". And as one goes thru life, the "self" can change grow and evolve. But it cannot be "commanded" to evolve. I think "self" evolving has changed even more quickly in recent years as the "view of the world" allows for more varied experiences thru life. Gone is the "get married" then "stay as you are till you die" aspect so seen in older years. Society changes. Selfs change. And at faster and faster rates thanks to information flow. And this has hampered marriages all over. And probably is a good cause of issues in several divorces in recent times.

Anyways, take these thoughts for what they are... outside observations.
My thoughts may be flawed, and I'm sure there's variations to it all.

-Kacey

Your thoughts are interesting and thought provoking. One common thread I notice is that CD's seem to give control of their happiness to their spouses. I agree with you that marriage needs to be for the common good of the family and that well may entail secrecy on the part of the CD'r. But, that is not true for all marriages and real consideration must be given to all members of the family. Most family secrets are rarely secret, just not talked about openly. Pretending is a poor substitute for communicating.

Kacey, If I understand your opening statement correctly, you are not now nor have you ever been married. That being the case, you have no way of understanding a marriage relationship and that skews your view of how it all works.

Dear one, each and every time you try to impose logic on relationship you are in for trouble. Relationships, even the most healthy ones, are almost totally illogical. Think about it, why would one person give up their perceived freedom to be attached to the life of another person who they know going in will try to "change" them as you suggest.

Your observations are only flawed by presuppositions based upon your own lack of understanding. Keep on thinking about it, though. Maybe you can help some of us here who are fighting all sorts of things.

in life, we are in control and primarily responsible for 1 person.
Hopefully we allow ourselves to meet a like minded person who wants to travel the same path.
Sometimes during the journey of life, we change paths, and that change might not be the path others want to travel.

As for my duality, now that I have achieved my level of balance, there is no anguish, only peace harmony and understanding on a level a singular person may have trouble comprehending.

To observe life does not take courage, faith or any activity.
To participate in life, it's ups and downs is a treasure beyond words.

Sorry if I appear anti-observer, we have lots of childless law makers here telling us how to raise kids, not willing to experience the fact every child is different

I wouldn't go so far as to say that someone who isn't married has no concept of how marriage relationships work. Sometimes an outside observer can observe things that an inside observer cannot and one does not have to be a Clydesdale to know that pulling a beer wagon is difficult.

A healthy marriage, IMO, involves two partners who recognize that change is the only constant. Every relationship evolves as both partners must change as they mature. Where many marriages get into trouble is when one partner decides to give more respect to an outside influence (friends, relatives, religious leaders, or even a TV talking head) than they do to their partner.

While Kaseys observations are good, even Spock logical, I really hope Kasey finds someone special that turns her argument upside down.

One point I see of dispute, is wives who "know before hand what they are getting in to " - Many wives will know they have a river to cross, what they don't understand is how deep the river is.
Some, with courage and love will attempt to cross the deepest of rivers, while others will be beaten back by the flow and may ask the man to cross to her side, others still will be pulled downstream (life is full of variables)

Wow someone who writes longer posts than I do. Amazing. :lol2: I used to try so hard to apply logic on things to do with my husband and our marriage, until I realized logic while a comfort in a crazy world does not always apply. In our case my husband was the one who was afraid we'd change. I was sure we would and accepted that. We learn and grow or our minds just rot on the vine. Life isn't nice and neat. Never was. Marriage logical?! Maybe in some arranged marriages that may apply but not in the real world we live in today.

CD and marriage can and does co-exist peacefully in some of our life's here. Do I try to change my husband? Guilty as charged. I am trying to get him to accept himself and love himself as I love him flaws and all. He has some doubts and fears and I hate seeing him unhappy so I do try to do what I can to help him. He does the same for me. Marriage is supposed to be like that I think. I don't have to agree with him all the time and he doesn't have to see my POV as the be all and end all of things. We do strive to respect each other and embrace those differences. I am guessing those of us content have nothing much to bitch about so we don't post about it. I dunno pure speculation on my part but would ya really find a thread about how great things are and how it's just another day at our house all that interesting to read?

Live long and prosper my friend.

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Originally Posted by LaraPeterson

...you have no way of understanding a marriage relationship and that skews your view ...

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Yeah, it's possible and probable. That's why I tend to not reply on marriage threads...I can't viably "offer experience" or truths. If I do it's just to throw general support out..but it's moderately hollow. In my life and acquaintances, the most lengthy marriages are all pre-recent times, before there was much of anything like internet, social, directed media,etc. In fact, with the exception of my own parent's divorce after I moved out of the house...I don't recall any divorces occurring. In the ~26 years of having my friends here locally, I've known of 7 bad divorces, been involved with/at 3 weddings (only one is one of the divorced group). Thankfully, the one I was best man at is still going strong. But these weren't really comparable to CD-issue incompatibilities or due to "recent" social media. Except for maybe one. There was heavy manipulation going on, and even continuing into manipulation of their children. Two I could almost classify as being bad enough the "abuser" in the marriage should have been institutionalized even. The one that was kind of close I could classify as being a "power wife" that the husband wasn't "smart enough" for her.. (She's one to get involved with city councils, various commuinity groups and gets her pic regularly in the paper for some thing or another...but he was a factory foreman/manager..not 'important enough for her'. So he basically got relegated to the basement in the end, and eventually divorced.
I only say "close" to the CD-marriage with the respect that she wanted him "hid" away from "her life".
They have a son (grown) that's got his mother's genes... he's a bit of a power-hungry lawyer. Also divorced. And I know and have talked with who he currently is living with...the poor girl. I know there generally is give and take in any relationships..but he's a "controller" and I can't see her being too happy for any length of time (beyond being financially stable).
Discussing with mom about all of these over the years has made us think that "who needs soap operas anymore? We've got all the drama around us.. "

Needless to say, all this stuff also probably affects my thought. And over the years has pretty much turned off any need to hunt for my own relationships.
But this was just me trying to throw out my way of looking at all of this.

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Originally Posted by Rachelakld

Sometimes during the journey of life, we change paths, and that change might not be the path others want to travel.

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Yes I can understand this. That was kind of the part I was discussing at the end. I think that thanks to communication nowadays, the speed of media, society merging thanks to internet, the "options" for change are even more speedy and plentiful..affecting situations and marriages even faster. In older days I can see a CDer having problems, he had fewer outlets for communication to support groups, or at least for a new CDer it would take a longer time to locate such. Nowadays, the "new" CDer can get on the net and find local groups for support. A married but hiding CDer during those earlier times would have spent more time and energy "keeping it hid to keep the marriage" than rock the boat and explore his "self" with support groups. Nowdays with the support and the visibility of others, some might realize "there is a different world out there" and "change their paths" faster.

The other side that this communication and society "speed up" affects is in the perceived visibility of what's happening in the household.
I mean, the "goings on" in your life back then was really only passed on by direct talking to friends, or if you had friends over,etc. Nowadays, just get on Facebook and you can see all sorts of more intimate goings on and drama in your other friends and families that you really wouldn't have known about otherwise (and even inadvertent "relevations" by the kids on that or twitter,etc). With all of this happening in the world, it might make spouses even more wary of word getting out and maybe more intolerant of even a DADT situation.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Did GG

Wow someone who writes longer posts than I do. ...

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Heh... yeah I can get going at times. I tend to articulate better typing out like this than direct communication. So when I get on a roll....
And yours is an interesting flip on the situation. And a nicer one..where you realize the spouses' happiness and are trying to help. It's just that sometimes when I see the instant DADT or instant "divorce" by the wives in the reports, I just feel sorry that they don't understand the "hurt" they have done to the CDer or don't seem to "try" to put themselves in the CDer's place and see how damaging it is. And I know a lot of the CDers "want" to keep the stable marriage because of the love for them. That the spouse forces the issue of forced purging/quitting w/o looking into the damage caused to the CDer or being able to see the pain caused smacks to me of one-sided arrangement or non-sympathetic thought.

But like mentioned.. and like what's seen all over tech and game (and other) boards, if things are good, not much gets mentioned. For the thousands that view this board (non-registered) compared to the other thousands that are registered, down to the hundreds that are the more regular posters.. you can interpolate that there's a lot more "good" or not so drastic situations out there compared to the bad.
A product gets made, and you'll likely see 10 reviews complaining about the product..compared to the hundreds or thousands that are having no issues with it. Same thing here.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Did GG

Live long and prosper my friend.

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Na nu, Na nu... (sorry...was watching Mork and Mindy reruns heh :))

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Originally Posted by LaraPeterson

Kacey, If I understand your opening statement correctly, you are not now nor have you ever been married. That being the case, you have no way of understanding a marriage relationship and that skews your view of how it all works.

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and by that logic Liz Taylor and Mickey Rooney should have been experts. Truth is no one really has the understanding, it is a go with the flow and learn as you go along thing. In my life marriage was a partnership where two people worked together and learned to love the other's imperfections. Most would tell me I know nothing of marriage. Someone once said that when people get married one partner does it hoping the other will never change and the other partner hopes they can change their spouse.

As Eryn pointed out, the only that is for sure is that things will change

Keeping in mind that few here are psychologists, either professional or amateur, even fewer know why they crossdress, we can start with some of the primary reasons why wives are so upset when they find out about our behavior. Perhaps number one, is the it upsets the sexual attraction dynamics between the pair. Again, few have any idea of why they are attracted to another person; indeed, many people are attracted to people who are bad for them. Criminals, consistant cheaters, liars, wife beaters, abusive mates, yet the response you get when you ask why they stay is always 'But I love him/her'. They truly don't know why. Sometimes it takes a long time to figure out, other times, individuals never quite get it. However, the drive to mate and/or get married is always related to sexual desire. And it's here that the problem is most apparent. Women are drawn to alpha male traits; dominance, aggressiveness, strength, success, we all know what's obvious. Throwing feminine behavior and appearance throws a monkey wrench into the works of that, and it doesn't take much to 'kill the mood' for a woman. When she sees her mate as a feminine person in any way, the sexual attraction can quickly disappear, and with it, any passionate love. Once that's gone, there's no reason for her to want to stay mated to that male, and the beginning of the end has started. If she's still attractive at all, it will be easy for her to find another, eager male to fill the void left by her now feminine husband/mate in her desires. Whether the individuals realize what's going on or not, this is most likely the progression that they go through. Some women, upon finding out about their CD/TG/TS mate, will try to keep an open mind, and also try to understand and be accepting of their mate; some will do their best to stay friends with him. But the number who still find him the same dynamic male that she saw him as previously, is much fewer. Of course, as we age, sometimes the sexual desire isn't so important anymore, so some will accept that and stay together as well. I'll let others chime in about other topics along these lines. PM me for any questions.