Not passing and still getting the right pronoun may be even better than passing.

We talk a lot about not passing and even more about passing in public as female. I've talked that talk and tried to walk that walk. But I know I'm not passing once someone actually pays attention, there are too many clues that makeup, clothes, mannerisms, accessories, wig and voice just can't overcome. I've practiced long enough that I can confuse some about my gender or I can be ignored with the best of them and that's good too. But I'm starting to believe the best thing is not passing and still being addressed with female pronouns. When someone uses she, her, Ma'am, Ladies or any of the other female descriptors they are showing a level of respect for what I'm working so hard to accomplish. I know how I feel when I'm dressed, but this tells me how the world has been changing around me, and it seems to be for the better.

You may agree or disagree, but I am beginning to believe that is amazing and very satisfying.

I agree when the right pronoun is used it feels wonderful but when the wrong one is used, for me it ruins the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarah Charles

... When someone uses she, her, Ma'am, Ladies .... they are showing a level of respect ...

---

Agree 100%. Respect. People can be amazing.

You are right on! I long ago realized that I couldn't read people's minds, or judge whether or not I passed based on their reaction or lack thereof. But given my stature and other physical tells, I also have never harbored strong illusions about being able to pass. So, what I judge as success in my interaction with others is how I'm treated. If it's with common courtesy, friendliness and, as a bonus, I'm addressed with the proper pronoun, the it's a good experience. And I'm glad to say that most of the time, that has been my experience.

hmm, I don't know about better, but I think it is definitely a good thing that people are now beginning to offer respect instead of negativity, sarcasm and or hate

I agree that people are respectful. I get a lot of "Miss", "Mam" and other nice comments when out and about. It sure does make you feel fem.

To Sarah and others, chalk this up to another of my attempts at trying to understand the finer points of the CDing:

I gather you know and accept that they know you are male. So do you want them to address you as "Ma'am" because this is an indication of politeness as opposed to being rude? I suppose that generally, politeness indicates acceptance and rudeness indicates non-acceptance and it makes sense that you would want others to accept the fact that you enjoy presenting as a woman.

If this is the case then what do you make of a person who does accept and respect that you are a male who enjoys presenting as a woman and who believes they are treating you with respect when they address you as Mister … since in their eyes it is rude to address someone as the gender they are not? Would you feel slighted if you understood that they are wanting to treat you with respect according to their own personal understanding that you are indeed a male who crossdresses?

(Obviously my question applies to members here who do not identify as TS.)

For reference, I want everyone to know that I always address my SO and others directly by their female names, even if I refer to my SO a lot in this forum as "he". I do this because my SO is most always in male mode when I'm typing away here. When I use "she" to refer to my SO in the third person, it is because my SO is presenting as a woman at the time of typing.

you make a good ponte

I wrote a thread a little while back about how elated I was when out and refered to in the feminine. Now you got me thinking was it was a show of respect for all the trouble we go through to present as female, but how do they know what we actually go through and/or are going through. Now I think it's just a sign that they are only reacting to what they see in front of them in general not gender.I go out now in a more femme male look and get the female pronoun often, I believe because they see a more femme person than a male. Yes it does feel good to be acknowledged for who you are and how you present, it does boost my confidence and my ego and shows how far we have come.

Not passing and getting respect, for me, would be the best. I love wearing the clothes and wouldn't care if called sir or madam as long as I am treated with respect. I have been out driving more often recently and may soon venture out into the real world. I am cd and would like to wear my skirts and dresses, in my free time, without hassle.

Last Saturday night a CD friend and I were having dinner in Marlow's Tavern (a restaurant) and a very nice lady stopped at our table and said, "I want you to know that I think you two look fabulous." She was very friendly and sincere in her compliment. We of course thanked her for her kind words. She continued on out the door after telling us that. Obviously we were not completely passing as I don't think she would have said that to a couple of GG's. But we do make an impact when out and about and not passing. Our server in Marlow's also knew we were crossdressers and consistently referred to us a ladies with appropriate pronouns. This of course made our evening out very special and fun - much more special than if we had just blended in and "passed".

My wife and I were at BJ's BrewHouse in Little Rock a few weeks ago... I am of course in drab, (maybe a little eye makeup), and our server walks up and says good afternoon ladies.....OMG I loved it...Then she quickly glanced back at me and said Oh sorry about that.... I said you can call me a lady any time you want.....It was fun; she got a better than normal tip that day...

Going out in public and passing would be an absolute dream for me. The ideal would be to go shopping en-femme and never once have to be reminded or be self aware of the fact that I'm a male presenting as female. However looking in the mirror I'm quite aware that not even the gods of Olympus could achieve this herculean feat for me.

I also think that passing requires a lot more than physical looks alone and that is also something that is another difficult mountain to climb. I don't see many transgendered people where I live but those that I have seen have often been maligned and ridiculed, after they have passed by in the street. This is something that has appalled me and has to date poured cold water on my own aspirations.

However I have noticed that things are slowly changing and that the kids these days seem very much to be of a totally different ilk to previous generations in this respect, they are much more accepting and open minded. So hopefully one day I'll have the gumption to fail to pass in public whilst being happy to be called Madam instead. That would work for me.

One thing that I'm quite sure about though, is that I'm not going to go to the trouble of learning to walk in 4" heels and then spending £80 on foundation and mascara just to be called Sir! So getting the pronoun right sounds good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReineD

To Sarah and others, chalk this up to another of my attempts at trying to understand the finer points of the CDing:
. . . .
If this is the case then what do you make of a person who does accept and respect that you are a male who enjoys presenting as a woman and who believes they are treating you with respect when they address you as Mister … since in their eyes it is rude to address someone as the gender they are not? Would you feel slighted if you understood that they are wanting to treat you with respect according to their own personal understanding that you are indeed a male who crossdresses? . . .

---

Reine, I do appreciate your continued and concerted efforts to understand. I often think you will understand before I do, but that's another story.

An interesting question but I'm not sure how I would be able to tell the difference between, lets say the waitstaff who says "Sir" because they don't accept and the one who says "Sir" because they believe they are treating me with respect. Since I'm unable to to understand what they are thinking without asking, I guess I'd have to consider suggesting they use what I consider the appropriate term and see if they follow through. It is possible that they just don't have a clue and default to what their senses tell them, so it is a learning opportunity for each of us. If, in the end, they decide to continue calling me "Sir" I have the choice to take my business someplace else after mentioning it to the management, depending on how irritated it makes me.

Passing damn it I've been trying to pass since forever, still no dice kid. That's all right call me what ever you want in the end I decide what lifts me up and what brings me down, I may not be us or them but as long as I'm me it's all right in the end

Thanks for your response Sarah. It's a good strategy: don't assume disrespect if initially someone uses "Sir". Correct them and if they follow through with Ma'am, then you will feel respected.

Getting the right pronoun does give you more confidence, as does intimate interaction such as with sales assistants.

Sometimes, actions speak louder than words.

I was in a department store some years ago shopping in the womens' section en femme, and was on a bit of a personal "high" because I thought that I looked particularly well put-together that day. I had a few dresses draped over my arm that I had selected to try on, and as I continued walking through the department I crossed paths with what I thought was a regular SA who immediately stopped in her tracks, flashed me a bright smile, and asked me if I wanted to be directed to the nearest fitting rooms. As I wasn't ready yet, I demurred, but inwardly did a "happy dance" to celebrate this obvious sign of acceptance. But it gets better...

I wound up selecting a two-piece skirt suit that I wanted to purchase, but there was some confusion in my mind around the pricing because I wasn't sure whether or not this outfit fell into one of the typical "exception" categories despite all the "Sale", "30%-40% Off" and "Clearance" signs posted throughout the department. I subsequently approached the nearest central cash terminal staffed by a number of SA's, and asked one of them to confirm it's status. As feared, it scanned in at the regular price, but I still pressed my case that this was a system error and that this skirt suit really should have come up at the advertised sales price. The SA agreed, but was unable initially to override the sytem to allow the reduced price to be keyed in.

The assistance of another cashier was then solicited, and she, too, was unable to complete the transaction. The next step was to summon over the department manager who - to my pleasant surprise - ended up being the lady whom I had encountered earlier. She had obviously taken a shine to me, took over at that point, and not only bent over backwards using every system override trick in the book to get this price adjustment to "take", but aslo tacked on an additional discretionary 10% discount to compensate me for my troubles. Best of all, she was super friendly and accommodating throughout.

Now, the interesting thing here is that the SA's and the department manager had all clearly pegged me as a CDer at some point along the way, having started to refer to me as "he" and "him" in their conversations among themselves as they worked to sort this situation out. But when it came to addressing me directly, no pronouns were ever used except for the neutral "you", all the while keeping up a pleasant banter that gave no indication that they saw me as being anything other than just another GG customer.

Mixed signals for sure, and initially, my ego took a bit of a bruising over this. But then - reflecting on this encounter afterwards in the cold light of day, and to Sarah's point - I slowly came to realize what this encounter had actually represented...no intended disrespect, just pure acceptance of me as a fellow traveller in this world and devoid of all artificial pretense.

And yes, in some ways that is better than "blending in" or even "passing" as all the cards are on the table at that point, but the positive reaction is still the same.

It's getting pretty rare now for me to be en-femme and be addressed with anything but feminine pronouns, and I love it.

A while back, at the Austin Pride Festival, I was en-femme and getting a morning snack of some French fries at a food stand, and the person who waited on me at first was a lady who quite nicely addressed me as 'Ma'am', and spoke of me in the feminine when asking another lady in the booth to make a fresh batch of fries for me, rather than giving me some that they already had made up. Then she pointed out the condiments and gave me a small cup so I could get some ketchup while I waited. I got that and stepped back to the order counter, but slightly off to one side, watching expectantly as they cooked the fries. Then a third person working the booth, a guy, finished getting some supplies from elsewhere, glanced up at me, and said, "Yes ma'am! Errr sir! Can I help you?" He clearly wasn't sure how to properly address me, and wanted to get it right. I just smiled and replied, "I prefer ma'am, thank you. and I've already placed my order. I'm just waiting for a fresh batch of fries." He smiled back and replied, "Oh! Okay." and went back about his business.

For me it's all good, as long as they seem to be trying to be polite. While I prefer to be addressed in the feminine while en-femme, I don't get upset if someone addresses me as a male but is still polite and happy to serve me or interact with me. I just politely point out that I prefer to be addressed as 'Miss' or 'Ma'am'.

A number of years ago a CD friend of mine (Edie) and I were both en femme and doing some shopping at a large sporting goods store (Bass Pro Shops). We approached an employee that was busy with some stock in the hunting section and Edie asked if they had holsters. This fellow took a quick glance at Edie and I and asked what kind of holster and proceeded to describe some that were in stock. Edie said she was looking for a “thigh holster” that could be strapped on your leg. The guy’s look and tone suddenly changed to what I read as very respectful as he said, “Oh, a tactical holster.” Edie replied, "That's right." He then gave us his undivided attention, and Edie and the guy discussed holsters a bit more. Throughout the conversation the guy repeatedly was saying "yes sir" and "no sir". They finally concluded that Bass Pro Shops did not carry what Edie was looking for. At that point the fellow told Edie about a shop that was likely to carry that type of holster. Edie thanked him for his time and we walked away. As we were leaving the guy said something to the effect of “glad to be of help, sir”, and then, “good hunting.” After we were out of hearing range of the guy, Edie was fuming a bit to me about having been “Sir’d”. I could hardly contain myself from laughing out loud at that point. I told Edie that it was obvious to me that from body language, tone of voice, and everything the guy had said – he thought Edie and I were a couple of undercover police officers. After thinking it over a bit, Edie agreed and we had a good laugh about it. Sometimes the wrong pronouns are a genuine effort at giving respect.

That's a great story Pheobe. Your too Ceera.
I'm not one that has gone out in public so I've never experienced this and not sure I've got the guts to try.
So knowing that I've never dressed it perplexes me, when service people or sales assistants sometimes refer to me as "ma'am" sometimes.
I can have four days of stubble, an allergy-stricken, raspy, deeper voice and my dozen or so hairs on the top of my head whisping in the breeze and still get called "ma'am".

Hmm... on second thought, maybe I could pull off going out among the muggles dressed.