Anti-TG Bias in Therapy

I'm curious what experience others have had with therapists being less than supportive.

I don't mean obvious disgust and condemnation, necessarily. I think most therapists (though I'm sure not all of them) are professional enough not to reveal their negative judgments of us.

I'm thinking more about a subtle lack of support or a tendency to want to change the subject (perhaps on the grounds that "oh, that's perfectly okay, so we don't need to talk about it").

Not to bore you with an extended tale of woe ... let's see if I can summarize briefly. My sexual feelings are all to do with CDing, but my romantic orientation is heterosexual, as a man toward a woman. I've had very little success in the area of romance and relationships -- and over the course of 30 years, off and on with several different therapists, therapy has done absolutely nothing to help me develop a healthy, committed intimate relationship, though I have repeatedly stressed (again, with several different therapists) that that was my goal.

So yesterday, after starting with a new therapist and getting a bit frustrated, I bought a copy of "Dating for Dummies." Chapter 2 is about having an inner sense of confidence, which one needs in order to be successful in dating. And it struck me that no therapist has ever, to the best of my recollection, focused on developing confidence. (Score one for "Dummies"!)

What _should_ have happened, but didn't -- a therapist should have said, "If you want to be successful in dating, you need to develop a sense of confidence about the whole process. Not just the sense that you're as good as anybody else, or that you have a right to expect a healthy relationship -- no, you need to have a sense that your prospects for a healthy, committed relationship are just as good as anybody else's, a confident sense that your CDing is not going to be a problem."

What I'm getting at is this: I don't think any therapist ever said that to me, and I suspect the reason is because of subconscious anti-TG bias. That is, I think they started by feeling (but not saying), "Oh, dear, getting this person into a healthy intimate relationship is going to be a real problem." They gave up before they even started, due to anti-TG bias ... and then they continued to take my money for an extended period of time.

I'm often too cynical, so maybe I'm wrong about this being evidence of bias. But I'm curious what experiences other gals have had with the professional community being less than fully supportive (while taking our money).

I attend a group therapy session for an issue other than cross dressing issues. I have heard comments from the counselor that are very bias against any alternative lifestyle; gay, lesbian, transgender. It was rather disturbing to hear those comments because I thought any counselor would have been enlightened in their world outlook. Cross dressing helps me with stress issues related to PTSD. Based on the comments I would never bring up my coping mechanism to alleviate stress. Any therapist/counselor needs to have a solid background in transgender issues. Always check his or her credentials.

While the terminology might be different, I'd be willing to be that most therapists, at one time or another, work with their patients on self esteem, which is in some respects synonymous with "confidence". In my own experiece, my therapist emphasized the importance of both self acceptance and postive self esteem as a foundations for not just dating, but for having successful relationships - intimate and otherwise. The reason isn't so much that you'll be confident in meeting and attracting a mate, but in having a health attitude about oneself, and avoid unhealth relationships based on filling some neediness.

Your suspicions migh be true, might not. Kinda hard to say.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

While the terminology might be different, I'd be willing to be that most therapists, at one time or another, work with their patients on self esteem, which is in some respects synonymous with "confidence". In my own experiece, my therapist emphasized the importance of both self acceptance and postive self esteem as a foundations for not just dating, but for having successful relationships - intimate and otherwise. The reason isn't so much that you'll be confident in meeting and attracting a mate, but in having a health attitude about oneself, and avoid unhealth relationships based on filling some neediness.

Your suspicions migh be true, might not. Kinda hard to say.

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Whether my suspicions are true ... we'll never know. That's why I thought it would be good to do an informal survey of others' experiences. It's true that therapists have tried to help me with my self-esteem, but really, I think that's a different issue. In most areas of my life, such as my professional accomplishments, I have very solid self-esteem. And in CDing, I at least accept myself -- I no longer have shame. To me, "confidence" is not just about feeling good about myself, it's also about feeling confident that the OTHER person will feel good about being with me, and that a relationship in which my sex drive is non-traditional and has nothing to do with my wife will WORK just as well as any other marriage.

Confidence, in my view, has a huge social dimension in terms of anticipating how other people will respond to me -- it's not just to do with how I feel about myself.

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Originally Posted by Jenna Lynne

To me, "confidence" is not just about feeling good about myself, it's also about feeling confident that the OTHER person will feel good about being with me, and that a relationship in which my sex drive is non-traditional and has nothing to do with my wife will WORK just as well as any other marriage.

Confidence, in my view, has a huge social dimension in terms of anticipating how other people will respond to me -- it's not just to do with how I feel about myself.

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Confidence (I still prefer the term self-esteem) is about how you feel about yourself. Confidence won't give you the ability to read minds or anticpate other people's responses. But you may be confident enough to "expects" people to respond positively. This expectation may affect your willingness to be available and open to others. So, in that respect it may improve the odds of meeting someone who in fact does respond postively.

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Originally Posted by kimdl93

Confidence (I still prefer the term self-esteem) is about how you feel about yourself. Confidence won't give you the ability to read minds or anticpate other people's responses. But you may be confident enough to "expects" people to respond positively. This expectation may affect your willingness to be available and open to others. So, in that respect it may improve the odds of meeting someone who in fact does respond postively.

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It may indeed improve the odds. In my case, it hasn't improved them enough....

Here's an over-used and therefore cheesy example, but one that I feel is entirely valid: Let's suppose you're a Jew living in Nazi Germany. You can have all of the positive self-esteem in the world with respect to your religion and culture, yet you'll still be living in daily terror of discovery, and if anybody discovers your secret, your social relations will be very severely damaged. Thus your sense of social confidence ("Will anybody suspect that I'm a Jew?") is entirely different from your positive self-regard and your pride in your religious heritage.

I'd think a big part of any bias is just that OK can't imagine most therapists get much training on gender issues. We are, as a group, kind of a statistical outlier, are we not? Also, I think therapists are people too, and issues relating to sexuality and gender identity raise questions that the therapist may be uncomfortable confronting in themselves. I know they are supposed to be trained, but what you learn in school and what you practice are often different in many walks of life.

BTW, most honest conversation I ever had about this was with an alcohol recovery counselor. That guy was really honest, I respected him a lot. (Some ******* burned him though and went blabbing about what he said in our therapy group out in public.)

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Originally Posted by Jenna Lynne

To me, "confidence" is not just about feeling good about myself, it's also about feeling confident that the OTHER person will feel good about being with me

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Which I think is a great attitude to have. However, following that up with:

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and that a relationship in which my sex drive is non-traditional and has nothing to do with my wife will WORK just as well as any other marriage.

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Does beg the question, how can a woman feel good about being in a relationship with you if she has no influence upon your sex drive? More to the point, you knowing that your sex drive has nothing to do with your partner, how can you possibly feel confident that she can feel good about being with you?

As for therapists, from what you write it sounds like you have had several. What is the longest time you have spent with any one therapist?

It would be interesting to know what you mean by non traditional.

If you wish to enter into a non sexual relationship with a woman than I would suggest meeting women that are assexual or do not practice sex for various reasons and the reasons are many.

In a culture that seems to be obsessed with sex you would be surprised by how many people actually do not practice sex and how many sexless marriages there actually are.

I think these numbers probably go up with age as many women experience consequences from menopause that makes sex painful where for the men many experience erectile problems.

Not all relationships are built around sex and companionship, plus the security in the knowledge that you are loved probably far exceeds the value of sex for many people.

For many people not going through life alone is more important than sex.

I think you may have made certain blanket assumptions that you are applying to all people but people can surprise you because no two are alike so it just becomes a matter of you fearlessly immersing yourself into the flow of humanity waiting for that moment where you bump up against someone else that fits into your life.

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Originally Posted by jenni_xx

... how can a woman feel good about being in a relationship with you if she has no influence upon your sex drive? More to the point, you knowing that your sex drive has nothing to do with your partner, how can you possibly feel confident that she can feel good about being with you?

As for therapists, from what you write it sounds like you have had several. What is the longest time you have spent with any one therapist?

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With respect to how a woman could feel good, I don't have a clue about that. That's why I don't feel confident -- I don't know! But I do think that's a question that should have been explored in great depth in therapy, and I don't recall that it ever was. I mean, therapists have said to me, "Not all women care that much about sex," but that isn't really a very reassuring statement, because I don't know how to find those women, how to broach the subject, or how to deal with the subsequent horribly painful rejection.

Longest time ... maybe three or four years. By now it's all a little hazy. That was half a lifetime ago.

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Originally Posted by KellyJameson

It would be interesting to know what you mean by non traditional.

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I think you may have made certain blanket assumptions that you are applying to all people but people can surprise you because no two are alike so it just becomes a matter of you fearlessly immersing yourself into the flow of humanity waiting for that moment where you bump up against someone else that fits into your life.

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It may not be entirely obvious what I mean by "non-traditional," but I don't think the details matter. The details are between me and my (non-existent) partner.

The difficulty I experience is precisely in "immersing [myself] into the flow of humanity." But again, I don't want this thread to derail into an exploration of Jenna Lynne's personal difficulties with having confidence. What I'm curious about is what I originally asked -- whether other people have encountered subtle (or obvious) anti-TG or anti-CD bias on the part of therapists.

Hi Jenna Lynne: I have a limited amount of experience with therapy and it had more to with family issues and marital issues so I don't have a lot to add. Therapy can either work great or fail miserably depending on the therapist and the patient.
You can find wisdom and truth most anywhere and in many different forms. I am glad that you found some advice that you can use in the "Dummies" book.
Sort of along the therapy lines, I have experience in going through marriage counseling from both a Catholic and Protestant perspective. Both Christian and both espousing the same ideas but I found that the Protestant perspective was more informative, in detail and down to Earth (and I am a lifelong Catholic).
You just have to keep looking for what will work best for you and I would explore all avenues available to you. You can get a lot of good advice here on this forum and I would also continue to read self-help books and continue with counseling whether it is with this counselor or one specializing in gender and relationship issues.

You pose an interesting question which I am not sure if I understand completely. I believe that confidence in one's self is important in a lot of areas of our lives. We need it in work, with our children and others and to help us avoid falling into that deep chasm of despair when we can't seem to accomplish what we want. Having confidence does not mean that we will achieve all of our goals, but I think it will definitely help us get close and sometimes reach some or most of them.

That being said, your statement that you think that "-- no, you need to have a sense that your prospects for a healthy, committed relationship are just as good as anybody else's, a confident sense that your CDing is not going to be a problem.", to me is putting too much emphasis on the confidence part while maybe ignoring the fact that the number of women who will feel comfortable dating and eventually marrying or getting into a very long term relationship with a MtF CD is very small. I do not believe that our prospects are as good as anyone else's because we have a much, much smaller field of prospects. I think that we should have confidence in ourselves that we are good people, are doing nothing wrong and don't really care what others think, or at least do not let other's opinions completely rule our decision making and actions.

I have heard this a lot in the last few years from women since I have been going out dressed and meeting new people all the time, women like confident men, and, like men who are fun to be with. We all have problems, but they do not want to be around people who put their problems out front in place of just having a good time. It sounds simple, but from what I read here it is not so simple for most CD's/TG's. It appears that fear, shame, and a lack of confidence greatly affect their ability to let their own personality shine through all the rest. All that sometimes just results in someone who is not fun to be around and thus unattractive to a lot of women.

Taking my own situation into consideration, I am over 60, retired, have my own personal preferences for what I want in a woman as a partner and have, based on that, a small slice of the overall dating pool pie to select from. Now, when I add in my new found CDing activities into the mix, which I do not plan on modifying greatly, that small slice now becomes a tiny sliver of potential women. I base all that on everything I have read here and my personal conversations with many women out in that real world. I agree that one should have some type of confidence in just about anything that one decides to do or accomplish, but one cannot ignore the reality of the situation either. I would rather say that I have the confidence that one day I will eventually find my partner rather than say that I have confidence that they (potential mates) will react positively to my me. Maybe it is just a different way of saying the same thing. I know that I am just hoping to be in the right place at the right time and recognize that and, most importantly, I act on that opportunity.

The part of your post that I don't clearly understand is what you mean by you have a non-traditional sex drive. Can you clarify that?

Regarding therapists, I have been to them in the past mostly for relationship issues, so I have no TG related counseling. However, I do believe that some therapists may and probably should hide their own biases if they do not negatively impact on their ability to help their client's. However, when it does interfere, they should act like the professionals that they are supposed to be and make a referral to someone more qualified to deal with the subject. One thing about therapists, which you probably already know, is that they are not really supposed to have all the answers and tell us what to do, but rather are there to help us understand, come to decisions, and help resolve internal issues that are interfering with our lives. As to what your therapists should have said to you in the past, who can say what is right or wrong and whether there was a TG bias, or maybe just a lack of knowledge and understanding of what this TG side of our lives really entails and all the varied side effects it can have on us. While I think that there are a lot of good non TG specialist or experienced therapists out there, one with that specific experience is probably the best choice when searching for help with TG related issues.

On a side note: Hello neighbor, I just live up the road from you.

Thanks, Allie. I agree with you that, statistically, we're drawing on a small pool of potential partners. But then, that's also true of people who have a strong identification with other stuff, such as committed Catholics and Muslims. One difference with CDers is that it's a lot more difficult to find out if your date is cool with CDing than it would be to find out if your date is a Catholic, a Republican, or a recovering substance abuser.

And then we get to the issues of being over 60. That's another whole can of worms.

Again, I don't think the details of my sex drive or what turns me on are important to this discussion. Those details would certainly be important in a close relationship ... but how one gets to the point in a dating relationship where the details need to be discussed I don't know. I've been there a few times, and have discussed the issues with a few different partners (not many), but how I stumbled into those relationships, I couldn't even begin to tell you, because I don't know.

On the subject of geographical proximity, I kind of wish there was a good TG support group in the Pleasanton/Dublin/Livermore area. As far as I know, there's nothing here. You can drive up to Walnut Creek, but I've never done that. I used to hang out at the Rainbow Gender group in San Jose, but that was 25 years ago. Anyway, I don't actually do any dressing anymore. My attitude is, "Who wants to dress up like a grandmother? How much fun would that be???"

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Originally Posted by Jenna Lynne

I'm curious what experience others have had with therapists being less than supportive.

I don't mean obvious disgust and condemnation, necessarily. I think most therapists (though I'm sure not all of them) are professional enough not to reveal their negative judgments of us.

I'm thinking more about a subtle lack of support or a tendency to want to change the subject (perhaps on the grounds that "oh, that's perfectly okay, so we don't need to talk about it").

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I can relate to this, it happened to me twice. One time with a psychiatrist that the way he handled the issue was at best disgusting and at worst disturbing. After two sessions of continuously ignoring my problem, he literally said to me when hearing what I wished about myself, and how much I crossdressed to attain the image that fits my personality more, with the next sentence: "Oh, and I want a mansion and five million euros. Deal with it.". Harsh right? Sounds hard to believe but this is true. Well I reacted aggressively to this obviously, as all he was doing is getting my family's money and doing nothing to improve my situation, so I left the place enraged after saying a few things to him.

The second time was with a psychologist, and she too ignored my true issue with such lame words you describe. Atleast she was better than the so called "psychiatrist" I mentioned above, but I have the same feeling about therapists Jenna, not to mention this country (Spain) fascist recent past, that even though today LGBT people has many rights, there are still many morons of this past era arround.

I was in therapy for something like 25 years with a therapist who I would say is pretty good. However, she seemed to have no interest in what my desire to wear skirts and the like meant to me. I only started wearing them a few years before I left therapy and was still trying to sort out what it all meant to me at the time, and I felt (and still feel) that the Internet was far more helpful than she was. She seemed to think that it all had to do with my relationship with my mother (because, as all therapists know, everything is ultimately about one's mother) and that I should be focussing on that rather than wasting time on my feelings about the clothes.

For me, this was simply one small example of a larger problem that I was having with her: that she had ideas of what was important and in what directions her patients should be going, and it did not mesh with my own sense of what was important to me and where I needed to go, and she wasn't willing to even admit there was an issue. If I objected to her emphasis or her insights, it was only because I had this need to prove myself right rather than Work On The Important Issues.

I also think that she (and I suspect most therapists are like this) preferred thinking she knew her patients better than they knew themselves (I call it "need to be the all-wise therapist") and was not comfortable dealing with an area where she would have been having to learn from me.

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Originally Posted by Asche

I was in therapy for something like 25 years with a therapist who I would say is pretty good.

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If I objected to her emphasis or her insights, it was only because I had this need to prove myself right rather than Work On The Important Issues.

I also think that she (and I suspect most therapists are like this) preferred thinking she knew her patients better than they knew themselves (I call it "need to be the all-wise therapist") and was not comfortable dealing with an area where she would have been having to learn from me.

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Recently I've been reading some critiques of psychotherapy (such as Claude Steiner's book "Scripts People Live") that suggest that when the therapist takes this one-up position (called in transactional analysis "I'm OK, You're Not OK") it's a serious form of abuse.

If I were in your shoes, I would seriously consider reporting that therapist to the licensing board in your area. I don't feel she has any business working with people who are emotionally vulnerable and in need of understanding and support. I'm not a professional, just an ordinary person, so I can't offer an expert assessment or legal advice -- and quite possibly I'm too prone to provoke arguments with folks whose intellectual standards offend me. (Some of my Facebook friends would, I'm sure, agree with this assessment.) But I do think you're describing a therapist who is seriously deficient.

Jenna, I have had a lot of experience dating. Both before my late in life marriage and since my divorce. I've also had experience with several therapists.

I believe u may be confused about what they do. Which is help u with personal adjustment issues. If u haven't told a therapist that u have adjustment issues with women in person, they couldn't know or help.

However, if u don't have issues when u meet a women, only a lack of opportunities to meet and date them, u need a dating service, not a counselor.

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

... I've also had experience with several therapists.

I believe u may be confused about what they do. Which is help u with personal adjustment issues. If u haven't told a therapist that u have adjustment issues with women in person, they couldn't know or help.

However, if u don't have issues when u meet a women, only a lack of opportunities to meet and date them, u need a dating service, not a counselor.

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I'm not sure it's possible to parse the distinction in such a neat way. Not in my experience, anyway. I'm pretty sure there's some overlap between the low frequency with which I meet women and the less than satisfactory outcomes when I do meet a woman that I'm interested in. My thumbnail description of the connection between those two phenomena would be "expecting that it isn't going to work." And of course, it never does, so my expectations are firmly reinforced. Negative expectations are presumably something a psychologist is equipped to grapple with. At least, I hope so.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "personal adjustment issues." Since I don't know what that phrase refers to, I can't say for certain that I have or haven't mentioned having such issues. I've certainly mentioned a great many things to therapists, including my sometimes very strong sense that a possible relationship is not going to work.

The idea that I just haven't met the right woman is tempting, and one might expect that a dating service would help with that, but unfortunately there seems to be no such thing as a dating service in that sense. Not that I've found.

There are certainly professional matchmakers, but their business model is entirely different, and their clientele (which apparently consists of highly paid executives on the male side and gorgeous young women in search of rich husbands) is based on their business model. I've looked at a few of those matchmaking websites, and it's very clear that they would have no services that would be of any use to a 60-year-old with my particular set of personal traits and tastes.

I've done a fair amount of scouting around on the free personals dating websites as well. Actually had coffee with a woman last year that I met through one of those sites. It didn't lead to anything, though. And I have to be honest -- not only are the great majority of women on those sites not my type of person culturally or intellectually, the ones in my age group are also not even faintly attractive. I spend half an hour poring through profiles, and at the end of it I feel sick. My head is telling me, "This is never going to work." When I spot a woman who seems to be a prospect, I send her a message ... but nothing has ever come of it.

Hi,

Id rather talk to you about ...you... in all this .& then talk with those who you may have tryed to have a friendship with,

Im looking at the crux of the issue If you'r looking to others to get help in a professanale manner , the answer that you need lie's with you.

Those i work with ill ask every thing about them then look at the problems & issues they have , then ill quide them to things or ways that may help till we find the keys to open the door or doors they need to access so they can pass through,

Some things that come up many times is a lack of love your self confidence in your self as a person,love your body accept the way you are,

Some put stumbling block's in front of them selfs, other's have been abused hurt, & many others ....NEED.... to forgive them selfs, not because of what they have done to them selfs its about what others have done to them they take on & live with what the other has done to them as though they had done it , this applys more so to us, who are women,

Im not saying all or any of this apply's to you. just we need to see the situition from an out sider's view, to see what's holding us back..

I know, iv been there, & some have been major issue's.

Allso the ? about your self does it apply in other area's of your life, because that may have a bearing with many factors & issue's you may have, ill stop here as it start's to get very personal so a email would be in order,

...noeleena...

I have seen the same therapist about seven times now, and five sessions were almost 100% about CDing. Before I started seeing her, I asked over the phone if she dealt with TG issues. Although not her specialty, she said she did. She knew little about it but had several clients who were in the same boat as me. Basically she asked a lot of questions to try and understand how far I was going with it and really didn't give me any answers, but the questions she posed made me reflect and figure things out myself. It has helped my relationship with my wife. I don't know if that helps.

As a health care professional, I haven't seen any recent therapists that have had any bias against TG patients. Years ago, it was pretty common, but most newer ones that I work with are accepting and do their best to accomodate the patient's feelings and beliefs. The biggest problem, however, is that there simply aren't a lot of gender therapists out there, and the vast majority of insurance coverage will only pay for a limited amount of psychiatric care. With many TG patients having trouble holding down jobs because of their concurrent depression and difficulties with even daily tasks, it can make effective solutions for the vast majority of those patients impossible. Like most other difficulties in life, nearly all MTF TG patients are expected by the general population to just 'man up' and deal with their problems on their own.

The more things change, the more things stay the same.