"Im so tired of needing to always be a man"

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

I have very little experience with cross-dressing so perhaps I'm completely wrong, but I don't consider them to be frustrated transsexuals. I consider them to be men who enjoy cross-dressing because they feel some need to express some kind of 'femininity' and they don't know how to do it any other way.

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Yep, that's where you are going wrong all right.

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All I'm trying to say is maybe they should consider the crazy idea of trying to find ways to work their real personality into their real lives. I am not saying they should come out as TS or CD or anything too freaky, just be three dimensional men. Clearly this concept is too progressive for this forum but I pity anyone who is so ruled by fear that they can't even admit to enjoying a sappy movie or a pedicure with their daughter.

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I'm saying that as a non-CD who was fine being identified as a gay man until you transitioned, that you just don't have a whole bunch of understanding of what many CDs here go through. Want to express some femininity? Fine - people will assume you are gay because this is the only template of gender variance most heteronormative folks have. This is fine if you are attempting to live as a gay man (I know this didn't work for you), but for a suburban dude in normalsville, this is going to cause problems.

And yes, you should feel sympathy for people who are so ruled by fear. It's a horrible feeling - one you obviously don't understand well. You can keep your pity though. Nobody here wants it.

I'm not tired of the things I do as a man I was brought with the attitude of there's no such word as can't, so I would have been a trier but my sister is also a trier . I have probably achieved more as a man, but then we have a spanner in the works some how in my brain a streak of femininity crept in maybe even from birth and it's very hard if not impossible to ignore because it's always there it gives me something a man's life can never give.

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. . . couldn't you let yourself be a little flappable . . .

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In a way, JessM, that's like asking if I couldn't just not dress. Decades of social and peer conditioning, training in the formative years which led to permanent brain and behavior wiring, blah-blah-blah. It could also be part of the male DNA that I just can't explain. In any event, the package has helped helped me be very successful in the drab universe and I'm not looking to alter that. I've simply learned to be OK with dressing, use it in a way that works for me, and not beat myself up for doing it.

On a related note, I think my wife and I spent a good 10-12 years trying to figure it all out. Pepper in some counseling (total waste of time) and we finally decided that we're both good with it, and not to try and read too much into it. Being in this forum has helped to fill in some of the blanks.

Responses are all over the place, as Laura predicted in the first reply (Post #2), because we are different. There are men who like being men and accept the role but just like to dress up (the CD) , there are men who don't like being men (the TG -they have hijacked the term "transgender" for themselves), and there are those who aren't men but are stuck with male bodies and the expectations that come with a penis (the TS).
For those who don't like the expectations your SO has, did you let her know that from the beginning?
For every expectation for being male there is an expectation for being female. The guy that is expected to fix the car seems to be totally unable to operate a needle and thread to sew on a button. At work , there was a department meeting - about 8 men and one woman - guess who was asked to make coffee.
Women complaining about male privilige and men complaining about male responsibility are two sides of the same coin.

Hi JessM,

Very interesting question and one I have not given any thought to simply because I cannot explain why I do what I do. Adhering to stereotypical roles . . . I do that not because it is expected but because I truly enjoy doing them. For example, I love being a solider is that the realm of men in Canada . . . nope as there are plenty of female combat soldiers. They like me do it because they enjoy it. I fix cars, do renovations, clear brush, play sports but then again so do women. I also enjoy cooking and absolutely love to vacuum. I don't do these things en femme (okay sometimes) I do them because I love to do them.

So what does that leave . . . the dressing I guess. Yes, I love the feel of women's clothing on my body and I love the fact that I can now go out in public dressed as such and I don't care. Do I do it so I can stop feeling like a man . . . nope. One look at me will only confirm that I am a guy and no amount of clothing or make-up is going to change that.

When I get together with my friends who know about Isha whether I am en femme or en boy, I talk about the same things as my likes, dislikes and vices have not changed . . . so still very much a guy. However, the one thing I do know that I enjoy "en femme" which I cannot "en boy" is a calming effect I get when I am with my GG friends. Our conversations are the same as when I am "en boy" but for some reason their acceptance of me is akin to the same acceptance I feel when I with my guy friends "en boy". May seem silly, but I feel a greater affinity to my GG friends when I am Isha then when I am "en boy"

So that is the one thing that I find differs. Other than that . . . same old, same old whether I am in skirt and heels or a suit and tie.

Hugs

Isha

Nicole I can mend a car ( I'm quite good at breaking them!), but when some clothes came through too big I taught myself to use a sewing machine, shortened the hem took the sides in, but gave the game away, I left the thread in, not a colour the wife had been using.

In my vunderstanding, this post askes if 'escape from the responsibilities of being a man is a motivator for CDing. I agree with Nicole that there are perhaps as many motivators for CDing as there are CDrs. I also submit that this question is less relevant to TG or TS people, or those who cd as a fetish or for the sheer fun of dressing up. It seems that if an individual sees CDing as a way to escape perceived 'male' responsibility they are fixing the wrong problem with the wrong solution.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

And yes, you should feel sympathy for people who are so ruled by fear. It's a horrible feeling - one you obviously don't understand well. .

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For the last time, I never suggested that dudes should ACT feminine. I assure you there are big manly Texans who are doing everything I'm suggesting and nobody thinks they're gay or CD's.

I guess on this forum, being anything less than cartoonishly macho is tantamount to being gay. I think I'm beginning to understand why women think it's so awful to be married to a CD. Here's a hint, it ain't the cross-dressing that's the problem.

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I had a rash of PM's after this post, all supportive except for one. Since I detest writing in PM's because I'd rather not let people hide their opinions from the board, I'm adding some thoughts here.

I was speaking to the guys that feel like they have to be macho jerks lest someone will "know". I was speaking to the dudes that feel like they have to be dressed up before they can listen to Britney or watch a chick flick, or just be a sweetie to someone. The guys that have nearly split personalities who feel like they MUST pretend to like sports or love working on cars.

I'm just saying if you don't like working on cars, then stop doing it. If you don't like hunting, then stop doing it. I'm just trying to get across that there are plenty of manly men as well as not so manly men who don't hunt and fish, and I know really tough looking dudes that would think nothing of getting a mani/pedi with their wives or daughters. I don't know too many guys that would get in their face about it either. I am NOT saying dudes should flame out and be fabulous, I'm just saying they can relax a little and start enjoying their lives a bit WITHOUT coming out as anything other than an interesting dude. Not a feminine dude, just a regular guy who is okay with taking his car to the shop, or letting a buddy work on his motorcycle. Be manly in the ways that you enjoy. Just be real.

Cross-dress in private if you want, nobody has to know what you do behind closed doors. I'm not suggesting that being yourself will "cure" you of cross-dressing, I'm just saying that you might be happier if you stop volunteering to do things you hate doing.

I met a fireman once who had beautiful nails. Not girly, just well kept, and believe me this dude was ALL man. ;-)

The answer is learning to be confident in your masculinity. Once you realize you have nothing to prove, you'll stop trying so hard to prove something.

Misty, I am unsurprised that mine was the only unsupportive email you received. My opinion is in the minority here, and always has been. This won't change. I do feel it is pretty unfair of you to accuse me of hiding behind a PM - I have been pretty directly critical of you in this thread because I think you are wrong, and that you are totally missing the point.

And if you were in front of me, and said 'I pity these guys' which is what you said here, I'd tell you 'how dare you condescend to these people!'

It is unfair of you to take out your own insecurities on others. These men have real problems that aren't going to be solved by listening to Beyoncé's latest.

Edit: what I find so interesting, hon, is why you are so passionate about arguing over a topic you ADMIT you don't understand. Why is that?

Now someone could say of me that I'm trans and that my views are skewed. That's no doubt true - but I lived as on overcompensating closeted CD off and on for 40 years of my life, and I am telling you flat out that you simply have no idea what you are talking about here, and are attempting to cover that with your defense mechanisms of snark and hot air. Why is that?

I hope this can stay civil; I think we all only want everyone to have as easy a life as possible.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Neither woman I married could handle any display of emotion on my part . My current wife completely freaked if I displayed uncertainty. I had to be decisive and confident all the time. At jobs I've had - are you kidding me? I can't imagine crying at work - my management wouldn't have tolerated it.

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Paula, why did you marry two women who couldn't handle you being at all sensitive or emotional? That's a serious question -- did you believe at the time that you could go through the rest of your life being the strong, stoic one? Or did you think they would change?

Also, about the workplace, I should say that women aren't allowed to cry there either. Not anywhere I've ever worked, anyway.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I lived as on overcompensating closeted CD off and on for 40 years of my life,

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Paula, isn't it fair to say that you only thought you were a CDer? perhaps even hoped you were a CDer! but in reality you were TS... right? I mean, CDers don't just suddenly become TSes, you either are or you are not. That being said can you see that your experience would be different than your average CDer who is OK with being a guy?

Anyway I think Misty makes some good points.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

Paula, why did you marry two women who couldn't handle you being at all sensitive or emotional? That's a serious question -- did you believe at the time that you could go through the rest of your life being the strong, stoic one? Or did you think they would change?

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I didn't realize that's what I was getting myself into - my second wife was VERY independent. When we met. When we moved in together, for example, she wanted to split the rent and bills 50/50, even though I made about 3x her income. She got pissed off at me for trying to setup the VCR, instead of letting her do it. She had her own job and career path. I always encouraged her to educate herself and encouraged her to pursue a career and her dreams. She seemed so strong when I met her. She changed, or maybe I overlooked something fundamental, or maybe I somehow undermined her, in the most loving, but enabling way.

I don't have an answer to that question, and I know I need to address it. I'm trying to fit in some codependence support groups, or al-anon (both deal with this issue extensively), but my support group schedule is really full right now. So that may have to wait a little bit - I seem to be at my limit of things I can work on about myself currently. I am very aware and concerned about this however, and I fully intend to come to an understanding of it, such as I can. I'd really like to do this sooner, rather than later.

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Also, about the workplace, I should say that women aren't allowed to cry there either. Not anywhere I've ever worked, anyway.

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No, they are not allowed to do that either. But while a woman who cries at work will be seen as "weak", a man who cries will be seen as having a complete meltdown. The corporate world is pretty cruel to everyone, and neglect of your family and social life are actively encouraged in many corporations. We are all supposed to be little emotionless drones, doing our job, while the sociopaths who frequently rule us rage on.

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

Paula, isn't it fair to say that you only thought you were a CDer? perhaps even hoped you were a CDer! but in reality you were TS... right? I mean, CDers don't just suddenly become TSes, you either are or you are not.

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1. I believe I acknowledged this.
2. every TS I know who CDed at an early age wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Do you think that some number of the folks on this forum are any different? You want to know how you can tell the "future" TS girls apart from the "just a CDer?" You can't. (Believe me, plenty of folks on the TS forum here flatly told me that I wasn't a TS, but a CD. Either they were wrong, or the system is broken, and I'm insane. Take your pick.) Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

More to the point, what part of being terrified of discovery, and hiding something fundamental about myself seems fundamentally different between a CDing TS and a CDer? The gay guys in my LGBT AA group often have very similar experiences of hiding and shame. I'm not a gay man, but I totally understand how they feel. Hiding something fundamental about how you are is a horrible and negating experience.

I find it fascinating that women who tell others, before they start transition, "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

What is up with that? Were you never afraid?

edit: one last note - it isn't so much that I think BT's suggestions are unhelpful, particularly coming from someone who has no firsthand experience with the matter. Hey, for some people, what she suggests might work. It was the condescension implied in the word "pity" that really sets me off. NO ONE on this forum is any less, nor is there suffering any less real than ANY TS.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

every TS I know who CDed at an early age wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Do you think that some number of the folks on this forum are any different? You want to know how you can tell the "future" TS girls apart from the "just a CDer?" You can't. (Believe me, plenty of folks on the TS forum here flatly told me that I wasn't a TS, but a CD. Either they were wrong, or the system is broken, and I'm insane. Take your pick.) Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

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Not every one. I crossdressed at an early age...around 4 or so....and I always knew I was a girl, even before I knew there was such a word as transsexual. Did I want to be a crossdresser? No! I wanted to be a girl. When asked why I crossdressed my response was..."it is the only way I can find to make me look like a girl".

How do you tell a ts girl apart from "just a cd"? You cannot, but many times they know. (I did)

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Originally Posted by almostalady

How do you tell a ts girl apart? You cannot, but many times they know.

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Thanks Angela, you are right, and I stand corrected. I should have said that I know many trans women, like me, who didn't have the courage to admit what they knew, or couldn't figure it out for themselves, who wanted to be "just a cross dresser." Once you are married and have a couple of kids, the impetus to stay in denial is quite powerful, and the fears about consequences are quite real.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

The corporate world is pretty cruel to everyone, and neglect of your family and social life are actively encouraged in many corporations.

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This is the worst of male behavior and male privilege. To me, the way corporations treat employees is the same thing as men being jerks. Men and women who don't want to go along with the corporate game are viewed as sissies and face problems of their own in keeping a job or getting a promotion. And it is caused by men, since men run the corporate world.

Someone (a GG) once told me that to get to the top, you have to be a man, preferably white, who thinks and acts like a white man. This means gender variants who don't act like men are screwed. Women are screwed. Non-whites are screwed. Even white men who don't act white get screwed. Many other cultures aren't so workaholic like the white man.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

NO ONE on this forum is any less, nor is there suffering any less real than ANY TS.

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That's right. CD and TS and other gender variants all have real issues, and real suffering. The issues may be fundamentally different, while some overlap - we all try to hide a fundamental part of ourselves from others. But we all suffer.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

She seemed so strong when I met her. She changed, or maybe I overlooked something fundamental, or maybe I somehow undermined her, in the most loving, but enabling way.

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Sounds like you're saying it's possible that you brought gender rigidity to the marriage, and boxed both of you in so that she had to be the weak one and you had to be the strong one. I think what BadTranny and I are talking about is trying to encourage people to do as much as they can to break down those rigid boxes, even without coming out of any kind of closet.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

I find it fascinating that women who tell others... "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

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I'm a fan of more cultural change, of the sort that led to women being able to wear pants and men being able to have long hair. I encourage everyone to try to get past the rigid boxes. For most men, that won't mean wearing lipstick or stockings. But it might mean letting yourself cry in front of your wife; taking your car to a mechanic; staying home with the children while your wife brings in the salary; or dancing however you want to dance, at least in the privacy of your own home.

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Originally Posted by JessM.

Sounds like you're saying it's possible that you brought gender rigidity to the marriage, and boxed both of you in so that she had to be the weak one and you had to be the strong one.

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No, I don't think that's the entire story. My wife's father was a VERY weak man. She hated him - a lot. In her mind, men who showed weakness weren't men at all. Her step-dad, who she idolized was a hard driving, man's man. So you combine that with my fortress like walls of gender bullshit, and yeah, you wind up with where we ended up as soon as the idea of "yep, I'm a girl" comes up. It wasn't obvious to me at the time. I knew, but denied my own issues. I never knew about her relationship with her father (she didn't even speak to him when we married - I could relate, I didn't speak to my dad either), until years later, when I watched her interact with him.

Having never watched such a dynamic play out, I don't think there's any way I could've predicted all this, at least at the outset.

I am going to be mindful of my habit of trying to rescue people though. It is a real character failing on my part when I apply it to relationships.

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I think what BadTranny and I are talking about is trying to encourage people to do as much as they can to break down those rigid boxes, even without coming out of any kind of closet.

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I agree with this, and like the way you said it - there was no implicit condescension in what you said. The rigid boxes our society places us in makes the problems of gender variant individuals MUCH worse. Unfortunately, I don't think that breaking down the boxes will fix all this stuff. It will just let us deal with it openly, honestly, and humanely.



I'm a fan of more cultural change, of the sort that led to women being able to wear pants and men being able to have long hair. I encourage everyone to try to get past the rigid boxes. For most men, that won't mean wearing lipstick or stockings. But it might mean letting yourself cry in front of your wife; taking your car to a mechanic; staying home with the children while your wife brings in the salary; or dancing however you want to dance, at least in the privacy of your own home.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Edit: what I find so interesting, hon, is why you are so passionate about arguing over a topic you ADMIT you don't understand. Why is that?

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Passionate?

I wouldn't say I cared that much, I just don't like to be misunderstood or worse, mis-characterized. My own insecurities? That makes me LOL.

I admit that my cross-dressing experience was rather limited but I WAS in the closet for most of my life so far because I thought I was gay. I was a bonafide park cruising closet queen who's blown a dude in an adult book store or two. During the light of day, I was a full on pretender who would work out a lot, talk about guns a lot and even pushed a couple of weaker guys around to prove my manhood. I was raised in a little crap hole town in way Southern Louisiana and spent my early adult life in Bakersfield CA, so I know a little bit about rigid gender roles and being on the down low among fearsome redneck assholes.

Sure I wasn't cross-dressing, but I was a self hating closet queer who was doing things that were a LOT more dangerous than CD'ing with my wife. You think I don't know about over compensation? I did all kinds of things that I didn't want to do just so nobody would think I was a fag. I didn't drink a drop of alcohol throughout my twenties because I was afraid I would get drunk and forget to watch my posture, or my body language, or whatever. I guess I was afraid I would be a big drunk queen for some reason so I stayed sober until I was almost 30 and began to get a little more comfortable with myself, but it wasn't until I was 37 or so that I started coming out. Slowly.

I'm talking to people that identify as men, yet are not secure in their own masculinity. I'm telling them to do the work and become secure in who they are and expand the definition of what a "real" man is because their current line of thinking is no way to live.

Anyhoo, I'm beginning to grow weary of this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

I'm just saying if you don't like working on cars, then stop doing it. If you don't like hunting, then stop doing it. I'm just trying to get across that there are plenty of manly men as well as not so manly men who don't hunt and fish, and I know really tough looking dudes that would think nothing of getting a mani/pedi with their wives or daughters. I don't know too many guys that would get in their face about it either. I am NOT saying dudes should flame out and be fabulous, I'm just saying they can relax a little and start enjoying their lives a bit WITHOUT coming out as anything other than an interesting dude. Not a feminine dude, just a regular guy who is okay with taking his car to the shop, or letting a buddy work on his motorcycle. Be manly in the ways that you enjoy. Just be real.

Cross-dress in private if you want, nobody has to know what you do behind closed doors. I'm not suggesting that being yourself will "cure" you of cross-dressing, I'm just saying that you might be happier if you stop volunteering to do things you hate doing.

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Originally Posted by Badtranny

The answer is learning to be confident in your masculinity. Once you realize you have nothing to prove, you'll stop trying so hard to prove something.

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Misty, thank you for posting this!

I've observed over the years CDers who prefer to split their personalities and likes and dislikes into activities that only the "reluctant he" or the "suppressed she" can do. They do not allow themselves to do certain things they enjoy in guy mode, and they do things in guy mode that they hate. Even my SO for years felt that as a guy he shouldn't collect art and take ballroom dance lessons because ... I don't know ... maybe some people would guess who s/he was inside? It's all better now, my SO has fully integrated herself and is all that much happier for it. :)

The members who split themselves up do seem to have pretty strict, stereotypical gender role boxes. I do think they would benefit by allowing their preferences to come to the surface in guy mode, even if they chose to keep the CDing private from most people in their lives.

Live and learn.

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Originally Posted by PaulaQ

Why then would my experience be irrelevant?

I find it fascinating that women who tell others, before they start transition, "be prepared to lose everything" (which is sound advice!), feel free to tell fearful gender variant individuals who are at some unknown place on the spectrum "oh you go girl! Dip your toes in the water! It's all GOOD!"

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Not only do you have a chip on your shoulder you seem to like to put words in peoples mouths.

I never said your experience was irrelevant, just different. You are TS are you not? Then your experience is different from your average heterosexual, CDer.

I'm not telling anyone "you go girl" or "its all good" nor is Misty. NO ONE is saying you have to shout "I'm a CDer" from the roof tops all she is saying, and I agree, is that its possible to be a regular joe without putting on airs of machismo BS.

What "water" is it that you imagine I or Misty or any other TS posting here is suggesting someone dip their toe in??

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Originally Posted by Aprilrain

I never said your experience was irrelevant, just different. You are TS are you not? Then your experience is different from your average heterosexual, CDer.

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I disagree that it is fundamentally different, except in degree. Most of these people are experiencing minor degrees of GD, and it is manifesting itself in terms of cross dressing. The behavior between someone like me, and someone like them is indistinguishable except after the fact. I'd like to know why you think it is fundamentally different, other than that would be SUPER convenient and WAY less scary for many on this forum. I'm sorry, but that just isn't how it seems to me. People here have good reasons to be afraid.

As for a chip on my shoulder, sure. Misty waltzes in here, spouts off on something she admittedly doesn't know anything about, and then talks about "pity" for the folks who overcompensate. I think that is massively condescending, and I won't stand for that type of treatment of other members.

Gee, I know plenty of TS girls who massively overcompensated because GD made them scared and it also frequently made them angry miserable people to be around. Doesn't that sound a whole lot like a CDer who overcompensates and is angry and miserable to be around when they don't CD for a while? It differs in degree, but the behaviors seem a whole lot alike to me.

I know several people on this forum who've tried, either deliberately or inadvertently, to incorporate feminine behaviors into their lives. About the best you can really get away with is to stop massively overcompensating. Some of the ones I know have suffered for their behavior.

My objection is the overall lack of sympathy, the condescending snark, and general blathering about a topic she knows nothing about. If she'd cut the "pity" crap, I wouldn't have said a word, except perhaps to disagree with her.

I'm sure that some of us would like to shead all the male responsibilities in our relationships. However, in a good marriage each partner takes on the tasks they can handle best. So I do all the home repairs and contract out what I don't know how to do. I work on all the cars and love it when I get one of the old ones purring. I love remodeling parts of the house to the point that my wife does not want me to start any more projects. I love sharing my opinion with her when we watch "Say Yes to the Dresss" or "Beverly Hills Wives." She won't see me dressed and never will. Her wishes. She hates housekeeping, doing the laundry or loading the dishwasher. I don't mind it at all. She brings in the bigger bucks while I make woman's wages as a nurse so the least I can do is clean. But when we go out, I'm the male. There is nothing femmie about me in drab. I keep the girly mannerisms for my dress up days and even those are very subtle. Only drag queens wave all over the place because they don't want to blend. I do. I can live like this for a long time and already have.

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The members who split themselves up . . .

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Hey, Reine, I resemble that remark :doh::D

Seriously, it's not that black and white. Try as we may to compartmentalize the genders into neat, sterile dimensions forever, it's simply the start of a very long journey. Quoting my wife, ". . . after a while seepage starts to occur. You can't completely rid yourself of one in exchange for the other as you once did. With every round trip more sticks and less gets left behind. Thus, it doesn't matter how good you may think you are at concealing things, it starts to show and people start to notice."

So, what I've observed is we all do this differently and in the end that has to be okay. My generation equipped itself with some pretty strong anti-CD sentiments. More recent generations not so much so. No doubt, then, we'll make the journey at different individual speeds (and I will mirror the tortoise more than the hare.) Most importantly, we have to love ourselves and who we are lest we become disfunctional or worse. It took me a quite while to do that and to learn I really am OK.

It would help, too, if we stay respectful of one another. I notice this thread taking on some hairpin turns and in a way that's sad. If we can't coexist peacefully with with our differences is it rational to expect the rest of society will do it for us? Also, I like to think that if we approach this from a thousand or ten thousand different angles we're more likely to make progress than everyone piling in one wagon.

Lastly, I for one will never be the activist that blazes the CD trail, but I will be a strong supporter for those who do blaze the trail and in small ways I will help clear the path. Full social acceptance for what we do is probably not likely in my lifetime. It would be nice to see full tolerance, or to even see disgust completely replaced by curiosity.

I remain thankful I have a supportive spouse to love, and awesome children and grandchildren to dote on. I devote myself to doing that and candidly the yeahs and nea's of CD-ing rank low most of the time. In any event, you can bet I won't miss a good shoe sale because I'm conflicted. :battingeyelashes:

Miss Tee, I meant the members who really do split themselves up into two different personas. Not everyone does this.

Many of the members refer to themselves dressed in the third person, or they say they have certain personality traits or likes/dislikes while dressed that they do not have when not dressed. Years ago, even my own SO felt there were things (quite ordinary things if I may add), that s/he couldn't/wouldn't do in guy mode. This is all changed now, but it took a concerted effort and a lot of introspection.

Jess and Misty have a great point. Why wouldn't a CDer (like Stephanie in #72) be OK with watching chick flicks with their wives, giving heartfelt opinions on the outfits the wives are wearing, enjoy cooking, or whatever else they enjoy doing. Why must these things be reserved for times when CDers are wearing feminine clothing?

This is just an observation, but it astounds me when some members refer to their softer proclivities as their femininity seeping out. My ex (your generation), despite all his faults (lol), was so secure in himself that he was never embarrassed when he cried or when he had a tea party with his little niece, or when he enjoyed watching a chick flick with me. This was a man who cared about how he looked and he was well groomed. He didn't enjoy mucking about with cars, hunting, or any of that stuff. Yet he was still a man. My point is that he was not rigid with his own self-definition the way that so many CDers in this forum seem to be. Does this make sense?

I just think that many if not most CDers grew up so frightened to be found out they constructed thick "masculine" walls around themselves which really is a prison of their own making. A CDer can be a man like my ex and just relax his own rules a bit, enjoy being his own brand of male that is not ultra macho, and keep the CDing private from his friends and employer if he wishes. I think he'd be happier doing this than posturing himself into a rigid masculine role that he does not enjoy.

Yeah the walls we construct are often over built. Just keep in mind that they exist as much to keep something in as they are for protection. So if you crack the gates open a little, it isn't certain just what will come out, or whether you'll put it back in the box later. Assuming the whole edifice doesn't collapse.

Be careful what you wish for I guess.