The 50 shades of "Passing" and "Self confidence".

Reading yet another strongly supported thread about one of us who goes out often and doesn't give a darn if she's clocked. That's nice. And, very important if u r TS and live as a female. Or, r a CD who is out and goes out dressed often. If u need to dress and go out u need to live your life without fear.:thumbsup:
But, MOST of us don't fall into those catagories. Most r closet dressers like me.

But, when I look at the avatars of the confident posters? They all look quite passable to me.

Here's my point: Passing is the Golden Standard. If u can pass, even some of the time? It makes going out much less stressful. Compared to those of us that don't never pass. Let me correct that. Maybe I can pass from behind. But, since I will never see that person looking me it doesn't really count.:straightface:

I go out often. I just did 5 days out and dressed in Vegas. Thotful staff referred to me as, "Mam". One said, "Sir", then added, "Mam". Sometimes women walking past would smile at me. But, it was always that "knowing" smile. Which says, "Of course, you're a guy in a dress. So what?" Men usually don't give me that, or any smile. For which I'm thankful!:heehee:

I'm a closet dresser who constantly notices the disapproving looks. Blank stares. Or, hears titters and comments; "That was a guy!", "Did u see that?", "What the hell?", "OMG!", etc. I've gotten used to it but still don't like it!:sad: I find it stressful and it can be quite discouraging. If I could pass once and awhile it would be much less stressful.

It makes me wonder if other dressers accept a steady diet of that same crap?
So, my question is for all u "confident" girls who go out dressed anywhere at the drop of a summer hat? Where do u think u r on the "Passing Scale"? :brolleyes:

0%- Never, like me. Except from behind or midnite at the North Pole.:doh:

25%- U pass some of the time. This includes everyone who sees u; passerbys, glancing at u as u drive by, everyone!:straightface:

50%- Half the time folks may think you're a female.:)

75%- Most folks see u as a woman.:D
95%+- U pass nearly all the time, everywhere.:love:

Maybe 2% of the time, but I really don't think I "pass" I just blend and get by with minimal comments that I've become used to so no big deal.

I am much too self conscious for my own good. I am much too concerned with what others think of me and therefore much to aware of peoples reactions to my presence.

I dont dress anymore as I have explained elsewhere, but I went through a long escalation of my dressing activities, getting to a point where I considered if I needed to be full time.

When I was younger, I think I passed reasonably well, but being realistic and humble about it, let me settle on your 25% point of the scale. Maybe I did better, but again I am and always were very conscious about it all.
Now, if I were to dress again and go out, I think I would be in the 0% category. From a mile away, in the dark, yes, I would have a chance, but I am really not interested in that.

Back when I did go out quite a bit, those moments when someone clearly (to me) read me, were devastating! It could completely ruin a day or more and it would make me not go out for a long time.

I can preach all day long to others that passing doesnt matter and that it is all a matter of what makes you feel good, to hell with everybody else. But the fact is, I almost never take my own advise.

I have often found myself envious (in that good kinda' way, you know!) of others who are able to simply not care what others think of them. I wish I could do that.

- Suzie

Like Suzie I'm not actively dressing theses day, but back in the day I'd say I was passing 50-75% of the time. It always brought me up a little short when I was read, but that just motivated me to find ways to minimize my male traits. The confidence aspect cannot be overstated. o.k. that and having been blessed with a small body frame. A lot of it has to do with your basic personality and how easily you let other people's comments roll off your back. I was never one to take the criticism of strangers too seriously, but then I did a lot of theater in high school so I was used to being critiqued by people whose opinion did matter. Strangers were nothing to me.

Update: Just wanted to add that for the 25-50% who did see me as a man in a dress I hope they at least thought "but he's a pretty man in a dress."

I'll play Sherry.

For anyone who looks at me eye to eye: 0%

Anyone with whom I converse: 0%

I think I should add that I suspect they think I have transitioned as opposed to being a cross dresser. When I met my hair stylist the first time, she asked if I was full-time. It's my opinion that transition is more known than cross dressing.

I would say I'm somewhere on the scale of 10 to 25 percent but maybe not that good. I'm more confidant going out then I use to be but that doesn't mean I'm passing. I just think who really cares anyway so many people are just minding there own business.

0 % In my corset out having coffee this morning
25% once I changed in to my shopping clothes today
Attachment 244059
50% in the day time, when I put more real clothes on, besides most people are to busy to on their IPhone to look my way, or they don't care to comment.
75% if they have been drinking heavily
95% if they are blind & deaf

I think I'm somewhere in the 25% to 50% range, but I might be fooling myself. It's impossible to know what's going through the heads of those who see me, or what conversations may follow after I have passed by. I have had a few experiences where people have interacted with me at pretty close range (SAs at a women's boutique, for example) and not figured it out, which totally shocked me when they happened. On the other hand, I've been "made" in some casual and long distance contacts when I wasn't expecting it, also.

- Diane

I would say 50 to 60% if my makeup is just right.:battingeyelashes:

Same here Natalie, 50% is good enough for me.

Sherry,
I went out tonight in a nice dress with my SO to a movie and dinner at chili's. WE were both called ladies several time tonight and I thought that I passed really good. Never got to many looks except from a few men who may have admired me because a lady in a dress is always pretty. We tried to take a couple pictures to post yet they were dark. I will try to post from the next outing. So tonight I passed 100 percent.

OK, usual Donna cynicism aside, how do you tell? How can you quantify???

No-ones rolled around on the floor laughing at me, pointed and screamed obscenities or even made a scene. Is it because I pass 100% or....

I really believe I look exactly like what I am, a bloke in a dress, but I (apparently) limit my public appearances to a 100% polite community who wouldn't let on they can see the bleeding obvious or are in serious need of emergency optometry.

If Donna has a theme song then it's 'walk like a man', by Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons!!!!

I'd like to say I pass about 70%, but I'm not sure if that is more about adults being adult and polite.

I avoid young people between 12 and 25. I don't know if they are more observant or just lack the manners of those with a few more years on them.

So I probably pass somewhere between 20% and 70%.

25 - 50% (I occasionally get called ma'am when not dressed)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jenniferathome

I'll play Sherry.

For anyone who looks at me eye to eye: 0%

Anyone with whom I converse: 0%

I think I should add that I suspect they think I have transitioned as opposed to being a cross dresser. When I met my hair stylist the first time, she asked if I was full-time. It's my opinion that transition is more known than cross dressing.

---

R u intentuonally leaving these folks out, Jenn?
"-----This includes everyone who sees u; passerbys, glancing at u as u drive by, everyone!"
I'd guess from your avatar you'd pass with at least 50% of these folks?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Donnagirl

OK, usual Donna cynicism aside, how do you tell? How can you quantify???
--------------------------------------------

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Seriously, Donna? U can tell when u pass. As someone who never passes except on Halloween? It goes like this when I'm dealing with SA's and business staff: When their eyes get wide as saucers, when they stutter, when they go way overboard to be nice, when they compliment something you're wearing that u know looks like crap, when they get nervous like a spider's crawling on them? U didn't pass!

When they pratically ignore u, don't give u a second look, look bored or don't stop what they're doing to assist u? U passed!

It's kinda like, if you're not sure whether or not u passed? U just did!

My Mindreader5000 (patent pending) says that everyone is just being civil.

I hope that I don't sound like a bragger but I probably pass 95% of the time. But my wife might add, "And than he woke up." I think after years of doing what I do have paid off with convincing make-up, voice, walk and gesturing as well as a decent wardrobe. It does not hurt that I am only 5'5" and 5'9" in 4' heels. I have a confidence from having done this for so long that helps me pass as well. So if someone does question my gender and watches me in action for a while, I'm pretty sure they would stop guessing, look away and say , "What was I thinking, that surely must be a real woman." I'm going to NYC tomorrow for a long anticipated day in NYC en femme. I can't wait to be navigating the museums restaurants and stores with new friends from this site. I have two delicious dresses to wear and cannot wait to feel the cool Spring breeze on my stocking covered legs as we navigate the streets. Living, if only for a day in the real world, as your complete self, is actually more relaxing and less stressful than you think. It's like taking a tranquilizer that lasts weeks between doses. Also, being no Spring chicken helps since we older women don't get the attention the young ones garner. All in all a great combo to just get out and enjoy life as myself once in a while.

Hi Sherry,

I guess it really depends on how you define "passing". If it is just moving through a crowded mall or a busy street in flow with the foot traffic and people are really giving anyone the time of day when it comes to staring . . . then I would say 75% for me. I tend to blend quite well because of my size and body type and while I am not site to behold on the "beauty scale" . . . I think my facial features are finer than the average male (got that from my father . . . yes believe it or not fine features run down the male line). So as cognitive processors most people will see, smaller frame, long hair, finer features, girl clothes and process girl.

Now . . . if we are talking close up interaction or a crowed space (bus, elevator) then probably 0% will see me as a woman. Although I can soften my voice it is still male, my make-up (i.e., foundation) is far too heavy for a GG and my facial features although fine, are still guy. So no passing muster on close-up inspection.

Hugs

Isha

For the typical CD, I think regular passing is just not going to happen. Of course there are exceptions. But we can still go out in public. We may have to endure stupid comments sometimes but I think even those are less common than they used to be. And yes, occasionally we can be in real danger of physical harm but that does not happen enough to keep me home. CD social events and conventions are a good way to be out in public and just "picking your spots" helps. too.

I like to think that I'm somewhere in the 50-75% range. Of course that may be me deluding myself, but then again I don't really care anymore.
I'm just happy to be able to express myself and if people see me as a woman or not isn't the point anymore. I feel that I am that woman and that is what matters to me. Being confident and being accepted for who I am is the big deal.

Okay DocRobbySherry,

So most the time I go out in female clothing i'm not wearing my wig nor make-up, probably not even shaved. I'm confident and of course I'm not passing, so therefore my ability to pass is not related to my confidence.

When I put on the wig and make-up, I'm LESS confident, and at sufficient distance I get away with it, close-up forget it, no pass. I'm less confident because in this mode i'm trying to pass, at least enough to not be noticed at the gas station! Then i'm probably going to our local CD group, where everyone knows, so there's no passing option, and that's fine. 0-25%?

I am somewhere between 0% and -10%
any illusion that I would pass would have to be
some sort of a psychotic delusion. :thinking:

And for that reason, I almost never go out, Not a big fan of the
" titters and comments; "That was a guy!", "Did u see that?", "What the hell?", "OMG!", etc.

0% most of the time. I only pass barely in highly staged photo shoots. And I'm 99% lazy about using makeup. But, I'm certainly having 100% of a good time when I go out. It just depends on the mood. Manley looking woman, guy with boobs? I'm always aware of my surroundings for safety reasons but, more focused on just feeling good being out and about.

If we are including casual passers-by, then I guess I pass 25-50% of the time. I have had situations where someone starts to talk to me and then they do a quick double-take. Presumably, if they had just passed by, they would have thought I was just an ordinary girl.

For me I would say 75% I pass some of the time BUT I have to dress to blend that means no high heels jeans or slacks, seldom skirts, toned down makeup. etc.
Now if I get real done up heels, etc I'll drop that number down to 25%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by docrobbysherry

R u intentuonally leaving these folks out, Jenn?
"-----This includes everyone who sees u; passerbys, glancing at u as u drive by, everyone!"
I'd guess from your avatar you'd pass with at least 50% of these folks? ...

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Hi Sherry, I suppose that the average person looking at their feet or smart phones would not notice me. From a peripheral vision point of view, I do not have an appearance that would draw attention, I am only 5'7" and about 150 pounds, and I dress for the venue, time, and my generation. I tend to think men are less observant than women so half the population is easier to walk past.

Still, we are more than our faces to the world. Our body shape is very different from that of a woman's (I don't wear any padding other than forms). Observe the shape of the male head-neck-shoulder. That's a significant difference. And then there is our jaw line and of course, the Adam's apple.

Frankly, I do not think any casual cross dresser can hope for more than passing the glance test. I think many here confuse the fact that people do not saying something with passing. I'll restate that I think people may suspect we are transitioned and not cross dressers. But, here's the litmus test: can you spot the cross dresser?

Sherry,

I think this is a question llike having the fox guard the hen house. We are not really in a position to be objective on rating ourselves on passing.

When I go out, I don't notice anyone giving me the obvious double take or the SA with the the big saucer eyes but I know they do. When I go out with my wife, she wll sometimes notice people taking long looks. But then again, yesterday I went to a movie - alone. In the parking lot I walked past a group of older teenage girls and not a one noticed me. In the theater, a 5 year old girl came and sat next to me with her father on the other side of her. Neither one seemed to notice, but it was dimly lit. Did I pass in either of these situations? One might say yes and others might say no. All that matters to me is that I'm treated with respect and as I present.

I've had some CD friends say they think I pass. I've gone into stores & interacted with SA's many times and they never gave me the spider crawling reaction.

OK all that being said, I would rate myself a 67.8% passing.

I would say passing is not an easy thing to judge.

Sometimes folks may be respectful enough not to say anything.

As for myself It would seem to be around 75 % I don't get comments but I do get the occasional knowing look.

I was out today and had around 10 to 12 short conversation and one long one (maybe 25 minutes). Only once was I sure that I had been read.
(a cosmetics sales assistant in a short conversation.) The general public going about there business tend not to notice.

A lot of this depends on self confidence gained from being out and about on a regular basis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pamela7

Okay DocRobbySherry,

So most the time I go out in female clothing i'm not wearing my wig nor make-up, probably not even shaved. I'm confident and of course I'm not passing, so therefore my ability to pass is not related to my confidence.

When I put on the wig and make-up, I'm LESS confident, and at sufficient distance I get away with it, close-up forget it, no pass. I'm less confident because in this mode i'm trying to pass, at least enough to not be noticed at the gas station! Then i'm probably going to our local CD group, where everyone knows, so there's no passing option, and that's fine. 0-25%?

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Thanks for the entertaining and informative post, Pam.

It reminded me of the few times Sherry has gone out amongst the muggles. While there's little chance of her passing, it doesn't seem to matter! I'm completely confident that anyone nearby will be scared too S-less to say even one word or even look directly at me!:eek:

While I have felt a powerful adrenaline rush from such experiences, I realize going out like that is ComiCon, live. And, has little to do with CDing.
Attachment 244084

Based upon my experiences and what others have said, I would put myself in the 95% class.

It is hard to put a percentage. If I go out in a crowded downtown I can go freely and I have not noticed any stares or rude comments. While sitting in a MAC chair in Macy's I have had a fellow customer start talking to me about here daughter. I have gone to regular restaurants and bars and have been treeted just fine. If you look at me from some distance I would say 90%. But, if you talk to me face to face or check me out hard, I would say I have a 1% chance of passing.

for me about 50-75% open my country mouth n goes to 0%

Passing as female 0 to 25% I believe. Hope it is more to the 0% end of the scale.

Just like Jennifer, many folks mistaken me for someone that had transitioned or is going thru the process. It is obvious as many new acquaintances either seem to be walking on egg shells being cautious when talking to me or asking the fulltime/transitioning type of questions. The error in judgement could be chalked up to the media's focus of the transgender community being on the transitioning side of things.

I'd say 50% at a passersby glance but get up close and personal it is 0%. My voice too deep and my lat muscles are too big for a girl so my back and shoulders don't look right. I do have dainty hands and small feet and legs a woman would die for but it's not enough for the up close test. I do think I have the walk and carry myself pretty well, but its not enough to pass

With me it is 100%. It is not hard to pass for a middle aged black woman. I have smaller feet and juicy thighs from my power lifting days and heavy squats that, I contribute to a fat ass with older age. I tend to not want to be bothered out in public. But when, I am treated like a lady, looked at one like it. It catches me off guard at times and, I must always be ready for the Maam, excuse me Miss.
And to say the least, I know, I must seem like a lesbian at times because, I do catch myself looking at a sexy women while out.

I wish I could answer this. I've been told I pass or blend pretty well. I don't really know. I just go out and have fun...

95%, but the 5% includes everyone I converse with. Even they are polite because they can never really be sure of my genetics.

I honestly don't know, because I am not able to tell what other people are thinking and I haven't asked anyone whether I passed or not. All I can say from my point of view is that I haven't noticed much notice, but I can be pretty oblivious. I have no doubt that up close, or when talking, I don't pass at all. It's possible, that like Jennifer says, people might assume I am transitioning/have transitioned (some of the interchanges with salespeople left me with the impression they think I'm either full time or dress often.). I don't know if people notice and just don't say anything or act as if they notice. I'm not trying to be coy or anything, just trying to be honest.
All I can say is I haven't had people pointing fingers or laughing or the like, as far as I have noticed. Did I pass or do people have other things on their mind or are they just being civil or what? Say what you will; I just can't imagine I'm passing (not at nearly 6 feet tall, and with all my other attributes). In any case, it doesn't really matter to me why people are not disrespecting me to my face or within my earshot.

Being seen as full time transitioned is what matters. People then show respect because they sense that you are living as they see you. I believe[from over ten years of social transitioning] that your "look" remaining constant helps out a lot..Same hair,different day...I really don't see where the fuss or fear comes from if you are confident in your right to be yourself,regardless of what sex they gave you at birth.

I get by on first glance 90% of the time. But at 6' 6" in heels, I often get the second glance which brings it down to 50%. That aside, practically everyone I encounter is polite enough not to comment or call me Ma'am even when I use my credit card. Then there are those folks who know me as David and comment on how lovely I look. Go figure.

Dee :fairy1:

If you can walk down the street unmolested then it matters not a jot whether you are passing or not, the effect is the same. However, I was still rather curious so went for a two hour walk this afternoon, burned off a few calories before my GNO tonight, and took special interest in what I saw. Despite the forecast calling for sun, it was overcast and cool (so much for wearing my floppy hat) and with the threat of rain hanging in the air so I wore a 3/4 length floral skirt, stockings, 3" heels and a jacket to cover the rest. A floral scarf rounded it out. Important to note that I was effectively now 6'3" and the ONLY girl wearing a skirt and heels. Just me. So yes, with everyone else wearing black or dark blue and running shoes, I had every reason to stand out.

I walked all the touristy areas as it may be something new to them to see a CD out during the day, just to increase the chances of getting a noticeable reaction. I passed by many, many people. There were a couple of people looking from the sidelines (teens on a bench), a few second-looks. One comment: "That's a big woman!" - mind you, this was from a large group where the tallest was probably only 5'4" :heehee:

By this forum's mathematics, I passed with flying colours. I of course have no idea what all those people were thinking, zilch. I have no idea why people looked in the first place: height, skirt, heels, blonde hair or OMG a tranny! If someone had asked the time, my cover would have been blown instantly for sure. In the end, it didn't and doesn't matter.
So just enjoy yourselves, girls!

Angela, what a great comment! As you say, it really doesn't matter whether you are made or not. I prefer to stick mostly to places where TG people are more accepted, such as gay bars, or restaurants where most of the patrons are openly gay. I just feel safer, and more accepted. In Atlanta, my hometown, I have learned where these places are. As a non-drinker, I can drive to these places, and sit and enjoy my tonic water or diet Coke. I have to be honest, and admit it has been a few years since I could go out. My wife and family just cannot accept my CD needs. I have wanted to bring this issue back up, but I struggle with whether it is worth it to upset my wife and adult daughters again. So I am back in the closet for now, but hoping for understanding. Thanks for the great thread!
CarlyJ

Sherry, for me passing is blending in with my surroundings. I always try to dress age appropriate so my appearance doesn't scream "hey look at me". However there have been occasions and places where I didn't have a snowball's chance in hell, passing. Those times I rolled with the punches and went on with my endeavor. I would estimate my passability somewhere between 50 and 75%.

As far as being a closet dresser, I was there for too many years with two disapproving spouses and a house full of kids. I also sported a full beard for most of my closeted life which would have made it impossible to pass in public (unless I passed as a bearded lady in a circus). Now I'm a widowed empty nester and free to dress and go out as often as I like.

Sherry you tell me. We met in Vegas. I go out all the time. I've been out all weekend I'm sitting in a regular bar down the street of where I am staying right now. I'm the only non straight here and its not a problem. I think it is all about attitude . I haven't seen you with out your mask , but makeup can do wonders . I don't think I pass, but people treat me just like anyone else. Yes I sometimes get the surprise reaction or really? I just take it in stride. I seem to be getting less of it lately.

I'm a TS and I'm living full-time, so I may be biased. When I started my transition last year, I probably passed about 25-50% of the time. There were people who couldn't tell I was trans within my own trans community, although many could read me. In public I could pass under some circumstances, but people are also polite out here so it's hard to tell if I truly passed or people were just being polite. I used the ladies room publicly even before I started HRT (I was presenting close to full time) and my experience was always positive. I would get mis-gendered from time to time. Even if I didn't pass physically, confidence helped me to pass.

Fast forward to 8 months on hormones, the last time I was misgendered (other than over the phone) was more than two months ago. I have hardly been misgendered in 2015. The hormones are helping to feminize my look and to make me feel more comfortable in my own skin, and living daily is helping with my confidence. I probably pass 75-95% of the time these days.

I truly believe that confidence is a HUGE part of passing, and is probably more important than physical passing. Passing physically is nice, but I have heard stories of transwomen who passed really well physically, but they get mis-gendered because they lack confidence or show male behavioral cues, and transwomen and CDers who don't pass well physically who get gendered correctly and treated nicely who had lots of confidence in themselves and were able to let go of male behavioral cues.

Now please, I am TS and need to take hormones. Please do not try hormones unless you're TS and only use under the direction of a doctor.

Interesting and tough to answer well, as I don't get to discuss whether I pass or not with most of the folks who see me.

So.... In a picture I think I can pass very well. Maybe 75%. A glance in real life is similar to a picture, so I suppose I pass well to most people who only glance at me. But that does have to do with my clothing choices as well.

But like Jennifer, face to face, I don't think anyone mistakes me for a girl. And if any do, they sure don't once I speak.

I asked my wife and she is not as sure as I am about me not passing. She thinks I probably pass about 50-75 % of the time and with face to face and speaking maybe 25%. I think she is sweet!

I like to think 51% of the time. I like to fool some of the people some of the time. I have realized I can usually determine if a person is a man or a women from a block away and would imagine that most people can. So we may just be kidding ourselves with our special passing abilities, but if we didn't we would never leave the house. Hugs Jaymee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jean 103

Sherry you tell me. We met in Vegas. I go out all the time. I've been out all weekend I'm sitting in a regular bar down the street of where I am staying right now. I'm the only non straight here and its not a problem. I think it is all about attitude . I haven't seen you with out your mask , but makeup can do wonders . I don't think I pass, but people treat me just like anyone else. Yes I sometimes get the surprise reaction or really? I just take it in stride. I seem to be getting less of it lately.

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Yes, we did, Jean. Altho, for just a few minutes. And, I was nervous about going on stage and wearing shades at 10 PM! As I seem to recall, I mite place u in the 50%+ category?

In my OP I was referring to myself going out while wearing only makeup. Consider yourself lucky u didn't see me that way. Remember our dapper "admirer" that nite, Steve? He kind of took a liking to Sherry. Then, the next day when I went over to say hello without my mask? He couldn't move away fast enuff!:eek:

Hard to say for me, I try not to make too much eye contact because I am still not very confident in going out. When I speak I will be 0% other times I hope I am somewhere between 25% to 50%

That's a tough question to answer because I can't read the minds of the people I encounter. I go out with the assumption thatt I will be read at some point, but seldom observe sings of recognition in others. Mostly, I attribute that to be pole being focused on their own lives. I've seldom heard any remark...and only once I heard a guy asking his GF to confirm his suspicions.

On balance, I think I blend fairly well, despite being somewhat on the tall side and having freakishly large hands. But up close and personal, no one is fooled. My favorite make up stylist said she thought I was a woman until she saw my neck....

So where does that put me on the scale? Maybe 50:50