Society is not to blame

[Michelia]

I'm too tired to reply.

All I can say is I enjoyed the thread. Thanks to all for their viewpoints. There is not question, threads like these in sites like this one read by us all, help. I know I do my share like so many of you are out there doing.

But I would never be doing it if it wasn't for everyone of you contributing posts like these. So keep it going!

And as always, thanks Batty for your words of wisdom.

[sometimes_miss]

Kellycan 27 wrote:

The gays found more acceptance, but they aren't viewed in the same way, because our thing is especially wierd. Nobody ever thought that gays were preverted,or sick or that they didn't molest children..or any of those awful things that they think about us. yeah I am sure.

What planet do you live on? There are still lots of people out there that think homosexuality is an insult to their god, and would like nothing better than to rid 'his world' of the sinners. I think you've spent a little too much time in the little corner of the world where us gender bending folks exist. The real world isn't nearly as tolerant as you might think. As someone else wrote in another thread, sure, 98% of the population might not be bothered with us at all, but that 2% means that there are still 2 million crazy people out there that want us gone in any way possible. That's a lot of people chasing us down an alley with pitchforks, torches and clubs.

and

There are no roving death squads out there, no police searching for us.

O.K., so you live where 'what happens in vegas, stays in vegas. Or maybe you don't follow the news. But there are plenty of people who hate us and would like nothing better than to hit us over the head multiple times with a heavy object, and rejoice when they're done.
Or, maybe you can easily pass (at least your avatar seems to indicate you can) and not wind up like a walking beacon of 'how not to dress as a girl if you are a man'.
Whatever. It's not all in our minds.
Yes, we are part of society, but we aren't a big enough part to set the rules of conduct.

Society as a whole may not be entirely to blame, but much of it is.

[Deborah Jane]

.
Whatever. It's not all in our minds.
Yes, we are part of society, but we aren't a big enough part to set the rules of conduct.

Society as a whole may not be entirely to blame, but much of it is.

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??

Simple....We can't!!

By all means feel free to go out whenever and wherever you like, just make sure you can handle the "crazies"....
Just be prepared to do them what they would do to you

[Sheila]

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??

Simple....We can't!!

By all means feel free to go out whenever and wherever you like, just make sure you can handle the "crazies"....
Just be prepared to do them what they would do to you

and with attitudes like yours it will never ever be changed ..................... thank goodness for the rational, open minded individuals who believe to them all

[Deborah Jane]

thank goodness for the rational, open minded individuals who believe to them all

Yeah, good luck to them, i just hope they know how to defend themselves from the nutters out there!!

[Rachel Morley]

I'm not going to get into this debate ... but I will say this: IMHO (and going on my own personal experiences) when I actually got out there in regular mainstream places fully dressed, it wasn't anywhere nearly a bad as my fears had me to believe. I did of course crap myself when I first experienced getting read, because I thought there would be a confrontation likely to happen, but surprisingly nothing bad has ever happened to me. I've never so much as had a word said to me. I sometimes get some double takes but most of the time people ignore me. The people I have interacted with in public places didn't give me a hard time. They didn't always accept me with a happy cheerful smile either, but it's never been a problem particularly (not yet anyway).

However, having that said all that, there are places in general society I wouldn't want go to when dressed (especially at night). IMHO, and speaking generally, I would say that there more places that tolerate us than don't tolerate us

[Sandra]

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??

By getting out there You did and just maybe those who looked, might just have had their ideas changed by seeing you.

There will always be some in the society we live in who just will not ever accept people who are TGs, but if people just sit behind closed doors then things will never change, and that is sad.

[Fab Karen]

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??

Some black people said that, but enough said,"we're not gonna take it anymore," and now we have a black President.

[Kelli Michelle]

The blame igame is overblown sometimes, but if one MUST pick who is to blame, it certainly is not the CDer. I don't see how anyone could say that. Being part of society doesn't make us responsible (individually) for prejudices against cders, gays, etc, except in the broadest sense possible.

That being said, we have to work to change things just like our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters did. We have to strive to live with dignity, educate those who are ignorant, and strive to raise our children in a non judgemental atmosphere. If we fail to do these things, we risk letting the bulk of society make decisions about TG people by default.

It's sort of an interesting topic, but blaming others isn't going to raise awareness/acceptance to the levels we wish for.

[Sandra]

I for one am not blaming any cder who doesn't get out there in society. It's hard, and it's scary, but I do belive that if more got out and as Kelli has said "educate those who are ignorant, and strive to raise our children in a non judgemental atmosphere" then IMO society could change, but sitting behind the curtains and doing nothing is not going to help.

[Nicki B]

It crosses my mind to wonder how many of those who are so vehement that nothing can ever change, and how unaccepting the world is, actually get out into the real world very often?

So often on this forum views are expressed which seem simply to be aimed to reinforce the decision to stay in a nice, warm, safe closet...

Problem one....Changing societys long held view of us isn't exactly going to be easy, for a start, even now children are brought up to believe that if it's differant, it's wrong/perverse/whatever!!

So, you think it's not even worth trying, then?

The real world isn't nearly as tolerant as you might think.

Middle America is not the whole world.. Or are you perhaps, really talking about yourself?

As someone else wrote in another thread, sure, 98% of the population might not be bothered with us at all, but that 2% means that there are still 2 million crazy people out there that want us gone in any way possible. That's a lot of people chasing us down an alley with pitchforks, torches and clubs.

Do they do that torches and pitchforks thing a lot where you live???


Isn't the population of the US around 300 million? And the world is well up above six billion, now..

But - if the population of trans people is over 2% (I've seen figures bandied about on here from 1-10%), does that mean we outnumber them?

[Deborah Jane]

By getting out there You did and just maybe those who looked, might just have had their ideas changed by seeing you.

Some black people said that, but enough said,"we're not gonna take it anymore," and now we have a black President.

So, you think it's not even worth trying, then?

Damn, my arguments sprung more leaks than a government department

Goes back to pub!!!

[Nicki B]

Goes back to pub!!!

Make sure you're dressed as a girl..

[Lorileah]

We have met the enemy and they are us.

Just a few points. Sheila said sometimes the old ways are better. If that were true we would be using the internet by candlelight. Many of the old mores and codes were designed by a specific group of people (read men) who were trying to protect the status quo. They worked because the people in power had the golden rule, those with the gold make the rules. Things change. I won't say always for the better but they do change. In my mind, the whole crossdressing taboo was when some uppity up was "fooled" by a man who appeared to be female and he had to make the rule to maintain his dignity (however I also think he enjoyed it which made it an even greater sin).

Can we change this? Absolutely. Us old geezers (I know I am old when three layers of Spackle still does not cover the cracks) have seen it go from an illegality or illness to almost (note almost) acceptable. This is because it isn't taught as a bad thing anymore. Younger people now see it as an interesting but benign pastime. It is the older people and the (opiate of the masses) people who still make a big deal over it. To them we will always be perverts and/or clowns. Mainstream media does not help us here. Gender blending is a normal part of many younger peoples' lives. Personally I don't think I am a great warrior in this battle because I try to LOOK like a woman. Our foot soldiers are the "blokes in dresses".

Time will tell on this. Because we as men no longer have to hunt and kill to survive, we can blend more towards the gender neutral. How many of those guys who pulled Wall Street down could field dress a moose like Ms Palin (oops sorry politics slipped out)? Those guys sure like their silk ties and custom tailored suits and little femme loafers. It wotrks the opposite way too. Women are moving towards gender equality. Will it happen in our lifetime? Probably not. But maybe in the future there will be an Eddie Izzard holiday.

[kellycan27]

Laugh at me, hang me, jail me,beat me, make it a crime. this is my life, and this was the way I am supposed to be. If I can't live MY life being who I truly am.. I might as well be dead,because what would be the point? it's taken me 10+ years, pain and sorrow and suffering to get to a point where I am comfortable with myself and my direction in life. Nobody is going to take that from me..noboby!
That's my story and I am sticking to it.

[Hope]

I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE .......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view .................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not alwauys easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

So instead of blaming society, you would blame the TG community?

Honestly, just because we are members of society, it does not follow that we have control over society and can make society bend to fit our whims and our desires. Yes we are a part of society, but only a part.

I could appreciate the sentiment of your idea here (I think) - but could it come with a little less accusation please?

[battybattybats]

Exactly!!!!!

How can we as a minority group change society??

Simple....We can't!!

By all means feel free to go out whenever and wherever you like, just make sure you can handle the "crazies"....
Just be prepared to do them what they would do to you

Aboriginal Australians: couldn't vote, were not counted in the census, were not legally human people but covered under the native animals legislation, were stolen from their parents and taken across the country raised in christian 'mission schools' where they were forbidden to speak their language, follow any cultural and religious practices, were put into 'jobs' where their wages were paid to others 'on thier behalf' and no-one knows where 99% of that went, had to use segregated public ammenities and often none were provided... and because of disease (deliberatly spread to them) and casualties of resistance fighting and downright slaughter (considered as the culling of pests!) they numbered less than 4% of the population!

Yet they managed to change society! They have a lot more to do, but there are Aboriginal lawyers, doctors, politicians.. languages are being preserved as best they can, landrights claimed and far more.

Compared to what they have done in the last 60 years our struggle is easy. It's more than half done by the TSs and Drag Queens and Gays for us. CDs are approximately 10% of the population, far more of the population than Aboriginals with more money, resources, time and other power as well as far less legal repression.

I'm sure we could dramatically change society in only a decade with just 1 in 10 CDs trying. Even less time if more CDs got involved.

And thats my ultra-conservative estimate seeing as there have been a half doxen attempts to get TG equality in places accross the USA, Federal ENDA may be coming up again in just 12-24 months and the USA has signed a UN decleration for the decriminalisation of Gays and TGs and an end to violence against and oppression of them.

So if CDs get involved now, and ones in the closet can still contribute, then massive changes can occur in the next few years making TGs including CDs equally protected under the law as religious faiths and TG issues are getting now and will get far more increased media exposure whether we like it or not! So it's up to us to sway things in our favour or we will suffer for our uninvolvement!

Many gays were against trying to change things (see the documentary The Secret History Of Homosexual Australia) as it would expose them and make it hard to stay closeted and some were quite upset with the loud open out activists who brought attention to the community. The result though was that Gays have gained much progress.

Well TG is going to get more and more media exposure! The hate groups will spread lies, the activists will be trying to educate the masses, and people will start to notice subtle and even unconcious signs of femininity in people more and more as they become more aware of TG existence. Chances are that like Gays many will find the closet shrinking and being harder to hide inside.

[Jess_cd32]

I think my views about society are very well known here, they're total BS!, not only towards cd'ers but so many other good people that don't fit their ideas of normal.
I've always bucked the rules of society since my early teen years, I always had long hair and took the brunt of everything you could imagine being said about it from the 1960's on. I helped brave a path for the future long haired males and feel good about that.
I also fought societies rules hard for 8 years for childrens rights to have a father after divorces, because society said only a mother can give love to and raise them, not a man. I will fight societies rules untill my last breath, that I'm very proud of. CD'ing is the only one thing that I haven't gone out public with, but I will defend that also now as much as everything else.

I'll be leaving this forum in a few days and requesting my account be deleted at that time, I'll explain that in a thread before I do.

No cd'er is to blame for who they are and how they were born, the best thing a cd'er can do for themselves is accept who they are inside and make the best of it within their circumstances. Not all right now can come out without severe consequences for them or their loved ones, that needs to also be understood.
I joined here 6 months ago and met the most decent people ever in my life, and they are not only cd'ers but their spouses as well. This non acceptance within society will go on for some time unfortunatly.

I truly applaude those of you here that are braving a path for the future cd'ers and making change, and I hope what your doing is seen and appreciated by the others that aren't doing so or can't.

As for myself, I'm stopping my cd'ing, at least the clothing aspect, but I'll always remain who I am inside and be proud of that, I won't ever feel ashamed for how I was born. This decision is not because on society, society knows where they can shove it, but its because of the severe damages it has caused my loved ones and I'm putting them first in my life. This has been one of the hardest decisions to ever make for me.
I still may assist in fighting for cd'ers rights etc... , but it will be in male clothing. I'll explain in a final thread in a day or two why I'm doing this, and I truley will miss you all

[JoAnne Wheeler]

We have been taught from childhood that it is wrong to want to dress and

act like a girl. We therefore have to live in secrecy, guilt and shame because

we are told that we are doing something wrong. I applaud those who are

able to express themselves and their femininity and do not care what others

think, BUT not everyone can do that - those of us with spouses (unlike you)

have to consider their feelings - if I had no financial concerns and could live

alone away from my current family and friends, then maybe I could come

out and live like I really want to - BUT, I do not have that luxury.

JoAnne Wheeler

[Sheila]

We have been taught from childhood that it is wrong to want to dress and act like a girl. We therefore have to live in secrecy, guilt and shame because we are told that we are doing something wrong. I applaud those who are able to express themselves and their femininity and do not care what others think, BUT not everyone can do that - those of us with spouses (unlike you)have to consider their feelings - if I had no financial concerns and could live alone away from my current family and friends, then maybe I could come out and live like I really want to - BUT, I do not have that luxury. JoAnne Wheeler

JoAnne firstly I am the SO of A CDER not a CDER................ And do you not think that there are CDERS & TS's who have spouses who have family, friends and financial considerations to take into account and go out there and do it anyway.

When it comes down to it, I did not have to share Debs's status with my kids, my family or my friends, but we chose to to enable our lives to be played as openly as possible. Debs mum, sister and 2 oldest kids know and support her ...... her daughter has had several night in watching Videos & eating pizzas with her ....... How the heck do you think people become accepting of alternate lifestyles? ...... it is by education, and how do you educate people if everybody is hiding in their damned closets ................ like I already said you educate one person and they educate another and they educate another .............. then soon you have a lot of educated people.

Whinging, whining and complaining in a closed community does nothing whatsoever to advance the cause, society is not at fault if you do not get out there and educate and show them they are wrong in their views

[Nicki B]

The hate groups will spread lies

Surely the only reason they feel the need to fight us so hard is they see a growing 'threat'?

[kellycan27]

Kellycan 27 wrote:
What planet do you live on? There are still lots of people out there that think homosexuality is an insult to their god, and would like nothing better than to rid 'his world' of the sinners. I think you've spent a little too much time in the little corner of the world where us gender bending folks exist. The real world isn't nearly as tolerant as you might think. As someone else wrote in another thread, sure, 98% of the population might not be bothered with us at all, but that 2% means that there are still 2 million crazy people out there that want us gone in any way possible. That's a lot of people chasing us down an alley with pitchforks, torches and clubs.

and

O.K., so you live where 'what happens in vegas, stays in vegas. Or maybe you don't follow the news. But there are plenty of people who hate us and would like nothing better than to hit us over the head multiple times with a heavy object, and rejoice when they're done.
Or, maybe you can easily pass (at least your avatar seems to indicate you can) and not wind up like a walking beacon of 'how not to dress as a girl if you are a man'.
Whatever. It's not all in our minds.
Yes, we are part of society, but we aren't a big enough part to set the rules of conduct.

Society as a whole may not be entirely to blame, but much of it is.

I live on planet earth, and out and about on it. i am not hiding in a closet somewhere letting an "occassional" news story or heresay determine how i am going to live my life. You talk as if attacks on cd'ers and TG'ed people are running pampant. Do I watch the news? Yes I watch All of the news. Bad things,done by bad people happen everyday to ALL walks of life. rape,murder,robbery..you name it. Are people afraid to venture out and live their lives? The streets would be pretty empty if that were the case. And even if your 2% of crazies was correct... What would the chances of you personally falling victim? a few billion to one? I do live in Las Vegas, but my job requires that I travel.. New york,Boston,Chicago,Miami just to name a few. No one has ever even expressed the desire to bash my head in much less made an attempt to. I will give you this much.. I have had people laugh, and point, and stare, but that is by no means reason for me to run and hide.
I guess that you didn't get the sarcasim in my comment regarding gays.Yes, there are those who hate them,my point being that even so.. they are more accepted than ever before. Why? because they let themselves be known.They got right out there up close and personal. There are always going to be those who cannot or will not accept one group or idea. Crossdressers and TS people are not as special as you might think. we are just another minority group trying to get by in this world. To hear some talk we are the most hated and persecuted bunch on the planet. Some may think that because it happpens to be them... get over yourself! Now take that other 98% of so called society that you spoke of. Let's just say that of that 98%.....70 percent were of the opinion that they had a problem with crossdressers. How many do you suppose would, other than just voice their opinion, actually take steps to do something about it? Not too many I think, because when it comes right down to it... they probably couldn't care less, having their own problems and lives to lead. I don't believe that I have spent nearly as much time in this... gender bender thing as maybe you have spent running around crying.. the sky is falling!

[battybattybats]

Long post but one everyone should read!!!!

Alright folks. It's about time to bring some facts into the violence-risks discussion.

Because an individuals subjective experiences is useless for gauging risks because they are more likely to end up with runs of chance or to belong to groups with more or less risk.

Lets start with the GLBT adult stats from my own country. http://www.homelessnessinfo.net.au/i...nce&Itemid=173

The survey findings demonstrate that the actuality and threat of heterosexist violence are a part of GLBT Victorians’ day-to-day lives.
Nearly one in seven GLBT respondents report living in fear of heterosexist violence.
Nearly 85 per cent of GLBT respondents have been subject to heterosexist violence or harassment in their lifetimes.
Seven in ten GLBT respondents have been subject to heterosexist violence while alone in the past two years.
Eight in ten GLBT respondents have experienced heterosexist violence as part of a same sex couple or group in the past two years.
One in four GLBT respondents have been subject to physical violence or the threat of physical violence over the last two years.
In eighty-five per cent of cases, violence and harassment were preceded or accompanied by heterosexist language.
Approximately one in twenty GLBT respondents have been subject to sexual assault over the last two years.

Now generally The T in GLBT gets the higher proprtion of stuff.
But the subject is more complex so don't draw conclusions yet.

Next we have TG kids at school in the USA. http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDi...0?diaryId=9964

Link straight to the PDF of the study here: http://www.glsen.org/binary-data/GLS...001/1375-1.pdf

Transgender youth face extremely high levels of victimization in school, even more so than their non-transgender lesbian, gay and bisexual peers. But they are also more likely to speak out about LGBT issues in the classroom, according to Harsh Realities: The Experiences of Transgender Youth in Our Nation's Schools, the first comprehensive study on transgender students, released today by the Gay, Lesbian and Straight Education Network.
Nearly nine out of 10 transgender students experienced verbal harassment at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation and gender expression, more than half experienced physical harassment because of their sexual orientation and gender expression and more than a quarter experienced physical assault because of their sexual orientation and gender expression. These levels of victimization were higher than those faced by the non-transgender lesbian, gay and bisexual students who participated in the 2007 National School Climate Survey, GLSEN's biennial survey of LGBT students.

Biased language:

• 90% of transgender students heard derogatory remarks, such as "dyke" or "faggot," sometimes, often or frequently in school in the past year.
• 90% of transgender students heard negative remarks about someone's gender expression sometimes, often or frequently in school in the past year.
• Less than a fifth of transgender students said that school staff intervened most of the time or always when hearing homophobic remarks (16%) or negative remarks about someone's gender expression (11%).
• School staff also contributed to the harassment. A third of transgender students heard school staff make homophobic remarks (32%), sexist remarks (39%) and negative comments about someone's gender expression (39%) sometimes, often or frequently in the past year.
School Safety and Experiences of Harassment and Assault


• Two-thirds of transgender students felt unsafe in school because of their sexual orientation (69%) and how they expressed their gender (65%).
• Almost all transgender students had been verbally harassed (e.g., called names or threatened) in the past year at school because of their sexual orientation (89%) and gender expression (87%).
• More than half of all transgender students had been physically harassed (e.g., pushed or shoved) in school in the past year because of their sexual orientation (55%) and gender expression (53%).
• More than a quarter of transgender students had been physically assaulted (e.g., punched, kicked or injured with a weapon) in school in the past year because of their sexual orientation (28%) and gender expression (26%).
• Most transgender students (54%) who were victimized in school did not report the events to school authorities. Among those who did report incidents to school personnel, few students (33%) believed that staff addressed the situation effectively.
Impact of Victimization on Educational Outcomes


• Almost half of all transgender students reported skipping a class at least once in the past month (47%) and missing at least one day of school in the past month (46%) because they felt unsafe or uncomfortable.
• Transgender students experiencing high levels of harassment were more likely than other transgender students to miss school for safety reasons (verbal harassment based on sexual orientation: 64% vs. 25%, gender expression: 56% vs. 32%, gender: 68% vs. 38%).
• Transgender students who experienced high levels of harassment had significantly lower GPAs than those who experienced lower levels of harassment (verbal harassment based on sexual orientation: 2.2. vs. 3.0, gender expression: 2.3 vs. 2.8, gender: 2.2 vs. 2.7).

Ah but Here's the kicker.

INTERSECTIONS
You see when you belong to more than one discriminated group the odds of and degree of discrimination are not added together but multiplied!

Resulting in this:
From: http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/01/...ranswomen.html

(remember she is a computer engineer who has worked on military and aerospace projects so don't dismiss her maths too casually!)

Just how many Black American Transwomen ARE there?

About half what there should be. They get murdered in hate crimes too often.
In their report, the Task Force had pronounced the prevalence of GID to be 1:11,900 (MtF) and 1:30,400 (FtM), using numbers that were based on counts of sex reassignments at a Dutch gender clinic during the 1980's

That's the official view of the American Psychological Association in its Report of the Task Force on Gender Identity and Gender Variance. We'll call it 1 in 10,000 though to make sure we over- rather than under-estimate.

So how many Blacks are there in America?
40.2 million
As of July 1, 2006, the estimated population of black residents in the United States, including those of more than one race. They made up 13.4% of the total U.S. population. This figure represents an increase of half a million residents from one year earlier.
That's from the last US Census. About half would be born looking male - call it 20 million. So one could reasonably expect the number of Black American TS women to be about 2,000. Roughly. Maybe a little less. Assuming the usual US birth rate of 10%, that means 200 are born every year. About. Probably a few more. (Births - deaths) is about 500,000 a year for the US Black population at large, so you'd expect an increase of about 50 a year. Roughly. About.

Black Transwomen are being killed in hate crimes at a rate of 30 a year. They comprise the majority of murders of Transpeople. Deaths from all other causes, assuming the normal life expectancy of about 75, would be 1/75 of 2,000 - call it just under 30. Roughly. It's not that simple, you have to look at how many were born when, but it would be less rather than more, so I'll go with that figure.

Something is terribly, terribly wrong here. The rate of lynching of Black American Transwomen is at least comparable to, and probably exceeds, the expected death rate from all other causes put together. Even if my figures are out by a factor of 3, it's still the leading single cause of death for them.

I'd appreciate it if my rough figures could be checked and shown to be wildly wrong. Because they suggest that Black Transwomen in the USA have a greater than 1 in 7 chance of being killed in a hatecrime. And the numbers, instead of increasing by 50 a year, are only increasing by 20 because so very many are killed for being who they are.

Now I agree with Prof Lynn Conway that the APA's figures are distinctly dodgy, and an under-estimate. So I don't think things are quite that bad in reality. Yet that's what the official figures show. So why is not something being done about it?

So what does this tell us?

It tells us that those who are saying the world is a death-trap of violence and those who are saying that it's peachy and a few rude words is all there is to fear are both right!

That your income, social class, geography especially of where you go dressed but also local laws and job protection if your outed but more importantly than anything else the colour of your skin determines your risks of violence!

Facts. Now we have to consider why thats so and what we are gonna do about it!

So then. If your White, middle class+ and live in a state/county/city where you can't be fired if someone outs you for CDing in your own free time away from work then your risks are very low especially if your careful where you go!

For racial minorities especially African Americans, the poor, those who live in areas without such protections and the like then every catagory one of those catagories massively magnifies the risks.

So please folks, cut the 'it's all peachy, everyone come out' nonsense and also cut the 'they all hate us, go out and your gonna die' nonsense too! Both are right, both are wrong.

Yes we need as many folk to come out as possible. But some are more able to than others and some will have greater effect than others so lets consider that.

If your in the safest groups, go on out already! And get active and make an impact, cause you have more power and more protection and are safer than the rest!

If you are in a strong mixture where being out will have a strong impact on the negatively impacted catagories then while being out may include more risks it will also have much more impact! For example despite long cultural history and heritage amongst most African Americans and Australian Aboriginals being TG is considered a 'white thing' because much of the cultural traditions amongst these groups have been stamped out or silenced. Wealthy, powerful, well connected CDs amongst those groups would risk much by coming out but could help their community dramatically if they can make that work, can educate their communities.

Ah but while many of the murder victims are CDs and TSs of colour not all the perpetrators of their murders are! So the problem is that someone who is both racist and transphobic will be more likely to attack someone belonging to both catagories.

That puts an extra moral and ethical obligation on the more powerful more safe white middleclass+ CDs to oppose racism and transphobia! even the closeted folk, even the working class and poor whites have a responibility to vocally oppose racism, transphobia and homophobia in their own communities families friends and all associates! Because if we all don't then we all get stained with the blood, we all get tarnished with the culpability, we all have made a choice that results in the consequence of the mass slaughter of Black Transwomen!

[Sheila]

[B]
Alright folks. It's about time to bring some facts into the violence-risks discussion.

NO it is not Batty ................. this thread is not about violence issues against CDing or any other minority

MY ORIGINAL POST IS THIS

Only society decided that what we are is wrong, we had no choice about it, we were born as we are!!

The above quote from Debs is taken fom this thread [SIZE="4"]Do we need to be forgiven?[/SIZE]
I repeat, once more, WE, ALL OF US, ARE PART OF THE SOCIETY WE CHOOSE TO BLAME FOR OUR WOE .......... and until we/you are strong enough to go forth and be who you are, you have noone else to blame for societies view .................. and before you shoot me there are CDERRS who do go forth on a daily basis dressed as they choose and good on them I applaude they strength, they interact with society as who they are, sure it is not alwauys easy for them, but then it is not easy for a lot of people who do what is required for them to lead the lives that they want to lead.

can we now put this thread back on course and away from a lecture on the

violence-risks discussion.& and the racial minorites with CDing issues

and finally it is sad but people are murdered all the time not just TG folks

and once more I will repeat if you (being tg's ... not for you to take this personally) actually go out and are seen, more and more it will become the accepted norm ....................... we can write to every damned newspaper in the world on a daily basis, but unless we our out interacting with Joe Public nothing will change ...... the vast majority of people are visual, they need to see, touch, feel and even smell things to make their mind up (now has vision of every TGer out there being sniffed ), the majority of peeps are out their living and many of them are too damn busy with their own lives to give a damn what folks they don't know are up to or doing

Kellycan you are leading from the front girl and for me your words carry far more weight than any damned prof or dry musty study, becuase you are living the facts ...

I live on planet earth, and out and about on it. i am not hiding in a closet somewhere letting an "occassional" news story or heresay determine how i am going to live my life. You talk as if attacks on cd'ers and TG'ed people are running pampant. Do I watch the news? Yes I watch All of the news. Bad things,done by bad people happen everyday to ALL walks of life. rape,murder,robbery..you name it. Are people afraid to venture out and live their lives? The streets would be pretty empty if that were the case. And even if your 2% of crazies was correct... What would the chances of you personally falling victim? a few billion to one? I do live in Las Vegas, but my job requires that I travel.. New york,Boston,Chicago,Miami just to name a few. No one has ever even expressed the desire to bash my head in much less made an attempt to. I will give you this much.. I have had people laugh, and point, and stare, but that is by no means reason for me to run and hide.
I guess that you didn't get the sarcasim in my comment regarding gays.Yes, there are those who hate them,my point being that even so.. they are more accepted than ever before. Why? because they let themselves be known.They got right out there up close and personal. There are always going to be those who cannot or will not accept one group or idea. Crossdressers and TS people are not as special as you might think. we are just another minority group trying to get by in this world. [SIZE="4"]To hear some talk we are the most hated and persecuted bunch on the planet. Some may think that because it happpens to be them... get over yourself![/SIZE] Now take that other 98% of so called society that you spoke of. Let's just say that of that 98%.....70 percent were of the opinion that they had a problem with crossdressers. How many do you suppose would, other than just voice their opinion, actually take steps to do something about it? Not too many I think, because when it comes right down to it... they probably couldn't care less, having their own problems and lives to lead. I don't believe that I have spent nearly as much time in this... gender bender thing as maybe you have spent running around crying.. the sky is falling!

to all those out their living their lives, interacting daily, educating daily by example, your voices are the ones I will hear first every time becuase you are living the life you want and having the courage to do so .... to you all I am proud to be associated with you

[battybattybats]

NO it is not Batty ................. this thread is not about violence issues against CDing or any other minority

You can't seperate whether society is to blame or not from the very factors that lead to our concerns. If some of us are afraid of violence and some of us blame society for that violence and some in the context of whether society is to blame or not are arguing whether that risk of violence exists then the facts of that violence are very much needed. Particularly to put to bed the argument about violence.

and finally it is sad but people are murdered all the time not just TG folks

Can you name a group of people who are so dissproportionately murdered, whose individual risk of being murdered is so great that it is the most common cause of death for that group? Not heart disease, not cancer, not multiple organ failure, not emphacema, not stroke... but murder?

Sorry but thats just sticking your head in the sand while African American Transwomen are being slaughtered in veritable genocide! It's like saying that despite the systematic extermination of thousands upon thousands of Jews and Gypsies there were some prisoners of war shot while trying to escape that we should consider the Holocaust unimportant!

The FACTS show that some of us are far less at risk than we imagine and others far more! And as Racism, Classism, Sexism as well as Homophobia and Transphobia are all part of that and those views are held within society and it's many subsets then we must deal with that and oppose the problem at it's source.

and once more I will repeat if you (being tg's ... not for you to take this personally) actually go out and are seen, more and more it will become the accepted norm ....................... we can write to every damned newspaper in the world on a daily basis, but unless we our out interacting with Joe Public nothing will change

I guess you missunderstood a key point. More people can be reached via the net and media than by personal exposure by just one person. And the peer aspects of society is substantially connected to the many media. And being involved on blogs and forums change things as I know because my involvement via letters to politicians and involvement with Australias Human Rights Comission via emails and fora has changed reccomendations for changes of laws!

I have personal experience that actual changes can be made from behind a keyboard. That those who remain closeted can still contribute to change! And being physically disabled I can only get outside so much too. So my words have had more effect and the possibility of far more future effects than my once a week shopping and my once a month trips to the cinema!

...... the vast majority of people are visual, they need to see, touch, feel and even smell things to make their mind up (now has vision of every TGer out there being sniffed ), the majority of peeps are out their living and many of them are too damn busy with their own lives to give a damn what folks they don't know are up to or doing

Strange then that with one letter I informed a politician who holds much power in Australian politics about TG issues. That with one letter I have had an effect on someone who makes profound decisions that effect lives.

Words have power. Yes, meeting and getting to know people face to face is more directly powerful but it is limited in the amount of people you can reach in a day. Both are really important and yes we should get more people out, but for those who can't or don't they can still contribute. And plenty of people who are out can still reach even more people by making their voices heard via media! TV, Radio, Net, Newspapers all influence peoples knowledge, understanding, views, perceptions and preconceptions!

To hear some talk we are the most hated and persecuted bunch on the planet. Some may think that because it happpens to be them... get over yourself!

Kellycan you are leading from the front girl and for me your words carry far more weight than any damned prof or dry musty study, becuase you are living the facts ...

I repeat: Can you name a group of people who are so dissproportionately murdered, whose individual risk of being murdered is so great that it is the most common cause of death for that group? Not heart disease, not cancer, not multiple organ failure, not emphacema, not stroke... but murder?

Because African American Transwomen by the official estimates of their population are! I think that does
make them the most persecuted people on the planet!

And if the stats are a touble for you look up the pictures of the people from the Transgender Day Of Rememberance lists (mostly Black and Hispanic!) and look at their faces! Faces like Latiesha's http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/...latiesha-green who was shot.

Drop the 'dry musty study' as those stats are peoples blood. Like Angia Zapata beaten to death with a Fire Extinguisher! http://www.bilerico.com/2008/08/AngieZapata.jpg She was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher.. but when she moaned and wasn't dead he went back and hit her some more untill she was!

Oh and that Prof? That's someone who does go out every ay interacting with people every day! and the one she quotes Lynn Conway? Not only is she also out daily but the computer your using is built with technology she invented! http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/

to all those out their living their lives, interacting daily, educating daily by example, your voices are the ones I will hear first every time becuase you are living the life you want and having the courage to do so .... to you all I am proud to be associated with you

And if they are Black or Brown skinned and American and poor then many will DIE! And many of those who could be on here to tell you how it is can't Cause they are DEAD! That's my point!

How much does it take to open your eyes to TRUTH?

If your white and out you are probably going to just cop a little flack depending on where you live, your income etc.

So if we face the real facts most of us on this forum would realise it's safer to go out than we realise! And that we owe those who suffer the great and serious danger our help!

I notice no-one has had the guts to answer the WHERE DID THE CLOSET COME FROM question!

Thats because people in society changed society to be anti-TG!

And if it's going to change back, and here we come close to some agreement, we are going to have to be the ones to do it!

But pretending that non-white transwomen are not being slaughtered and just getting our most courageous to dress plainly and go to the mall and smile and be friendly to the shop assistant at the lingerie store is not remotely enough! We do need to do FAR more than just that!