Rights?

[RWillow]

Today my wife said she wanted to talk to me about my CD'ing. This was a total shock because she has refused to talk about it since I told her about it 5 weeks ago.

The following is the short version:

Wife: "What are you trying to prove by wearing a dress?"
Me: "I'm not sure I understand the question. I'm not tyring to prove anything." (Before I could say anything else.)
Wife: "You don't have the right to wear woman's clothing. You have to earn the right and as a man you can never do hat."
Me: "What do you mean I have to earn the right?"
Wife: "Just what I said, you have to pay your dues, you have to earn that right."
Venom was dripping from every word she said, she was very angry and I had no idea why. I have not dressed in front of her, I have not shown her any pictures, my clothes are out of sight and locked up, I have no idea what triggered the outburst.

She pushed the right button with me, I went over the edge, my reply was: "Get those d**n pants off right now and take off that Harley t-shirt. You DON'T have the right to wear any men's clothes. You didn't pay your dues and you never could."

I know I was a little loud and maybe a little harsh but I didn't think her comment was called for. I might be sleeping out in the garage for the rest of my life.

Renyta

[Lorileah]

Renyta

Sorry you had that confrontation. But as we all know, no one understands this. Not even us.

As for earning the right, I don't get that. I don't recall the invoice coming to me. I understand your reply and we all have that same feeling. I still have not found the stone tablets that describe what is women's wear and what is men's. The only possible thing I can even think my be exclusively female is a bra but I know lots of guys who could benefit from one.

I believe it comes down to fear. We cannot even know why anyone reacts in the manner they do. We may never know what set this off in her. I have read your previous posts and I think that you can be and usually are a fairly manly individual. My suspect is that you care for her in a manly way but she could benefit from your caring and nurturing side also. We tend to be that way. For some reason when we become soft and caring (which is in the top ten hit parade of what women want in a man) they start to worry. It is all nurture in this case. It is what she was told. I just hope this didn't come from watching Springer this afternoon.

Take some time, try and get her to explain why she thinks it is an honor to wear a dress (I think a majority of GG's here will disagree because they can't understand why we would want to). Something happened here. If you can find out what it was you can maybe allay her fears.

I would hate to see what is required for us to "earn" the right to wear a dress. Trial by fire? Hormonal fluctuations (some of us have those so maybe we are earning that). I hope it is not anything more severe than that where we would need to lose something or someone to gain that right.

Good luck and you have my hope and caring that this will resolve.

[Marilynn]

I suspect she wasn't trying to lay out a logical argument that would hold up in court. She was pissed, and she let you know. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.

[Holly]

...Something happened here. If you can find out what it was you can maybe allay her fears...

I believe Lorileah is right on. Something other than you in a dress triggered her outburst. See if she will sit down with you and talk this out. Perhaps explaining that you are not trying to join some kind of club but that you searching for some answers as to what your life is all about would help get the conversation started. Please let us know how it goes.

[curse within]

Just look her in the eyes and tell her how much you love her....Tell her you wish you had the answers and would give them to her in a heartbeat..Let her know you are doing the best you can and have been trying to educate yourself ..Most of all tell her dress or no dress you are the same guy that fell in love with her as she is the same gal that fell in love with you.. It's nothing you can't work through..

[linnea]

It's her feelings that you've got to consider in this. The logic of it--well, there is no logic to it. However, there's a lot to what she's feeling and I think that that's what you've got to talk with her about.
She's probably frightened because she does not want to lose "her man"; she's probably confused and alarmed at her confusion because her sense of stability has been shaken. She's probably worried that you will take this "too far" (whatever "too far" means to her).
I think that you've got to talk to her about all of those and other feelings, especially her fears.
Frankly, I don't think that this means backing down or giving up, and as far as "rights" go, no one has to "earn" gender roles (we construct them and they are available for everyone); sex characteristics are either given at conception chromosomally or attained in a variety of ways (surgery, hormones, or related procedures).

[Jessica Who]

I'm sorry that you had to go through that, but certainly yelling back didn't help. Try to approach the situation with her feelings always in mind. It may sound tough, but you have to put your emotions on the backburner at times in consideration of your wife. I wish you the best.

[Miranda09]

Well Renyta, I can understand why you yelled back at her as you felt like you were being attacked. But, consider for a moment her point of view as well. It's not a good idea to draw a line. As others have said here, take a deep breath, appologize for the outburst and ask her (don't demand) to discuss the issue and reassure that your love for her isnt conditional upon your CDing.

[battybattybats]

Some GGs I know have made comments about how they view being a woman a burden, something one suffers, that a TS earns the right to be a woman by struggling and suffring but a non-op TS shouldn't be considered a woman because they haven't earned it.

Whether referring to the sexism they suffer through life or perhaps it's about their views on the suffering of menstruation and childbirth I don't know.

It's especially a shame that you came under attack and yet you are expected to apologise to her.

That you were attacked and yet you should be the one to supplicate and consider her feellings as more valid and more important than your own.

Worst of all, thats probably exactly what will be needed to be done to resolve the situation because of the priviliged position of cisgender with all the power and sympathy given to it and the transphobia she is clearly expressing against the powerless and underprivileged transgender.

Till she understands her own transphobia you cannot argue effectively with her nor reason effectively with her. The assumption will be that you are the villain and she the victim even when the opposite is 100% true.

As described she is utterly in the wrong and your standing up for yourself totally justified.

But it won't neccessarily help her see the error of her views nor help her consider your feellings as being at least as equal as hers let alone more valid.

[kellycan27]

I suspect she wasn't trying to lay out a logical argument that would hold up in court. She was pissed, and she let you know. What you do with that knowledge is up to you.

I agree with Marilynn

[KandisTX]

While I would have probably reacted just as you did, I would strongly urge caution. You might try the following;

Put your arms around her and hold her. Look into her eyes, and say the following: "I don't have the answers you are looking for, I would like to have them as much as you, maybe we can find them together".

Kandis

[KimberlyJo]

Personally, I believe we are earning the rights to wear women's clothes and act more feminine every day. We put on our clothes and our makeup and we struggle with the reasons for it alone and here on the forum and out in public. We are all desperately seeking our own answers and acceptance, not only from other people but from ourselves as well. Trying to come to grips with something that has been denied us from the beginning of time, our softer side.

Men aren't allowed to be sensitive, to care about feelings. We needle it out of each other throughout our childhood and adolescence and even throughout our adulthood. We police our own and make sure that we're all good and tough and devoid of sensitivity. That's changing, slowly but we haven't really made many great strides as a whole.

There was a time when a woman in pants was scandalous, when a strong and assertive woman was unacceptable. But times change and society (begrudgingly) changes with it, we just have to keep forging ahead. She's right in a way, we haven't "earned" it yet but we will!!

[Sheila]

Just look her in the eyes and tell her how much you love her....Tell her you wish you had the answers and would give them to her in a heartbeat..Let her know you are doing the best you can and have been trying to educate yourself ..Most of all tell her dress or no dress you are the same guy that fell in love with her as she is the same gal that fell in love with you.. It's nothing you can't work through..

While I would have probably reacted just as you did, I would strongly urge caution. You might try the following;

Put your arms around her and hold her. Look into her eyes, and say the following: "I don't have the answers you are looking for, I would like to have them as much as you, maybe we can find them together".

Kandis

Some wise words there hun, very very wise fron those two ladies.

Sounds like your wife is cimfused, hurt and angry right now .......... 5 weeks is a relarively short time in the schems of things .............. write the site adrees down and point out to her we have a GG section in here where she can come and talk to us ladies most of whom have been where she id now, let her know we do not browbeat into acceptance, we share & help ............ if it helps print some of the loved ones section things of and give her the chance to read them on her own.

Good luck

Sheila

[Shikyo]

I don't think yelling was a good idea, but your answer was totally logical according to what she said. If you don't have the right to wear woman's cloths, then she does not have the right to wear man's cloths. What works one way works the other around as well. You don't need the right to wear anything, if that would be the case wouldn't we have to carry around a license for each individual piece of clothing we are using, so that we can prove in case of something happens that we had the right to wear that particular piece of clothing. I've yet to see a license like that, what about you?

Fighting back in a situation like that is not a good thing. It can complicated the matter a lot, but instead you should try to make her understand that you don't understand your urge that well neither. You are trying to find out why you do it, and if she wants he can always help you in the process.

Despite her behavior, you really should try to stay calm and understanding about it. A fight will never bring you anywhere at the most it will bring you farther a way from a nice understanding wife. You need to work together and that will not be possible unless one of you will try to get the other one to cooperate. All in all, you will have to have lots of patient with your wife, but don't let her pressure you. She has no right to deny one part of your life, just be careful around her for now. Just aim to clear this mess up, it can be hard but I can assure you it is going to be worth the trouble.

[Carin]

The following is the short version:...
Venom was dripping from every word she said, she was very angry and I had no idea why. ...
I have no idea what triggered the outburst.

She pushed the right button with me,

First off, can I give you a Renyta.

Secondly, this is more likely to be about her than about you. You are just the vehicle (another ). I think she was not talking about you. She was talking about herself. She was angry, and she wanted you to know that. Why? Obviously I don't know, but the whole cross-dressing thing is likely overwhelming and irrational in her mind and it takes a LOT of all of the emotions to deal with that. Anger is one of them. It's OK to be angry some of the time. How we as humans deal with that anger is another matter.

It is quite challenging to empathise with someones anger, when it is directed at you, but if you can detach from that for a little while, you can help her get through it. There is a way to respond when someone is angry. Empathise. Tell her (in short sentences) that you understand that she is angry. In that moment she is not looking for any rationalizations as to why you are a cross-dresser. She just wants you to know how she feels.


Hang in there.

[Sandra]

Ask her to sit and down and talk to you about all of this. Try to explain how all this affects you.

5 weeks is not long at all and she's probably thinking all sorts of this and most likely thinks she's on her own with all of it.

I'll second what Sheila said about this site and the FAB forum, it may help your SO to know that she's not alone and support is out there for her.

[TJ Tresa]

The only reason I could think of, "for you not having the right to wear women's clothes" would be the fact that none of use CDers have ever had a period. Or it could be that she views the wearring of dresses as a way of tempting a man into her feminine web, so to speak, and she might be afraid that you are wanting to trap a man for yourself.
I am sorry the two of you had such a blowup and I hope you work things out, Goood Luck.

[cindym5_04]

I think the ritual of "earning the right" somehow involves sacrificial virgins and drinking dragon's blood... doesn't it? **puzzled look**

I'm sorry you had to have that conversation with her. I'm now going to have to tell my wife about that statement. She'll probably choke on her soda. I don't think either of us has heard anything like that one before. Your wife does get points for originality at least. Good luck.

[Shikyo]

The only reason I could think of, "for you not having the right to wear women's clothes" would be the fact that none of use CDers have ever had a period. Or it could be that she views the wearring of dresses as a way of tempting a man into her feminine web, so to speak, and she might be afraid that you are wanting to trap a man for yourself.
I am sorry the two of you had such a blowup and I hope you work things out, Goood Luck.

Not having a period would be rather stupid reason, as for males it not even possible. Second, that does not explain why little girls would have the right to wear feminine cloths before they get their first periods. Both the guys and the girls have their own issues and problems throughout their life. And if the periods would be the reason for the girls to have the right to wear girl's clothes than for girls would have to have had and erection with the male ejaculation(just an example, I don't care what clothes people wear as long as they like the clothes themselves) to have the right to wear guy's cloths, which also is not possible.

The second option you mention could be possible, but that would make the male in the dress most likely a homosexual, which would be another story together. Hiding ones sexuality inside a relationship is not a good thing. In this case one would just have to make it clear that one is not gay of any kind. Nothing would change in the relationship between them, which is hard to explain but it has to be done.

[Kate Simmons]

Personally, I feel that many of us have earned those "rights" in spades. Whether we choose to exercise those rights is another story because when all is said and done, it's not about looks or clothing at all but about people and feelings.

[Karren H]

Wow!! That's the first time I've heard that one.. "The right" and "Pay your dues"? Sounds like she's been obsessing over this big time and is. grasping for straws as to why your not allowed to dress!

And I agree.. When ever I yell back at my wife, which isn't very often, ok its almost never, I've regreted it big time because it just excalated the situation instead of defusing it..

[robyn1114]

WOW that was pretty harsh, I hope things have calmed down a little.

[boardpuppy]

There were a lot of valid points given by different girls. The ones that have efffected me though:
-yelling back is not logical, whether your logic is correct or not
-Holding your SO and talking out the frustration
-being able to talk in a level voice
-don;t become defensive during this discussion
There are more but these are the biggies (for me), a lot more.

She is angery and has used your DCing as the vechile to latch onto to get your attention. Find out what triggered this outburst (on her part) and talk to her. Hopefully she will have commed down enough that both of you will make sense (to each other) without starting another fight.

Hugs,
Alice

[JulieC]

Wife: "What are you trying to prove by wearing a dress?"
Me: "I'm not sure I understand the question. I'm not tyring to prove anything." (Before I could say anything else.)
Wife: "You don't have the right to wear woman's clothing. You have to earn the right and as a man you can never do hat."
Me: "What do you mean I have to earn the right?"
Wife: "Just what I said, you have to pay your dues, you have to earn that right."
Venom was dripping from every word she said, she was very angry and I had no idea why. I have not dressed in front of her, I have not shown her any pictures, my clothes are out of sight and locked up, I have no idea what triggered the outburst.

She pushed the right button with me, I went over the edge, my reply was: "Get those d**n pants off right now and take off that Harley t-shirt. You DON'T have the right to wear any men's clothes. You didn't pay your dues and you never could."

Renyta, your response is exactly in line with how I feel towards people who feel men shouldn't wear skirts/dresses because they are only for women. Someone here has a signature to that effect, something like "I'll stop wearing skirts just as soon as she stops wearing pants". In the Pentacostal faith, women are forbidden from wearing pants. It is considered crossdressing, and a mortal sin, even if the pants are designed specifically for women.

These sorts of notions about certain clothes only belonging to certain genders are insanely prejudicial and illogical. I recall one poster on a forum I used to be on getting incredibly angry because I was wearing *HER* clothes. Insane. I didn't raid her drawers. I buy all my own clothes, and they belong to me. I earned the right to wear them when I bought them.

There's a ton of cultures and societies in the world today where men where what people in most western cultures would view as women's clothes.

----

All that said, there's a serious underlying issue of anger here that needs to be addressed, as other posters have commented on.

I think this post is particularly spot on ...

Just look her in the eyes and tell her how much you love her....Tell her you wish you had the answers and would give them to her in a heartbeat..Let her know you are doing the best you can and have been trying to educate yourself ..Most of all tell her dress or no dress you are the same guy that fell in love with her as she is the same gal that fell in love with you.. It's nothing you can't work through..

...except I might reword it as "Dress or no dress, I'm the same guy you fell in love with. You benefit directly from all of me, not just the uber masculine parts"

I think I'd re-approach her, and compliment her for trying to discuss it with you. I would apologize for your response, even though it was spot on and maybe deserved. Regardless, it caused harm, and that's worth apologizing for.

Logic <> emotions. They don't talk to each other and have nothing in common. You can't logic your way through this with her. You're going to have to navigate these waters with emotion.

You have a right to be who you are, but demanding and exercising that right is going to stir the feathers. I would be passive in defending my rights; she can complain all she wants, but I would still express my femininity, just not in front of her.

The CDing is out in the open. You don't have to push it in her face to keep it there. What you can and should so is make sure there's no more secrecy in the form of attempting to hide things, or prevent her discovering things, or anything like that. I think it should be more like your CDing is an open book, and she can read it when she wants to, or ignore it at her discretion, but it's always there.

Responding negatively and harshly too her (even if brilliantly logical) closes the book and pushes her away. She's reaching out to you, even in anger, trying to make bridges. Don't burn them. She is being transphobic. But, you can't fix that by verbally stabbing her.

Not having a period would be rather stupid reason, as for males it not even possible.

Yep, because if we followed that logical path then after a woman hits menopause or has a hysterectomy, she would logically then lose the right to wear dresses and skirts. Also, if a woman as a double mastectomy for any reason she'd lose the right to wear bras.

See, this whole thing doesn't work logically. There's raw emotions at work here, and it can be maddeningly frustrating to work with them towards constructive ends. It will take many, many heartfelt talks.

[Lorileah]

If wearing a skirt is all it takes to trap a man, then many women have been fishing with the wrong bait. I understand that in many minds dressing as we do is our attempt to find a boyfriend (husband, lover, whatever) but honestly we know that was not the initial impetus, we wanted females (usually). So I guess a more logical fear would be that we dress to attract new females. Wrong bait again as has been dredged up a million times on these posts.

While true in some cases here, we like to use what we consider sex appeal (who better to gauge that than a randy male?) when we dress. It's been discussed and at least in my case I like the attention (maybe lack of such growing up?....naw always have been the attention *****.)


Still this sudden outburst on Reynta seems to be misplaced. As they say there is more to this story. Something set it off. Did she have lunch with a friend who knew someone who knew someone who lived next door to someone whose husband "turned gay" and started dressing? (Ok you all know that was facetious). But we have heard that bit of folklore before. Did she watch Springer and see the over the top in your face crossdresser who had to embarrass her SO on national TV?

Anyone who as read my former posts knows I push towards peace and understanding. Every relationships has it's speed bumps. How we handle those says a lot about our love for each other. Hard to convince our partners sometimes that the person they fell in love with is still the person in a different wrapping. It is hard for us to understand how they want a sensitive caring individual who helps around the house and with the kids but cannot accept that we like the "feminine" trappings of life. I never had a problem with my wife getting dirty helping replace a fence or shoveling snow, or holding a wrench while I fixed a pipe. She didn't seem to have a problem with me preparing a gourmet meal, helping with household work, or picking outfits for her. Guess that is why she never demanded that I earn a right. In my case, the outside trappings didn't change the inside person. Can't speak for her though.

Once again, my thoughts and hopes are with Reynta and all my "sisters" who are having that struggle. I was blessed not to.