Rights?

[docrobbysherry]

From HER point of view, anyway!

I lost many arguments with my ex, because I OFTEN couldn't even understand her SIDE of what we arguing about!

[Patricia1]

Let's see if I have this right. You've been in limbo for about 5 weeks waiting for some sign of recognition, conciliation, discussion, anything approaching an effort to sort this out and instead you're ambushed with a volley of venom and invective. Self-defense is a primal reaction and though you may be faulted for your quintessentially male response, it is understandable. The irony here is that if any one on our side of the ledger is more sympathetic to the female plight in this life, it is the transgendered male (including the entire spectrum). Your problem, of course, is that you have strayed into no man's land as far as those without the understanding, sympathy and empathy are concerned. Your task is to bring your wife into as much of an understanding of your journey as she needs so that she can see that you too have suffered through a lifetime of travail. We're not talking rights here, we're talking simple human understanding. Your love for each other should transcend moments of discord, disharmony and misunderstanding. This is very shifty terrain and requires balance and sense. Once the fires have quieted down, perhaps reason together with love will mend the breach. You still belong to each, no matter what else happens. Righteousness does not allow room for opposites. You're not opposites, you're one. Good luck.

[SouthernBelle.GG]

Today my wife said she wanted to talk to me about my CD'ing. This was a total shock because she has refused to talk about it since I told her about it 5 weeks ago.

That tells me that she's still in the hurt and confused stage of this. She's trying to say and think of anything...no matter how illogical or silly it might sound...to come back at you with. Subconsciously she might want you to be as hurt by her words as your coming out to her has hurt her.

My advice is not to stoke the anger, hurt, and confusion with further illogical talk/arguing. Find a way to talk calmly. Let her know that you understand that she's hurt and confused, but that you need to help her try to understand what this is about. And the only way to do that is to sit and talk and listen. Not one way, but both ways.

Good luck!

[Sally2005]

I think she is wrong, but I it might be related to her feeling abused her whole life over being a woman: Maybe she was not included in the kids games because she was a girl, her hair was pulled by the bully at school, she was forced to keep her hair clean, she was expected to clean the house and cook etc etc... So she overcame those issues or something similar and settled in to her role which she feels is maybe limiting for her based on her gender and she feels like you have to experience these things to truely be a woman. And she thinks you can never experience what she did and as a result can not be the same. I think it has to do with competition also...she doesn't want you to compete with her ego. Compare it to the stereotypical famous french artist who hears from a junior painter that they can paint as well...the famous aritist would be insulted by the very notion that anyone could reach their level of expertise.

So, I'd maybe appologize to her for the outburst and ask her what it takes someone to earn being a female and tell her you know you will never be as much female as she, but you want to understand why it upsets her.

[JennaC]

Wow. There's a lot of good advice here. I'll give you my two cents worth too Pan, having been through the telling my SO and all that myself not so long ago. First of all.... Don't panic you're not alone and you have lot's of support here.

It's not a question of who's right or wrong now. You need to save your relationship now. If you told her 5 weeks ago and haven't discussed it since, she was left alone to draw her own conclusions with no knowledge of the reason (in her mind) 'why you're doing this to her' or anything like that. At some point she probably even questioned if it was her own fault...something she did or didn't do. Communication, knowlege, honesty and trust are key in any relationship. People fear what the don't understand, hence the whole genderphobia hate crime thing.

At the time I did a lot of reseach about it and gave my SO links to sites where she could go herself and learn about it (like www.ren.org). We went to a gender therapist together and she got to talk with her alone...this went a LONG way to allieviating her fears. I even bought a book for her with stories by Wives and SO's about when they found out, etc... can't remember the name of it now. I think it was "Head over Heels". But I did take a stand because it's a part of who I am and I need this to be happy so we comprimised.

But first and foremeost ... She needs to know that you love her and you're not going to run off and get a sex change. That you didn't ask to be this way and you're trying to understand it all yourself and allieviate some of her fears. There are many different reasons people CD... Arm yourself with some knowledge and some resources before you sit down and discuss, and keep a cool head. Don't let this drag out, you need to take care of this soon.

My thoughts and hopes are with you

[Joanne f]

Are you sure that you are not misunderstanding the meaning of what your wife said " you have to earn the right to wear women`s clothes ", it could be some sort of game or rights you will have to do to get that right .

[Paige.]

I don't know the answer either but your admission has been eating on her for 5 weeks and her kettle is beginning to boil. She didn't talk to you during the interlude but she sure talked to herself.

I think what she said is not what she is talking about.

Wife: "What are you trying to prove by wearing a dress?"

She isn't talking about wearing a dress. I think she is angry that you even want to look feminine because that erodes her concept of a healthy male/female relationship. She is asking what you are trying to prove by acting and looking like a woman. She didn't marry a woman and she may be afraid of losing her man. You are important to her as a man.

Wife: "You don't have the right to wear woman's clothing. You have to earn the right and as a man you can never do hat."

To her this means you don't have the right to be a woman because you were born the wrong gender, and as a man you never will be the right gender. Therfore you don't have the right to wear women's clothes. I know, I know, we wear slacks and jeans too but that isn't part of her argument.

Wife: "Just what I said, you have to pay your dues, you have to earn that right."

I'm not sure what she may have meant here. Does she mean that women have had to struggle to be recognized as a viable part of society and those rights (sufferage, independence, single motherhood, etc.) were hard to come by? Perhaps she feels you are abusing her by asking her to accept something that is out of the norm.

It isn't the litteral words you should pay attention to but an interpretation of the emotions and the meaning behind them from her pespective.

I wish you well Renyta.

[Kathi Lake]

Thanks for your perspective Paige. It's on-target, as always.

Kathi

[cindym5_04]

I think Paige offers some insight. But, Paige, are you sure it doesn't just involve some kind of hazing ritual?

[Kelli Michelle]

One is allowed to stand up for themselves. Your outburst was very understandable. When someone attacks you, you are entitled to protect yourself.

Now you have to address whatever is going on in her mind. I would tell her that you didn't appreciate being attacked like that, was hurt, and that you responded like anyone would in a similar situation. However, you realize that there is a an underlying issue, and you want to resolve that as well as can be done. I would talk about respect for her opinions (of course one doesn't have to agree with them), love, etc. Than I would ask for a loving, adult conversation about her issues or whatever she wants to talk about. I believe at this point you need to focus on her, rather than your cding issues, per se, though obviously they may come up.

You need to at least try to remove the the anger she has, if possible. I would bet, though, it will take some time. Rome wasn't built in a day (god i hate that cliche---lol).

Best of luck to you both.

[MissConstrued]

She pushed the right button with me, I went over the edge, my reply was: "Get those d**n pants off right now and take off that Harley t-shirt. You DON'T have the right to wear any men's clothes. You didn't pay your dues and you never could."

Good answer. I don't agree with the weiners who think you should be groveling on the floor in front of your wife. Sure, she's upset, and she's got a right to be. But that doesn't mean you have to lay down and take abuse over it. Mature adults should be able to have a conversation without the venom. But like begets like.

[Hali]

I think she is wrong, but I it might be related to her feeling abused her whole life over being a woman: Maybe she was not included in the kids games because she was a girl, her hair was pulled by the bully at school, she was forced to keep her hair clean, she was expected to clean the house and cook etc etc... So she overcame those issues or something similar and settled in to her role which she feels is maybe limiting for her based on her gender and she feels like you have to experience these things to truely be a woman. And she thinks you can never experience what she did and as a result can not be the same. I think it has to do with competition also...she doesn't want you to compete with her ego. Compare it to the stereotypical famous french artist who hears from a junior painter that they can paint as well...the famous aritist would be insulted by the very notion that anyone could reach their level of expertise.

So, I'd maybe appologize to her for the outburst and ask her what it takes someone to earn being a female and tell her you know you will never be as much female as she, but you want to understand why it upsets her.

I think there might be some deep emotions involved in this situation and might be seen in a psychological point of view, though am not an expert in psychology but I guess I can voice my opinion. After accepting my femme side I have come to learn a lot about how women think which hither to the knowledge eluded me. I use to think women are unreasonable and nag alot and some of the way they think is weird, well, I know better.

Now my opinion:

I don’t know what kind of stress/abuse and sacrifice some women go through from the society before they grow older and realise femininity is a “weapon” to be used to court/get men “who happen to be superior to women” to do what women want, to get men as partners may be they were taught to be submissive and look femme/sexy/beautiful and they can achieve that by wearing the femme cloths and looking pretty and submissive which they might not want to do but had to do and it has worked for her for years and now her husband a “man” is trying to wear those same femme cloths to attract men or for what ever reason. While he has been the “man” and enjoyed all the "benefits" of being a man all his life its almost incomprehensible for her at those high passion moments she ended up saying all those things which luckily sum up all the emotions she felt.

Sorry My GG sisters if my thoughts offend you in any way.

[Persephone]

I think Paige offers some insight. But, Paige, are you sure it doesn't just involve some kind of hazing ritual?

Actually, it does! I think most women would agree that genetic girls go through a 5 year hazing ritual from about age 11 to about age 16.

[Nicki B]

One is allowed to stand up for themselves. Your outburst was very understandable. When someone attacks you, you are entitled to protect yourself.

But it may not be very wise, if it simply escalates the confrontation.. IME when attacked, it's best to stand back and ask yourself why the other person is behaving the way they are - it's perfectly possible you are not the reason, but you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Whatever, they picked the battleground, so you're not going to win..

But like begets like.

Exactly. It may be instinctive - but it's not very clever.

[Kelli Michelle]

But it may not be very wise, if it simply escalates the confrontation.. IME when attacked, it's best to stand back and ask yourself why the other person is behaving the way they are - it's perfectly possible you are not the reason, but you happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Whatever, they picked the battleground, so you're not going to win..



Exactly. It may be instinctive - but it's not very clever.

It may indeed escalate the argument, that's for sure. However, an instant, instinctive retort has nothing to do with being clever or not. His response was a spur of the moment emotional outburst, responding to a threat.

What about her responsibilities? Does she have a free pass here? I know, I know, assessing blame is sorta pointless, and snapping back at her is not a good plan, if you do intend to try and work it out. But, every now and then sh@t happens. You deal with it, then continue to work through it.

[RWillow]

I was able to find a time of peace here today and talked to my wife in a somewhat normal manner, I may have found the reason for her outburst. I followed the advice of many here on the forum and found a therapist who I have been seeing for several weeks, she has been a huge help in my quest to find some peace of mind. None of my dealings with the therapis have been hidden from my wife, I have been very open about everything.

My wife took a call from the therapist's office the other day about a change in my appointment time, it seems that call was what triggered my wife's outburst. She told me today that it looked as though I finally found someone who would "Put a stamp of approval on your perversion."

I asked two questions in a very calm manner and was shot down on both. The first: "Would you come with me and talk to the therapisst?"
The answer I got was "No, I'm not the crazy one here, you are."
The second: "Would you go on the forum and look at some of the posts?"
I did go into some detail as to where she should look and if she decided to post a question how to go about it. I received the same answer, "No way.".

I did say I was sorry for my remarks yesterday and also told her I was sorry for not telling her that I was a crossdresser many years ago. She told me that her entire life was one big lie and I am to blame, I have ruined her life. She is right and I am so very sorry, but I did not want to end up dying from another heart attack and have her find my stash, I felt that would be a terrible way to find out. I did not get a comment to anything I said which is her way of dealing with something she doesn't like.

I guess I won't hear anything until the next event triggers an outburst.

If anyone wants to find me, my new address is: Make a right turn at the Model A, go to the end of the tow truck, I live between the towtruck and the small parts bins

If I don't make a joke out something I'll just sit here and cry.

Thanks all
Renyta

[curse within]

Panhead, I am very sorry this has came to what it is.

You story is very much the same as many who come here...As I mentioned treat her right I know you want this to work out..

Give her time to adjust and think it over.. I couldn't tell you how many times my wife said IT WAS MY PROBLEM NOT HERS... It is a phase of denial and it can be worked through.. Give her space and understanding ..You know her best as I am sure with some good advise it will work out..

Best wishes always here for P.M. if you need..

[KimberlyJo]

She's feeling so hurt. What is it about a man wanting to express femininity that is so painful to society. Why is it such a dramatic issue...sigh. Is it really a firm line between masculinity and femininity that holds the fabric of our society together??

I'm so sorry Ren

[Nicki B]

She told me that her entire life was one big lie and I am to blame, I have ruined her life. She is right and I am so very sorry,

But she's not right, is she?

She's the one trying to ruin it, right now. She has all sorts of ways of reacting, she's chosen one, all by herself. You didn't choose it for her..

[Dressing Jill]

First off I want to say what a relief it is to find you all. I cry every time I get on this site. Wow I feel so much support here.

Ok I love what everyone is saying and I would only repeat it all. Pick what feels good to you. Feelings make us who we are.

I spent a lot of time with a medicine women in the 90's. She was all about the planet changing into duality. Its a hard transition for us (humans). We like to feel comfy and snug and everything is just so perfect as our lives go on. Chira was an amazing women. I am still learning what she thought me 10 years later.

Part of walking in the female energy is the compasion we feel for others. Look closely at ones own self for the same understanding others seek. We may never understand it all but we can all walk thru the evalotion(SP). I have not experienced this and can only send you my love and support, my heart goes out to you.

Luv Jill






Sorry about my spelling it seems like they do not have spell ck anymore. I think that they think that I have learned how to spell over the years on a computer.LOL..... I was raised as a boy than a man and spelling wasn't a big one.LOL.........

[Georgia Rose]

Society conditions most people to think in certain ways. It seems to me that men have been generally conditioned to act in certain ways and showing emotion and wearing a dress are not amonst them. Similarly women have been conditioned about what a man is supposed to be all about. Over the last 100 years or so, greater constraints seem to have been placed on men as far as behaviour is concerned while those on women have been eased somewhat.

I suspect Panhead's wife is reacting as she is for 2 reasons, one is her lifetime of conditioning from society about what men are supposed to be and the second is that she has only found out about something that has been going on for a long time. It is quite possible that the conditioning will mean that she will never accept Panhead's CDing as like most people she wants her life to conform to a "norm" as defined by society.

However I suspect that most of us know that there is no such thing as "normal" just a whole range of different people whose idiosyncracies are hidden from public view.

Panhead, maybe you just need to be patient and keep chipping away. She might eventually go to the therapist with you or she might get on the internet and find out more. It might be that she is just scared especially about your sexuality. A lot of what I have read on similar threads is move slowly and ake it a day at a time. Best of luck.

[Hali]

She's feeling so hurt. What is it about a man wanting to express femininity that is so painful to society. Why is it such a dramatic issue...sigh. Is it really a firm line between masculinity and femininity that holds the fabric of our society together??

I'm so sorry Ren

To be honest if i have an SO and come to me and tell me that she can talk to ghosts, animals, or that she is a sadist, etc, with the exception of being a serial killer etc.............my first reaction to her confession will be an interest, i will first of all ask her how she feels and whether i can render some help or not, but it looks as if there is a firm line between masculinity and feminnity that holds the fabric of our society together.

I said it one time in one of the posts that any male or female individual who holds masculinity and femininity issues (gender issues) so rigid and makes loose remarks and become extremely angry or show some worth behaviour over gender issues must have issues somewhere.

How can a "loving" SO deny you love cos u CD i thot the marriage is for in sickness or in health? OK if an SO said CDing is sickness then they should stick with their CDing SO give that CD all the love and cooperation to control or remedy the situation not to distance themselves.

[Deborah Jane]

5 weeks isn't long for her to come to terms with it, she's probably in turmoil right now, a lot of what she says will be in anger!!

You need to give her longer to come to terms with it!!

[Shelly Preston]

I was able to find a time of peace here today and talked to my wife in a somewhat normal manner, I may have found the reason for her outburst. I followed the advice of many here on the forum and found a therapist who I have been seeing for several weeks, she has been a huge help in my quest to find some peace of mind. None of my dealings with the therapis have been hidden from my wife, I have been very open about everything.

My wife took a call from the therapist's office the other day about a change in my appointment time, it seems that call was what triggered my wife's outburst. She told me today that it looked as though I finally found someone who would "Put a stamp of approval on your perversion."

I asked two questions in a very calm manner and was shot down on both. The first: "Would you come with me and talk to the therapisst?"
The answer I got was "No, I'm not the crazy one here, you are."
The second: "Would you go on the forum and look at some of the posts?"
I did go into some detail as to where she should look and if she decided to post a question how to go about it. I received the same answer, "No way.".

It takes time for any spouse to come to terms with crosdressing this is something most of us have had years to adjust to and even then we still struggle

I did say I was sorry for my remarks yesterday and also told her I was sorry for not telling her that I was a crossdresser many years ago. She told me that her entire life was one big lie and I am to blame, I have ruined her life. She is right and I am so very sorry, but I did not want to end up dying from another heart attack and have her find my stash, I felt that would be a terrible way to find out. I did not get a comment to anything I said which is her way of dealing with something she doesn't like.

Some spouses cope by takling an out of sight out of mind attitude Others take a long time to adjust to a shock like this it can be years before they become comfortable even talking about it

I guess I won't hear anything until the next event triggers an outburst.

If anyone wants to find me, my new address is: Make a right turn at the Model A, go to the end of the tow truck, I live between the towtruck and the small parts bins

If I don't make a joke out something I'll just sit here and cry.

Thanks all
Renyta

Yup making jokes sometimes helps us all cope sometimes

I am sure your wife is having similar times to get over this sudden shock

This affects both of you
I just hope you can both work it out in time

[Kolokea GG]

Another thing to think about is does she truely know what cding is......Is she thinking you want to transition..is she thinking that you've cheating in someway. Honestly these are the things that could be running through her mind..I know they did in mine. Its the what ifs that are running through her head...if she didn't know about that..what else does she not know about.