Thanks for letting me know I don't pass

[susandrea]

You have to watch this (some swearing):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl0PZ...rom=PL&index=1

Eddie has probably had to explain himself more than any transvestite (he's British, and 'transvestite' is used there more than crossdresser) in the world.

His attitude is to be calm and groovy -- even humorous -- about it, setting up a 'mood' that nearly requires the 'unwashed' person he encounters to relax and at least be tolerant.

Of course being famous helps, but like I said, he's been through this so often, especially since he doesn't wear a wig.

On the other hand, he's had his share of discouraging situations, especially when it comes to his acting. He finds that whenever a producer is told about him they automatically assume he's some kind of 'character', like Dame Edna.

And lately, many of his fans keep asking him why he hasn't been 'femme' lately and he has to keep explaining that now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bavmKncLk8

[MissConstrued]

you ARE kidding, right??? "What right do you have to be adressed as you wish to be adressed?"??? That's EVERYONE'S right, sweetie.

I'm sorry, where is that one in the Bill of Rights?

I would really like to know where some of you get off, expecting to be treated with respect everywhere you go, just because you're somehow f***ing special. It's nice when it happens; folks should treat others with respect; and it would certainly make a nicer society. But there's no law.

Maybe some people think us freaks, and wish to indicate so. Do they not have a right to their own opinions? Do they not have the same right to free speech as you? (At least, while it lasts...)

When it comes to retail, of course being rude to customers is stupid. But a proprietor may treat customers however he pleases (with the exceptions as regards the ADA), and it's entirely up to YOU at that point how you'll react to it.

Asking to be addressed as you pretty obviously wish to be adressed is not asking alot of people. It doesnt ruin their day, or cost them anything.

Obvious to you, maybe. Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman. Now what do you do? Once you have established that your customer is male, "sir" IS linguistically correct, like it or not. The wise retail minion would use neither if he wasn't sure.

Secondly, we're not all so hung up on pronouns. I don't care what someone calls me. On the same night, I'll get sir, miss, and ma'am. The former appear to have better eyesight, or have consumed less alcohol. How does it affect my life in the slightest? So there wouldn't be a universal proper way to address a CD customer anyway.

So a retail minion directs a snide remark your way. Welcome to Earth. Fat people get it. Teenagers. Goths. Yuppies. Mexicans. You're not special.

And yes, to go about with the expectation that you should be addressed in a certain way, and to expect everyone to know it -- by extension, expecting to NOT be offended -- is arrogant. Haughty. False sense of entitlement. Clear enough?

[Seamus_Jameson]

I don't want to get involved in a flame-war here; I do think it was a pretty shitty thing to have happen, even if the guy didn't mean to be rude. I'm just going to add a thought to MissConstrued's post.

If a proprietor said "sir" every time he saw a woman wearing men's clothes, he would insult a lot of women and drive away business. For that reason alone, I am unlikely to ever be called sir in any establishment. Yes, it upsets me and I can chose to correct individuals. . . but I can't change the world. It would wear me to threads if I tried. Simplest solution: don't go back. Or, next time, tell him politely, "it's ma'am". Just don't waste time with jerks.

My two cents.

[Melissa A.]

I'm sorry, where is that one in the Bill of Rights?

I would really like to know where some of you get off, expecting to be treated with respect everywhere you go, just because you're somehow f***ing special. It's nice when it happens; folks should treat others with respect; and it would certainly make a nicer society. But there's no law.

Maybe some people think us freaks, and wish to indicate so. Do they not have a right to their own opinions? Do they not have the same right to free speech as you? (At least, while it lasts...)

When it comes to retail, of course being rude to customers is stupid. But a proprietor may treat customers however he pleases (with the exceptions as regards the ADA), and it's entirely up to YOU at that point how you'll react to it.




Obvious to you, maybe. Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman. Now what do you do? Once you have established that your customer is male, "sir" IS linguistically correct, like it or not. The wise retail minion would use neither if he wasn't sure.

Secondly, we're not all so hung up on pronouns. I don't care what someone calls me. On the same night, I'll get sir, miss, and ma'am. The former appear to have better eyesight, or have consumed less alcohol. How does it affect my life in the slightest? So there wouldn't be a universal proper way to address a CD customer anyway.

So a retail minion directs a snide remark your way. Welcome to Earth. Fat people get it. Teenagers. Goths. Yuppies. Mexicans. You're not special.

And yes, to go about with the expectation that you should be addressed in a certain way, and to expect everyone to know it -- by extension, expecting to NOT be offended -- is arrogant. Haughty. False sense of entitlement. Clear enough?

Clear, and completely false. I didnt mean to give you the idea we were talking about laws, here, or the Constitution. We were, as far as I can tell, talking about basic, decent civility. About living in a society where certain rules and codes regarding respect and citizenship still, believe it or not, do apply.

I AM entitled to expect to be treated a certain way, so long as I conduct myself that way towards others. YES, I DO get to decide, not what people call me behind my back, but how they adress me. That isnt arrogance. not in any universe, except perhaps, the alternate one you seem to be inhabiting. That's giving and recieving a minimum amount of respect. Something most people still try to do in their day-to-day lives. Not because I'm "special". Or haughty. Or arrogant. The only thing I feel entitled to is the same decency and respect I give. Having a legal right to do anything doesn't make it right. You actually are going to stand there and say about name-callers, bigots, immature cat-callers- that we should all just get used to it??? And that if I don't, I think of myself as special?? So we should all simply get out of the way of these people because they have a "right to their opinions"? That's not what we do in a civilised society. But seriously, even I wouldnt put people like that in the same class as someone who would try to demean me by intentionally calling me by the obviously wrong pronoun, but I don't have to quietly tolerate any of them.

No one was talking about life sentences for being intentionally insulting. And I, for one, am not so delicate as to let it scar me. Nor do I whine about it. But is said person wrong? Rude? Acting ignorant and bigoted? You betcha. And THAT's what we were talking about. If they persist after I politely correct them,(and I will), that's them. It says alot more about them than it does me.

hugs,

Melissa

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Do you honestly think that if something is not enumerated specifically in the Constitution and/or the Bill of Rights, or by extension, in the Constitution of any one of the several states then somehow there's no reasonable expectation of it? How silly. Besides that, how was the original post somehow extended to be a violation of any law? No one expects that. Silly again. All that was talked about was someone expecting NOT to be treated with intentional rudeness and people defending that point of view.

-Joni Mari

I'm sorry, where is that one in the Bill of Rights?

I would really like to know where some of you get off, expecting to be treated with respect everywhere you go, just because you're somehow f***ing special. It's nice when it happens; folks should treat others with respect; and it would certainly make a nicer society. But there's no law.

Maybe some people think us freaks, and wish to indicate so. Do they not have a right to their own opinions? Do they not have the same right to free speech as you? (At least, while it lasts...)

When it comes to retail, of course being rude to customers is stupid. But a proprietor may treat customers however he pleases (with the exceptions as regards the ADA), and it's entirely up to YOU at that point how you'll react to it.




Obvious to you, maybe. Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman. Now what do you do? Once you have established that your customer is male, "sir" IS linguistically correct, like it or not. The wise retail minion would use neither if he wasn't sure.

Secondly, we're not all so hung up on pronouns. I don't care what someone calls me. On the same night, I'll get sir, miss, and ma'am. The former appear to have better eyesight, or have consumed less alcohol. How does it affect my life in the slightest? So there wouldn't be a universal proper way to address a CD customer anyway.

So a retail minion directs a snide remark your way. Welcome to Earth. Fat people get it. Teenagers. Goths. Yuppies. Mexicans. You're not special.

And yes, to go about with the expectation that you should be addressed in a certain way, and to expect everyone to know it -- by extension, expecting to NOT be offended -- is arrogant. Haughty. False sense of entitlement. Clear enough?

[susandrea]

Personally, I believe that 'ladylike' behavior should lead the way.

Behave like the person you want people to believe that you are.

Also, always remember that you are expressing yourself for your own enjoyment, and not for the benefit of others.

Today's society gets plenty of signals from sensationalist headlines (Tranny robs bank!) so anytime a person of transgender has a chance to gently educate someone for the better by being gracious, it should be considered a privilege. You are being given a chance to improve the world, even if it's only one small way at a time.

Crossdressers follow many other types of people who have been treated very badly in public situations, and it has been historically proven that being aggressive almost always backfires.



Things do change for the better, but only through education and example.

[Nicki B]

Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman.

Do you honestly believe there are only two possible options? So often your comments appear that way..

[Melissa A.]

Personally, I believe that 'ladylike' behavior should lead the way.

Behave like the person you want people to believe that you are.

Also, always remember that you are expressing yourself for your own enjoyment, and not for the benefit of others.

Today's society gets plenty of signals from sensationalist headlines (Tranny robs bank!) so anytime a person of transgender has a chance to gently educate someone for the better by being gracious, it should be considered a privilege. You are being given a chance to improve the world, even if it's only one small way at a time.

Crossdressers follow many other types of people who have been treated very badly in public situations, and it has been historically proven that being aggressive almost always backfires.

Things do change for the better, but only through education and example.

I agree, completely. Always be polite. But correcting someone, in an intelligent, civilized way, can only help.

Hugs,

Melissa

[MissConstrued]

Do you honestly believe there are only two possible options? So often your comments appear that way..

Check the previous sentence about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Context.

[susandrea]

I agree, completely. Always be polite. But correcting someone, in an intelligent, civilized way, can only help.

Hugs,

Melissa

Yes, and if people ask dopey or even insulting questions, answer gently, maybe even with a bit of humor.

The nicer you are the faster you will win someone over, even shame them a bit. Changing someone's mind is very difficult, but it can be done.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Sweetheart, I'm not sure where you were during the late 50's and all the thru the 60's and 70's and even now...but things didn't get changed by everyone being nice to each other.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Personally, I believe that 'ladylike' behavior should lead the way.

Behave like the person you want people to believe that you are.

Also, always remember that you are expressing yourself for your own enjoyment, and not for the benefit of others.

Today's society gets plenty of signals from sensationalist headlines (Tranny robs bank!) so anytime a person of transgender has a chance to gently educate someone for the better by being gracious, it should be considered a privilege. You are being given a chance to improve the world, even if it's only one small way at a time.

Crossdressers follow many other types of people who have been treated very badly in public situations, and it has been historically proven that being aggressive almost always backfires.



Things do change for the better, but only through education and example.

[LA CINDY LOVE]

When you are out and about and feel or demand that you should be treated by the way you are dress is wishful thinking.......you are just going to get your feelings hurt.

You need to have a open mind when out and about and understand that society really knows very little about us and is just trying to understand us all.

Getting dress up and walking out your front door into society can be very scary, that is why passing is so important to so many, lets face it the better you pass the better you are going to get treated............sometimes.

LA CINDY LOVE

[susandrea]

Sweetheart, I'm not sure where you were during the late 50's and all the thru the 60's and 70's and even now...but things didn't get changed by everyone being nice to each other.

Hugs...Joni Mari

No, it happened through peaceful civil rights demonstrations that were often violently interrupted -- only to be followed by more peaceful ones. The riots that occurred were setbacks, not steps forward.

Remember Rosa Parks? She didn't scream or yell, just quietly demanded her rights.

http://www.grandtimes.com/rosa.html

In August 1994, Parks was attacked in her home by a young man who wanted money from her. Of the event, she writes, "I pray for this young man and the conditions in our country that have made him this way. Despite the violence and crime in our society, we should not let fear overwhelm us. We must remain strong."

Parks' belief in God and her religious convictions are at the core of everything she does. It is the overriding theme in her book and the message she hopes to impart: "I'd like for [readers] to know that I had a very spiritual background and that I believe in church and my faith and that has helped to give me the strength and courage to live as I did."

[Melissa A.]

Sweetheart, I'm not sure where you were during the late 50's and all the thru the 60's and 70's and even now...but things didn't get changed by everyone being nice to each other.

Hugs...Joni Mari

Ya pick your battles...I think that's what she was saying. There's a big difference between a Trans-rights rally (anger allowed) and correcting someone in an everyday social situation. In that instance you're representing others like you, like it or not. And politeness does go further in a situation like that, anyway.

Hugs,

Melissa

[Lorileah]

Nor do they have to be changed solely by confrontation. Peaceful non-violent demonstrations were just as much a part of changing society as were riots and bombings. In regard to the photo MLK preached non-violence. I stole a line from Sam Cooke in my signature because I believe that song sums up everyone's struggle for equality, even the TG's.

It would have served no purpose for the OP to throw a fit in the shop. It could have escalated to a very bad scene had she done so. There have been many "civil" replies given here that would have sufficed to either make the man think next time a TG came in or embarrass him enough he would think twice the next time if he wished to get more business.

MissC made the point that it was his establishment. He can choose who he serves. Not a smooth move to alienate clientele though. Being confrontational with him may have actually led to being arrested.

there is an old adage that says "if you like the service, you will tell a friend. If you don't like you will tell seven." Let's just not go to that store.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Hey Susandrea and Melissa-

I stand corrected. You are both right, it wasn't taking to the streets nor by persuasion and the pulpit, not by any of these alone, that progress has been achieved for any group that was once a marginalized minority. Thank you for pointing it out.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[susandrea]

Just last week two crossdressers came into my store. Both were tall, thin, fairly well-dressed, but easy to read. They just were.

I waited on them and found them to be fun and charming, especially when they realized I was on their side, not nervous, defensive or judgemental.

After they left, one of my 'tough guy' co-workers commented that no matter how much I 'explained them' they were still 'messed up'.

Instead of launching into a tirade about transgender I said, 'Think about how very brave they are'.

After thinking about it, he said, 'I guess you're right. They certainly are very brave.'

I also reminded him to always address crossdressers as they present themselves -- as women. He responded by saying, 'I never would have thought of that'.

So. I didn't change his mind all at once, but I did get him to think 'brave' instead of 'messed up', and hopefully he won't address any CDs in the future as 'Sir' -- but I wouldn't hold my breath.

People react badly out fear and ignorance. If you always keep that in mind -- no matter who you are and what the situation is -- you have a chance to think clearly and react well.

I see people treated poorly every week -- the morbidly obese, special needs kids, Middle Eastern immigrants, gays of all kinds, the very poor, goth teens... you name it. Crossdressers are just another log on the fire of intolerance.

Society has a long, long way to go.

How many times have I seen CDs on this very board criticize the GGs of today for looking 'sloppy'? LOL I do that myself.

[Nicki B]

Check the previous sentence about putting yourself in someone else's shoes. Context.

But MC, you have made similar observations before? And you didn't answer my question - what do you think?

[Princess Chantal]

Just wondering, Do you get just as upset if you are portraying your masculine self and get "Ma'am'd"?
I've heard many crossdressing people taking this error as a compliment when it happens...... Does it mean that you failed for being a man?

Personally I don't mind if I get referred to as Sir or Ma'am when I'm in my feminine appearance. In my opinion Sir is used as a form of polite address for males. And oh look I am a male..... not a female.... not a transitioning person.

On another note,
Us guys tend to look damn mighty fine out and about in skirts!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

I would really like to know where some of you get off, expecting to be treated with respect everywhere you go,

Coloradan, meet New York Stater (and Illinoisan). Of course we expect to be treated with respect everywhere, It's a part of the "societal social contract" here. Isn't it there?

just because you're somehow f***ing special.

It's not that we're special, it's just expected that people be polite, to everyone.

It's nice when it happens; folks should treat others with respect; and it would certainly make a nicer society. But there's no law.

Sure, there's no law but there's an unspoken and unwritten "social contract", which changes over time.

Do they not have a right to their own opinions? Do they not have the same right to free speech as you? (At least, while it lasts...)

They can think whatever they want, write whatever they want, but in retail relationships, business dealings, employment, housing, or just being out in public they'd better follow the rules (both written and unwritten) and social contracts.

Put yourself in someone else's shoes for a change. Hmm... I see a man in a dress. Man is the operative term. A man in a dress is a man, not a woman. Now what do you do?

You do what you're expected to do and what you've learned to do, and in some cases actually taught to do, you use ma'am.

Secondly, we're not all so hung up on pronouns. I don't care what someone calls me. On the same night, I'll get sir, miss, and ma'am.

For some of us, the pronouns are important.

So a retail minion directs a snide remark your way. Welcome to Earth. Fat people get it. Teenagers. Goths. Yuppies. Mexicans. You're not special.

No one should get it. People can think what they want, but there's unwritten social contracts. And around here they include, "don't be a rude asshole, be polite to everyone." It's a part of "fitting in"

And yes, to go about with the expectation that you should be addressed in a certain way, and to expect everyone to know it -- by extension, expecting to NOT be offended -- is arrogant. Haughty. False sense of entitlement.

How is it arrogant or haughty when that is what happens. You come here and go out crossdressed you WILL be addressed as Ma'am or Miss. Anyone who doesn't address you so has either not been paying attention (ignorance) or is being intentionally rude.

I expect people to know the proper behavior in regards to us, the same way I expect people not to use nasty racial epithets in public or to not call persons with Downs syndrome the "r" word.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

[Veronica75]

Coloradan, meet New York Stater (and Illinoisan). Of course we expect to be treated with respect everywhere, It's a part of the "societal social contract" here. Isn't it there?

I think at least a small part of the New York "social contract" of general politeness-- at least IN NYC-- is that you have no idea whether the person you're talking to (no matter who they are or what they look like) might turn into a raving, violent psycho at the slightest insult. Makes riding the subways a lot nicer than if everyone acted like they really felt.

[ReineD]

I think this is about the regular public not knowing what to say or do when they encounter a person who doesn't fit into either of the two boxes "male" or "female". It's happened to me too and it's a bit crushing as you think to yourself "can't they see what I'm trying to say? (be?)" ... I think it just means that these people need to be educated in how to address a TG person.

I agree with Rachel.

This has happened to my SO a few times, even though she goes everywhere dressed and she passes at the 95% mark, IMO. In some contexts, some people cannot ignore gender cues and unless this person has any experience dealing with TGs, he would have no clue how to address you. Think of it .. he may have framed it the only way he knew how, likely thinking you were going to an event that required you to dress that way. He likely has no understanding this is who you are inside.

I know it might be difficult especially in the beginning, but if this person did not say this to be rude (or even if he did), you could use the opportunity to educate him. You could say candidly, with a smile, "I dress like this because I am transgendered. I would like to be a return customer, but I feel uncomfortable being addressed as "Sir" when I am dressed this way."

The old gentleman might surprise you, apologize, and call you "Maam" from now on.

[jo_ann]

should have said "sir? where? I'm a maam'". I love people that think they're special for being able to read someone, like they're waiting for a prize for being right.

[dilane]

An older man walks out asks me what I wanted and I gave him my order. As he was putting the doughnuts in the bag he says..."do you want anything else...SIR" OH thanks for noticing the wig, the breasts, the skirt, the nylons. I guess the only saving grace was that the 3 men didn't say a word. Maybe I'll try another doughnut shop next week.

Yes, that happens to all of us more or less as a function of our appearance and vibe.

I got sirred a few years ago after a nasty two hour session of electro. My chin was all swollen, and I looked awful in either mode. She was a young waitress, and she meant no harm, but I told her nicely that when presenting as a femme, I'd prefer ... etc, etc... And she apologized and we chatted a few more times in a friendly manner.

I have a similar attitude to Miss Construed -- many people are shocked and flummoxed when first encountering an alien of our species, some are deliberately rude, and some are cool. You've got to roll with it. It's going to take awhile -- if it ever comes to pass -- before we're routinely addressed in our presenting gender. Remember, we are a small and paranoid minority; we don't have the rich well-oiled political and media apparatus that the Gay community has assembled over the years, although they've been generous enough to let us tag along lately.

In my particular case, I try to blend in, not being too big and having a decent voice, so I don't get much trouble. When I am read, I get the feeling that I'm at least respected for doing a decent job. I'm not shy, I make eye contact and chat. That makes a difference, too. If you're on defense, the whole world zooms in on you, or at least it seems that way.

-- Diane

[susandrea]

should have said "sir? where? I'm a maam'". I love people that think they're special for being able to read someone, like they're waiting for a prize for being right.

I doubt that's the case at all. You know many CDs don't try to pass! In other cases it's usually something like the voice that causes a question of gender. When that question arises during a time you have to interact with someone, say in a business setting, a person may feel a bit panicky that they'll say the wrong thing. (Kind of like asking a woman when she's due, only to have her coldly tell you she's not expecting). Being in the jewelry business, we HAVE to read everyone, trying to judge if they might be possible thieves -- either grabbers or the type to try and pass bad cards or checks. Looking closely at someone becomes automatic.

On the flip side, we get many butch lesbians in our store and it's a challenge trying to figure out of they are trying to pass as men or not(could they be transgender??), and how they might want to be addressed.

MOST people don't want to cause harm, and feel embarrassed for THEMSELVES that they don't know the correct way to act. Others are just jerks, and are most likely jerks to many people, not just CDs.

Several weeks ago a group (about eight) of fetish CDs came around, and everyone near me was fascinated. They were all dressed as little girls -- tights, patent leather shoes, frilly party-type dresses -- very much like dressed up Shirley Temples -- very detailed and expensive -- and all of them were taller than me and I'm 5'9''. Everyone around them was curious as they stopped to have their picture taken. I was actually surprised not a single person said anything mean.

Now, how would you address someone you know is a man who is dressed as a little girl? I would go with 'Miss', even if they're six feet tall.

Then another CD walked by, about two weeks ago, no wig but a short, manly haircut, no jewelry, no nails, no make-up -- nothing feminine except that he was wearing a short green skater's dress with sequins and a pair or high-heeled sandals. Now if he has come in the store it would have thrown even me, because he certainly wasn't trying to pass. I guess I would have introduced myself and asked his name, then taken my cue from there.