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Thread: The Honesty Conundrum

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaM View Post
    <<But doesn't the gene found suggest that there is need to make the world more TG friendly for the sake of children and childrens children? Doesn't it make overcoming transphobia part of protecting our own familes (mine too, I still have cousins!)>>

    I don't know Batty, that seems to be a stretch.
    I would think that if it was a gene found they would more likely curb it rather find use for it..Just as they would with any birth defect..

    Hitler still lives amoung us ,a perfect human is societys idea of the future.

  2. #102
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Oh and further on biological causation of CDing as I argue in my blogpost on the sbuject http://caveofrationality.blogspot.co...causation.html

    Science doesn't work by proof but by constructing falsifiable hyptheses and then testing them and being unable to disprove them. My post was in response to a discussion at Zoe's blog here http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/05/...e-you-are.html in which the following public comment was left, (emphasis with bold added by me for this post) make of it what you will...

    riki said...
    I am doing a PhD on the political and social implications of the brain sex theory of trans. My assessment is that there is certainly more evidence for that theory than for any other, but that it is far from "proven", and that many biological hypotheses have been falsified on the past (EG the HY antigen in the 70s and 80s). The psychological theories have very little evidence to support them.

    I interviewed Dick Swaab, whose lab produced the BSTc research that is the strongest evidence for a neurological correlate for trans. It should be noted that one of the six MTF transsexual people in the original 1995 Zhou study had never transitioned, but insisted that they had a female gender identity. It sould also be noted that the 2002 Chung study found that the difference between males and females in the BSTc does not occur until after puberty, which poses some problems for a pre or early post natal hormonal causation theory.

    Swaab thinks the BSTc is probably a part of a network in the brain involving the hypothalaumus and cortical areas.

    "We only, by accident, hit on a little bit of it"

    He also explicitly supported the idea that there is a biological causation for the whole range of gender identity variations:

    "I think we talked about a scale like the Kinsey scale for sexual orientation – we should also have a gender identity scale. It is not either this or that; there is also something in between. The distribution will not be simple, but here will be people somewhere in the middle."

    "So it is not the entire brain that is switching, it is some systems, and that may also be the explanation for the [gender identity] scale. Some systems do switch and others don’t and it depends on which systems have switched where you enter on the scale."

    Other recent research (as reviewed by Zoe in earlier blogs) also supports the idea of certain sex differentiated brain areas being switched in ts or tg people while others are not.

    So if that is the opinion of Swaab, perhaps the best qualified scientific researcher in the field, perhaps we can accept that tg is as likely to be biological as ts?
    And by all means folks, follow it up. I dont mind being disproven, science learns new things all the time many that don't follow predictions.

    But for choices we make right now we must act on the evidence and probabilities available right now so my points based on this research remain valid not till there is definitive proof (as science doesn't even work that way! Those in doubt look up naturalistic methodology or any textbook on philosophy of science) but until there is disproof.

  3. #103
    GG Extraordinaire letsdance GG's Avatar
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    Never mind. Won't matter what I think anyway. If you choose to continue picking me apart, by all means have at it.
    Last edited by letsdance GG; 06-06-2009 at 08:50 AM.
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  4. #104
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by letsdance GG View Post
    Never mind. Won't matter what I think anyway. If you choose to continue picking me apart, by all means have at it.
    I'm not picking anyone apart.

    I'm not attacking anyone.

    I'm just raising important questions.

    Only slight variations of the hard questions the Suffragettes asked each other that led to women getting the vote, only slight varaitions of those that feminists asked themselves that led to women gaining near-equality, that African Americans asked each other that led to desegregation and the current presidency, the same questions that gays asked themselves that led to their being decades ahead of us!

    Some questions have painful answers. But hiding our heads in the sand just passes the buck and makes others suffer for our inability to ask and answer hard questions. And some of those painful answere lead to less pain in the future. And if you look at my actual points like the one above where I say many shouldn't yet come out because of risks to jobs but instead fight for ENDA from the closet to protect against accidental outting you'll see i'm not saying what everyone keeps reading into my posts thats not actually there!

    I'm not saying anyone did the wrong thing to their children. I already said I'm sure people made the best decisions they could with the knowledge and ideas at hand. I'm just saying we need to consider these questions, all of us, and that the answers may take years to implement but that we need to start now... gradually!

    I think we've been avoiding these questions for fear of discomfort or painful truth. If these questions lead to truth that however painful leads to progress maybe thats the most important honesty we have to deal with that we are hiding from.

    It's better to pull a rotten tooth than die of blood poisoning, pain often goes hand in hand with growth and healling.

  5. #105
    Silver Member AmandaM's Avatar
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    Batty, I think the acceptance of TG's in world society is in shades of gray and a black and white approach to it is not useful in all contexts.

  6. #106
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaM View Post
    Batty, I think the acceptance of TG's in world society is in shades of gray and a black and white approach to it is not useful in all contexts.
    I don't think my approach is black and white, especially when my personal view is expressed that those married CDs without workplace protection should probably work within the closet for that rather than come out.

    And I'm not suggesting lesser-of-two-evils approaches are invalid. But my points do suggest that the short-term lesser of evils may well be for many the long-term greater and vice versa.

    By all means look at the point-form versions of some of the questions i posed and we can discuss the relativist perspectives on them.

    We needn't take just one approach on these ideas. By all means lets examine those shades of gray

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    I think few would dispute that in an ideal circumstance a CD should be honest about their CDing early on.

    Of course theres a lot of things that make a circumstance not ideal that many discuss here a lot already.. self-acceptance, the trust involved in coming out early, the risk of being outted publicly, fear of burdening the family etc.

    But I think it's worth considering the broader issue.

    If we say a CD should come out to their partner early, despite the dangers to the relationship, family, job, career etc...

    Then shouldn't the CD also be honest to everyone? Shouldn't they be honest to Parents, children, siblings, cousins, workmates and on to cover everyone? Certainly some of these relationships are more important than others but shouldn't CDs be honest in all of them?

    Shouldn't SO's? Shouldn't they risk their families, their friendships, their jobs even by being open about being in a rlationship with a CD (as well as any skeletons in their own closets)? Essentially if a SO thinks a CD should confess they are a CD despite the risk of others judgement should not the SO be willing to eqaullly share that burden?

    But this drives me to a far stronger conclusion than simply avoiding hypocracy.

    If an SO thinks that CDs should come out early, do they not have a responsibility to make it easier for all CDs to do so?

    So if an SO thinks CDs should be out to them from the outset don't they have a responsibility for working towards transgender civil rights and social acceptance? The very things that would protect their partners job but also make it easier for future CDs to come out to their partners and at least make things easier on the next generation?

    And then I consider the evidence that there is a genetic aspect to being transsexual and that the scientists behind many of these discoveries think this will be true for all forms of transgender. Which means that the children of CDs will have a greater chance of being CD/TS...

    So then don't SOs have a responsibility to strive for TG rights and acceptance for their childrens or grandchildrens sakes?

    This seems to me the consequences of concluding that CDs should be honest with their partners. What do you think?


    I'm not sure why you went to such lengths to confirm in your last setence what you started out by saying 'few would dispute', in your first sentence.

    Between the two are a lot of suppositions that don't necessarily or logically support it. (ie: social & career suicide)
    What would be accomplished by my SO exposing any skeleton's they may have. Some kind of perverse solidarity so we can sink or swim together? Both without jobs?


    ... for the sake of brevity.

    Responsibility- We are responsible to ourselves alone. More than that is dictated by personal belief, integrity, ethic and circumstance. And no two people have the same circumstances.

    Conversely, 'I am my brothers (sister's) keeper' and should do what is right. But again, what is right is dictated by personal belief and circumstance, of which no two are the same.

    It is not someone else's responsibility to fight my battles. If they believe my cause is just, I would expect them to step up, but it's their decision. So no, SO's do not have a responsibility to strive for tg rights. They have a responsilility to be true to what they believe is right. I'm the one that put on the heels, so I'll walk in them. Others will follow and support because they believe in me. If my SO doesn't believe in me I've got bigger problems than gender acceptance.

    So, I agree when you first said 'a cd should be honest early on' and I agree in your conclusion that 'CDs should be honest with their partners'. I don't agree with the logic connecting the two.


    P.S. ... Do you realize you've written 3039 posts since you joined. That's amazing. That's like, 84 posts a month, or almost three posts a day, every day, seven days a week for three years. Incredible.

  8. #108
    Silver Member AmandaM's Avatar
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    Of course theres a lot of things that make a circumstance not ideal
    that many discuss here a lot already.. self-acceptance, the trust involved
    in coming out early, the risk of being outted publicly, fear of burdening the
    family etc. But I think it's worth considering the broader issue.
    If we say a CD should come out to their partner early, despite the dangers
    to the relationship, family, job, career etc...
    Then shouldn't the CD also be honest to everyone? Shouldn't they be honest
    to Parents, children, siblings, cousins, workmates and on to cover everyone?
    Certainly some of these relationships are more important than others but shouldn't
    CDs be honest in all of them?
    No, I don't think we can say the CD'er should come out at all times.

    Shouldn't SO's? Shouldn't they risk their families, their friendships,
    their jobs even by being open about being in a rlationship with a CD (as well
    as any skeletons in their own closets)? Essentially if a SO thinks a CD should
    confess they are a CD despite the risk of others judgement should not the SO be
    willing to eqaullly share that burden?
    No, you link the first argument to this one. If a CD comes out, then that doesn't
    necessarily require a GG to also. This is highly dependent on individual life
    circumstances.

    But this drives me to a far stronger conclusion than simply avoiding hypocracy.
    If an SO thinks that CDs should come out early, do they not have a responsibility
    to make it easier for all CDs to do so?
    You have linked the second argument to the first to justify a perceived hypocrisy.
    There is no justification, still. And an SO can only make it easier if they are
    seeking out CD'ers as partners. Else, it's just an intellectual exercise.

    So if an SO thinks CDs should be out to them from the outset don't they have a
    responsibility for working towards transgender civil rights and social
    acceptance? The very things that would protect their partners job but also make
    it easier for future CDs to come out to their partners and at least make things
    easier on the next generation?
    No, even if SO's actively seek CD'ers, they do not have a responsibility to
    forward any cause. You are linking this third argument to the first two trying
    to create an ascending responsibility chain. Yet, there is no substance to your
    attempt. You state only assumptive conclusions.

    And then I consider the evidence that there is a genetic aspect to being
    transsexual and that the scientists behind many of these discoveries think
    this will be true for all forms of transgender. Which means that the children
    of CDs will have a greater chance of being CD/TS...
    So then don't SOs have a responsibility to strive for TG rights and acceptance
    for their childrens or grandchildrens sakes?
    This seems to me the consequences of concluding that CDs should be honest
    with their partners. What do you think?
    There is no substantive evidence that the children of CD's will become CD's.
    Therefore, this fourth argument in your escalating responsibility chain is
    also not valid. It is still all supposition. You did not logically link the
    right of a GG to know her man is a CD to any of your latter arguments. This is
    only an argumentative essay designed to force people to think. But, in your efforts,
    it has backfired. Instead of thinking about this subject, all their thinking about
    is that you are a boob. (pun intended, lol).

  9. #109
    Tracy Schapes TSchapes's Avatar
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    I've held off commenting on this long one...

    but I feel I need to say a few things. I certainly don't wish to argue these previous points that have been beaten to death.

    First of all, I think we need to look back at any civil rights or human rights movement and recognize that not everyone who would benefit would be either in a) a position to be able to make a difference , nor b) have the courage to make a difference or c) even believe that the movement was right for them. For example, there are still women that believe that they should not have equal rights with men, and therefore would never stand up for women's rights. You are not going to get everyone on board to join in a crusade to help with transgender rights.

    Second, there has to be a tipping point. That is, when more than just a few cross-dressers and their SO's are out fighting for understanding. This means cisgened people (like friends, neighbors and extended family) will have to be supportive. How does this happen? By those of us that can come out, to slowly and with some sort of decorum come out to those we can. Not by being in your face on Jerry Springer or arguing with some shock jock. I say be honest when you can, but certainly use some sense as to what you may be sacrificing when you do. Again, as in my first point, this is not for everyone.

    Third, and I wish I could remember who said this, but "What if every person in the world that is LGBT were to suddenly turn green?" I think if this were to happen, honesty would not be a factor at all. So this is crux of both gender identity and sexual orientation conundrum. We are not automatically visible like it is for women and racial issues. We can hide.

    So yes this is a conundrum, a puzzle, a problem having only a conjectural answer. It's a classic chicken and egg problem, what comes first acceptance or visibility?

    I believe the only thing we can wish for is a cascading type process. One person will come out, which will allow another and another, and eventually, cisgened people that are our allies will out number those that are not. And CD's that haven't been convinced that TG rights are worth fighting for will be able to join in when they can.

    Tracy
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  10. #110
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    reply to 2 posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jane1 View Post
    I'm not sure why you went to such lengths to confirm in your last setence what you started out by saying 'few would dispute', in your first sentence.
    Because they are two different points. The first sentence says:
    "I think few would dispute that in an ideal circumstance a CD should be honest about their CDing early on." And then sentences mention "a lot of things that make a circumstance not ideal". While the last sentence "the consequences of concluding that CDs should be honest with their partners"

    The last sentence refers to people saying that a CD NEEDS TO be out to their partner no matter what and what that means for them too, that in expecting the CD to out themselves from the start at great risk doesnt that mean they have an obligation to be willing to take such risks themselves.

    Does that explain it better?

    What would be accomplished by my SO exposing any skeleton's they may have. Some kind of perverse solidarity so we can sink or swim together? Both without jobs?
    Virtue. Lack of hypocracy. Integrity. But the IFs are crucial.

    Responsibility- We are responsible to ourselves alone.
    We aren't crocodiles. We are a social animal with each member gaining benefit from that, like a pack, a herd, a swarm, a flock. Not only does the UN decleration of human rights recognise this but so do the majority of philosophers throughout history. See: State of Nature and Social Contract Also Rawl's Veil of Ignorance.

    What about responsibility to ones own underage children for example?

    Consider, if a child is drowning before you and you can swim well and they cannot and you dont save them you killed them by will. By choice of inaction. How can someone make a choice and yet not be responsible for the predictable consequences of that choice?

    P.S. ... Do you realize you've written 3039 posts since you joined. That's amazing. That's like, 84 posts a month, or almost three posts a day, every day, seven days a week for three years. Incredible.
    Wow. I hadn't noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaM View Post
    If a CD comes out, then that doesn't
    necessarily require a GG to also. This is highly dependent on individual life
    circumstances.
    Crucial difference. I'm referring to IF the GG thinks the CD MUST or SHOULD be out, not IF the CD merely decides to.

    There is no substantive evidence that the children of CD's will become CD's.
    There doesn't need to be, just the implication that there is or may be a greater chance which the finding of a TS correlate gene does all on it's own until dissproven. Besides even without a TG gene if TGs are 1% of the population they have a 1 in 100 chance each child of theirs will be TG even if by a non-TG father, if TG's are 10% a 1 in 10! The breast cancer gene increases the breast cancer risk by 10% iirc. So there is always a chance a child, grandchild, nephew, cousin etc will be TG.

  11. #111
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    well i guess this means that the arguement over whether a GG being honest over her CDing partner and his CDing being the cause of the seperation (if they decide to split) mutes any of the old arguemnets about it being against his privacy
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

  12. #112
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheila View Post
    well i guess this means that the arguement over whether a GG being honest over her CDing partner and his CDing being the cause of the seperation (if they decide to split) mutes any of the old arguemnets about it being against his privacy
    Nope.

    As the concepts are, if correct:

    IF a CD SHOULD be honest from the start with one relationship THEN unless there is a KEY difference (which some say there is!) the CD should come out to other relationships like parents, siblings and children etc.

    That doesn't mean the GG gets to out them after a split.

    And IF a GG thinks a CD SHOULD risk all relationships and livelihood by trusting the GG from the start with potentially damaging information THEN the GG SHOULD also be willing to suffer the same risk.

    That doesn't mean they have to be out, only apply the same standards of risk to themselves that they demand from their partner.

    And IF a GG thinks a CD SHOULD be open from the start AS ITP and ETP are the main if not only cause of their hiding THEN the GG SHOULD make it easier for other CDs to be open to other GGs from the start by fighting ITP by raising acceptance whatever way is appropriate and ETP by fighting discrimination like the risk of job-loss which helps their family and others too.

    Just outting their partner especially after a split is not doing that really.

    And AS any child could be TG AND there may be a genetic inheritable increased chance THEN fighting ITP and ETP is also protecting ones own children.

    Again outting a CD partner after a split is not doing that much either.

    But fighting for ENDA would be. It could protect Alimony payments, child support etc.

  13. #113
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    now I am not surprised no way
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

  14. #114
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie B View Post
    [*]Telling one's spouse is not the same as telling one's boss or one's neighbours. I have entered into a socially-recognised personal contract with my wife, an impersonal contract with my boss and no contract at all with my neighbours outside common law and friendship.
    That the relationships are different is clear. But what is the operative difference that effects disclosure at which stage of intimacy? This is needed to know what relationships disclosure of being a CD is neccessary.

    And remember we do consider some things, like STDs, require disclosure by law prior to engaging in sexual acts but outting someone elses medical history against their will is often considered both unethical AND a crime. So both an obligation to anothers privacy as well as an obligation to disclosure BOTH exist in ethics and law in certain circumstances.

    Firstly on when one would someone be obliged to tell:

    A first date?
    Asking someone on a first date?
    Before first sexual encounter with that person?
    Before Marriage?

    As for other relationship types:

    Should close friends where there is a strong trust bond be told?
    Ones parents?
    Ones children?
    Ones siblings?
    A Boss if being outted could effect the business?

    If not that, why? If not you, who?
    Darn good questions.
    I decided that I couldn't stand by and that if I wanted anyone else to do things then I should do them too so thats why I'm doing what I can, increasing in stages both my public outness and my civil-rights activity.

  15. #115
    Administrator Tamara Croft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    But fighting for ENDA would be. It could protect Alimony payments, child support etc.
    Why do you keep ramming ENDA down our throats? ENDA is a proposed U.S. federal law, and I'm not from the US, neither is Sheila, or did you miss that fact? And don't bother picking my post to pieces, a simple yes or no will do if you can manage that
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheila View Post
    well i guess this means that the arguement over whether a GG being honest over her CDing partner and his CDing being the cause of the seperation (if they decide to split) mutes any of the old arguemnets about it being against his privacy
    absolutely great point. If you is gonna be honest and out then you can't fault you ex for telling everyone. That is one reason that in our society we have to keep secrets. This will never be an ideal world. You can't walk up to someone and say "you're the ugliest thing in the world" put in parentheses (just being honest). Batty's conundrum points this out. Everyone has taken it as you HAVE to. When what Batty said (if I remember so long ago) is that if we expect honesty we should be honest and it won't happen in the real world. The conundrum as I see it is that CD's want total acceptance even in their closet except when it may hurt their feelings. So if you want public acceptance and you get outted by your SO (usually not due to CDing but from some other arrogant selfish thing(s) you have done), expect her to tell someone.

    See the conundrum? Damned if you due, miserable if you don't. So I say we work on removing the stigma and then being outted as a CD is no worse than sitting around the house in your boxers and the true reason your wife is packing her bags becomes more evident to you. IT isn't the clothes usually, it is the BS you bring with it. Take that from a princess who knows the world revolves around her.

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  17. #117
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara Croft View Post
    Why do you keep ramming ENDA down our throats? ENDA is a proposed U.S. federal law, and I'm not from the US, neither is Sheila, or did you miss that fact? And don't bother picking my post to pieces, a simple yes or no will do if you can manage that
    No.

    I mention ENDA as an example.
    In Australia that anti-discrimination laws vary from state to state and most don't cover CDs only TSs if any and that unfair dismissal laws only cover businesses with large numbers of employees anyway and antivillification laws don't even cover TS and that Australia has no federal charter of rights at all would be Australia examples.

    Is the UK a haven of TG equality? Not going by http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...d.php?t=108207 or http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/2...stic-violence/
    Has it got all family issues covered?
    But as these are general principals I'm discussing it doesn't matter, I'm not talking about anyone here's specific lives.

  18. #118
    Administrator Tamara Croft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    No.

    I mention ENDA as an example.
    No you did not, or you would have said ENDA for example, you did not say that to Sheila, you said, and I quote: -
    But fighting for ENDA would be. It could protect Alimony payments, child support etc.
    Where in that sentence does it say example?

    And London is just one place, don't base the whole of the UK on some pride march. I live in Nottinghamshire, it is very TG friendly, so is Manchester, so is Birmingham... the list goes on... basing that one article on the whole of the UK is an extremely bad reference.
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  19. #119
    Silver Member AmandaM's Avatar
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    Geez Batty, do you "have to win" the arguments in this thread?

  20. #120
    Administrator Tamara Croft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmandaM View Post
    Geez Batty, do you "have to win" the arguments in this thread?
    Isn't that obvious? I asked for a simple yes or no, still didn't get what I asked for, had to add a load more waffle that still isn't relevant to the original post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara Croft View Post
    Isn't that obvious? I asked for a simple yes or no, still didn't get what I asked for, had to add a load more waffle that still isn't relevant to the original post.
    I think the reason could be that Batty's a natural for the political arena!!

  22. #122
    They call me quiet girl.. Sarah...'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara Croft View Post
    I asked for a simple yes or no, still didn't get what I asked for,
    Oh, I don't know. Granted, Batty's response had many words, as is her style. But her response did nonetheless start with the single word sentence:

    "No."

    Equally, I may have been tempted to put "No." in one post and the rest in a second, supplementary post.

    Sarah...

  23. #123
    Platinum Member Sheila's Avatar
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    Batty many many have responded here so where do you stand on the questions above ................. no ifs or buts or maybes ............... what is your stance on them?

    1) DO you think a CD should come out to their partner early, despite the dangers to the relationship, family, job, career etc...

    2) do you think the CD shopuld also be honest to everyone? Shouldn't they be honest to Parents, children, siblings, cousins, workmates and on to cover everyone? Certainly some of these relationships are more important than others but shouldn't CDs be honest in all of them?

    3) do you think ... that if CDs should come out early, the SO's have a responsibility to make it easier for all CDs to do so? ..........


    4)do you think SO's? Should risk their families, their friendships, their jobs even by being open about being in a rlationship with a CD (as well as any skeletons in their own closets)?

    5) so Essentially ,if a SO thinks a CD should confess they are a CD despite the risk of others judgement should not the SO be willing to equally share that burden? ...... do you think this should be the case ?


    6) so having given your answers to the above ..... do you believe ...SOs have a responsibility to strive for TG rights and acceptance for their childrens or grandchildrens sakes?

    please number your answers in accordance with the questions for ease of refernce ..... thanks
    Last edited by Sheila; 06-07-2009 at 01:27 PM.
    I allow myself to set healthy boundaries ..... to say no to what does not align with my values, to say yes to what does.
    Boundaries assist me to remain healthy, honest and living a life that is true to me

  24. #124
    Banned Read only battybattybats's Avatar
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    neccessairly long response to properly answer questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamara Croft View Post
    No you did not, or you would have said ENDA for example, you did not say that to Sheila, you said, and I quote: -
    Where in that sentence does it say example?
    Are you suggesting I also have to use the word term before using any term as well as the word example before using any examples? I'm not sure Linguists would concur. But if you suggest I failed to make my use of an example clear then granted that seems to be the case and I'll try to be more obvious. If however you are saying I am a liar thats rather different.

    And London is just one place, don't base the whole of the UK on some pride march. I live in Nottinghamshire, it is very TG friendly, so is Manchester, so is Birmingham... the list goes on... basing that one article on the whole of the UK is an extremely bad reference.
    Sure, issues vary over geography, though part of the pride issues relate to police behaviour and the other link relates to the UK government. Btw do you have the local stats for TG employment rates? Perhaps we need to work out what TG-friendly places are doing right and un-friendly wrong to better fic the unfriendly places.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheila View Post
    Batty many many have responded here so where do you stand on the questions above ................. no ifs or buts or maybes ............... what is your stance on them?
    A fair question.

    1) DO you think a CD should come out to their partner early, despite the dangers to the relationship, family, job, career etc...
    As soon as they can, yes. As the SO should be able to give truly informed consent in the relationship. But ITP is far from easy to overcome and I think that needs to be acknowledged by us all and that has a resulting responsibility on the entire community both Cis and Trans to overcome, just as racism and sexism is everyones problem. And as ITP is so hard to overcome some CDs plain wont be able to come out to partners from the outset, or for many years. Even though I was I acknowledge others are in worse situations, especially because of the era many older CDs married in where the consequences of coming out and the level of acceptance were much worse, and when marriage was touted by some as a cure for homosexuality and the like.

    As the overcoming Internalised Oppression article points out people aren't to blame for suffering from it.

    2) do you think the CD shopuld also be honest to everyone? Shouldn't they be honest to Parents, children, siblings, cousins, workmates and on to cover everyone? Certainly some of these relationships are more important than others but shouldn't CDs be honest in all of them?
    As they can. These relationships are delicate and it may take a long time to effectively come out to each without losing each relationship. Gradually working up to it and helping them adjust slowly is I think often the best way but of course each situation is unique. But transphobia is everyones problem, like racism and sexism. Besides I think everyone deserves to be able to be the real them and for others to have a chance to know the real them, a feelling expressed by most of my family and friends when I came out to them.

    3) do you think ... that if CDs should come out early, the SO's have a responsibility to make it easier for all CDs to do so? ..........
    I do think that ending transphobia is everyones responsibility, every CDs, every SOs, and everyone elses too. But that doesn't mean it's best fixed by mass outting.

    4)do you think SO's? Should risk their families, their friendships, their jobs even by being open about being in a rlationship with a CD (as well as any skeletons in their own closets)?
    Just as ideally a CD should be out to the SO from the outset I think a CD should be able to be out as a CD in society and not hide it nor be penalised for being so. And that an SO should ideally also be open about it and not penalised for that.

    However because of the delicate relationships involved as well as risk with work etc and the consequences of transphobia that this too pragmatically is difficult, likely needing to be gradual, a likely neccessarily long-term goal. And so gradual work on TG acceptance of each relationship and related issues is likely the optimum way of making this possible rather than directly confrontingly coming out to everyone from the outset. However every out SO makes a big difference to increasing TG acceptance and overcoming the wrongs done to the society by transphobia.

    Again circumstances vary case to case so this is generalised rather than universal. Each is a unique circumstance and a matter of balancing predictions of consequences of each possible action and inaction each with it's own responibilities.

    5) so Essentially ,if a SO thinks a CD should confess they are a CD despite the risk of others judgement should not the SO be willing to equally share that burden? ...... do you think this should be the case ?
    IF they demand the CD should have been open (an argument of extreme idealism of honesty and virtue that also either ignores (or is held in ignorance of, to be fair) the existence of ITP or assumes every CD must be capable of overcoming it) then It seems thus far to me they'd be hypocrits if they are not equally willing to take those risks and be equally as extremely and idealisticly virtuous as they demand others be (noting that pretty much everyone, myself included, is guilty of hypocracy sometimes, that it is a common human behaviour that can be difficult to be self-aware of and hard to overcome). However even if they are willing that doesn't mean they have to do so, but that if for example the CD wants to leave the house dressed or go to meetings or do anything else where outting is possible, including choosing to come out to members of the CDs family or the CDs friends then it seems to me the GG cannot allow her fear of such risks to permit her to demand the CD stay hidden or they'd be being hypocritical (again acknowledging hypocracy is common and difficult to avoid or overcome). However this is not yet a firm conclusion.

    6) so having given your answers to the above ..... do you believe ...SOs have a responsibility to strive for TG rights and acceptance for their childrens or grandchildrens sakes?
    Yes. But not just them. As I think everyone has a responsibility towards everyones equal rights I think that this is true of everybody for all human/civil-rights issues. That anyone unwilling to undo inequality is cheating the principle of equality and therfore do not deserve the rights and privileges they get from society that are not shared equally. So I think this responsibility extends not just to SO's but to everyone. And for far more than just TG issues.

    Again I keep thinking back to the hopothetical dilemma of a drowning child. Once that child is seen anyone who can swim who does not try to rescue them is choosing to let the child die, they are committing murder by inaction. So too then do I think everyone is responsible for ending transphobia with it's resultant harms to CDs and their loved-ones once they are made aware of it's existence. Otherwise they become responsible for that harm by choosing to let it keep occuring.

    please number your answers in accordance with the questions for ease of refernce ..... thanks
    I hope the question by question answers will suffice?

    And I'm still pondering these conclusions, like every idea I re-evaluate it and re-assess it when new ideas, argumemnts or data becomes available.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    Firstly on when one would someone be obliged to tell:

    A first date?
    Asking someone on a first date?
    Before first sexual encounter with that person?
    Before Marriage?
    At no point is anyone obliged to tell anything they don't wish to. Wisdom dictates that one's future spouse should know, however, though I deem it simpler to show rather than tell. In other words, I don't come right out and say it, but I don't hide it either. Show a hint here and there (nail polish, wear panties, etc... lol) and women will clue in. But making a "confession" of it gives the wrong impression.



    Quote Originally Posted by battybattybats View Post
    Should close friends where there is a strong trust bond be told?
    Ones parents?
    Ones children?
    Ones siblings?
    A Boss if being outted could effect the business?
    No, to all of them. Again, this is personal choice, and depends on one's situation. If, say, my brother asked me, I'd tell him the truth, but as he lives 2000 miles from me, it's just not necessary. What would be the point?

    All kinds of people have all kinds of secrets. Maybe that guy you watch football with puts on a dog collar when he gets home to his cat-o-nine-tails wielding wife. Or your co-worker, sitting across your desk, who likes donkey porn. Maybe your sister likes to live out her fantasy of having 9 guys in bed at once. Maybe your cousin likes her husband to pee on her. Would you beat them up with many words until they tell the world of their kinks?


    Bosses... absolutely not. What an employee does on his own time is none of his employer's business. Period. Drug testing that is not specific to whether the employee is under the influence only during work hours is already crossing the line.

    I haven't even bothered to look into this ENDA thing you're on about, but I suspect it's yet another pile of legalistic excrement designed to further tie the hands of employers in the name of some more of your imaginary "rights." No one has a right to a job. One's employment exists at the whim of the employer -- and even when I'm an employee, I'm okay with that. Keeps me on my toes, working hard, and doing a good job.

    And I've found something startling: as long as I work hard and do a good job, the boss doesn't care if I dress up like Little Bo Peep, smoke weed, and rape squirrels on weekends.

    And if... big if... I ever ended up working for someone who had a problem with something I did on my own time, I wouldn't wait around to get fired. I'd quit, and go to work for someone who wasn't an asshole.

    Boiled down, and simply put: if, for any reason, you need your job protected by law, you're f***ing incompetent, and should just get a federal job, where incompetence is the status quo.

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