Normal, liars or selfish

[TGMarla]

Arianna's right, Andrea. Most of us are just doing what we can to get by with what we have. Why crack on us like this? What is this going to accomplish? Our behavior is "not normal" and "needs to be corrected"?

Well, as others have already asked, what do you consider "normal"? Should we all suddenly lose our individuality and fly straight? Or are you just suggesting that we stop flitting around in high heels? By your standards, I assume, "normal" is doing only what society in general deems acceptable, as long as it's not illegal. Any movement to one side or the other is "not normal".

And how would you suggest that we go about correcting this abnormality? I've been exercising this particular behavior pattern on one level or another for 37 years. Should I just suddenly up and quit? I don't even know how to not crossdress. And not doing this would probably make me morose and unhappy. It that an acceptable "normal" for you? Is that really better? Look, if you are unhappy being a crossdresser (assuming that you are a crossdresser), then by all means, quit if you can. As for me, it helps keep me sane and happy.

As for that long tenure that Dina alluded to (and the reason I question whether you are actually a crossdresser)...you joined in January of 2006, and you are already on your 11th post! Wow! That's almost one post every four months! Slow down, honey! It's overwhelming us!

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Books have been written on this, from nearly every point of view from TG is a perfectly okay way to be to it being a serious pathology in need of intervention and therapy.

To me, gender, which is what we're talking about, how you feel inside about yourself, masculine or feminine, lies along a continuum. No one is 100% one or the other, though lots of guys will hotly declare they are. I even think you can kind of shuffle along that line, sometimes feeling more masculine, sometimes more feminine. Nothing about feeling a particular way about yourself is "wrong" in and of itself.

Normalcy or being "normal" is a social construct and has varied from one era to another, from one social group to another, from one setting to another. Behavior considered normal at one time among one group would be considered wildly abnormal or even dangerous in another. Your normal probably isn't mine.

If you don't like how you are, then go get yourself fixed, but don't try to generalize from your own feelings to how all of us are or should be. Good luck.

Hugs...Joni Mari

[LisaM]

However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

It really comes down to your definition of normal. I think there are a lot of men that like women's clothing so to me it appears normal.

Also, I object to your statement that it needs to be corrected. Why does it need to be corrected? Is it harmful? Does it have to be corrected because it is not deemed 'normal'? What about other habits or behavior that is not deemed normal? Do they have to be corrected? I don't think mountain climbing is normal and it certainly can be harmful. Should that be corrected? What about nose rings? I don't find them normal. Should we correct people who have them? They may not be harmful but they look like they may have hurt when they were received.

I have learned to accept myself and I realize that most people harbor secrets of some type so I've come to accept that all people are normal and all of them are different from each other.[/QUOTE]

[DameErrant]

So what if CDing is not Normal? Normal is just a statistic average, and tells us nothing about whether it's right or wrong, a neccessity for us or just a hobby, whether it is a real expression of who we are or a head game we are playing with ourselves. For me it is a good thing, a neccessity and an expression of who I really am.

Normal? What does that mean? To comform to statisitical averages, I would have to be a middle aged female, I.Q. around 100 (by definition,) High School diploma only, deep in debt, probably a white ethnic, and nominally a church goer. Which of these am I really? Does it matter?

And in any event, I think Normal is over rated. I am me, and I don't care if I conform to the statisitical average.

[Celeste]

So what if CDing is not Normal? Normal is just a statistic average, and tells us nothing about whether it's right or wrong, a neccessity for us or just a hobby, whether it is a real expression of who we are or a head game we are playing with ourselves. For me it is a good thing, a neccessity and an expression of who I really am.

Normal? What does that mean? To comform to statisitical averages, I would have to be a middle aged female, I.Q. around 100 (by definition,) High School diploma only, deep in debt, probably a white ethnic, and nominally a church goer. Which of these am I really? Does it matter?

And in any event, I think Normal is over rated. I am me, and I don't care if I conform to the statisitical average.

I agree with everything above,and would add that we all seek self gratification in one form or another.It is about achieving some sense of happiness in life.

I,m not one to question the means by which one attempts to achieve it,it's simply their conception and their personal idea.Personally I'm willing to grant one that space

[Lorileah]

However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

First you have to define "normal". This is difficult because "normal" for some is abnormal for others. If you take normal as the high point of a bell curve 99.9% of the world falls outside that and would need to be corrected. If you define normal as being inside the bell curve you have to delineate the points and the normal shifts to fit someone's perception.

So in your world it isn't normal. Your world is not my world or anyone else's. (bad grammar pardon me)

Now technically wearing any clothing may not be a normal human behavior. We are born into the world naked. We are prescribed by the views of the society we live in that clothing is required. Depending on the climate, one would be very able to survive naked. Clothing was at first a way to protect us from the environment. It allowed humans to expand.

The idea of sexually suited clothing is relative. Often it suited a paternal need for access or subjugation. It wasn't a practical matter. It was to please the eye of the beholder in history where males were the dominant gender. As civilization moved on, the idea of clothing to attract a mate was not limited to one sex vs another. Even though the male was the dominant gender it was imperative to attract at least one female to procreate. So costumes that were more ceremonial rather than practical were used. Whereas before the ability to hunt and kill was more important than looks, now that we had more control over our environment, a mate had to have something to attract a partner. That became colorful clothing or something to enhance a sexual organ (Long pointy shoes suggested that the wearer had a larger organ...thus now CD's find it hard to find shoes that fit because our ancestors liked men with big...feet).

Before this gets into a deep dissertation that most the CD's here know by heart (yes it is unfair that women "get" to wear whatever...we have been through that before). Most of what we as CD's wear was once "ours" to start with. 400 years ago a man in makeup was the "norm". Pumps were originally worn by pages in the court and were named because they had a sound that resembled a pump when one walked. Our founding fathers wore wigs and silk stockings. With the exception of a bra (which was not invented until the 20th century) everything we wear was at one time "normal" male attire. Since I have not found the stone tablet that described male/female attire, we will have to say that nature doesn't care what we wear. If it was based on practicality it would still depend on your environment. Leather breeches and a tunic would be highly impractical in the Sahara.

So "normal" is hard to define. If you feel it is abnormal, then you need to find a way to adhere to what you feel is normal. But normal would be such a fine area that no matter what you decide, you will be abnormal to the person next to you. You are normal for you, I am normal for me, and as long as normalcy does not interfere with your ability to survive and procreate (the only true needs of any species) then you cannot press upon us your concepts. As civilization moves along and humans get more control over their environment, clothing will always be a personal thing. If you wish to adhere to arbitrary rules, then I guess you are normal.

But to paraphrase either GB Shaw or Robert Kennedy, "Most people look at something and ask 'why'? I look at it and ask 'why not?'"

SO why is this abnormal?

[Melissa A.]

I'm sorry but I cannot help wonder if sometimes a post like this is written to create as much response as possible

...Uh, yeah.

Hugs,

Melissa

[happygirl]

this is not a girlfriend, this is a play for us. To have the teeth to say what she says spouts hate, not love and understanding

[DinaMature]

this is not a girlfriend, this is a play for us. To have the teeth to say what she says spouts hate, not love and understanding

back to my referance earlier of a lurker... ie read "spy"

[Sammy777]

Main Entry: nor·mal
2 a: according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle
So what? In order to be "normal" you have to follow the rules?
Which leads to part two below.

b: conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern
So if 6 out of 10 people do something, it is automatically considered the norm, or "rule" and the other 4 people in the group must now "conform" in order to fit in
[ie: be "normal"]

3: occurring naturally
Straight/Bi/Gay/Lesbian as well as CD/TS people are born that way.
So isn't the shear fact of being born make you normal?

4 a: of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development b: free from mental disorder : sane
A rational [normal] person will suit themselves to their surroundings.
An Irrational [not normal] person will change their surroundings to suit themselves.

What does this mean?
A rational person will live under a tree.
An irrational person will cut down those trees and build a dwelling with them.

So on that it can be said that: Every social and technological advancement made by the human race since the dawn of time has been made by IRRATIONAL people.

So with that being said, if given the choice, I will gladly hang out with all the irrational people on the planet then the "normal" rational people.

[dawnmarrie1961]

Who defines what is normal? If your answer is : Society. Than you are probably looking to Society for acceptance.
The question amongst cder's should be: Who's acceptance is paramount to my well being and happiness?
Some would say "God's".But she already accepted you, long before you were born.
Some would say "my S0 or family members". Yes. Good answer. But not entirely correct.
In order to receive acceptance by anyone you must "first" accept yourself.
If you don't.
How can you expect it from others?
There is nothing selfish about needing to accept yourself first.
Isn't that why we try to teach our children to "judge not others lest you yourself be judged?"
I'm not trying to preach from the pulpit here. I'm just trying to make some common sense.

[Prissy Linda]

The common idea on this forum is that crossdressing is a normal or atleast relatively normal thing. I've been thinking is it normal though, are crossdressers just liars, they lie to others, not being what they seem, and/or they lie to themselves, that what they are is normal and not a problem or that they are just a neutral gender and not possibly a homosexual. The other idea is that it's based in selfishness all about indulging themselves and not caring enough about others, looking to themselves to acheive what they want.

I'm sure that the response on this forum will be mostly that what I think is wrong and that I am talking out of my ass. However, I am becoming more steadfast in the idea that crossdressing is not a normal human behavior and one that needs to be corrected.

I suggest you quit dressing up like a woman and start acting like a normal man, stop lying and being selfish. Simple.

[Miranda-E]

back to my referance earlier of a lurker... ie read "spy"

very good point

[dawnmarrie1961]

One Point:
If eight out of ten people you work with think you're an @-hole, that doesn't mean you work with eight haters, or that only one person at work understands you, it means you're an @-hole!!!
Crossdressers don't get a "pass" on their societal obligations, all the same rules apply. Personality doesn't affect Character. You don't have to like everyone, but you have to respect everyone.

Good point.
I'm sure we can all agree that from time to time we all act like a bunch of @-holes.

And you are absolutely correct on the societal obligation to respect everyone, even if you don't like them.

Good common sense.

[Jaclyn NM]

Who knows what"normal" really is? I think it all depends on the social mores at the time. For example, look at the progress gays have made in the last thirty years. It still bugs me that it is "normal" for females to wear male clothing, but unacceptable for males to wear female clothing. Why is that? It probably won't change in my lifetime, and I do regret that. It would be so nice not to have this double standard.

[sometimes_miss]

Andrea, life isn't a simple thing. It's often very, very complicated. The 'lying' to others and ourselves about our gender identity and sexual orientation isn't necessarily lying, just because we haven't figured out exactly what we are just yet. For example, some people brand certain behaviors as strictly homosexual, and believe that anyone who ever practices that behavior must be gay. But that doesn't make it true. And, of course, neither is the reverse. Just because a guy likes to kiss girls doesn't make him straight either!
We live in a wide gender spectrum, and sometimes it takes a long time to figure out exactly who and what we are.

Yes, crossdressing is an aberration, but so would wearing a winter coat in the summertime be. That doesn't make it a problem unless the one doing it feels that it is.

Andrea, not all of life is about our being and doing what others want us to be. Our lives are our own; yes, should we wish to dedicate it to selflessly giving up any and all of our own pleasures to help others we can do so. But I have no plans of being a martyr to make the rest of the world happy.

Face it, we live in a world where many people feel they have the right to tell others how to live, no matter how miserable it makes them.

No, crossdressing is not 'normal' behavior, but neither are lots of other things. But it is harmless to the rest of the population, and as such, we shouldn't be mistreated the ways we often are. Nor is there any way known to correct this behavior without causing other problems. There is no valid reason to 'correct' us.

JMHO.

[Sarah...]

One Point:
If eight out of ten people you work with think you're an @-hole, that doesn't mean you work with eight haters, or that only one person at work understands you, it means you're an @-hole!!!
Crossdressers don't get a "pass" on their societal obligations, all the same rules apply. Personality doesn't affect Character. You don't have to like everyone, but you have to respect everyone.

No. No it doesn't mean that at all. It means they have a point of view which is open to scrutiny and discussion on both sides. If you "have" to respect everyone then so do they. Which means you can't be an "@-hole" just because someone says you are. Because everyone "has to respect everyone".

Sarah...

[SherriePall]

Forget all the arguments about NORMAL.
Andrea, if you are a true CDer, hun, than you must realize that you didn't just decide to become one. I remember my first feelings so very long ago before I started school. I couldn't even spell crossdress, let alone know what it meant.
As far as lying, yes, many of us have done that through omission. We don't tell that we do. Most people don't ask if we do, so why should we tell them?
Being selfish? As others have posted here, no more than someone who goes fishing or hunting (or some other pursuit). I am sure that I haven't spent as much on clothing and make-up as someone who bought a bass boat (no offence to any of my fishing friends). I make sure that I have plenty of time for my family (and over the years I feel I neglected myself at times to ensure that).
You make reference to homosexuality. In the non-CDing community that is generally the thinking: CDing equals homosexuality. We know that it is not true. According to most studies, it is the same percentage in the CDing community as the general population.
So, in conclusion, if you feel you have been lying, being selfish, or denying your homosexuality, correct those traits.
Doing so will set you free.
The rest of us who already know who we are wish you the best.

[kellycan27]

Being "normal" notwithstanding, most of us just do the best we can with what we have to work with my friend.

Simply put, and nicely said.....thank you

[Nicki B]

Lying, and being selfish, isn't normal human behaviour???

[TGMarla]

Nice follow-up, AR. You and your 11 posts in three and a half years should just go away now. Maybe a mod will do you justice and close this stupid thread.





[SIZE=1](Yeah, yeah...I know I posted twice. Now I'm going to go put on a dress for a while.)[/SIZE]

[Petrina CD]

If it was "normal" I'm quite sure that I probobly woudn't want to bother with it . The fact that it is not normal is what gives me a little thrill.

[dawnmarrie1961]

My good friend , Forest Gump, used to say,"NERMAL is as nermal DOES."

Frankly I had a little trouble understanding him some times but I often found comfort in his words of wisdom.

CDing is "NERMAL" here at www.crossdressers.com, otherwise it would be just another boring, NORMAL, forum. No fun at all!

Normal is an "oxymoron" because no two things are exactly alike no matter how similar they may appear. Differences define individuality. Similarity defines groups that share common traits. People prefer the comfort of similarities. Individuals often change uncommon traits in order to become part of the group.

Personally ,the whole thing sounds like a bunch of "cows " herding. I won't want to be a part of the stampede heading over the cliff!!

Groups often become armies. The nature of armies is to conquer ,to destroy the individual.

It's getting kinda "DRAFTY" in here.

[Alice Torn]

Normal is an oxymoron? I thought an oxymoron, was a moron, on oxygen!

[stephaniesacd]

having done much more reading on this forum than anything else, I felt I had to respond to this particular post. I have been crossdressing on and off for most of my 40 years on this planet and consider myself quite normal, mentally stable, and honest. As for selfish, as others here have responded, any hobby can be taken as selfish if it excludes others in your life. I have the great fortune to be married to a wonderful, beautiful lady that accepts both my male side and stephanie and she loves to spend time with both of us. In years past I have wondered if maybe I was abnormal or wierd however being a crossdresser is "normal" for me. What is normal for one person may not be for another. That is what makes people interesting as we are all different in one way or another. As for the thinly veiled assumption that because we are crossdressers we are gay and need to be corrected, is like saying all men that are florists are gay, or that all lady truckdrivers are lesbian. There is absolutely no way to justify such broad assumptions. You are of course entitled to your opinions just as we all are. I hope you find whatever answers you seek and I hope they help you find your own way thru life.