If we are as common as Gays and Lesbians...

[battybattybats]

Discussions of numbers of our community are sketchy, but quite a few estimates have ranged from 6% to 10% of the population. That makes us as or even more numerous than Gisgender Lesbians and Gays!

If thats the case and many here complain that Gays have more social acceptance, and indeed that acceptance is growing as the latest Australian poll puts support for same-sex marriage (an issue that effects married TSs too as in Australia if you transition your forced to divorce to get legal recognition) as having increased to almost 60% of general population and 75% of young people, then shouldn't we look at what they have been doing that most of our community has not been doing and finding ways to help our own TG community?

So then, what is it that Gays and Lesbians have been doing that we have not? What have they been doing more than we have been? How can we change that?

[Seamus_Jameson]

Made themselves very unpopular, I guess. Remember, back in the good old days, folk got arrested and beat up for being gay--or least, apearing gay. But they kept showing up and getting out.

Also, particular sets of circumstances helped them out. I mean, what with the war ending and all these veterans coming back into the country. They were social misfits and the gay scene was one of the communities that actually welcomed them.

I guess we've gotta just keep getting out there in the public view. Pushing the envelope. I suppose one of the reasons is that we lack a pride movement. So much shame is attached to our community that it's hard for members to say, "This is me, this is what I am/what I do. Get used to it!"

[Miranda-E]

There are lots of events and actions through history, but the one thing that turned the tide was the idea that its ok to be who we are and a willingness to fight those that would not let us live our lives as members of society.

[vikki2020]

Right. It's a process, although a slow process.We keep pounding on the wall, and eventually it weakens and falls.I see more and more positive portrayals in the media, and that certainly helps.Little things- here in Chicago, "Diva Nights" and similar parties at local bars designed to attract our business are very popular, and promoted in mainstream media.Every little bit helps,and every step gets us closer!

[Kimmie]

Because many of us have good lives outside of femme, and we are not jumping to be politically active. In this recession, some of us are living day to day, and social issues are secondary to economic survival. Hence we'd like the idiots in Washington to focus exclusively on fixing the damn economy and creating employment opportunities for us. Then worry about other things.

Also, CDing with your girlfriends can be fun and a way to relieve stress, so is watching a ball game with your buddies at a bar. Politics is a chore and a cause of stress.

There I answered your question. Do something unexpected, and not be so eager to argue. I have never once made a friend or converted a person's beliefs through insults or by aggressively trying to prove them wrong.

[battybattybats]

In this recession, some of us are living day to day, and social issues are secondary to economic survival.

Yes but the Gays are fighting to protect their jobs but also OURS too!
http://www.bilerico.com/2009/06/barn...enda_now_l.php

In this recession this bill may very well mean economic survival!

With the same or even less numbers than us they have been winning battles on our behalf with virtually no help, support, thanks or acknowledgement. Like decriminalising crossdressing around the world.

[Joanne f]

They have the advantage of all being basically the same , in that if you are gay or lesbian then that is how the general public will see you so they know they are all fighting for the same thing .
On the other hand what most TGs strive for is the main thing that go`s against them as a group " the visual effect ".
The more visually perfect that a TG becomes the less they want to be seen with the ones that are not so visually passable.
TGs on the most part do not want to be noticed so you have this higher arkey type of thing going on , like if i am higher up on the TG scale than you i do not want to mix with you , it is like a competition a bit like in the working environment , ( i have gone up to management so i do not want to mix with shop floor workers), and until this line of thought can be broken there is little chance of all TG groups sticking together.
And of course there are many sub groups within the TG title which spreads the unlikeyness of full unity even further.
Don't forget that old saying " United we stand and Divided we fall "
Now this is one instance that i would love you all to tell me that i am wrong

[deja true]

...
With the same or even less numbers than us they have been winning battles on our behalf with virtually no help, support, thanks or acknowledgement.

Um...I don't think that's necessarily true, batty. Even deeply closeted het trans folks have contributed monetarily to Gay rights campaigns...

And our social support in conversations with friends and in the workplace and in supporting gay owned businesses and establishments has helped them (and us tangentially!).

Just 'cos a large number of het folks don't wear political buttons or t-shirts proclaiming our support doesn't mean we ain't been doin' it on the down low, stealth style. (Heck, I've chosen a lawyer to do some work for me specifically because she was seen as gay ... and prolly a closeted FtM!)

Our help, whether vociferously or clandestinely, has helped and is helping many disadvantaged groups. We got the numbers, we just don't got (or look for) the publicity. You know why!

I'm proud to be a fifth columnist. Don't need the acknowledgement. It's a karma thing!

[Marisa_M]

I agree with Joanna's post.

And I can add that if most of us for different reasons need to live a secret feminine life it is impossible to join strong and active organizations to fight for our rights and needs.

But times are changing. Those of us who lived at the pre-Internet era know very well how isolated, lonely and also guilty was our life.

Now we have Forums, blogs. photo sites and lots of different places to express ourselves and share everything we want with people with similar interests.

I'm quite sure the WWW is a powerful tool to help us built a better future.

[battybattybats]

They have the advantage of all being basically the same , in that if you are gay or lesbian then that is how the general public will see you so they know they are all fighting for the same thing .

The GLB community is not nearly so neat. There are divides on race, the straight-acting gays look down on the camp and the queens these days, Bisexuals and lesbians are still not given the same level of respect or their issues considered as important.

Yet despite that they have made more progress than we have.

And of course there are many sub groups within the TG title which spreads the unlikeyness of full unity even further.
Don't forget that old saying " United we stand and Divided we fall "
Now this is one instance that i would love you all to tell me that i am wrong

Sure the GLB community has never been totally unified. It just got enough people active that it made change. And Women and blacks and other civil-rights groups also had big subgroup issues. Mostly these reduced as self-acceptance grew reducing the effect called Horizontal Hostility. After that the biggest threat is the 'throwing under the bus' where the big group at the last minute betrays the smaller 'less acceptable' ones to guarantee their own acceptance. But CDs would be the largest group so we'd just have to not do that to the rest!

Um...I don't think that's necessarily true, batty. Even deeply closeted het trans folks have contributed monetarily to Gay rights campaigns...

I know a few have, but i doubt it's anywhere in the same order as those in the GLB community or our community would be regularly approached for fundraising and would get more support for our issues.

We got the numbers, we just don't got (or look for) the publicity. You know why!

I'm proud to be a fifth columnist. Don't need the acknowledgement.

But to get much sway, to ensure politicians vote for TG rights issues and dont get swayed by the not-my-shower brigade and other hate-groups we need them to know we have that power. And it forms a bridge to self-acceptance for others in the community so they don't feel isolated alone and powerless if they see we have the capacity to stand up.

It's of course harder in some countries and regions of countries than others. But we need some, just like the CD riots of Compton and Stonewall lead to San Francisco developing an out community and a public presence of political power.

[docrobbysherry]

there weren't so many "pervy, child molesting CDs" out there!

Now, if we could remove those thots COMPLETELY from the public consciousness, CDing mite become less stimatized, quite quickly!

[linnea]

I agree with Joanna's post.

And I can add that if most of us for different reasons need to live a secret feminine life it is impossible to join strong and active organizations to fight for our rights and needs.

But times are changing. Those of us who lived at the pre-Internet era know very well how isolated, lonely and also guilty was our life.

Now we have Forums, blogs. photo sites and lots of different places to express ourselves and share everything we want with people with similar interests.

I'm quite sure the WWW is a powerful tool to help us built a better future.

I think that this is a very valid observation. I also think that for those of us leading a "double" life--not 24/7 and in the open--our own behavior works against us. First, we risk a lot by speaking up and out, and second, we can appear to some people to be hiding something, perhaps something socially dangerous, behind our femme appearances.
I do think that things will get better, i.e., the world will gradually become more and more accepting as it already is in some parts of the US and some parts of the rest of the world.

[JulieK1980]

Simply because so many of us hide in the closet, and can still live a forfilling life, we simply have never organized into a group. Its estimated that we are about 1 in 10 of the population which means that about 30,000,000 of us exist in the U.S. However we are NOT organized as a group, and most attempts to do so have failed to date.

It is however a poor generalization to say that none of us help the GLBT community, many TG people do! Heck I support them myself, and even those of us that don't openly do so, still give support by being themselves, just by being closeted and posting on here, helps to send our messages to the populace.

We are a disjointed group that is years away from unifying, and these small steps that many take, and the very large support from the GLBT community will ultimately show its results.

[Sheila]

So then, what is it that Gays and Lesbians have been doing that we have not? What have they been doing more than we have been? How can we change that?

By being more visible in the community, by not hiding in our closets, by not pretending to be anything other than who we are ........ simple really

[Sherry-Stephanie]

Political Actitvism...

[AmandaM]

By being more visible in the community, by not hiding in our closets, by not pretending to be anything other than who we are ........ simple really

As I drive onto the military base to my job, past the armed Marines, I'll think about what the reaction would be if I was wearing a sundress with a flower in my hair. Then, as I move my family into a cardboard box, they'll like it cause I can finally be me. Not so simple.

[Crystal Rose]

As I drive onto the military base to my job, past the armed Marines, I'll think about what the reaction would be if I was wearing a sundress with a flower in my hair. Then, as I move my family into a cardboard box, they'll like it cause I can finally be me. Not so simple.

I deal with the military every day in my life and really struggle with wanting to dress in public when away because I don't want someone to get the wrong idea about my orientation. We are so stereotyped by people in general it makes me sick, I am proud of the TG community though because they don't seem as militant in being rude and accusatory of others because they have a different view.

[obsessedwithpantyhose]

its because the small minds of the cave dwellers can barely wrap their heads around gays and lesbians,,so to stand in front of them in a dress and say im str8 realy blows their peabrained minds all to pieces,,,

gay men dont like women,,they sure as hell are NOT gona wear their clothes,

[Deborah G]

I can agree that we are most likely as numerous as gays and lesbians. However, we are not out there in the public eye pleading our identity and our right to be us. We allow ourselves to be cast as whatever others feel appropriate or inappropriate. We have ourselves to blame. If we set good examples and show others that we're normal, everyday, tax paying, go-to-working types (who happen to enjoy dressing as the fairer sex), we should be OK. I'm not saying this will be easy, but we need to start somewhere, somehow. Just be who we are and the rest will take care of itself eventually, IMO.

[Miranda-E]

gay men dont like women,,they sure as hell are NOT gona wear their clothes,

nice stereotype

[battybattybats]

It is however a poor generalization to say that none of us help the GLBT community, many TG people do!

I didn't say none, I said 'virtually no'.. as while some tiny number of CDs do an absolute heap when looked at as a whole community we as a community do almost nothing at all. Or if we are significantly contributing we are doing so with such successful secrecy that it is harming our own community! If at least we let the groups we contibute to know it is CDs contributing they'd move our issues to a higher priority and if we told other CDs more of our contributions we'd foster more of a spirit of contribution and action.

By being more visible in the community, by not hiding in our closets, by not pretending to be anything other than who we are ........ simple really

That has been a significant part of the GLB communities success. But how do we encourage and support enough to do that? The gay community made it a deliberate act to try to win more acceptance and get more votes on rights issues (As seen in a prominant scene in the film Milk). They decided that it was something that must be done. A small radical number even going so far as to out prominant public figures (something I would not condone unless they were publicly anti-TG if at all). They also gathered together in 'gay ghettos' (that are often now wealthy neighbourhoods) following the Hippies lead in San Francisco that resulted in increased power and visibility and safety while also providing close networks of friends to support those deserted by family and friends when they came out.

Political Actitvism...

They made that a part of their culture working on both sides of politics. The Log Cabin Republicans being one significant gay concervative lobby group as one example. However they determined political activism was a needed part of their community and individual support whereas here and many other CD-TG groups we speak of politics and activism as a dirty word, dispute it's efficacy and allow the pointless partisan bickering of some to prevent any organised bipartisan political activism even though the article on overcoming internalised oppression specifically mentions fighting injustice as one of the most powerful ways of healling shame guilt and self hate! http://ctb.ku.edu/en/tablecontents/s..._main_1172.htm

As I drive onto the military base to my job, past the armed Marines, I'll think about what the reaction would be if I was wearing a sundress with a flower in my hair. Then, as I move my family into a cardboard box, they'll like it cause I can finally be me. Not so simple.

Good point! GLB and especially TG folk actually serve in the military in greater proportions of population than het-Cis folk! The GLBT groups are fighting Don't Ask Don't Tell to get rid of anti-GLBT policies and that has increasing Bipartisan support! Again they are fighting our battles for us more than we are.

But that also leads me back to Sheila's point!

If we need more to come out and if many of us risk our jobs and our families to do so then shouldn't we concentrate first not on encouraging people to all come out and be visible but rather to contribute to and fight for the job-protections and violence-protections and civil rights measures already coming before legislatures in several cities/counties/states and countries? We could even do much of that from the closet. If we were to win those protections then more could come out and be visible, in everday jobs and in military jobs.

[sometimes_miss]

C'mon, Batty, this is simple, and you know it. But I know that you like to write about all this, and try to get things stirred up.

Gays and lesbians are more out than we are, mainly because there are lots of gay and lesbian meeting places where they can meet other gays and lesbians. But there aren't any crossdresser straight girl clubs, anywhere, simply because there aren't a lot of women interested in us. So, there's not much reason for us to be 'out', just based on a simple 'cost-benefit' type of viewpoint. Believe me, if there were such a bar (qualifier, there would have to be a significant amount of women there, not just one token GG and the rest all male crossdressers), and you asked 100 single heterosexual crossdressers if we would go there, the response would be almost completely affirmative. But such a world does not exist yet.

Not sure if it ever will in my lifetime, and I'm still not convinced that just more of us being 'out' will change what females are innately attracted to; there's something inside me that says women are always going to be predominantly attracted to traditionally masculine behavior and dress, and vice-versa. Us trying to appear 'pretty' females screws up the sexual attraction triggers for the vast majority of women.

[AmandaM]

<<Quote:Originally Posted by AmandaM
As I drive onto the military base to my job, past the armed Marines, I'll think about what the reaction would be if I was wearing a sundress with a flower in my hair. Then, as I move my family into a cardboard box, they'll like it cause I can finally be me. Not so simple.

Good point! GLB and especially TG folk actually serve in the military in greater proportions of population than het-Cis folk! The GLBT groups are fighting Don't Ask Don't Tell to get rid of anti-GLBT policies and that has increasing Bipartisan support! Again they are fighting our battles for us more than we are.>>

My fight. That's a laugh. I'll support it when I can wear what I want.

[battybattybats]

Gays and lesbians are more out than we are, mainly because there are lots of gay and lesbian meeting places where they can meet other gays and lesbians. But there aren't any crossdresser straight girl clubs, anywhere, simply because there aren't a lot of women interested in us.

But gender non-conformists have been considered attractive by many GGs! Tim Curry in Rocky Horror, David Bowie, Boy George, Marylin Manson, Davey Havok, Jeffree Starr, Eddie Izzard...

Thing is that many of these GGs do not date us because they are scared of the judgements of their peers!

But not only have there been TG-attracted GGs here on this forum but there was one Australian Big brother contestant who descrived us as her perfect fantasy and I even know 2 in my own town (both taken).

Not sure if it ever will in my lifetime, and I'm still not convinced that just more of us being 'out' will change what females are innately attracted to; there's something inside me that says women are always going to be predominantly attracted to traditionally masculine behavior and dress, and vice-versa. Us trying to appear 'pretty' females screws up the sexual attraction triggers for the vast majority of women.

That is not natural, or all males would look like he-man as thats what would have been selected for over thousands of years and there would be no skinny effeminate male celebrities other than in gay culture. Yet somehow Johny Depp does fine. And here's the clincher. Read this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/72...bulations.html

An African tribal ceremony in which men wearing make-up compete in a beauty contest for the affections of women in the audience...

Hundreds of men, described as "tall, lithe, physically beautiful people with elegant, feminine features", paint their faces to accentuate the whiteness of their eyes and teeth, and dance in the ceremony,

The dancers are judged by women who choose those they would like to get to know better - or even marry

My fight. That's a laugh. I'll support it when I can wear what I want.

Protection of Gender Expression would give you that. Where you may need to wear a uniform (practical identification of rank and unit and camouflage etc) you'd have free gender expression within the unifrom options for men and women. Where you don't need to wear a uniform then you'd be fine wouldn't you. But right now under DADT you can be fired for what you do off-base as a CD het or not.

[AmandaM]

<<Protection of Gender Expression would give you that. Where you may need to wear a uniform (practical identification of rank and unit and camouflage etc) you'd have free gender expression within the unifrom options for men and women. Where you don't need to wear a uniform then you'd be fine wouldn't you. But right now under DADT you can be fired for what you do off-base as a CD het or not. >>

Protection of Gender Expression would be a nice thing.