Can we have it both ways?

[Lorileah]

This is not another how can we be both man and woman to SO's

No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

So in honor of those 7 foot tall Drag Queens who didn't throw shoes but threw bricks (stole that from a radio spot) 40 years ago, can we ask the GLBT community to support us and in the same breath say "I'm not GAY!" like it is a bad thing? If we disassociate ourselves from the community, would you be more willing to fight for what you think you should be entitled to?

[susanCD123]

I agree, and must say "well said". I am happy with myself, and have enough self confidence to move on finally. Hey, life is just way to short to keep denying, and besides, its way way too much fun.

[Carol A]

Lorileah,

Now that is a hard question, I have nothing again a gay person. But I don't feel as if I am gay because I like to dress as a women, sweetheart I have been crossdressing since I was 14 and at 70 see no need to change. It is me and nothing more then that.

[DonnaT]

No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

I know quite a few who are gay, and I give them support.

That said, note that not all Trans folk say what you've indicated. Many do provide support and even hang out with gays.

Also, I can't fault anyone who doesn't, considering not all gays support us.

[pattyv]

Hi Lorileah: Excellent point. We have 3 sons-all straight- and all 3 have gay friends as well as straight friends. My wife and I brought them up to respect different cultures,religions and sexual preferences. They would be applled at some of the latent anti-gay comments posted here.Speak up gurls.

Laura.

[Kimberely416]

In the end, it's all about respect isn't it? I frequent gay clubs because that's the only place around where I can go out dressed and feel safe. As a result, I have made some friends who just happen to be gay; real nice people, I should add. I have made my situation very clear. They respect that and it doesn't stop us from having a good time.

Kimberely

[Gabrielle Hermosa]

I don't see why we can't have it both ways.

I think that a many crossdressers offer that they are not gay because there is that wide perception that crossdressers are gay. Even among other crossdressers, I think some feel the need to be clear on the subject of sexuality.

I think there are also those who offer that they are not gay because they are homophobic, at least to some extent. It may be their way of saying "don't hit on me" or something.

I think it is safe to say that for most straight men, getting hit on by other men, even crossdressers, can be an awkward experience. In that light, I don't think any show of homophobia or insult is intended in the unsolicited "I'm not gay" statements.

Whether or not gay men are offended by such a display... I would imagine some are and some are not. No idea as to the percentages on that.

I don't think that people should feel wrong or shameful about their sexual preference either way. In many threads, it does help to know one's sexual preference in order to better understand where they're coming from in their opinions.

...

Just re-read the thread-starting post. Didn't take into consideration the "not wanting to be associated with the gays." Oh well.

I guess the bottom line is you can't really sum up any one group as a whole, can you? I get what you're saying though.

Perhaps everyone needs to be more open-minded, period - gay, straight, bi, cd, and non-cd.

[Billijo49504]

I have a great respect for anyone that's NOT one of those "I'm so perfect" people. I've worked with several members of the gay community. As a matter of fact, I was down to The Network here in town, to look at some of their reference material, on transitioning, just last week. And the only reason I didn't get to the Pride celebration, is because my 92 yr old dad needed my help. Seems like a lot of people want to point a finger or flip a finger, why don't we just put both of those fingers in the air. As in PEACE...BJ

[Jenny Brown]

So in honor of those 7 foot tall Drag Queens who didn't throw shoes but threw bricks (stole that from a radio spot) 40 years ago, can we ask the GLBT community to support us and in the same breath say "I'm not GAY!" like it is a bad thing? If we disassociate ourselves from the community, would you be more willing to fight for what you think you should be entitled to?

Willing to fight for what? What kind of "support" do you want? What do you think you're "entitled to" that you haven't already got? AFAIK, it's not illegal to CD in Denver, so can you explain what you're talking about here?

[deja true]

Go ahead and tell us you're not gay...

That doesn't necessarily mean you're straight, fella!

You wear women's clothes don't you? Know many "real" straight guys that do that?

Sheesh!

Said it before... I'm hetero-curious! Always wondered what it would be like to grow up to be real man. I might try it sometime. I don't think my gf will mind...

Ha!

[charlie]

Good question. It seems that we are constantly saying "I'm not gay, just a cross dresser". Many of the bars that I go to are gay, and do accept CD/TG. Lots of my friends are both gay and TG. They accept me. Society though will say I'm gay and weird all at the same time. I suppose we are bunched in with the Pride Groups because society lumps us all in together.

[Sara Jessica]

This is not another how can we be both man and woman to SO's

No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

So in honor of those 7 foot tall Drag Queens who didn't throw shoes but threw bricks (stole that from a radio spot) 40 years ago, can we ask the GLBT community to support us and in the same breath say "I'm not GAY!" like it is a bad thing? If we disassociate ourselves from the community, would you be more willing to fight for what you think you should be entitled to?

Beautiful point, and very timely given all of the "I'm not gay but..." posts around right now. Wait, those are pretty much ever-present. Anyways, I could care less if anyone thinks I'm gay and should they engage me in conversation and that comes up, I'd just show off my wedding ring.

Willing to fight for what? What kind of "support" do you want? What do you think you're "entitled to" that you haven't already got? AFAIK, it's not illegal to CD in Denver, so can you explain what you're talking about here?

Such a ray of sunshine.

How about the right not to be victims of physical violence? That'd be a good start.

[Jenny Brown]

Such a ray of sunshine. How about the right not to be victims of physical violence? That'd be a good start.

Whatever, it's a valid question.
What do you think you are "entitled to"? Protection against physical violence? Anyone anywhere could be subject to physical violence, not just you. What exactly do you "want"? CD-ing isn't against the law. What do you need to "fight for"? Please explain.

[Sherry-Stephanie]

One has to be in some sort of community and I think it's a safer bet that being in the gay community for me is where it's at....I'm not going to be looking for a straight understand gg lady to accept my quirks anytime soon and more thna likely never since odds are I won't see another 10 years here on tis rock... that's just the way it is.....I hope I ahve better luck being me there than I've had so far in my former enviorment...but that's just me at this moment..who knows....

[Noxvictum]

Well, if there aren't enough of us in LGBT groups to prove our support, then there's something wrong there. I would think it's because we're generally more gaurded about who we are. Not that I can prove anything... We're all in the same spectrum of defying gender roles, with as many points on the spectrum as there are people.

[KimberlyS]

.....this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

This same thing hit me awhile back. I use to end a description of my self as saying something about not being gay. Until one day it hit me how bad that sounded. I have worked on changing how I describe myself to include hetro some where in the middle of the description only if I think it is needed. Otherwise I have just started leaving it out. I have some good gay and lesbian friends and agree we do not need to be making it sound like a bad thing.

kim
joe in a skirt

[kellycan27]

No, this is a question on how we expect the LGBT community to support us in getting more respect and rights and then so many of the posts make a point that they are not gay and want nothing to do with being associated with the gays.

So in honor of those 7 foot tall Drag Queens who didn't throw shoes but threw bricks (stole that from a radio spot) 40 years ago, can we ask the GLBT community to support us and in the same breath say "I'm not GAY!" like it is a bad thing? If we disassociate ourselves from the community, would you be more willing to fight for what you think you should be entitled to?

I think that maybe, just as in our own community there are going to be those people in the LGBT community who hold predjudice. I don't believe that the vast majority of the LGBT community has any kind of problem with crossdressers one way or another. I don't know if all of the "I am not gay" disclaimers would really have an effect on us as...who sees them,except for us? I have never seen any of them standing on a street corner( dressed or not) touting their str8ness, or going on television or radio trying to spread the word. They just pop off in forums such as this, nice and safe where they can talk their talk, and stay hidden in a closet or behind an an avatar that doesn't even depict who they really are. They are not too hard to spot....loner types,no friends listed in their profiles, tend to disagree on just about everything. Their sole purpose is to spout their venom. Luckily they seem to be a very small minotiry and they usually out themselve quite quickly and seem to vanish as quickly as they appear. They are very easy to distinguish from the people who
may in fact tout their heterosexuality,but also make it perfectly clear that they don't have a problem with anyone elses preference or orientation.Live and let live. I don't think that they GLBG community would have a problem supporting these types because they can clearly be seen as tolerant. Just my opinion.. that's my story and i am sticking to it.

Kelly

[battybattybats]

Good point , at times some of the 'i'm not gay' comments over the years I've been here have been downright homophobic. I for one have supported gay-rights issues for long before I fought past my own self-denial to admit my own TGness. I have written letters in support of Gay equal rights, signed petitions in support of decriminalisation of homosexuality which contributed to the successful decriminalisation in the parts of Australia that had kept it illegal. I have also educated some Lesbian friends about transgender issues turning them from transphobic to transgender-supporting!

What do you think you are "entitled to"?

Equal rights and privileges and service and access to resources and infrastructure and representation without exception.

Protection against physical violence?

Let me rephrase that perhasp. Equal protection against violence. How about that

Anyone anywhere could be subject to physical violence, not just you.

Not at the same rates!
The risks are greater! And increasing!
Where people based on Race suffered extra violence we enacted protections specific to the increased risk to that community. Same for Religion. Same for Sex.

As we suffer according to all the stats a far greater risk (particularly for non-white out TG women) than any of those groups then by that prcedent we should also get the same protection those other groups get! The greater the risk the greater the resources of protections. That makes it equal. Rather than extra protections for a Satanist (religion) White (race) Man (sex) who has exta protections if attacked for being a man, white or a satanist we who suffer far more risk do not get these protections because we are TG!

CD-ing isn't against the law.

It is in some countries! In fact you get executed and/or tortured for it in some!

In my state in Australia: New South Wales, the legal antidiscrimination protections cover only Transsexuals, not crossdressers, because of the way the law defines Transgender! I can be kicked out of shops and malls and even libraries for crossdressing. I could be fired from a job for crossdressing. I could be kicked out of a school or education institution for crossdressing. Because the anti-discrimination legislation only covers transsexuals so it's legal to discriminate against crossdressers (and Goths!) And the Transsexuals here unlike race and religion are not protected by the anti-vilification legilsaltion! They also suffer a great deal of health-system and police discrimination and Intersex suffer what is often worse.

And we have no bill or charter of rights in this state or at the federal level (I've been working on the latter) to try and fall back on. no freedom of speech! No freedom of expression!

[tracijae]

Crossdressing is something different, isn't it? It is a desire most of us felt at a very young age. Some of us before sexuality or puberty. Sexual orientation is not really the issue. A desire to feel feminine, however is the issue. Many of us grew up coveting our sister's freinds clothes...and the freind as well. While we as a society become more accepting of all sexual orientations, crossdressers live in the grey area. Accepted by no one living in the black-and-white-straight or gay world.

[AmandaM]

I'm not gay.

[Jenny Brown]

They just pop off in forums such as this, nice and safe where they can talk their talk, and stay hidden in a closet or behind an avatar that doesn't even depict who they really are.

Not everyone on this forum is out to prove or "tout" something. Some are here, just like you, to share their opinion. And at the end of the day, no matter what anyone says, that's all it is. An opinion.

[kellycan27]

crossdressers live in the grey area. Accepted by no one living in the black-and-white-straight or gay world.

Personally I don't believe that that is completely accurate. From my experience i find that the vast majority of society doesn't really care one way or another...too wrapped up in their own little lives to bother much with us. As I mentioned before, there are going to be the detractors, those are the ones who spue their poison because they can't accept someone's being different. Everybody is always complaining that they are lumped together,but in making statements like this are we not just as guilty? I think that if you took a poll of those who are out, and those who are not you'ed get a much different opinion between the groups as to how society views us. We still have miles to go, but things are changing for the better. IMHO, fear of the unknown does us more harm than so called society. Read the threads in regards to those who finally develope the nerve to venture out and see what they say...

Not everyone on this forum is out to prove or "tout" something. Some are here, just like you, to share their opinion. And at the end of the day, no matter what anyone says, that's all it is. An opinion.

Very true Jenny, But on the other hand...some are, and some do.

[Teri Jean]

Lori,
When I joined this forum I wanted everyone to know I was not gay but soon realized that it's not the issue. When I told my nephew I was crossdressing, he is gay and has a wonderful partner, he said he thought it was wonderful and was so supportive. He never asked about sexual preference. Having said that I would have to echo the thought that there will be those who try to harber misguided feelings in all houses.
Will I change my sexual desires? Who knows, because I sure don't but if I do it is my business and not the general public.

Huggs Keli

[Marissa Anne]

What is the big deal? Gay, lesbian, bi...so what?

OK, but I get the general point here: the claim is that there are some people who are TG who don't feel comfortable about sex between two people of the same gender, is that it?

If that's the case, I expect that its an anomaly, and that anyone feeling that way should take time for significant introspection to figure out exactly why they feel that way, until such point as they reach the conclusion that it doesn't matter.

If someone wants to make the point that the T part of GLBT isn't necessarily related to sexual preference, then fine. But that's an academic point really. From the posts I've read, the majority of crossdressers on the forum consider themselves "not gay" which I interpret to mean "prefer women as sexual partners". OK, so at the same time, most crossdressers I've seen post here often refer to their female persona roughly equal to their male persona.

As I describe myself to myself at this moment in time, I have a discrete male and female personality neither of which I'm willing to part with. I'm in a monogamous 17-year marriage to a woman, and there's no reason or desire to change that.

So what part is gay and what part is hetero? How do I decide which is which? If I propose that I'm "not gay", what does that mean? What part of me loves my wife and what part doesn't? The answer is all of me loves my wife. So if that means my female persona is gay, then so be it.

As for mtf-tg/cd or whatever you want to call yourself, I highly doubt that there are many that have not contemplated, much less excited by the possibilities of having their female persona be made love to by a man. If you're "grossed out" by that concept, let me suggest that you don't knock it until you've tried it.

Bottom line: stop worrying about labelling yourself and enjoy life. If you've got some religious requirement preventing you from accepting non-hetero lifestyles, there's still time to stop going to the church you're at and start being spiritual in your own way instead of listening to someone else's drivel.

Marissa

[Lorileah]

Willing to fight for what? What kind of "support" do you want? What do you think you're "entitled to" that you haven't already got? AFAIK, it's not illegal to CD in Denver, so can you explain what you're talking about here?

How about the right to be employed and keep your job when you are a TG person (still isn't a law). How about being treated as a human (don't give the BS that that already happens even in the law enforcement community). How about changing people's illogical ideas about how TG's are perverts or clowns. We can't do that when there is a stigma attached to being TG (don't tell me there isn't). But when we go out we are victims of hate and vilification.

What kind of support do I want? How about we put a stop to the stereotypes that are perpetuated by the media. The type of stereotypes that ethnic groups no longer allow in movies or television. The type of stereotype that portrayed June Cleaver 50 years ago. The kind of stereotype that says certain religious group are all a certain way (ok that one has re-arisen recently but with a different religion).

The last ENDA did not cover TG's because even Barney Frank said he could not get enough support and adding TG's would have sunk the bill before it even got to the president's desk.

What do I want? I want the ability of even the most closeted here to be able to stand up and say "I wear dresses, so what?" to the world. We cannot get that by throwing our hands in the air and doing what you do. Not giving a damn and saying "we can't do that why waste your time?"

I don't mind a devil's advocate but you just don't even care. You like the status quo. Well status quo is never good enough. If we remain complacent we will wither and die. We become victims of a herd mentality. If life is so good as you seem to think it is, why then do so many people here end up divorced. Why do teenagers who are questioning why they do this consider suicide? Why do some succeed in suicide because they believe everyone is like you and no one will help them? Why do people fear loss of job and family if they "come out"? Do you ever wonder how many people here are in severe depression resorting to alcohol or drugs? Do you ever wonder how many consider suicide because they feel like they cannot be accepted in society?

What do I want? I want to be able to walk down the street and not have teenagers taunt me (see Deb's post last week about that). I want to be able to live my life as a TS and not have some jerk kill me and then claim it was some sort of "rage". Many places in the US still use that arguement. Denver is a big pond. TG's can and do function here with less hassle but in BF middle America they can't.

It is not just laws we want. Laws are broken every day with little or no consequence. Most of what I have listed above hasn't even occurred for the race, creed, color people of this land. So we should let them fight the fight and glean the rewards?

Too much to ask?