Sadness over two women competing

[Tamara Croft]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation.

Just what right do you have telling a person on this board that their wife doesn't love them, because they can't accept Joannes crossdressing? And then you go on to be even more insulting saying she's only there basically for comfort... what comfort is that then? The wife is miserable, Joanne is miserable, but don't EVER tell a person on this board that their wife does not love them, that's a vile thing to say.

The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves.

Sure and I'm sure the other 32 thousand members on this board will agree with that ridiculous statement of fact... NOT! Sounds like you're in pink fog to me

Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

There is such a thing as too much of it, Joanne has already stated it's taking over her life... you know what that's called? PINK FOG!!!!

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.

Well I'm sure glad you don't work with any of these members here, you'd have them all breaking up their families, just so they can dress up like woman and feel free... and comparing it to domestic abuse, excuse me for saying, but are you completely ignorant to what domestic abuse actually is?

Layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality.

What a load of crap, what kind of person are you? You're living in cuckoo land, you can't tell people this kind of thing, you're making mountains out of mole hills, you've probably split up numerous families with your bullshit.

Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

Victim? Seriously? Are you insane?

So it boils down to this, Joanne is a victim of abuse in your eyes, because the wife won't accept her taking over her husband 24/7... do you actually realise how stupid that sounds? Please DON'T ever counsel ANYONE on this board, you are not qualified to do so and you are absolutely lost in PINK FOG... not to mention insane!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joanne, you really have got yourself in a bit of a pickle and I believe that the pink fog has got you by the short and curlies... You need to ask yourself this, do you want to live 24/7 or just be Joanne sometimes? What do have to lose by becoming Joanne 24/7? Can you live without your wife? can your wife live without her husband? can you not compromise with her? and finally, who does your wife speak to about all of this? anyone?

[avrillunge]

I'll say it again..................WOW!

These two pages have been such an education about you all who have posted and the thread issue itself.

Thank You!

Av

[dawnmarrie1961]

JoAnn, those feelings of "being alone" and sadness are sometimes the price we have to pay. Everything comes with a price. That's why it is important that you be a smart shopper and decide exactly what you want before you purchase. That way you won't regret you choice.

Remember. In Life there are no REFUNDS! Sorry about that but that's just the way it is.

Shop wisely.

[Miranda-E]

So it boils down to this, Joanne is a victim of abuse in your eyes, because the wife won't accept her taking over her husband 24/7... do you actually realise how stupid that sounds? Please DON'T ever counsel ANYONE on this board, you are not qualified to do so and you are absolutely lost in PINK FOG... not to mention insane!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

[shesadvl]

JoAnne just my worth...but you really seriously need to think this carefully far be it for Any of us tell you what to do.... but give some guidance and advice I guess.... the other GG's and some of the other MtF members have also given some sound advice....

1. Do you want to be single and loose everything...to be joanne 24/7.., become totally miserable...because you made the wrong decision...
as misery is optional (or from some CD'ers stance be happy)....
or
2.... You dont know what you have until its gone....but only You can decide....or make that ultimate decision on which path to walk or take.......

if you dont seriously communicate with your wife then Joanne......
do some real serious thinking.... because as I see others have said... it will be costly......
also as I have said above "You dont know what You had untill its gone"

do you want to go to that end of things....but only you can decide if the cost is worth it.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours that you have to choose...

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

Mranda have You ever lived in an abusive relationship yourself???

[Sarah...]

JoAnne, it's a brave thing you have done. Posting here about the junction you've arrived at with your SO and considering the options moving forward takes some guts and is also a sign of a need of some serious help.

As such, I would suggest getting some serious help. From a professional who is able to look objectively at your position and who is able to connect with you both to help you both arrive at a solution that meets your needs. There are plenty of views here on the forum but not a lot of impartial objectivity.

There are examples of people who can stay with their partners and be fulfilled. There are examples of those who had to leave their partners to be fulfilled. It is not a universal truth that the breakdown of a long term relationship is bound to leave both people in a state of misery or having lost "everything". Sometimes there is everything to gain. However sometimes the opposite is true.

I hope you and your wife can make a decision that suits you both. Each of you has the right to live your life in the way that provides the best outcome and, as you are doing, all the options need to be considered - but do it together and do it with an appropriate professional.

Sarah...

Mranda have You ever lived in an abusive relationship yourself???

I suspect that it is not necessary to have experienced an abusive relationship in order to counsel those who are suffering that way. As far as I'm aware a good people-centered therapist will be able to counsel effectively without personally experiencing every condition that s/he is presented with by his/her clients.

Sarah...

[Jennifer Cox]

JoAnne, I find myself in a similar situation and as I've yet to resolve my issues, I wouldn't dare to give you any advice. Just to say I feel for you and wish you all the best for the future whatever you may decide.

Jen.

[GaleWarning]

As one who has received good counselling in the past, not on CDing but on another aspect of my own personal life ... I believe that a good counsellor does not offer the client their own point of view, ever. Your comment, Miranda, re Joanne's wife not loving her is merely your opinion. And I feel that it is not a very learned one at all. (My opinion, as someone in a CDing relationship).

Nor does that counsellor ever pass judgement on any aspect of their client's situation. You judged Joanne's wife, Miranda. From a professional point of view, you were out of line.

I do not think I would be confident having you, Miranda, counselling me.

Another thing ... this forum is NOT your workplace, Miranda. You need to heed Tamara's warning NOT to get into counselling mode at any time in any thread.

One last thing ... if you believe this is a toxic place, Miranda, I think you should leave. This is a place for all forms of SUPPORT for CDs, TGs etc. Your posts on this thread, IMHO, stand alone in their unhelpfulness.

[CrissyBlair]

Hi JoAnne,

Do you love your wife? Does she love you? If so my advise to you is to find middle ground. My wife and I decided that our love and marrage was more important then me cross dressing. After a while, she learned I was the same person either way. She doesn't "like" me doing it and all things being equall, I would to all the time if I could. We've learned to balance time to leave room for Crissy and time for me to be her husband. I've also learned how to read the situation for when she NEEDS me to be the man she married, and not Crissy. In my opinion; a good marrige is about loving one and another and fullfilling eachothers needs.

Good Luck JoAnne,

On another note; if people had the right to poke eachothers eyes out for there opinions, beliefs, or 2 cents..... we would all be blind.

[Sheila]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

Sweetie .................... I have been the victim of abuse ............ so I feel amply qaulified to discuss it and trust me ................. Abuse it can be but on very very small scale and the abused would still be the abused even if they did not crossdress .................... and I suppose you are now here to "SAVE" the poor abused ............... Grow up ......... as many wifes are living in fear as their partners ............... and for the damned same reason as each other ............ what the big bad world will say when they find out ........... sometimes justified sometimes not .............. do not go blaming it on the TG's partners ............ who also happen to include males .............. or are you saying that males don't abuse their partners cos I see you only refered to wives (genetic women .......... was that deliberate or a mistake!!!!!!!!! )

And if you damn well think that this is a disguised support site for the so's (wifes in your example) then you really are crazy ................ have you any frigging idea how few of us are, and the majority of us here are actively supporting our partners, there are a few who struggle, but for gods sake there the TG's themselves struggle with this .......

I feel sorry for the couples you are counselling (couples as in you are counselling the tg who has a partner) if you are really believing the crap you have written ................... in my opinion and experiance (I have been in therapy) counselling is for the person/s themselves to be able to explore their issues and be helped to find their own solutions not fed by their counsellor ............ and I am currently near to ending a counselling course ....... 2 more weeks to go

[Deborah Jane]

JoAnne, i really think you need to spend time getting to the root of all this with your wife. She supports you as you've said yourself, but don't forget support is a two way street in a relationship!
The two of you really need to decide where you're going from here, only you two can decide the outcome between you.

Miranda-E
What exactly is your problem with SOs? Supporting or otherwise
They aren't all as bad as you seem to think, Jeeze i'd hate to think of the end result of someone coming to you for counselling

[DinaMature]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation.
How can anyone here make such a blanket statement about another's situation???


The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves.
Put down the self delusion and step away. Others get flamed for suggestions that selfishness is too much in play and then I read this.... we share our lives and CD impulses often don't always fit in, not too mention the fog itself can be overindulgent by it's very nature. I'm shocked you can even say this.



Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

If she moved out and instead let her 'twin' brother take her place for measured periods of time, would that be ok? JoAnne's partner is supposed to ACCEPT her partner by advancing degrees become someone else? Our partners, especially those of long standing, are taking on a lot to be accepting of this "difference" we on the forum share... to demand that they accept a complete conversion to someone else is really asking a lot, imho

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.
Is there a more useless a contribution ever posted?

OMG Sorry, but I am really taken aback by this post.
Joanne, I will join others and suggest you ignore this tirade .

I haven't read all the suggestions others have put here but I will ask, do you have hobbies or activities outside the house? Golf, fishing, social work? Are you retired with too much time on your hands and left with contemplating what do with yourself?

I understand you wish to preserve your partnership but Jo Anne is demanding validation? I won't say supress JoAnne but perhaps if you busy yourself with something, it will quiet the conflict within.

Again just my two cents worth, but I do hope you'll find usefull advice in this thread and ignore others destructive impulses.

[gender_blender]

I broke up with my last bisexual girlfriend due to issues unrelated to the topic of this thread and I live nearly fulltime female, but I felt the need to take this opportunity to express my affinity for being truthful. Perhaps break-ups over crossdressing may be reduced or elliminated by initial honesty. I love dating biological females, but would never compromise the person I am to form bonds based upon falsehood.

[Tamara Croft]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living..

Really? I feel very sorry for them, you seem to have your own ideas of what is right. So what's the divorce rate in your practice? 100%? That seems to be your answer to everything, partner not accepting = abuse, get divorced... you really are a dingbat.

But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site.

LOL!!! Seriously, there are 32 thousand members here and then some, out of that, 400 are GG's, which about 100 are active, there are about 100 FTM's of which maybe 10-20 are active... so get your facts right. If you have colleagues that find this site toxic, perhaps you and your so call colleagues should go create your own support forum and stop filling it with your own toxic bullshit. Members are free to post whatever they like, they aren't however here to counsel members with toxic waste that seems to be pouring out of your mouth. You aren't a qualified counselor here, you'd do well to remember that.

Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

Traditional abuse? oh we have 'traditional' abuse now... maybe we should have a bank holiday for that, so we can all celebrate it I think you need a counselor, would you like me to recommend one for you? You're obviously delusional, in denial, have no idea what the real world is like and you think an unaccepting partner is abusive... ok.. you really do need to see someone about that

[kimmie_gg]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

As a wife of a CDer and a new counselor, I am awfully horrified by this. This is such a judgmental statement, and you don't even know who we all are. Counselors should always support marriage, and even if the client does come to a conclusion that divorce is imminent, that is still the client's decision, not the counselor.

[DinaMature]

You're obviously delusional, in denial, have no idea what the real world is like and you think an unaccepting partner is abusive... ok.. you really do need to see someone about that

Thanks for stepping in... it's nice to see when the Mods are on the job and watching out for the communal good.

/slapdown!!

[ReineD]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living.

Miranda, if you limit your counseling to abuse issues, you might consider that you've developed tunnel vision and are incapable of seeing anything other than abuse in marital issues. Also, if you counsel members of the TG community, I question your ability to be objective. Your post was full of bitterness and anger and I wonder if you've experienced an unhappy relationship that would lead you to have such a severe opinion of GG partners? I would take some time to examine this before counseling anyone else. You could cause a great deal of damage. If a patient is emotionally unstable and is unable to handle the way you see things, the therapy could lead to suicide.

Have you considered counseling for yourself?

--------------------------

JoAnne,

Would you mind being more specific? You've made general statements and it is hard for me to determine where the balancing point might be. I'll go through your paragraphs one by one.

What exactly are your wife's boundaries that you are trying to live within? Is it dressing at home vs. going out? Or if you dress just at home, is there a specific amount of times per week she feels comfortable with, or does she ask you to not dress in front of her?

When you say you would like to spend the majority of your time dressed, is this living femme full time and doing everything in public (outings, errands, hobbies, working in the yard, etc) you now do in guy mode, or would you mostly dress at home and go out to places you feel safe in?

When your wife said you are living in a dream world, what is she referring to exactly? Do you believe you pass and she doesn't? Is she embarrassed or afraid, for you or herself? Is she concerned about what people will think and you do not share her concerns?

When your wife said all you do is focus on JoAnne ... do you spend anytime together doing things when you are dressed, or is your time dressed spent online shopping or TG sites, trying out new looks, makeup etc? Or is the dressing something she cannot wrap her mind around, not even if you dress once per week? What would be her attitude towards you dressed if you should cook a meal together and chat over the dinner table, then watch a favorite movie together while snuggling on the sofa?

The money ... it is hard to gage since I do not know your financial circumstances, but are you spending money on clothing now that is needed elsewhere, or that was spent on leisure activities for you both? For example if you used to vacation together, or buy a new car every X number of years, or dine out frequently, is this no longer possible because of your dressing needs? Can your wife spend an equal amount of money for her own personal needs, or does she simply resent any amount you spend on JoAnne?

And last, are there any other issues in your marriage outside of the CDing and would you wife agree with you? Do you enjoy spending time together, or do you each have your own separate activities and friends?

If you can tell us the specifics, with everyone's help you may be able to conclude that the divide between you and your wife is not as great as you perceive it to be. It is difficult to be objective when in the pink, but I'm sure lots of CDs here have gone through this and can offer valuable advice.

If you will answer these questions, I will feel better about giving you my opinion as to whether you might be happier in your marriage or alone.

[Shelly Preston]

Oh I'm very qualified, I do abuse counceling for a living. But I was warned before coming here by colleagues about the toxic atmosphere towards the idea of TG/cd people breaking free and expressing themselves with complete freedom to be who they are and that is was really a support page for controling SO's under the guise of a TG'Cd support site. Like I said I see the same patterns and behavior in traditional abuse and unaccepting spuose severyday and TG/CD are particularly vulnerable to it.

Well nice to know you arrived on the forum with an open mind Miranda

I am sad to say I can believe your work in the counselling field

Some of the things you have said are almost beyond belief

Good Luck Joanne I hope you and your wife can find a solution to suit you both

[SoJill]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

Could we turn this around and get the same response?

he doesn't love you as a person, he loves the comfort of the situation. There is no such thing as pink fog denial, its a term used to deny gg spouses their true selves in normal financing/budgeting. Would he accept you putting similar restraints on his day to day life and personal expression?

When talking with gg spouses that have "unsupporting" TG/CD's I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. GG spouses are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

I am no way a victim of my husband or he of me.... Normal marital problems we have, but to place it all on the CD or GG spectum is a disservice to all happily working marriages within this same scope. To make a marriage work, it takes two. Get to talking....the only way to work it out is compromise.... would dear hubby like me changing my last name because that is who I am? it was my given name...get the point?

[TGMarla]

Ummm.....aren't we helping JoAnne?

[Jodi]

If your only motivation is for dressing freedom, think twice. Divorces are not nice. Hell has no fury like a woman scorned. Especially if her lawyer is a barracuda. Most all divorces can be very costly. The lawyers are the only ones that come out on top. The longer that you have been married, the more that you can expect to give up in the property settlement. You could end up with barely a shirt on your back and surely nothing left to allow you to dress. There is no justice in any divorce, and if it should prove to be a nasty one, you will understand what I mean.

I speak from personal experience. There is no such thing as an amicable divorce, especially when the lawyers get involved. The lawyers do what is called lawyer games and the whole time they are running up the bill. It is not uncommon to have a legal bill of $25,000 or more on each side, and you just might end up paying her legal bills along with your own.

Think twice before you go the divorce route.

Currently, I am very happy living alone. We are both happier today. I am living well, but I can tell you, she is living significantly better today than I am because of what she got on the property settlement.

Jodi

[Josie M]

Ummm.....aren't we helping JoAnne?

Thank you Marla

JoAnne, I don't know if I can add to what has already been said but, it's a sad thing when a relationship dies. If it ultimately turns out that this was just you choosing JoAnne over your wife, then it's likely that you will someday miss your wife and resent JoAnne for it.

The "pink fog" will come and go. Such things always seem to go in waves (at least for me anyway). At least give it a little time before doing anything irrevocable....and maybe you and your wife should really talk about this.

[SoJill]

Not intending to help one side or the other, just seems you could add "x" into the spot you place TG/CD or spouse. Compromise for each other, compassion for one another, listening to one another. If your not happy, find a compromise you BOTH can live with. If you both can't compromise, which means communication between two people, no one will be happy. No two people are going to agree on the same issue every time and one person can't be right all the time. We all have free will. Every action creates a reaction. But we are only a victim if we choose to be. And again, every action causes a reaction, good or bad. I only wish we would stop finger-pointing and start loving and accepting one another. I don't have to agree with all that is said, tis the reason I just hypothetically reversed the language. I have been told by a CD that I would not stay with my husband long, I would leave him, that they all leave (he found out I was new to the CD world). I didn't even know this person. I am not blaming anyone else for the actions of this one person, I knew this person was an idiot after speaking to him for a few minutes. To be accepted, you have to be accepting.
The ramblings are mine, and mine alone. Not wanting to offend anyone, just wanted two sides seen. Exit stage left!

[GaleWarning]

Both JoAnne and Miranda are conspicuous by their silence.
I think the posts on this thread have been helpful to both ...

JoAnne is hopefully weighing up her options and thinking things through very carefully ... I know I went through immense pain when I was in a similar situation. BUT SHE NOW KNOWS WHAT SHE STANDS TO KEEP OR LOSE.

Miranda ought to be pondering her whole life. My counsellor made it clear that he, too, had to undergo counselling on a regular basis, just to stay sane in his line of work. I do hope that Miranda will realise the need for her to seek professional advice.

I wish both of them the very best. May they both know that we are here for them, to support them as best we can.

[Miranda09]

Ummm.....aren't we helping JoAnne?

That's what I thought! Seems like this discussion has gone off on a tangent!!!!!