Sadness over two women competing

[JoAnne Wheeler]

Sisters: I am in a quandry again - when I think about divorce so I can dress when I want to and live as JoAnne when I want to, I think about so many of you who are divorced or are unhappy with your present situation. I have read the threads that you have posted about being sad; being alone; just plain unhappiness.

Yes, I have also read about those who have gone out on their own and seem to be doing alright. Do you wish that you were still married or had a SO in your life ?

I have also read about you Sisters who are so fortunate to have spouses or SO's who love you and accept you as you are with no strings attached - you make me so envious.

I am trying to live within my Spouse established boundaries. I am unhappy limited being confined within those boundaries. I do not want SRS. I would like to spend the majority of my time living as JoAnne (or at leasat a lot more than I do now)

My Spouse tells me that I am living in a dream world - she says that all I can focus on is JoAnne - I suppose I am guilty to some extent

I really do not want to be alone and unhappy - at present, I seem to be married and unhappy.

Am I living in the Pink Fog ? JoAnne has blossomed within the last year - maybe too much, I don't know. As JoAnne has blossomed, my marriage has suffered.

In fact, I seem to be stuck in that gray area of not knowing what to do.

I have read where many of you have opined that marriage comes first. But if you are so deep in the Fog that you have nothing to give, what do I do ?

How do you get out of the Pink Fog ? JoAnne is pounding on one side of me and my Spouse is pounding (and about fed up) on the other side of me.

JoAnne wants to express herself. My Spouse says that I have spent way too much money on JoAnne the past 18 months. My Spouse says that I spend too much time thinking about JoAnne.

I have tried in the past to keep JoAnne under control, but the "bitch" has run wild.

What can I do ? I know that if I wind up all alone that I could be even more unhappy, and yet I have to live (only existed right now) with these two women arguing for my time.

Hate to bother you dear Sisters on a Monday morning, but this is on my plate and you are the only ones I can spill out my guts to.

JoAnne Wheeler

[Miranda09]

Hi JoAnne. Not sure how much advice I can give but what I could say is try to remember that you have loved ones who need as much time as your fem self. I have observed that many tend to get so wrapped up with their fem selves that they forget about their SO's and others who might be affected. No one can tell you how to divide your time. That's something only you can address, but it sounds like you have an accepting wife and I think she deserves as much time and attention as JoAnne. Hope this helps a little.

[Di]

JoAnne, I worry if you make the decision to be alone so you can be JoAnne whenever you want...that will leave you feeling empty, sad and very lonely.
I wish you could find a balance where you both are happy.
Remember this......even though your wife is not as accepting as you may want...she is accepting and others would love to have WHAT YOU HAVE

[TGMarla]

Ask yourself this question, JoAnne: Other than simply being able to dress and look like JoAnne, and feel the simple comfort of being when you are having JoAnne time, what benefit does she give to you? Are you able to function normally as JoAnne? Can you go about your everyday business as JoAnne? Are your relatives okay with it? I guess I'm saying that even with your wife no longer in the picture, you still have only conditional freedom with JoAnne, unless you declare yourself and transition. It's still a world with boundaries within which you will have to live. And you will have that somewhat expanded jail without someone with whom you have invested a large part of your life. Here's another question: Is the JoAnne thing the only real sticking point with your relationship with your wife? If it weren't for JoAnne, would you still be having problems with each other?

If the only real benefit you derive from JoAnne is a sense of well being, and the only real problem with you and your wife is JoAnne, then you will not be happier divorced and alone. Your task is to strike the happy medium, whatever that is, so that you can have both in your life. Always remember that your wife has a good point: she didn't marry JoAnne; she married you. And she doesn't necessarily like JoAnne, and probably doesn't want her around.

I know that I'd like for my own wife to accept Marla - lock, stock, and barrell. But that's not likely, especially when she learns just how far I've taken Marla. That would be a load for any woman. I also know that if the roles were reversed, I'd be pretty uncomfortable with the situation. I'd not like it if my wife were parading around looking like a man, nor would I like it if I were she, and my husband were running around looking like a woman. So I understand her discomfort with it all. It goes far beyond simple crossdressing. And crossdressing at this level can be (and often is) a very selfish endeavor.

I often think, "I could be Marla lots more, and be not so hidden if only my wife weren't in the picture!" But I'd also be very lonely, and I know that I don't do so well all on my own. I'm better (way better!) with her than without her.

So get out your scale, dear. You have some weighing of your situation that you need to do. And clear up the fog when you do it, because you need to be thinking clearly when you reason all this out.

[karynspanties]

Well for me, and this is not for everyone and it's just my but I strongly believe it is better to be single and unhappy then married and unhappy.
If my wife ever told me to scale it back or to just plain stop......I contact a laywer and end the marriage. I know this sounds cold and uncaring, but you only live once and you have to do it as a happy person. Why waste all of that time being miserable? Makes no sense. Maybe you will find an accepting partner right away.....maybe it will take a few years, or maybe you will never find one at all. But atleast you can live as you see fit, not someone elses way. Again, this is how I feel. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of this station.

[Kimmy55]

As for someone who was seperated from my wife 1 yr ago somewhat due to my being Kimmy and somewhat as to the fact we both had different goals we wanted to fill in our later years I can tell you it does get lonely.We still talk,e-mail,etc from time to time but we have both said that we do get lonely on occasion.She tolerated Kimmy for years and then decided she wanted time to be by herself,which after 30 yrs I can understand.She also knew that I was happier when I was dressed and she wanted me to be happy.There is no common ground and each situation is different.For me I am happy and she says she is,but we do get lomely.

[Diane Elizabeth]

Dear JoAnne, What you stated is almost exactly how I feel. If you stay together with JoAnne between you and your SO then how many people are unhappy. By the same token how many will be unhappy if you are single. there is no way to predict the future results of ones actions now. Maybe everyone will be happier and maybe not. Which ever route you go there will always be your "sisters" here to lend an ear and support. But it is your life that you have to live to the best of your ability. This advice comes from one that can't heed to their own words. I now will shrink back into the closet. Best wishes with your journey. Dy len

[Angel.Marie76]

JoAnne, I don't remember if in another thread something like this has been mentioned, but what about marriage counseling?

My take on this situation is that you both have something to place before the 'judge' if you will, and you're left to give and take until that balance of power can be made. Unfortunately, like everything else in this world, relationships are both happiness and sacrifice. I myself haven't had the best luck finding that balance of energy and give and take.. I've tried to make the sacrifices and it seems like I've always not been repaid in appropriate balancing ways.

A good therapist might then tell you that, gee, I guess you've not made appropriate or 'good' decisions then in regards to your original mediation, and if you wish to correct the situation then you might need to revisit your original balancing conversation and move from there. Of course I'm no certified professional, and my words might be fodder for the shredder by all means. I do wish you the best of luck, the voice of JoAnne /I KNOW/ only from listening to Angel now for the past year, can be so loud it's deafening, and can stir a fog the likes of which can be almost too difficult to walk away from. Based on what I know of you from being on here, at least you have the ability or strength to step aside from 'her' and continue to life your life as a man at times. You should look at that strength and determine from there, if that strength is the same as strength of your love for your wife.

I might weigh these aforementioned variables with one thought in mind, while understanding that this is from the perspective of a TG who's been 'coming out' to everyone: (Some of this is from a therapists perspective for the record)

When fighting the battle of knowing who you are, and BEING who you are or who you want to be, the rest of the world, in whatever perspective it might have, looks on. As those people around you learn about JoAnne, they will have their own perspectives as to how they feel about her. Some will be good, some will be bad. Once you let it be known that JoAnne exists, then you have to accept the reality that there are some in this world that will not accept her existence. You must deal with those interactions every day. In the case of someone who'd come out to anyone and everyone because it is their only path, there will be some gains and some losses, there is nothing that one can really do to control it. In your case, perhaps you've only come out to your wife as a CDer; Kudos to you for the strength to do so. You must keep in mind that she is just another part of the peripheral world around YOU. If you continue down a particular pathway, it will be your wife that will be the casualty that you must be able to turn away from, and be strong enough to not look back. If the gain of JoAnne's near F/T existence is not worth the loss (and it is only you that can make that determination), then you must not let her blind you with her fog.

[Amy Lynn3]

I agree with karyn. I left my wife a year ago and I have been the happiest I have ever been in my life. The cding had nothing to do with the seperation, but why remain in a marriage when you are unhappy ? I stayed too long.
Just a comment about women and being alone. I joined a few online dating sites and you can find all the women you want and many will be happy to have your femme side in the relationship. If you have time and want to, you can met as many ladies per week as you want. I set my limit on two per week. I set my qualifications on the person I was looking for and after the first meeting if they did not fit my bill I moved on to the next one. Just don't waste time, and look after yourself. FYI...I think I met the woman of my dreams about 6 weeks ago. I have told her I like to dress. After spending the weekend with her I can assure you it did not hurt our relationship.
Let me ask you a question I ask myself....do you want to complete your life with it full of drama and being unhappy or do you want to be happy ? Ann Landers said it this way...would your life be better off with or without her. I know this is not the popular opinion, but its my two cents.

[AKAMichelle]

When I went to my therapist last year, I spent 1.5 hours there. Only about 5-10 minutes was spent about crossdressing. I was more adjusted about my crossdressing than I was about the rest of the issues in my marriage.

Don't leave your wife just to be JoAnne. It must be more or you will be making a big mistake. Last year while I was separated I got to dress 24/7 as Michelle. The new wore off and it was just me. You need to do some serious soul searching and find out what is really wrong in your marriage.

I got back with my wife to save on bills and get my oldest son back in college. I am miserable but made that decision to help my son. After I get him handled then I will probably make a very different decision. That of being single. Crossdressing won't be the reason.

[JulieP]

all i will say is to open up lines of communication. you have asked her to accept the fact that you crossdress and to be open minded about it. now ask her how she truely feels about it and most importantly, listen. try to come to an understanding with your wife. let's face it crossdressing can be a pretty big pill to swallow and can be very hard for some to swallow all at once. maybe she will give you one to two nights a week, maybe more maybe less, where you can dress. just think of it as a step forward. just my

Julie

[TJ Tresa]

Ask yourself this question, JoAnne: Other than simply being able to dress and look like JoAnne, and feel the simple comfort of being when you are having JoAnne time, what benefit does she give to you? Are you able to function normally as JoAnne? Can you go about your everyday business as JoAnne? Are your relatives okay with it? I guess I'm saying that even with your wife no longer in the picture, you still have only conditional freedom with JoAnne, unless you declare yourself and transition. It's still a world with boundaries within which you will have to live. And you will have that somewhat expanded jail without someone with whom you have invested a large part of your life. Here's another question: Is the JoAnne thing the only real sticking point with your relationship with your wife? If it weren't for JoAnne, would you still be having problems with each other?

If the only real benefit you derive from JoAnne is a sense of well being, and the only real problem with you and your wife is JoAnne, then you will not be happier divorced and alone. Your task it to strike the happy medium, whatever that is, so that you can have both in your life. Always remember that your wife has a good point: she didn't marry JoAnne; she married you. And she doesn't necessarily like JoAnne, and probably doesn't want her around.

I know that I'd like for my own wife to accept Marla - lock, stock, and barrell. But that's not likely, especially when she learns just how far I've taken Marla. That would be a load for any woman. I also know that if the roles were reversed, I'd be pretty uncomfortable with the situation. I'd not like it if my wife were parading around looking like a man, nor would I like it if I were she, and my husband were running around looking like a woman. So I understand her discomfort with it all. It goes far beyond simple crossdressing. And crossdressing at this level can be (and often is) a very selfish endeavor.

I often think, "I could be Marla lots more, and be not so hidden if only my wife weren't in the picture!" But I'd also be very lonely, and I know that I don't do so well all on my own. I'm better (way better!) with her than without her.

So get out your scale, dear. You have some weighing of your situation that you need to do. And clear up the fog when you do it, because you need to be thinking clearly when you reason all this out.

As I agree whole heartily with this I would like to add, When I was between marriages I was very much alone. My first wife never knew about Tresa and my second wife not only knows but accpets her. What I'm trying to add here is that being alone and dressing isn't always as good as you might think. Being alone, going to bed alone, not having someone there to share asimple laugh with over something on TV, to share meals with, to cry with (yes I believe that guys can cry especially us CDers).
Think real long and hard before you make a decision you might regret later. Please use this little bit of advise as your guide - before you make a decision try and look into the future five, ten, and fifteen years, and ask yourself this question. "What if I had done it this way?" After you have tried this then and only then should you think about making a decision.
I truely hope everything works out well for you. Hugs from TJ Tresa.

[Teri Jean]

Joanne, I had been maried for 35 years to a wonderful woman who passed two years ago in an accident. Although CDing had not become a real issue up to that point we did drift apart and I felt a lot like you in your situation. Since then I wish it was all reversed and we had those times together but at the same time I enjoy my freedom.

Only you can journey that path and you probably should get profesional help. This is something I feel is so important you need to really take your time and do it right. If it comes to a divorce so be it but marriage is something you fight hard for. I wish you both the best and hope you take all the steps before your final decission.

Huggs Keli

[PaulaJaneThomas]

It sounds like Gender Euphoria A.K.A. The Pink Fog to me.

[Lorileah]

I agree with Keli but then we have the same perspective.

Crossdressing was never an issue for me, she let me wear what I wanted within reason and our only rule was "don't embarrass me" but it wasn't always peaches and cream. On many things the grass looked greener and I can tell you there are just as many weeds over the fence. But we were comfortable and that is what worked.

But being alone is different. As mentioned above, you go all out for awhile then it becomes rote and you start doing less. I still change clothes when I get home but all the makeup and hair is not high on my list. It's the comfort thing women talk about but in reverse.

Nothing tells you more about a "new" relationship more than that dead silence when you mention something about what you like to wear with the new woman you are with. Makes you stop and think about furthering the relationship so yo don't get into the prison so many here seem to be in. In that case, being on your own starts looking good again.

Right now, being who I am takes precedence over having that constant companion but I am still new at this being on my own thing

[Miranda-E]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

[MJ]

JoAnne, I worry if you make the decision to be alone so you can be JoAnne whenever you want...that will leave you feeling empty, sad and very lonely.
I wish you could find a balance where you both are happy.
Remember this......even though your wife is not as accepting as you may want...she is accepting and others would love to have WHAT YOU HAVE

Hi Joanne,

Take it from me another one who lost my wife over dressing/trans issues. Di is right sis you don't want to be alone it is very lonely and being mj all the time now changes how i feel about dressing all the time. now I'm just one of the girls jeans slacks little to no makeup who as time for that.

I do envy those who have partners. try to find balance sis the grass may be greener on the other side but does it taste as sweet ? i wish you the best...

[Sandra]

Joanne hunni I wish you could get your SO to join here ans chat with the FAB members here, as it may just help her to understand abit more.

Di is right if you do go it alone then you might be very sad and very lonely. I do wish you both could come to a compromise that suits you both.

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

How can you say that Joanne's wife doesn't love her as a person have you met her and talked to her?


As for the pink, you try telling some of the GG here that there is no such thing, when they have been left out of the relationship, when money that is meant for general household things have been spent by the cder on stuff for them, when all they can go on about is what they can buy or wanting to do this or that.

[Samantha Kelsey]

All I can say is that I didn't love my ex wife, her drinking drove us apart. Wow what a life since. I now live with Katy who fully accepts me as the person I am. That said, if I had loved my ex then I would not have split just for Samantha.

If you really love your wife then you wouldn't even think of splitting. However I know by experience that deep love can turn to despise. Then its time to split. Of course its possible to love someone so much that you don't want them to live a miserable life playing second fiddle to a selfish imaginary woman who we are in our femme selves just because they can't accept it and we can't stop it.

[Ralph]

If my wife ever told me to scale it back or to just plain stop......I contact a laywer and end the marriage. I know this sounds cold and uncaring, but you only live once and you have to do it as a happy person.

I just don't understand where crossdressers get a reputation for acting like all we care about is ourselves.

[Sheila]

She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

There you go Joanne you got it in one ...... you heard it from one of your own ....... WE GG's are controlling peeps and you are better off without us ......... you get to live your life as you want Removed from an domestic abuser ....... ans so does your wife .......... no more hiding in the damned closet for her ............. no risk of verbal or physical abuse if people find out you are TG and she stands by you ...........

Go for it hun ............. live your life ............ be free to be you ........... and allow your wife the same freedom at one go ............... WIN WIN FOR YOU BOTH , can't ask fairer than that can oyu

[GaleWarning]

Joanne, I think that crossdressing is akin to alcoholism. You can call it quits, but the craving will never pass. Also, you will only decide to quit when your life hits rock-bottom and there is nothing anyone can do about it except you.

Unfortunately, by the time you realise that it is necessary to refrain from cross-dressing, it could be too late. Your marriage will be destroyed; your wife will be gone.

Is this what you want? Is this what she wants?

You have the power, the right and the responsibility to sit down and talk things through with your wife, now.

Things to consider ... you could very well lose all the material comforts that you have spent so many years building up, as well as your financial security. You could lose all your friends and family, including future grandchildren. You could discover only emptiness and loneliness.

On the other hand, you could lose the present killing sense of loneliness and emptiness in marriage that you talk about, which I, too, have experienced. You could decide that the risk of going it alone and the freedom to perhaps find someone more accepting to love and share life with, is worth losing everythng. Such people do exist, believe me.

Only you can decide whether to play things safe or take a risk... but know this ... anything you choose to give up will be gone for good. There will be no way back.

Blessings.

[tricia_uktv]

Joanne, not much help but only you know! If you are going to break away do you have a social network to support you? What would be the effect on the rest of your family if you did break away? Would you be lonely, but you may be able to live with lonely? Think hard before you make any move, and good luck.

[TGMarla]

:
She doesn't love you as a person, she loves the comfort of the situation. The is no such thing as pink fog, its a term used to deny people their true selves. Would she accept you putting similar restraints on her day to day life and personal expression?

When working with TG/CDs that have "unsupporting" spouses I keep hearing the same conversations and seeing the same behavior as I do when dealing with traditional domestic abuse.
layer after layer of control, isolation and hammering away at self esteem, always with a justification. TG/CDs are very vulnerable to these tactics and are almost the perfect victim for a controlling personality. Like always the key step and the only one that works in the long term is removing the victim from the situation.

There you go Joanne you got it in one ...... you heard it from one of your own ....... WE GG's are controlling peeps and you are better off without us ......... you get to live your life as you want Removed from an domestic abuser ....... ans so does your wife .......... no more hiding in the damned closet for her ............. no risk of verbal or physical abuse if people find out you are TG and she stands by you ...........

Go for it hun ............. live your life ............ be free to be you ........... and allow your wife the same freedom at one go ............... WIN WIN FOR YOU BOTH , can't ask fairer than that can oyu

One lousy post does not negate what close to two dozen others have said. All it proves is that there is an ignorant know-it-all in every crowd. And please don't take it personally, Sheila. I understand fully why all you GGs were upset at some of these postings. But like I said, it only proves the existence of one vocal minority.

Sorry to hijack, JoAnne. I already said my piece earlier.

[Elizebeth]

That's a hard post to respond to I have had the same thoughts the thing is are you unhappy about other things as well because being alone does not help you be happy. A full life makes one happy.