Why are we in this little box? A constructive look at society and wearing a dress

[sophieporter]

After seeing another thread on here, I decided to start this thread.

Right, here's the thing.
Some guys like to dress like girls.
That's it, really.
Some makup, dresses, underwear, whatever.
There's nothing to accept, no 'social norm' to consider, it's just there.
No 'taking it slowly', no 'I'll think about it', it's there, and if you can't handle it, for our sakes, let go of this whole 'but it's for girl's!' mentality.

Does anyone else get really irritated that we're forced to pretend, hide, and and make do being ourselves in shadow, because some people can't, or couldn't deal with it?

I owe so much to those TG's and GG's that have supported me in secret for so long, but the fact of the matter is, they shouldn't have to. It shouldn't matter.

Why are we in this little box?

We're here, we're different, we may be queer, and damn it to hell, we aren't going away.

Love,

Sophie

[Di]

Why are we in this little box?

You prob will not like my answer.

I think it is in most cases it's a self-imposed box.

[Sheila]

You prob will not like my answer.

I think it is in most cases it's a self-imposed box.

Spot on Di ...... nobody and nothing stops me doing what I want, so long as it ain't illegal and I want to do it, then I will give it my best shot

[sophieporter]

Spot on Di ...... nobody and nothing stops me doing what I want, so long as it ain't illegal and I want to do it, then I will give it my best shot

I thought I saw in your other post that you werre a GG, sweetpea?

[Sheila]

I thought I saw in your other post that you werre a GG, sweetpea?

I am dear and so is DI ................ but that does not stop me doing what is classed as MALE things

[sophieporter]

I am dear and so is DI ................ but that does not stop me doing what is classed as MALE things

but people dont point and laugh at you when you shop...

[Sheila]

but people dont point and laugh at you when you shop...

don't they ????? u sure about that ? sometimes I get sniggers and called names ........... don't assume just cos we are GG's we don't get some of what you get hun

[Barbara918]

but people dont point and laugh at you when you shop...

They dont point & laugh when I shop for fem clothes. But maybe thats b/c I'm bigger than they are.

[TGMarla]

I certainly can appreciate what both Di and Sheila are bringing to this conversation, but really, one cannot compare a woman's shopping experience to a man's when both are shopping for ladies' attire, especially when the man is, by societal norms, crossdressed. The box that Sophie is referring to is real, and I agree with her, I'm real sick of it.

Were I to walk into a store wearing one of my nice dresses, it would be about five or maybe six minutes (if that) before everyone in the store knew there was a man wearing a dress while shopping in the store. Even if I were shaved from head to toe, there are things about my physiology that I cannot change. My hands, for instance, are a dead givaway. I can shave them and put pretty nails on them, but I still wouldn't pass muster. My voice is also not very convincing.

If a woman were to do the same, some might comment on how she's dressed, but they ultimately would not spend a whole lot of time and effort on their critique, and they would go on about their business.

Now, in Di's and Sheila's defense, let's say I did go into that store wearing a nice dress, all shaved (hands too!) and with pretty nails on, etc.... It's likely that if I carried myself properly and with confidence and authority in myself, that others wouldn't spend more than a casual glance on me, maybe even an approving one at that. (Hey, I have some nice stuff! ) But there's still the neighbors and my wife to consider, too. The fact is, the box that Sophie refers to is embedded in the minds of everybody we encounter, and that box is telling them that what they are seeing and experiencing is wrong. They do not accept it, and it changes their opinion towards the person they are seeing. If they see a woman wearing these clothes, they approve. If they see me wearing them, they disapprove, and do so wholeheartedly to the point that they never again see me in the same light. Thus, we hide it.

That's the part that gets so frustrating.

[sandra-leigh]

Does anyone else get really irritated that we're forced to pretend, hide, and and make do being ourselves in shadow, because some people can't, or couldn't deal with it?

Sophie, while not disagreeing with anything particular you have to say, I feel the need to point out that asking things like "Does anyone else get really irritated" is not a "constructive look" as promised by the title of your thread; it is at most a "critical look". For something to be "constructive", it has to point out avenues to solutions: it has to "construct" (build), not just point out problems.

Perhaps we should not be in a box (or a closet) but most of us are. In keeping with the "constructive" part of your title, what do you suggest as a way out of this difficulty?

[decoratorpro]

Well personally, I think no one should hide who they are. I know it is easier said than done, but anyone who dresses differently should come out as who they are, to whoever. It is society who can't accept, it's not the loved ones. The reason they can't accept is because they have no knowledge about it. If there were more openess about it, people would get to know each of them, and therefore, think of it a normal thing. But then again what is normal.........anything we accept. Non-acceptance of anything we know nothing about is abnormal.

Donna(Denise)

[flic]

Reading this post got me thinking a little. It seems to me that part of human nature is to categorize and sort. It's in everyday life all around, what type of music do you like? What sort of food do you like? What nationality are you? Some brainy psychologist type suggested that we define who we are, by identifying what we are not. This sorting process inevitably leaves an awful lot of stuff which we are not,,,but which others can quite happily identify with, and this vast overwhelming quantity of information can be sorted into 'boxes' for ease of use, identification or whatever. I'm sure most of us have that moment of 'oh my gosh, what am i?'. And then that eureka moment of finding some golden nugget of information to do with the tg community,,,and thinking 'yes, i can identify', and so you inevitably sort yourself into that box. So no,,,,some people will never understand, lack of understanding brings fear, blah blah. I'm upset that i hid for so long, but the only irritation is aimed at myself. People close to me thought they knew me and i hid it from them,,,and i shoulder responsibility. So although i'm loving the 'like it or not' sentiment,,,people are entitled to their fears and their misunderstandings and their confusion and whatnot.
So there you go, my rambling, inconclusive post,,,,because sadly, there may never be a conclusion to this one!
hugs
flic xxx

[nancyish]

wow Donna! what a great saying.Nancy

[PaulaJaneThomas]

What have dresses got to do with it? 99% of the time I present as female in public I'm in jeans. Clothes are just a means to an end. That end is gender presentation. That's what (some) react against. Having a moan on the forum isn't going to change that.

[docrobbysherry]

FEAR!
We ALL have our own!

I think CDing is FUN! FEAR, is NOT FUN!

In my case, I'm protecting my family, including a young daughter, from redicule and rejection!

I READ the newspapers. I see all the BAD things that happen everyday. To regular people that HAVEN'T made themselves a Target!

And finally, I dress to please myself. If I went out, I'd have to try to BLEND IN! THAT, doesn't sound like FUN to me!

[dawnmarrie1961]

This box that you are making reference to is not a not a construct of nature. It is was instead created by the hand of man. But, as with all things created by man, it is doesn't last forever.

It wasn't to long ago that woman didn't have the right to vote and blacks were treated as second hand citizens. But time and effort changed all that.

Problem is, today's mentality, we want everything "now"! Immediately!! Post haste!!!

Problem is, also today's mentality, we want it with the least amount of effort put into it! Quick Fix! No sweat!!

The reality, which no one wants, is that any change worth while and lasting takes a certain amount of time.

How much time depends solely on the individuals who are seeking to create change and how much effort they are willing to put into it. No effort , no change!!

It also requires presence. The willingness to stand up and be counted. Which means no more hiding in the closet.

So unless a vast majority of us are willing to step into the light, take a chance and be counted, the change that we want will never happen!

Are you content with sitting in your box and gripping about what you see as injustice or are willing to do something about it?

That is the question.

[decoratorpro]

FEAR!
I think CDing is FUN! FEAR, is NOT FUN!

In my case, I'm protecting my family, including a young daughter, from redicule and rejection!

I understand that. That is what I enjoy about having a CD as a boyfriend. FUN, FUN, AND MORE FUN.

I wish I could make people understand there is no shame in Crossdressing, I crossdress every day. I wear mens pants, shoes, shirts. It really makes to no extent when people comment on things they have no idea what they are commenting about.

Donna

You hit the nail on the head there dawn.

[Miranda09]

Well, that's the arguement I usually use when discussing cross dressing. Women CAN and DO dress in whatever clothing they like and no one says a word. A guy, on the other hand, dresses in clothes of the opposite gender, and all sorts of comments/riddicule/sterotypes come out. I would love to be secure enough to go out dressed and not worry about negative reactions. I realize this puts me in a self imposed box, but as Doc has mentioned, I want to have carefree fun when I go out and not have to be on my guard or be retricted to only those venues that accept us.

[Jaclyn NM]

Let's face it, in many areas of life there are double standards, and this is just one of them. For girls to dress like guys is accepted, but for guys to dress like girls is not. Who knows why, but there it is.

[Emma England]

Does anyone else get really irritated that we're forced to pretend, hide, and and make do being ourselves in shadow, because some people can't, or couldn't deal with it?

We're here, we're different, we may be queer, and damn it to hell, we aren't going away.

Love,

Sophie

I have taken part of your post to answer.

Hiding in shadows from other people non-acceptance is something I am fed up with.

To deny your true self because of the discrimation of others is wrong.
It is upto me to decide on my own appearance, because that is me - understand this? (sounds confusing to me!)

Sure, it won't go away. That is another reason to be your true self.

If anyone says that a guy can't dress as a girl, I always ask why not.
Until someone comes up with a sensible answer, I will continue to do so.

[sissystephanie]

Right, here's the thing. Some guys like to dress like girls. That's it, really. Some makup, dresses, underwear, whatever.

Does anyone else get really irritated that we're forced to pretend, hide, and and make do being ourselves in shadow, because some people can't, or couldn't deal with it?

I owe so much to those TG's and GG's that have supported me in secret for so long, but the fact of the matter is, they shouldn't have to. It shouldn't matter.

Why are we in this little box? We're here, we're different, we may be queer, and damn it to hell, we aren't going away. Love, Sophie

Sophie, as has already been said, your title is not accurate. Your original post, which I have shortened, is not at all constructive! It is not, because you have put yourself in a box! That is not meant to be insulting, it is just a statement of my opinion. Your own attitude is all that counts, not what somebody else thinks of you! Climb out of your box and show the world the real Sophie!!

I am a male, definitely, and yes I do wear feminine clothes a great deal of the time. In fact I am totally dressed feminine as I write this. No wig and no makeup, which is my normal look. I may be different, but I sure as H*** am not Queer, and I am not going away. Well, yes I am going somewhere, to the nail salon for my biweekly manicure and pedicure! I go everywhere I feel like going dressed as a female. Do people look at me? What the heck do I care! I know who I am, and what I am. I am a crossdresser, and if those looking at me don't like that............well that is their problem, not mine!

As I said, I go everywhere dressed, as does Intertwined! Both of us, I believe, have the same attitude. We don't care!!

Be yourself, be happy, and go for it!!

[Sandra]

You prob will not like my answer.

I think it is in most cases it's a self-imposed box.

Well said Di

If people got out more then just perhaps that box would open up.

[Elle1946]

We are in this litttle box because others have placed us there. Getting out of the box is hard because of not being understood. We are men and are expected to act like men. WHY? Whos to say say that we aren't men just because we like cloths that were designed for the other sex. The Romans wore skirts and the early American politicians wore wigs. Who set the standard for what we are suppose to wear now. I remember when girls wore skirts and very seldom wore pants but now they are seldom found in skirts. Yes! This is my little soap BOX.

[PaulaJaneThomas]

Well said Di

If people got out more then just perhaps that box would open up.

For some of us, it did just that many years ago. I've been going out and about in broad daylight since the mid-eighties and in those days my attempts at make-up were more like Co-co The Clown than Co-co Chanel. But nothing bad ever happened. A 7 ton weight isn't suddenly going to descend on you as soon as you leave the house.

[sandra-leigh]

Non-acceptance of anything we know nothing about is abnormal.

While I understand the sentiment, there was a recent Scientific American article (I think it was, might have been a respectable science journal article I was reading) that briefly explored that fear of that which is different is an evolved survival characteristic.

When our distant ancestors (and not so distant for those of us whose families migrated to The New World in the last few hundred years) stuck with the tried and true, then provided their diet was wide enough to provide proper nutrition, they survived. When those ancestors tried new things, the result was either neutral, or good -- or pain and/or death. Until the advent of the scientific method to test for -known- poisons, it was a crap-shoot as to what you would get when you tried something new. And by the law of averages, if you try new things often enough and there are bad things around, you are going to find that Russian Roulette bullet. So by natural evolutionary processes, acceptance of the new until it is proven bad was bred out of us: what remained was conservatism (stay the same) together with slow change as a portion of the population risked their lives trying new things.