Crossdressed and/or transgendered?

[tricia_uktv]

Interesting question. But we are surely ourselves first and foremost. I happen to love dressing and living as a girl, but that doesn't actually make me one. I enjoy having funand being transgendered gives me the opportunity.

[Nicki B]

there must be a definat line in if you try to apear as a female full time and want to be accepted as a femal then you are crossing the lines of just being a cross dresser and starting to become a transexual.

Some of us are quite happy being both.

[Satrana]

The sex and entertainment industry may be where kathoey are most visible in Thailand - but to suggest they aren't doing anything else assumes that because they don't make a big deal about it, they are not there. For a start, I have a good friend who is a successful restauranteur - she's not out to people, so I think you're highly likely to be wrong..

Ehh? It is not about whether they make a big deal about it or not, it is what society is prepared to tolerate. The difference between Thai and other SE Asian cultures and the West is that Asians are usually OK with the principle of being TG, they are OK with you displaying this in public, but they are not OK with TGs in mainstream industry. The belief is that TGs are different from cis people, that they are far more sexually active for example. This is why they are concentrated in these types of industry because they correspond with the public's perception of what is means to be TG. Most people believe gender and sexual orientation are intertwined. This belief is persistent throughout all societies.

It goes without saying that TGs who are not out so not visible can obviously still enjoy jobs in mainstream industry and commerce.

I have lived in this part of the world for the past 15 years so I personally know the differences between the East's and West's attitudes towards TGs.

And if you buy women's clothing that is tailored to fit a male, you're still wearing that clothing as an attempt to appear female, so yes, that is transgender behavior, and it is crossdressing regardless of the fact that the garment you're wearing was made for males to wear.

Firstly only some CDs want to appear as a female, others do not and are quite happy to be recognized as a male wearing female clothing. So according to your definition, any man who would label himself as a "man in a skirt" is not exhibiting TG behavior and cannot be considered any different from a woman wearing pants.

As for this being crossdressing - that entirely depends on whether society thinks the item as being unisex or not. Before pants were deemed unisex, any women wearing them was a crossdresser. Then the fashion industry declared pants and all other male clothing unisex and now suddenly women are no longer crossdressing. Amazing!

And what about when women do wear pants deliberately to present a masculine image such as wearing a business suit for an important meeting. If a woman is deliberately invoking a masculine image does that make her a CD? but when she goes home and changes into jeans for comfort she is no longer CDing?

You cannot have it both ways. The only logical reasoning to this is to understand that women are crossdressing but society now allows this and so ignores it which means it is no longer possible to easily distinguish between women who are trying to project masculinity and those who are just following fashion or comfort reasons.

And think of this - if society declared tomorrow women's clothes were now unisex then you could no longer label yourself a CD, which apparently means you are no longer TG either.

[MissVirginia-Mae]

I am a crossdresser but someday I hope to become a woman 24/7 and thats not just dressing...I mean the whole caboodle.
I would hope by the time i am 60, I will be just another granny with grandkids

[RobynP]

I too am totally puzzled as to why some CD's take offense at being included under the transgender umbrella.

Those CDs may be wearing woman's clothing but presenting as a male. They are not trying to cross to a different gender. Since clothing is gender neutral, it makes sense. Their motivation for crossdressing is quite distinct from CDs who present themselves as a woman.

You're missing the point. When you wear women's clothing, your clothing choice is to wear clothing intended for the gender opposite your sex, and that is transgender behavior. When a female wears women's clothing, that is cisgender behavior because the clothes were intended to be worn by a female. So, crossdressing, regardless of motivation, is transgender behavior. A female wearing women's clothing patterned after men's clothing is not transgender behavior. A female wearing men's clothing is a gray area, as in American culture, it is acceptable for females to wear some articles of men's clothing, so a female wearing a men's shirt is within the boundaries of accepted fashion here,

This is where it is very easy to fall into murky waters here... To summarize... A woman wearing woman's clothing is okay. A man wearing woman's clothing is crossdressing/transgender behavior no matter what the motivation. (Is a bank robber wearing pantyhose over his head crossdressing?)

What role, if any, does motivation play? Certainly there is a distinction between crossdressing/transgender behavior and a person who identifies as a CD or TG.

If a female is wearing woman's clothing patterned after men's clothing is not TG behavior, then a man wearing woman's clothing patterned after men's clothing would be TG behavior... right?

And a female wearing men's clothing is a gray area and sometimes acceptable. For example a woman can wear a man's shirt and since it is "acceptable" would not be TG behavior. What if she is also wearing a mustache, cut her hair short, and is wearing men's pants? Still not TG?

What about a man wearing a man's shirt? Is this acceptable? Is this TG behavior? Why, of course not! Men wear men's shirts all the time! What about a man who is wearing a man's shirt but it is completely unbuttoned revealing a lacy bra underneath. The man is wearing a wig, makeup, and jewelry. Is this crossdressing/transgender behavior? It shouldn't be if a man is wearing a man's shirt... right?

Clothing is gender neutral. We do not assume the gender of our clothing because there is no gender in the clothing to assume. Only our motivation, our reason for wearing the clothes we wear determines if our behavior is CD/TG. Therefore, in the above examples our bank robber wearing pantyhose over his head is not CD/TG behavior while the man wearing a man's shirt with a lacy bra underneath is...

Robyn P.

[CindyLouWho]

Clothing is gender neutral.

Robyn P.

[SIZE="4"]I have seen this sentiment repeated throughout this thread, but it is a totally false premise. I'm not a sociologist or an archeologist, but I'm aware of enough examples to know that across cultures and throuhout history, humans universally differentiate gender with clothing. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'd guess that even in tribal cultures where women do not cover their breasts, that there are differences between mens and womens clothing. I'd venture a guess that the biblical prohibition against cross dressing has more to do with mis-representing oneself to prospective partners than it has to do with either cross dressing or homosexuality. The fact is that even today in western culture if we see a man in a dress at some distance away, we don't presume it's a man in a dress we presume it's a woman, and that goes for most if not all of us here on this forum. If clothing is really gender neutral this forum would not need to exist because there would be no such thing as cross dressing. We all dress because there is some part of our personalities that is female and needs to be acknowledged. Some of us are content to dress occasionally and in private, others need to live full time dressed as women and some of us will undergo surgery in order to acknowledge that aspect of our personality.

I'm sorry that this ambles so much, but a lot goes through my head while I'm composing and only about half of it reaches my keyboard.[/SIZE]

[RobynP]

Cindy,

Welcome to our friendly board!

I have seen this sentiment repeated throughout this thread, but it is a totally false premise. I'm not a sociologist or an archeologist, but I'm aware of enough examples to know that across cultures and throuhout history, humans universally differentiate gender with clothing. I wouldn't bet my life on it, but I'd guess that even in tribal cultures where women do not cover their breasts, that there are differences between mens and womens clothing.

I did NOT say that society uses clothing to distinguish gender. One of the functions of clothing is to show other people who we are, what occupation we perform, and even what social class we are in.

I said that clothing is gender neutral. Clothing cannot have gender. However, people can express their gender by wearing different clothing, fabrics, and colors. A man does not become a woman just by putting on a dress just as a woman does not become man putting on a pair of jeans.

The fact is that even today in western culture if we see a man in a dress at some distance away, we don't presume it's a man in a dress we presume it's a woman, and that goes for most if not all of us here on this forum.

If you see a man in a dress, then you see a man in a dress. You don't see a woman...

However, if you see a person in a dress and they look and act like a woman, then the presumption is that it is a woman.

If clothing is really gender neutral this forum would not need to exist because there would be no such thing as cross dressing. We all dress because there is some part of our personalities that is female and needs to be acknowledged. Some of us are content to dress occasionally and in private, others need to live full time dressed as women and some of us will undergo surgery in order to acknowledge that aspect of our personality.

The $64 question is that if some parts of our personality are female need to be acknowledged, why can't they be acknowledged by sewing, knitting, dance, opera, watching the Hallmark channel, or taking care of the kids? Of course these could all be done without crossdressing. So why do we need to crossdress? There are probably just as many reasons why we do what we do as there are crossdressers... Certainly, women's clothing helps us in our quest to acknowledge our feminine side. But for most of us, it is not the ultimate goal...

Robyn P.

[CindyLouWho]

[SIZE="4"]Robyn,

I quite agree thay our board is very friendly, which is why I registered and then eagerly awaited my acceptance to it. I am sorry I selected your post to quote. It just happened to be the most recent iteration of something I disagree with. Again I did not mean to single out your post and I am sorry.

Cindy[/SIZE]

[JoAnne Wheeler]

BOTH

JoAnne Wheeler