The double-edged sword

[Olivia]

So many of us are married. And, many are married to supportive wives who love us dearly. Yet, many are married to wives who love them but still won't or don't accept their crossdressing. I wonder if it's really possible to "love" someone yet still deny them the element that makes them happy or feel complete. ie. "So, if you really loved me, you'd want me to be happy." The double edge? ie. "If you really loved me, you wouldn't expect me to accept this, this, __________ (fill in the blank with your own favorite pejorative) when you know how unhappy it makes me."

I know that compromise is possible, and often the only way out of this conundrum. Yet, the question still remains. Does love mean 'I love you with all your facets!" or does love mean, 'I love you but only when you don't do that."? Has this been discussed to death already? If so, I apologize in advance. I guess we begin to deal in absolutes here; but is love really 'absolute' at that?

O

[TGMarla]

I crossdress. My wife knows it, and she doesn't like it. It has nothing to do with love. She loves me just fine. If she didn't, or if the crossdressing was a deal-breaker, she'd have left me years ago. But her disapproval of my crossdressing has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not she loves me. It's quite possible for her to love me, all the while not loving the fact that I crossdress. She doesn't forbid it; she knows she cannot do that. But she doesn't have to like it. That's not part of the deal. My wife smokes. I hate it. But I don't think less of her because she does it. So really, I think this is a rather inane argument.

[Kimmy55]

In my case it was"I Love You but only when your not dressed"So to be honest with you I guess there may be more than one kind of love.

[Olivia]

So really, I think this is a rather inane argument.

But, not so inane that you didn't reply? Thanks anyway!

[tricia_uktv]

Sadly I think its one or the other.

[kasha]

I wonder if much of the issues our SO's have is just the clothes. Perhaps it's not being honest with them before marriage? Perhaps it's the fear of being trans? Or the possibility we're just repressed homosexuals? I think there are a lot of feelings mixed up into why our SO's don't like our dressing.

[Bev06 GG]

Tee hee, not that simple honey. A friend of mine was married for a while to a drop dead gorgeous fella who was a serial adulterer. He did love her to bits and didn't want the marriage to end but she couldn't take it any more.

So how does this sound then, if you really loved me you'de let me play around with other women for a bit of fun and then come home to you every night.

Me thinks thats not very reasonable. Seriously though, alot of women hate their hubbys CDing but they love him to bits. Soo why should it come between them if both can come to some kind of a compromise. I hated my first hubbys obsession with fishing but hey it didn't ruin our marriage, that was down to other women not fish.

Kasha, some women like masculine men to look like masculine men, pure and simple. I am a supportive SO but I much prefer my fella dressed blokey cause thats what and who I fell for. The dressing is just an added extra.

[BarbaraAnn]

In my intoduction post I stated how my CD and wanting to be a woman has destroyed my marriage. No matter what I have tried to do for my wife to make her happy she finds the fact that I want to dress and be a woman very hard for her to accept. She is still with me as far as living in the same house but we really are no longer married in the real sense since there has been no kind of intimacy between us in many years. Does she love me no does she care about me yes. This is nothing in the world I would like better then to have my wife understand what I go through each and every day and for her in her heart to forgive me for who and what I am. I know after 36 years this will never happen. So we live day to day and make the best of what we can.

[mklinden2010]

Ifs, ands, and buts...

Most CDs hear, "I love you, but..." or, "I/I would love you if..."

Hearing between the lines, we - of course - hear:

"I love you but... I don't really."

"I/I would love you if... you wouldn't do that."

So, no, it's not love - it's rejecting the person and any such relationship where it's part of the deal.

I think the post is a good question and a "heads up" not to kid yourself. Unless you're hearing, "I love you and..." you've got trouble.

If you hear, "I love you and..." you're more likely to hear:

"I love you and this if fine with me."

"I love you and green is a better color for you."

"I love you and I think now would be a good time to watch a little television together."

Even this is better than many people's lives:

"I love you a-n-d I think we should split up so you can be the person you want to be/need to be without me being a bother to you. You're lovable, but I have other plans for my life. Thanks ever so much anyway - we've had fun."

"Buts" and "Ifs" just prolong the tension. "And" seems to lead to better outcomes - most of them, seems to me, more about love.

[Joanne f]

There is one thing that should go with love and that is respect , you can love someone and someone can love you but you still have to respect their point of view, who said that love would just make it easy to do as you please in the name of love , that would just be chaos

[Jessica Who]

I fully believe in marriage being a complete partnership and a constant exercise in compromise. Denying someone their personality expression is just wrong in my opinion.

While there are limits, it really infuriates me sometimes the amount of women who simply will not accept a crossdressing husband or boyfriend.

There has to be give and take on both sides and all married couples should strive for balance.

[Granny Gray]

Once more, the English language is not expressive enough. We use one word: LOVE, for many shades of affection where there might be Agape (total, all abiding absolute love), Filios (the caring for a sibling, family member, or friend within wide measure, and Eros (the sexual love of one's mate)... but is this comprehensive enough to cover such a vast subject. I think not.
Let's each delve inside ourselves and try to determine what it is we actually feel/mean when I say we love, and how much of it is CONDITIONAL. Is an totally rejecting spouse who says she loves really CONDITIONAL... is it that she loves only what she likes... And you, me, all of us who claim to love someone but .... we sure do hate that tobacco stink in her hair and on her attire?
Are we not all, or nearly all, victims and at the same time guilty of CONDITIONAL love... and one more question, when conditions are attached is it really LOVE? J

[KarenCDFL]

I don't this its a love issue at all. When I was a child my late great mom used to tell me "I will always love you but sometimes I don't like you very much. Please understand the difference."

I am married with a very loving and accepting wife so we have no issues of my dressing. But I can understand how a person can be loved but not liked. I think that the people here who have loving relationships also need to understand this thought as well. You may be loved but not liked when you dress.

[Cassiecd]

I disapprove of many things my wife does. It does not mean i do not love her dearly.

Love is unconditional

Marriage is hard work and compramise

[sometimes_miss]

You know, you can love someone, but not love everything that they like to do, or want to be involved with everything they want to do. One of my girlfriends liked to go to loooooonnnnnggggg borrrrrrinnnnnggggg poetry readings; then after they read the whole thing aloud, they'd discuss what they thought the author meant ABOUT EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN' LINE. It could have been worse; they could've been reading poetry in some obscure foreign, or god forbid, an imaginary language like Klingon or something. Still, I'd rather drill screws through my toes than go to one of those again. Or at least remember to bring a video walkman or something.

So, if I had an SO that didn't want to share my crossdressing, but was willing to let me do it on my own, I think I could understand.

[Ralph]

You know, you can love someone, but not love everything that they like to do, or want to be involved with everything they want to do.

I hate it when other people get here ahead of me and say what I want to say, better than I can say it. That's the answer right there: Loving someone isn't an automatic requirement to adore everything about them. I love my wife, but she has some personality quirks of her own that have me grinding my teeth in frustration, just as I do the same to her.

So the compromise doesn't come from which one of you has the greater love to accept the other's desires; it's a question of what aspects of each other's personality bother you little enough to just ignore it, and which ones bother you so much that you can't stand to live with those traits any more.

To get to that point, you both have to figure out your priorities. Is your relationship with your wife more important to you than 100% full acceptance of your dressing? Conversely, is her relationship with you more important to her than having a man who doesn't crossdress? Would limiting your crossdressing either entirely or partially cause you such great mental anguish that your life would be ruined (as some here have suggested)? That's where the compromise comes in... finding a place that both of you can get some of what you want while minimizing the annoyance/pain to the other.

She's not going to be able to see your needs unless you are able to communicate how unshakeable they are - if she just thinks that dressing up is something you choose to do (there's that word again) on a whim, she won't see any reason you can't give it up entirely. But if you make it clear that it is a powerful, inborn part of your personality and has been since you were {x} years old and there's no possible way you could ignore it, she is more likely going to be understand why you need at least some time to be yourself without hindrance or criticism. After that, it's just a matter of defining boundaries you can both live with. Just remember that if she's willing to back off from "No crossdressing ever", you have to be willing to respect the boundaries she does set, and never ever ever try to push past them unless she brings it up on her own. I have seen so many stories here along the lines of "I promised her never in bed, but I thought she was asleep so I went ahead..." and they all end in heartache and disaster.

Sorry, that was a lot more rambling than I usually put into a single reply. Hope it helps!

[Teri Jean]

This probably has been discussed in one way or another but it needs to be every so often. There should not be conditions with love and marriage. The other thing is marriages are dumped at a drop of the hat without any work to make it work. If all else fails then and only then should one look for a divorce.

Love Teri

[dawnmarrie1961]

Olivia,
Nothing is ever discussed to the point where rigor mortis sets in. There are always different angles to any problem that haven't been explored yet. Often that is where solutions are ultimately found. So the question is still a valid one and doesn't need to be buried, yet, in the "We already covered that" vault.

Relationship is sacred ground for women. That's where their center is. The bond that is created emotionally and physically takes a lot of strength and time to create. Women see flaws in men as things that need mending like a sock with a hole in it. A few stitches and it's as good as new. Maybe not perfect. But she fixed it and that's good enough for her. So the question gets asked. Why doesn't she just look for a man with no flaws, no imperfections? Answer is: That man does not exist. He is a fantasy construct of over read Harlequin romance novels and fairy tales. Even if he did exist she wouldn't feel comfortable with him because she sees herself everyday as not measuring up. She looks in the mirror and sees flaws, imperfections and she hates herself for them. She can't see perfect in herself so she doesn't seek perfect in others. She's looking for someone she can mold like potters clay into the "fantasy" image that was programmed into her mind from a very young age as to what the ideal mate should be. On the flip side the male is just looking for...well you already know that. So I'm not going to say it. Besides it's kind of redundant at this point. Then you have your female side. The cross dressing side that you are trying desperately to come to terms with. It should give you a unique window to look at how she feels and understand what her true fears are. Dare you have the courage to see. When you look in the mirror (dressed as a woman or not),as she does, what do you see? Does you male ego get in the way and blind you? Or do you see your flaws as she does and hate yourself because of it. If you do "Welcome to the woman's world." We are ever changing (Hair dying, style changing. makeup driven divas ) and never satisfied with what we see in the reflection.

Love is indeed a two edged sword. It cuts both ways and hurts like hell! With some conversation and understanding ,on both your parts, that sword can be blunted. It will always have two sides. As all things do. But it won't hurt so much and you both can advance in the task of building a strong foundation in your relationship realizing that even a cracked support doesn't mean and invertible collapse. It can be shored up and mended by LOVE.

Good luck.

Be safe. Be smart.

[Victoria Anne]

Olivia while you have already heard many thoughts on this issue I would like to add my own as it bares on a subject my wife and Ijust discussed. I believe that when one has found there true soulmate love has no limits with respect to Bev ,she is right cheating is a deal breaker but when one has found there true soulmate one would not be able to be disloyal or do anything to harm one love,ones self because two have become one so in essance the harm is done to one's own self regardless of the injury weather it be physical or emotional.
Is it possible yes, my wife told me again , the second time now that if I would like to transition I am ftree to do so with her support and she would always be my wife , our relationship ould not change, we are soulmates , two souls become one.

[Bethany38]

Olivia,
Too me love is unconditional. You either love all of someone or you have a strong infatuation with them. I am not saying that there are'nt things that do not or would not get on my nerves. However, if you love someone it is all or nothing. There is no picking and choosing of the different facets of the person in question. I was raised that too truely love someone, you love them unconditionally. I would never ask my wife to be anyone she is'nt, or to change who she is for my own comfort. There are many things that my honey does that have had me going crazy(and vice versa), but this is part of her. If I were to take part of her away. I do not know if she would be the same person i'm in love with now. IMHO.

[Olivia]

Lot's of great replies! Thanks for that. Maybe it's been misunderstood, but I don't really have a problem in this respect. My wife does love me, in whatever mode I may choose to present. I think she even likes Olivia! She loves me with no CD strings attached I guess. It's just that this question has often been in the back of my mind whenever I've seen posts about irate wives or SOs who choose not to accept their crossdressing mates. I'm not judging anyone here. Everyone has their own row to hoe, so to speak. My row is going well.

A few points have caught my attention more than others. Can philandering be equated to crossdressing? Is one an innate "part" of one's being, while the other is a "personality flaw"? Does "if you love me, you would let me express my 'true self!" resonate the same as "if you love me, you will let me have sex with other women"? That doesn't seem right.

Is crossdressing merely a "personality quirk"? Is the same thing as a "bad habit" like smoking or biting one's nails, or over-eating? Do any of you really think of crossdressing as a bad habit? Jeez, I hope not.. It seems like more than that.

Please, keep the ideas and opinions coming. Good dialogue is great. Thanks, Olivia.

[sissystephanie]

Olivia, I think a great deal of whether or not there is "true" love depends on when the crossdressing was revealed. If a man and woman marry, and years later she finds out he is a crossdresser, asking her to love him as she did before the relavation is a stretch. In effect, he lied to her when they married. As other have said, marriage is a two way street. There has to be give and take from both parties. But that give and take must come from open and honest communication between both parties.

That is why I strongly urge complete disclosure BEFORE marriage. Yes, it might ruin the relationship! But isn't it better to have it stop before it gets going than to have a breakdown years later? I think so!

I did tell my dear wife before we married, and she completely accepted me "as is!" In fact, she bought us both matching white silk lingerie to wear at our wedding! We had 49+ happy years together before cancer took her 4 yers ago. At one point in our marriage, years ago, I totally stopped being a CD for reasons having nothing to do with my wife! After 5 years of that, she literally begged me to start dressing again, saying she really missed Stephanie!! Going back to my earlier statements about communication, We always had totally honest and open communication with each other. If she did not want me to dress for a certain reason, she would tell me and I wouldn't. Likewise, if I/Stephanie wanted to go out by myself, I would tell her and she would fix my wig and do my makeup! Lord, do I miss that!!

Well, I have thrown my 2 cents/pence (and way more) into the pot! Stir it all up and people will still be people, doing their own thing! Glad your "row" is growing well!! Give your wife a big hug!!

[GBNatarii]

Once more, the English language is not expressive enough. We use one word: LOVE, for many shades of affection where there might be Agape (total, all abiding absolute love), Filios (the caring for a sibling, family member, or friend within wide measure, and Eros (the sexual love of one's mate)... but is this comprehensive enough to cover such a vast subject. I think not.

Ah, the joys of being a linguist. Japanese "Ai" for love. "I ai you." Etc. Japanese "daisuki" for love... "I daisuki the movie so much." And "Suki." For... "I suki this article of clothing enough to debate buying it."

Back on topic: From my insanely limited understanding of love and marriage and all that great stuff, yes, all sides should be willing to compromise something. The question though, is the same one been asked since tribes started trading materials 5 thousand years ago; "Is what I'm going to get equal to what I am willing to give up?"

Personally, if I believe I'm not going to get what I want for what I have to sacrifice, I drop out, and pretty fast and hard too. Of course, I've never been in a situation similiar to possible marriage, or even already past the getting married part, so I don't know what I'd do there. But I'm still going to make the bet that I'd get out pretty fast.

I think every one should ask themselves that in a situation like OP Olivia stated. I mean, I guess that's what real relationships and marriage is like. But then again, I admit I'm not the greatest person in the world to seek advice on this subject from.

[Jan Michell Collins]

I think I'll tell me wife If she will let me dress I'll try harder to quite smoking !!!!!!!!!let's see how that works

[ReineD]

A few points have caught my attention more than others. Can philandering be equated to crossdressing? Is one an innate "part" of one's being, while the other is a "personality flaw"? Does "if you love me, you would let me express my 'true self!" resonate the same as "if you love me, you will let me have sex with other women"? That doesn't seem right.

Is crossdressing merely a "personality quirk"? Is the same thing as a "bad habit" like smoking or biting one's nails, or over-eating? Do any of you really think of crossdressing as a bad habit? Jeez, I hope not.. It seems like more than that.

I've also seen CDing compared to an addiction or a compulsion. None of these work because CDing is not a self-destructive behavior and because it is a form of self-expression, it does not carry with it the negative connotations that philandering or addictions do.

So I'd like to use a different example.

Pretend I love snakes. Snakes are beautiful, and I have a near-spiritual connection with them. They speak to me!. In fact, I'm almost sure I was a snake in a different life. My love of snakes is a very deep part of who I am. I've collected snakes and snake paraphernalia all my life. I have snake tattoos, jewelry, and knickknacks all over the house.

Unfortunately, my husband has a deep-seated fear of snakes. He abhors them and he can't even look at one without feeling repulsed. When we were first together, I was in the throes of new love and my snake passion did take a back seat temporarily. But, we've been married for 10 years now and my passion is stronger than it has ever been.

I breed the snakes in my basement. My husband loves me, and he is OK with this but he NEVER comes downstairs with me. This makes me sad, because I would love to share my passion with someone. And it also makes me feel guilty because I know that every night before he goes to sleep, my husband worries whether one of the snakes has escaped and it is slithering around the house. But he does love me so he continually stuffs his fears. I have over 50 varieties of snakes including my prize snake, a boa constrictor. I feed my snakes live rodents and bugs that I purchase on the internet, so I also need to maintain a small area for the live food supply.

In time, I become somewhat of an expert and I want to learn even more. Other than a small amount of daily maintenance, what used to take up one or two evenings per week and perhaps one day on the weekend is now doubled. I need to expand my collection, and there is no more room in the basement, so it begins to spill over into different rooms. By this time, my husband has become somewhat inured to the snakes, and he can tolerate them in the living room and the den, but NOT in the bedroom. This would simply freak him out way too much.

My snake lifestyle is getting to be expensive. I am forever wanting to get better habitats with better climate controls, lighting, shelving, expensive books, and I spend hours online shopping for these. I also have found a snake forum (or two) filled with people with whom I can share my passion. I'm also thinking about writing an illustrated book about a particular variety of snakes, so I buy a camera and spend hours trying to get just the right picture. And of course I post them online because I want to share my beauties with the world.

My husband is beginning to feel neglected. So in an effort to not hurt him, I don't tell him about all the acquaintances I am continuing to make, nor does he know the extent of my shopping nor my growing passion about snakes. He's become resigned to sharing me with my hobby, so he begins to develop pastimes of his own to help fill the void. Over time we drift apart. We don't have the connection we used to have. Every once in awhile my husband begins to talk to me about my snake passion, but I don't want to hear it because I know he will ask me to cut back. And I can't. I don't understand why I should have to. It is part of who I am and if my husband loves me, he will understand this. I would love to have him participate and learn about the snakes, but he doesn't want to so I begin to feel cheated. I wonder what it would be like to share a life with someone who shares my passion.

So, it has gotten to the point when we do something together, after a few hours I can't wait to get back to my snakes and my snake forums. Of course I don't tell my husband this, but he does feel my impatience and short-temper. He begins to feel as if I've maybe begun an emotional affair with someone, because I don't explain to him what's going on with my snake passion. I don't want to talk about it with him because I know he would not understand. Remember, I don't want to hurt him.

So one day he looks up my internet history and he finds all the forums I belong to, email accounts he didn't know about, my hundreds of pictures of snakes, and even a meeting site where I have a profile because I want to meet like-minded people. But it's just for fun, mind you. We do fantasize about treks in the Amazon we would take together, but they are just fantasies.

I'll stop there. I wrote this because I hear stories from the CDer's who don't understand why their wives aren't more into the CDing. And I hear from the wives who feel hurt because they feel neglected. There really isn't any other point to my story except to provide a different way of thinking about things.