GG Envy

[Alana65]

If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack).

Now you've gone too far, Trey.

[SirTrey]

Alana....you threaten to take a man's boxers, it's hard to tell what he will do....No plans here of going commando......rofl

[Ze]

Alana....you threaten to take a man's boxers, it's hard to tell what he will do....No plans here of going commando......rofl

And yes, Pops, boxers are very comfy!

[Alana65]

Alana....you threaten to take a man's boxers, it's hard to tell what he will do....No plans here of going commando......rofl

Why not......you stud.

And Ze........boxer's comfy ? ewwww (for me).........but I bet you look great in them.

[Leslie Langford]

If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack).

...think of crossdressers as being like those struggling artists who suffer for their art.

As they say, "No pain, No gain" .

[Ze]

...think of crossdressers as being like those struggling artists who suffer for their art.

As they say, "No pain, No gain" .

Oooooohhh, I get it now! So MtF CDers are really just masochists, right?

*runs*

[Tamara Croft]

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack).

I was going to say dental floss... although that's not clothing... Sharon said my thongs were like dental floss but they keep my butt warm!!! And crack? seriously? can't you tell you're a man.... and in front of the kids TREY!!!

[Leslie Langford]

Oooooohhh, I get it now! So MtF CDers are really just masochists, right?

*runs*

...and we're all in this together, you impertinent little whipper-snapper - just from opposite ends of the spectrum.

Like we actually chose our respective lifestyles/gender orientations just because life wasn't complicated enough as it is!!!

[kellycan27]

You make assumptions here. Do you know whether or not this person or that is trying to do their part in some way? More importantly, do you know what it means for each person? For some, their jobs, their marriages, their lives as they know it are at stake. I agree that progress isn't going to make itself, but it's often more complicated than that, and I can't blame some people for feeling helpless.[QOUTE]

The only assumption that I am making is these people who are complaining and saying "can't" ....aren't. As I mentioned before.. we all have our personal demons. What I am saying is that they do have a choice..whether they choose to act on it or not, for whatever reason is up to them. No .it may not always be prudent to do so... but the choice is there.


[QOUTE]The general idea I get from this post is that "If you're not some sort of activist then you have no right to feel this way." This is backwards. You have to feel like things aren't fair BEFORE you can do anything about it.

Not at all. I am saying that if you aren't willing to try and change something,what do you actually hope to accomplish? Somebody else should do it? Someone else should make the sacrifice on my behalf? I am by no means an activist, I have said many times that I believe individual effort is what it is going to take to make change. For the same reasons that you yourself stated earlier. Fear of losing jobs,family,friends, society, self loathing, not being able to accept themselves,division of groups within the group. Transsexual, cross dressers,gay,bi, F2M. Too much in fighting to mount a united front. I don't want to be associated with being gay. I man man, he feels like he's a woman.. I don't want society to lump me together with.. those people.I don't want to, I don't care, I am happy with the way things are. It's my thing and I don't want to share it. What is fair? Who ever said that life is fair? Is it fair that children word wide starve to death? is it fair that people lose their life saving through scam artists? Is it fair that people lose their loved ones to violence or illness.. It's just a fact of life.

There's a BIG difference between something you can change, like the clothes you wear, and something that grows attached to you, like boobs. Making the decision to wear a dress is VERY different than making the decision to have boobs. Also, who are the "A lot of us who made a stand?" Wouldn't this contradict your "But no one wants to step up to the plate" sentence earlier?

The a lot of us who have made a stand are the ones who are out there living the way that they want to live. the ones who are not afraid to venture out dressed as they see fit, the ones who ignore the rude remarks and jokes. The ones who who don't fold to the pressure of so called society. Read the threads... I went out. I did it. I travel here, I travel there. I shop,get my hair and nails done. Go to the mall, go to restaurants, bars.
When I say that "no one is willing to step up to the plate" I am reffering to those who complain, but don't do anything to change things. it's not fair, but don't count on me to do anything about it.
My reference with regards to "boobs" was an attempt at sarcasim...it was obviouly lost on you, as you took me quite literally. The point that I was trying to make is that ... I believe that that sometimes people take things a bit too far. IMHO, after reading post after post in regards to fear and unacceptance I truly believe that even if the so called social taboos no longer existed... a lot of these people would find other excuses as to why they can or cannot do this or that. I think that sometimes "society" is used a crutch. it's not perfect, but things are changing. again, look a through the posts on coming out.. How many success stories are ther compared to failures? Doesn't that tell us something? How many closeted ones cite fear of society as opposed to the ones who make that leap of faith? Doesn't it make you wonder? I won't venture out because "society" doesn't accept me.
I know that there are exceptions so you need not bring up your town of 10 people etc. Suffice to say that yes there are exceptions.

[Ze]

...and we're all in this together, you impertinent little whipper-snapper - just from opposite ends of the spectrum.

Got it. You all are masochists and we're sadists.

Or at least Trey is.

[Leslie Langford]

...I came across this article in today's Toronto Star which is in the same vein as the original one I flagged when I started this thread.

http://www.thestar.com/living/fashion/article/680050

Gurls - run, don't walk, to the nearest shoe store and grab all those stilettos and girly shoes off the shelves before they run out and are replaced by menswear style brogues etc., which appears to be the coming trend.

Yuck! No, make that double yuck! What's a self-respecting crossdresser supposed to make of all this ?

[Gerard]

What frustrates me is that women wearing mens' clothes is socially acceptable, and the other way 'round is not. It really makes me mad sometimes.

Yeah. Exactly what I thought.

[suchacutie]

Now that the manufacturers of women's jeans understand that men are buying these jeans in ever larger numbers, I'm sure someone is getting the point that there is a profit possibility here, and there is no need to be radical about it.

A slow evolutionary change can bring about a massive change in what is "chic" or "in" or even "acceptable" for the well-dressed male to wear! A few years ago white shirts were the only acceptable formal dress. Today I don't own a white shirt (except tux shirts)! Purple and Pink are totally acceptable. More than that, I always get terrific compliments when I wear those colored shirts (from women).

So, all you influential folks...get out there and make it clear to clothing designers and manufacturers that they are missing a massive profit potential but not slowly making a slowly and slightly ever-more feminine set of male-oriented clothes available! I lost 35 pounds a few years ago an when I bought new jeans my wife thought they looked terrible, so I now by size 8 low-rise jeans and they fit terrific (size 10 if they are not low-rise!).

Let's get out there and promote the greed and profit factor, and I'm sure that inequity will disappear in 20 years!



tina

[Gerard]

I don't mean to be flippant, but the solution is to do what women did in the 60s and 70s. They just went out and wore pants and the fashion industry responded with dollar signs in its eyes. When such a large volume of females also wants to wear pants, there is very little society can do other than accept it. But, women wore pants because they were tailored for their bodies and they looked attractive. Excepting transmen, they do not want to buy their pants in men's stores nor do they want to express themselves as men.

I gather from threads I've read here that if skirts and dresses were designed specifically for men the majority of CDers would not want to wear them, especially if the majority of GMs did, since it wouldn't satisfy their desire to express femininity. There is no comparison between women wearing pants designed for women to men wearing dresses designed for women.

I bet if you asked the guys in the transmen section, they would tell you they've also suffered societal bias over presenting as men.

I agree it is frustrating, but the issue is not about men wanting to wear dresses. It is about men wanting to express femininity. And TGs will have to come out in droves for society to be able to begin accepting it. And still it will take time, if you compare the issue to general acceptance of homosexuality; it is much better now than it was in the 60s, but still there are large segments of our population that are staunchly homophobic.

How I have come to understand myself, is that I actually would be happier in a society where there were dresses designed for men and it was acceptable to wear them. I'd like to extend that to the fabrics, colours and patterns, lace and silk and such, soft and bright colours, frills.
Since understanding myself better, I now understand why I pick the male clothes I wear and a lot of what me attracts to feminine clothes are choices that just are not available in men's wear in fabrics and colours and patterns.
Besides that wearing a skirt or dress just is a nice feeling, much better air flow and less chaffing in certain areas.

Okay, here's the other side of the coin, just for argument's sake... or I should say one of the many sides of the coin.
That may be true to some extent, in some circumstances.
Those of us who are really good at passing (like my buddy Ze for example) have problems with society similar to what MTF CDs experience.
But GGs who are masculine to any lesser degree (like me) can end up frustrated because our clothing is so well accepted that it's virtually impossible to express our masculine side. It's a lot easier for a male to express his female side, and even feel a little thrill and naughtiness doing it if he wants to. A little eyeliner or blouse will do it. Most women just can't do that. We would have to really go all out (it's all or nothing) to be acknowledged as masculine at all.
...But I don't act hateful to innocent GMs because of it.

I had never looked at it like that. I can see how that's frustrating in a way too. One of the reasons I visit this forum, is to hear opinions like that.

In the end I think my personal desire would be a world where there is no real distinction between masculine and feminine, and everything is accepted for everyone. I that sense I am different from a lot of people here I think, in that a lot of people just wish to be on the other side, not to merge both sides.

People are into crossdressing for different reasons, and have different preferences. Personally I am dress to look like a woman, and would not do guy-in-dress mode. But I do admire the courage and respect people who are doing that.

What I found less useful is to whine about the non-acceptance of the society. Talking and complaining is easy and won't help. The do-ers who do get out of the door are giants in action.

Image the women who fought for their right to wear pants a century ago. They faced a far more restrictive society, and a far less accepting public. Talking about the danger of being assulted, a woman back then should have more concern on that than a guy-in-dress now. Though these women pressed ahead and turned the society. They have my respect.

If the question is why the society can accept women wearing men's cloth, that is because they wanted it, fought for it, and got it. They deserve it.

Now go for what you want, and if you don't you deserve not having it.

Very well put. But it still scares me. I hope one day I'll have the courage, coming to this forum has been my first step, I hope I'll make more, but I'm very much a coward.

Why don't you guys band together, dawn your skirts,dresses and 5o'clock shadows and make a stand? safety in numbers and all that? I f you feel so strongly.... take a stand. You want to see things change but none of you seem willing to make change. Everyone wants to be accepted, but nobody wants to step up to the plate. Maybe that is why people consider it whining.
Each group within our group has to make some kind of statement whether they be TS,cross dressers,F2M or what have you. Not everyone will accept everyone else..... fact of life. So you can let fear rule how you live yours and you can piss and moan until the cows come home, but to what end?
IMHO opinion comparing and complaining about what gg's get away with is petty. next thing you'll be complaining about is the fact that they have bigger breasts and that it just isn't fair. A lot of us who made a stand were just as scared as you are, but we did it anyway. We all have our demons.

I've been thinking about this. Can it be that part of what makes us "whiners" who we are, is that we lack some of the male drive and guts to act and do what we should? I don't want to insult GG. Part of what makes me have problems as identify as male is that I don't identify with all the testosterone driven madness I see in a lot of GMs.

I also never had much lust for thrillseeking or amusement park rides.

I'm not defending my own inaction, just trying to understand myself, and see if there are others who feel like me.

If we are going strictly for comfort here, we will also need to eliminate tight corsets and bustiers....high heels (especially spiked heels).....nylons, tights (way too hot, generally not comfortable, rip easily).....hmmm......girdles, well, that's a given....shorts and short skirts (at least in summer, makes your legs stick to the chair).....Hey, what's uncomfortable about boxers??? I think they are the most comfortable thing, ever.....guess it depends on what you consider comfortable.....

<<Added to list>> Push up bras and any type of thong (or any article of clothing that rides up the crack).

I can fully agree with this. Some heels are ok though, if they're not too high.

[ReineD]

...I came across this article in today's [I]
Yuck! No, make that double yuck! What's a self-respecting crossdresser supposed to make of all this ?

It'll never fly, it's way too trendy.

[sometimes_miss]

The truth: Women can be a flaming cross-dresser and no one will think a thing about it.

I see there are quite a few GG's that disagree with this statement. Yet, pretty much any woman can put on genuine male clothing, from head to toe, and walk into home depot without a stitch of makeup, hair tucked under a baseball cap, buy a boatload of such things like lumber, nails, cement, tools, etc., loading up their orange wagon while wearing work gloves, and no one would give a crap or even give her a second glance; and keep in mind I'm not including her doing any male specific 'over the top' behavior either, just wearing all male attire and behaving normally. My ex wife did this all the time back when we were married (much to my disappointment, I really would rather have had her dress up a bit more girly much more often).
But let a guy wear a short, tight skirt with all the rest of the girl clothes, A cup bra with no padding, frilly top, heels, stockings, jewelry, make up and hairstyle, really female specific items, etc, and go shopping for the day in the ladies clothing section of Bloomingdales or such, and he'll get a very different experience, even if he doesn't change any of the rest of his behavior, you know, still walks like a guy and talks like a guy. GG's CAN get away with way more than we can in this regard.

[linnea]

I don't mean to be flippant, but the solution is to do what women did in the 60s and 70s. They just went out and wore pants and the fashion industry responded with dollar signs in its eyes. When such a large volume of females also wants to wear pants, there is very little society can do other than accept it. But, women wore pants because they were tailored for their bodies and they looked attractive. Excepting transmen, they do not want to buy their pants in men's stores nor do they want to express themselves as men.

I gather from threads I've read here that if skirts and dresses were designed specifically for men the majority of CDers would not want to wear them, especially if the majority of GMs did, since it wouldn't satisfy their desire to express femininity. There is no comparison between women wearing pants designed for women to men wearing dresses designed for women.

I bet if you asked the guys in the transmen section, they would tell you they've also suffered societal bias over presenting as men.

I agree it is frustrating, but the issue is not about men wanting to wear dresses. It is about men wanting to express femininity. And TGs will have to come out in droves for society to be able to begin accepting it. And still it will take time, if you compare the issue to general acceptance of homosexuality; it is much better now than it was in the 60s, but still there are large segments of our population that are staunchly homophobic.

This is right on target, in my opinion.

[skirtsuit]

Blah, blah, blah. wear it and be proud.

You should have seen the envy on the faces of the girls at the Tavern on Monday night when I came dowm stairs in my pink silk jacket & dress and 4.5" strappy sandals. I don't know if they knew I was a guy, but I could see the jelousy and feel their eyes on my back. They probably all wished they could look good in a 8P dress and walk well in really high heels!

Check out the babe in the hot pink

http://www.transvamp.com/events/pictures/0809/index.php

All The Best.

Ann / SS

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

.....That being said, we all face discrimination, we are ALL fighting a battle for acceptance, ie: we are pretty much ALL in the same boat....Cliche as it is, can't we all just get along???

Trey,

LOVE this post and the one by TGMarlas as well. They say everything that needs to be said. Whatever boat you we are in... getting along and supporting one another can make a difference in the long run.

*hugs*

Zarabeth

[Leslie Langford]

I just got a flyer in the mail promoting the new Fall 2009 upscale "Pure" line by designer Alfred Sung, who is now showcasing some of his fashions through Canadian retailer Zellers ("Target" wannabe).

What do I see on Page 3? A young female model wearing grey plaid pants, a styled white shirt with French cuffs, a loosely tied man's tie around her neck, and all of this is topped off by the proverbial "Boyfriend" cardigan. The only hint of true femininity is the fact that she is wearing modest black heels and what appear to be either patterned trouser socks or tights.

Grrrr! If you're gonna raid my closet, then I'm gonna raid yours . Consider yourself warned!

[Sheila]

What do I see on Page 3? A young female model wearing grey plaid pants, a styled white shirt with French cuffs, a loosely tied man's tie around her neck, and all of this is topped off by the proverbial "Boyfriend" cardigan. The only hint of true femininity is the fact that she is wearing modest black heels and what appear to be either patterned trouser socks or tights.

Grrrr! If you're gonna raid my closet, then I'm gonna raid yours . Consider yourself warned!

Guess you missed the blaring obvious then ........... the fact that she is Feminine and that you saw that straight away .......... the clothes are just that, clothes ........... her femininity comes from within .......... as it does for all of us who know our true femininity (yes I include all the girls in here who believe themselves to be feminine)

[Shelly Preston]

Nice idea but I don't know how you decide on true femininity

Oh and I am sure the model did not raid your closet

[Deborah Jane]

What do I see on Page 3? A young female model wearing grey plaid pants, a styled white shirt with French cuffs, a loosely tied man's tie around her neck, and all of this is topped off by the proverbial "Boyfriend" cardigan.

From a blending in point of view I guess that should make crossdressing easier then!!

There is nothing to stop you wearing anything you like, apart from yourself, women have exactly the same right, so where's the problem?