First time out and a run in with the cops

[Andrea_1948]

As I see it, here in the US we have the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution which guarantees the right to privacy in your person and your private property. 'Reasonable cause' has to do with a crime/offense that has already been committed and the police believe the person they are contacting has committed that crime/offense. One can usually expect an arrest or 'cite and release' when confronted by the police where reasonable cause exists. However, 'Reasonable Suspicion' has to do with some articulable fact that a crime/offense may have been or is about to be committed.

When you are approached by the police and they clearly want to talk with you the first words uttered from you should be, "Has a crime or offense been committed"? If the police respond with something like, "I'm not sure" or "Maybe" or something to that affect, they are operating under reasonable suspicion and fishing for information. Yes, the police are able to approach you anywhere in a public place or go to your home or other private property for a 'knock and talk' discussion but in no case are you obliged to answer any questions or even talk with them (Fifth Amendment to the Constitution). If the police tell you that they believe a crime/offence has been committed, and you may be involved somehow, do not under any circumstances talk with them about the crime/offense because ANY ‘voluntary statements’ made by you can and will be used against you. If the offense is a crime and you are taken into custody, the police are required to advise you of your Miranda Rights which are:
1. You have the right to remain silent.
2. You have the right to have an attorney present before you answer any questions
3. If you can’t afford an attorney one will be appointed by the court for you
4. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a Court of Law

There are exceptions to every rule. The police in most all locals have the right to stop and talk to you but they cannot unreasonably detain you unless you are under arrest. Arrest means that you are taken into physical custody, held long enough to issue a citation or the police restrict you from just walking away.

Another BIG EXCEPTION if you are operating a motor vehicle you must produce a driver license or you can be detained long enough to assure your correct identity and validity of your license. Sometimes that’s a chauffeured trip to the police station and a walk back to your car or impound lot and a hefty tow bill.

As for pictures, anyone can take a (not lewd) photo of anyone else in a public place unless it posted as forbidden or there is some expectation of privacy. Public nude beaches, for example, often are posted for everyone but the police.

As for searching; the police may give a quick ‘pat down’ for weapons and their protection. Cops are taught how to do this at the academy so they don’t get fondling charges brought against them. Vehicle and private space searches can only be done with your consent or a warrant.

I have mixed feelings about allowing a search of my vehicle or private space (property). If I were in Ellie’s shoes, if the female cop has a good attitude, OK maybe. Assh*le cops get a warrant period since they MUST have enough probable cause to convince a judge or magistrate that they need to search your private property for evidence of a crime. Some cops will threaten you that they will get a warrant if you don't let them do a consentual search. It's usually an unfounded threat and a whole different legal situation if they do. It's inconvenient for both you and the cop but what the hell make ‘em do their job right.

By the way, the photo the cops took, count on it being passed around the ‘cop shop’ if for nothing more than a laugh. It’ll probably get posted on the bulletin board for a while. And count on a record of some sort being made about the encounter even if it’s just a simple dispatch log entry.

OK, sorry for the rant. I am not a cop nor am I anti-police. I just dislike watching my civil rights get slowly erroded away.

[Hope]

By your description, what you were doing was completely innocent.

I'm not sure what to say. You seem to be so nonchalant about this - but if I were out, minding my own business, not disturbing people, and I were subjected to questioning, a groundless, warrantless search, and was told to not engage in a completely legal activity in a public place by a supposed public servant - I would be filing a harassment complain, at a minimum.

You seem to think this isn't a big deal, but it IS a big deal. When we allow ourselves to be harassed like this, we reinforce the idea that it is completely OK to harass tans people like this.

I am forced to wonder, based on your reaction, if you don't feel like what you were doing is somehow dirty and wrong.

[Andrea_1948]

Ah... you know what they say... when you assume, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me."

It should be clear to anyone who read past the first post (though the modus operandi seems to be barge in without reading any further) that the OP lives in Australia.

Australia was never meant to be a free country. It is a prison colony.

I say "is" not "was" for a good reason... and anyone who understands the core principles of human liberty will understand.

So, this is perfectly normal behavior for Australian police, and Australian subjects.

Kudos to you Americans who got riled, but you're barking up the wrong tree, don't you think?

Yeah, you're right. Sometimes it feels good to just bark though.

[Saren]

Yes, I know, not really relavent to the conversation...But in response to Andrea 1948. The US Patriot Act pretty much renders the 4th Amendment NULL AND VOID. If the government/police so choose that they have reason to belive you *MAY* be acting suspicious, they can perform an illegal search and seizure of your proporty quite legaly. It is a horrible act that needs to be repealed. All it is doing is making America more and more of an Orwellian society then it already was. It won't be long till most of our rights from the Bill of Rights is pretty much circumvented. I would bet on it happening within my lifetime. I am almost 23 now.

[Jessinthesprings]

why were they bothering you anyway? If you were working on your tan wearing clothes keeping to yourself they should have never even approached you. I'm confused.

[catriona36]

Ellie Lierae
Hi sis.
The only part that has me worried is the fact that they took your picture.
why? to use at a later date by the sounds of it.
if they do or dont use it, they HAVE it.
Now since you have not been convicted of ANY sex crime
they have no need to take your picture.
I would email or call the following departments up your way..

Queensland Ombudsman

Level 17, 53 Albert St Brisbane 4000
GPO Box 3314 Brisbane 4001
Phone - Freecall™ 1800 068 908 (within Qld only)
(07) 3005 7000 (Brisbane metro)
TTY - (07) 3006 8174
Fax - (07) 3005 7067


Anti-Discrimination Commission - www.adcq.qld.gov.au/

Crime and Misconduct Commission - www.cmc.qld.gov.au/

The Ombudsman - www.ombudsman.qld.gov.au

We can not let the police go round doing what they like (to a point)
In some areas we have shot ourselves in the foot by removing certain
powers from the police in Aus and in others given them way toooooooo much.
I know its hard for those (me included) who have not come out,
but i would be demanding the picture be destroyed.
I know Queensland can be a funny place, and they may even have it writen up,
that if you do something "strange" in public they can take your picture for "furture reference".

Quote. " i remember when queensland made homosexuality legal, so i left b4 they made it compolsory"

[Andrea_1948]

Yes, I know, not really relavent to the conversation...But in response to Andrea 1948. The US Patriot Act pretty much renders the 4th Amendment NULL AND VOID. If the government/police so choose that they have reason to belive you *MAY* be acting suspicious, they can perform an illegal search and seizure of your proporty quite legaly. It is a horrible act that needs to be repealed. All it is doing is making America more and more of an Orwellian society then it already was. It won't be long till most of our rights from the Bill of Rights is pretty much circumvented. I would bet on it happening within my lifetime. I am almost 23 now.

Kinda morphing the topic. But yeah, there is such a thing as 'exigent circumstances' and the 'plain view doctrine' which allow the police to search without a warrant IF there is a strong likelyhood that evidence will be destroyed or contraband is plainly seen by the police. I have a big issue with wiretaps that are either illegal or allowed by some secret court somewhere by an unknown judge where the probable cause will never be tested in court.

[goofus]

Run-ins with law enforcement personnel are always interesting, particularly when you're dressed or doing something crossdressing related!!

[donnalee]

The US Patriot Act pretty much renders the 4th Amendment NULL AND VOID.

No act of Congress or of the executive branch can make a provision of the U.S. Constitution "null & void". There have been many attempts by those branches to do this, mostly in the name of patriotism. It is, of course, the exact opposite. These attempts must ultimately fail, but, as I've had to explain to some, I'd rather not fight those battles unless I have significant assistance.

[Persephone]

The older guy looked like he was itching to find cause to lock me up, so I figured easier to let them search the car and bag find nothing and go on thier way, and yeh I live in australia. I hadn't broken any indecency laws so I know I was in the right, just didnt want the hassle of fighting with them.

A whole bunch of folks here seem preoccupied with the legal details of what happened, to the point that a number of them haven't even noticed that U.S. law doesn't apply in Australia.

I too am a big fan of civil rights, especially the first ten Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, but I think it is way more important to give you credit for what appears to have been your complete coolness under fire.

This was your first time out and, boom! you encountered the police! You took it in stride, handled it well, and went on with your life. Well done!

So Ellie, here's a big bouquet of flowers and a big hug for you!

Persephone.

[jessica millen]

exactly my point, Persephone. the way you reacted,Ellie, in my mind, is totally correct. for some of you quoting the laws of america, she's already said this was her first time out, and harrassed, and she wanted it to end quickly and with no further actions, due to living at home etc etc.
i understand that we all have rights that we need to believe in, i'm just the same as any one here saying that you could have refused, but heres the thing - i would have done the same, as (a) i had nothing to hide and (b) i had done nothing wrong and (c) theres always one arsehole, get used to it.
maybe if the occassion arises again, she will feel more confident in herself and her rights to say so, maybe not.
and Alayna, i totally agree with your point, but you see, i come from a country torn by war for all my life, hence why i moved away. i was in many confrontations with the police and army (not with crossdressing mind you!) when the most sensible option was to talk, reason, allow a search and get on with your day. i have seen the consequences of other actions, when a force may be either prejudiced, or just plain scared or spooked by something out of the ordinary.
here endeth the lesson
have a nice day girls
jess

[Fab Karen]

"
Australia was never meant to be a free country. It is a prison colony."
If you're interested in being accurate, replace is with was.

[shesadvl]

yup oi agree karen was they've become a bit more civilised now laffing... and yes the OP is from australia... the place Gladstone im pretty sure is in Queensland, they were also talking about moving to Brisbane which is also in the state of Queensland.

as for Australia being the penal colony was:

This Day in History 1788: First Australian penal colony established....From 1788 to 1823, the Colony of New South Wales was officially a penal colony comprised mainly of convicts, marines and the wives of the marines But there was also many other parts of australia that had smaller penal colonies as well

As for the beach coppers, we also have them here in NZ, there is a section of beach that is set aside where we go as we have access ..(where I live to a number of beaches within a 5-10 minute drive)..... for those that are nude bathers, if you are a CD'er I guess can go on that end of the beach as well, because its relatively secluded, the laugh is that the beach coppers are fully clothed laffing... the nude bathers objected to them wearing uniform on their beat....and that end of the beach... that are pretty well left alone unless you are walking the length of the beach and should come across them.....there are warning notices that the area could contain nude bathers.....

Amazing the female copper was interested in your CDIng Ellie but good for you answering her questions, but I guess what they put you through was pretty standard because of the old dude not understanding other peoples lifestyles or way of life, your wish to enjoy the beach in a bikini....

My sister had a situation on a beach in melbourne...where they allow topless bathing...if you are there first and no one around and you are topless bathing then those that arrive later have to accept it... this apparently caused a huge furore,.. now they have signs topless this end others the other end lol.... takes all sorts no matter how open minded yer are...

[trudytwoshoes]

No wonder people have little or no respect for the police- they're as red-necked as can be- take it in to the bush- how subtle- The english expression 'Git" seems apt.
Regards
Trudytwoshoes

[kay_jessica]

...............................

Am I to assume your either in England or Australia??? ..................

Well I immediately assumed she was in the US, given all the horror stories you read on this forum about how difficult it is to go out dressed in some states. But alas, I think Elle is Australian (East Coast maybe). It certainly would not happen here in the UK given the fact that the police here take hate crimes quite seriously. As an example see http://www.hampshire.police.uk/Inter...btpolicing.htm. Then I'm surprised it happened as reported in Australia http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/community/lgbti/ If it had been me I think I'd be formaly complaining about to their superiors and expecting them to go after the guy who drew their attention to me in the first place for trying to incite hate crime.

Hugs

Kay

[BritneyLynn]

While complaining to the police about a crossdresser is a bit bigoted/close minded, I don't think it approaches the point of inciting or committing a hate crime. Some people haven't been exposed to enough information about us to distinguish between someone with unusual clothing tastes and someone else that's a predator.

Had someone threatened to hurt Ellie if she didn't take her bikini elsewhere, I would think a "hate" element coming into play.

Had Ellie been reluctant to have her car searched I don't believe the officer would have had probable cause for an involuntary search. Some places are enforcing some standards about how revealing swimsuits can be, particularly thong style bottoms, knitted material with skimpy or no lining and tiny breast pockets on women's tops.

[Tina P Hose]

Cops are just regular folks doing their job. Like most folks doing their job some are jerks, and some are just regular folks. If a cop is a jerk, for no apparent reason, the cop should be written up. If the cop written up does not starigten up he/she should be fired...just like regular folks.

[Stephanie-L]

FWIW, I have had several friends who were police officers here in the US tell me, do not consent to a search of any kind if you can avoid it. Of course this does not stop them from searching IF they have probable cause, but my friends have said that often all the officer has is a feeling, or just doesn't like the looks of the person, etc, so they ask for permission to search. Then all bets are off, anything they find can be used aginst you, drugs, large amounts of cash (which in some areas could be as little as $20), a knife with a blade a bit too long, tools (you could be a burglar), plans for a MK IX thermonuclear device.... If they do not have permission to search and use probable cause as the reason then anything they find is supposed to be related to the suspected crime, i.e. if they think you are dealing drugs the aforementioned plans would not be admissable (if you get a good lawyer who can argue it in front of the judge..). Of course this is all based on US law and our Constitution's guarantee of our Right to be secure in our persons and papers, in other countries I am very sure things are different. Anyway, I am glad that things turned out well, but I would be careful, that older cop sounds like he wil be watching for you, and for an excuse to bust you for being a deviant, he wants to get perverts like you off our beaches. Good luck....Stephanie

[TxCassie]

Ellie,

What an experince for your first time out en femme! But, you did handle it well. I take it you're down under, so I do not know the laws as I am in the U.S.

Some of the things posted are not accurate and I think some of the comments show a person's own prejudice about law enforcement officers. But, then, you must realize our prespective come from our experineces, so each may very well be valid.

I've never gone out en femme nor do I expect to anytime soon, maybe one day, but that day is not here yet. Yet, while I know the officers were doing their jobs by responding to a call for service, how they excute their duties is another thing. And everyone was dead on by saying how you reacted and responded really did make all the difference.

Searches are always very touchy. I think we all can agree that having a police officer search through our private things or person is quite unnerving. The old adage of "If you have nothing to hide, then..." is just not a valid or acceptable attitude. It's not a matter of having anything to hide (of course, manytimes it is... ) but it's a matter of not wanting anyone rummaging through your personal belonging or touching your person, it's a violation of privacy, personal security, and freedom. Yet, upon reasonable suspecion, a police office may question you, under probably cause they may search without a warrant. The U.S. Supreme Court just passed on a ruling that they can no longer search beyond the reach of the person in a motor vehical unless there is probably cause of a weapon, or elements of a crime present.

So, the authority of the police officer in the U.S. have been curtailed by a conservative court. Yet, the officer can always request to search your belongings and you have every right to refused. Refusal always triggers a more intense determination on part of the officer to search, either by threat of a dog sniffing officer or warrant. I would haved asked, Officer what is your probably cause to search my belongings? I prefer no one touch my belongings as they are mine. Most officers will ask if you have anything illegal on your peson which you would repond no. Unless the officer has reason not to believe you, I would say that would end the request for any search. A gurl tanning on the beach, alone, away from others doesn't sound like you gave a reason for a search.

The part of your experince which I found unsettling is why they were walking you to your car or were they escorting you to your car? A police officer here would determine there was no crime being committed or about to be committed, no viloation of city oridance, and should bid you a good day and leave. The fact they were walking with you gave me the feeling they were directing or forcing you (abit in a most unforcable manner) to leave the beach.

Above all, I would have objected to the picture unless you gave consent. There should be no reason for a police officer (in the U.S.) to take a picture of a anyone they come into contact other than for evidence. If you had a camera, you should have retuned the favor and then gone to their station and asked the commander why it was necessary these officers took yoiur picture without consent. While it is true, the officer will record the contact because it is part of the job. We, the public demand accountability of our police force and thus, we must not cry when a database is created. Back in the day, I believe police departments did keep databases on various populations, but today, I don't know if that really is the case. In the current day where there are openly gay and yes, there are even transgender police officers, I think such databases would be exposed somehow.

So, after all this verbage.. sorry to be long winded, I think when we gals come into contact with law enforcement, we need to react in a very mature, confident and knowledgeable manner. Know your rights and remember while there are jerks in every walk of life, most police officers are just doing their job and trying to get home alive at the end of the day. The "pistol in the bikini" can and does happen all the time and life changes or ends in an instant for a police officer.

Cassie

[Elly E]

Ugh, pigs....

I love one thing about Michigan - If I'm not operating a vehicle which requires a license, I don't have to show ID if hassled by the police.

Being an open carry advocate, you learn a lot about search and seizure laws - And the fact is, it makes me sick to hear about this sort of thing, I'm happy you didn't get in trouble, but at the same time - You shouldn't have had to be subjected to such an invasive search (Drugs? Etc? Stop making trouble for people...God I hate cops...)

I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

Ugh..ignorant people.

How cool that we share something in common. I hate certain classes of people, too. Like people that think all TG's are queer, or people that hate all blacks, or all whites, or all cops. You know, ignorant people.

In case you can't read, she wasn't gratuitously "hassled" by the police, they responded to a citizen's complaint, she gave her permission for them to search her belongings voluntarily. Do try to pay attention, dear.

-Joni Mari

[Olivia]

Gratuitous or not, you don't think she was "hassled" by those officers? Good grief.

[Joni Marie Cruz]

I was going to respond in kind, but it's pointless. Have a nice weekend.

-Joni Mari

[dragdoll]

what state (or country) was this? i would never consent to any kind of search or picture taking for doing absolutely nothing. cops suck.

[Elly E]

Ugh..ignorant people.

How cool that we share something in common. I hate certain classes of people, too. Like people that think all TG's are queer, or people that hate all blacks, or all whites, or all cops. You know, ignorant people.

In case you can't read, she wasn't gratuitously "hassled" by the police, they responded to a citizen's complaint, she gave her permission for them to search her belongings voluntarily. Do try to pay attention, dear.

-Joni Mari

You're right, I should have paid attention.

You're a bleeding heart and shes ignorant and naive for giving permission for a search.