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Thread: Are we genetically pre-disposed to be feminine?

  1. #1
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    Are we genetically pre-disposed to be feminine?

    Hi ladies,

    I've been having a nice debate with a fellow CD about choice. She believes that we have a choice to be a crossdresser or not be a crossdresser.

    I am all about taking personal responsibility and not making excuses for deviant behavior. I'm not saying that crossdressing is a deviant behavior by the way. I'm just saying that some crossdressers use the excuse that they have no choice as an excuse to participate in deviant behavior. They tell their spouse that they have been cheating because they can't help it...for an example. Though I do agree with the fact that we do have a choice to "act" on our feelings or not, I think that many of us are pre-disposed at birth to be the way we are.

    If our bodies have different gentic, hormonal and chemical makeups from other men then our bodies and brains most likely develop differently than other men. Not to make any excuses, some of us could be so much more female than male that we swing to the side of not having a choice or at least if we choose not to act on it we will likely be very unhappy with that choice.

    Take a look at this and let me know your thoughts...

    Kisses,

    Allie

    Below is a really interesting piece from last Friday's New York Times
    http://www.nytimes. com/2009/ 08/22/...html?emc= eta1

    and this is a link to one of Alice Dreger's books on Amazon:
    http://www.amazon. com/Hermaphrodit ... dp/0674001893

    Where’s the Rulebook for Sex Verification?

    By ALICE DREGER
    Published: August 21, 2009

    The only thing we know for sure about Caster Semenya, the world-champion runner from South Africa, is that she will live the rest of her life under a cloud of suspicion after track and field’s governing body announced it was investigating her sex.

    Why? Because the track organization, the I.A.A.F., has not sorted out the rules for sex typing and is relying on unstated, shifting standards.
    To be fair, the biology of sex is a lot more complicated than the average fan believes. Many think you can simply look at a person’s “sex chromosomes.” If the person has XY chromosomes, you declare him a man. If XX, she’s a woman. Right?

    Wrong. A little biology: On the Y chromosome, a gene called SRY usually makes a fetus grow as a male. It turns out, though, that SRY can show up on an X, turning an XX fetus essentially male. And if the SRY gene does not work on the Y, the fetus develops essentially female.

    Even an XY fetus with a functioning SRY can essentially develop female. In the case of Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, the ability of cells to “hear” the masculinizing hormones known as androgens is lacking. That means the genitals and the rest of the external body look female-typical, except that these women lack body hair (which depends on androgen-sensitivit y).

    Women with complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome are less “masculinized” in their muscles and brains than the average woman, because the average woman makes and “hears” some androgens. Want to tell women with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome they have to compete as men, just because they have a Y chromosome? That makes no sense.

    So, some say, just look at genitals. Forget the genes — pull down the jeans! The I.A.A.F. asks drug testers to do this. But because male and female genitals start from the same stuff, a person can have something between a penis and a clitoris, and still legitimately be thought of as a man or a woman.

    Moreover, a person can look male-typical on the outside but be female-typical on the inside, or vice versa. A few years ago, I got a call from Matthew, a 19-year-old who was born looking obviously male, was raised a boy, and had a girlfriend and a male-typical life. Then he found out, by way of some medical problems, that he had ovaries and a uterus.

    Matthew had an extreme form of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia. His adrenal glands made so many androgens, even though he had XX chromosomes and ovaries, that his body developed to look male-typical. In fact, his body is mostly male-typical, including his muscle development and his self identity.

    O.K., you say, if chromosomes and genitals do not work, how about hormones? We might assume that it is hormones that really matter in terms of whether someone has an athletic advantage.

    Well, women and men make the same hormones, just in different quantities, on average. The average man has more androgens than the average woman. But to state the obvious, the average female athlete is not the average woman. In some sports, she is likely to have naturally high levels of androgens. That is probably part of why she has succeeded athletically.

    By the way, that is also why she is often flat-chested, boyish looking and may have a bigger-than- average clitoris. High levels of androgens can do all that.

    Sure, in certain sports, a woman with naturally high levels of androgens has an advantage. But is it an unfair advantage? I don’t think so. Some men naturally have higher levels of androgens than other men. Is that unfair?

    Consider an analogy: Men on average are taller than women. But do we stop women from competing if a male-typical height gives them an advantage over shorter women? Can we imagine a Michele Phelps or a Patricia Ewing being told, “You’re too tall to compete as a woman?” So why would we want to tell some women, “You naturally have too high a level of androgens to compete as a woman?” There seems to be nothing wrong with this kind of natural advantage.

    So where do we draw the line between men and women in athletics? I don’t know. The fact is, sex is messy. This is demonstrated in the I.A.A.F.’s process for determining whether Semenya is in fact a woman. The organization has called upon a geneticist, an endocrinologist, a gynecologist, a psychologist and so forth.

    Sex is so messy that in the end, these doctors are not going to be able to run a test that will answer the question. Science can and will inform their decision, but they are going to have to decide which of the dozens of characteristics of sex matter to them.

    Their decision will be like the consensus regarding how many points are awarded for a touchdown and a field goal — it will be a sporting decision, not a natural one, about how we choose to play the game of sex.

    These officials should — finally — come up with a clear set of rules for sex typing, one open to scientific review, one that will allow athletes like Semenya, in the privacy of their doctors’ offices, to find out, before publicly competing, whether they will be allowed to win in the crazy sport of sex. I bet that’s a sport no one ever told Semenya she would have to play.

    Alice Dreger is professor of clinical medical humanities and bioethics in the Feinberg School of Medicine at Northwestern University, and the author of “Hermaphrodites and the Medical Invention of Sex” (Harvard University Press, 1998).
    Last edited by AllieSummers; 08-25-2009 at 10:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Breakin' social taboos TGMarla's Avatar
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    It's a difficult question to answer for me, because I started wearing feminine clothing when I was entering adolescence. This is a time that is very formative for us, and I'm sure the experience is different for those who gravitated towards crossdressing at a later age. I do remember having a strong curiosity about dresses and hosiery, especially since they were articles of clothing that I could never wear, since I was a boy. I noticed that girls could wear guy stuff if they wanted to, but that I was not to put on dresses, hose, heels, etc., no matter what. Once I broke that rule, I found that I really liked wearing this stuff...alot! So I don't know whether or not it's due to a genetic predisposition towards it. It seems like a very convenient excuse. I do know that since I began my affinity towards this stuff during adolescence, my adult persona has developed with this as a part of me, rather than without it being a part of me. So if it's not genetic from birth, it is at least deeply ingrained because I went through adolescence this way.

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  3. #3
    Member Jaydee's Avatar
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    I have felt that it was either genetically based or somehow hardwired, for some time. My personal examples are too numerous to mention, but my first stirrings occurred when I was about 5-6 y.o., too young to have anything to do with sex, or understand what was happening.

    Interesting newspaper article.

    Jaydee

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    Yes, this is a very complex issue. My CDing is the result of a strong deisire to do so and as such, to make myself as convincing as possible to pass as a woman. i'm not sure how this might relate to anything genetic, but it is certain that nature doesn't always get the pattern correct. in fact, i'm sure there are more male/female blending characteristics around than one might think. As for the atheltic competition issues, I think this goes back to the cold war and the Olympics. It's no secret that many E.German female athletes took steroids and hormones that developed their musculature to such an extent that they had a definite advantage over their counterparts from other countries. This may have some bearing on how the IAAF has developed their standards for women in competitive sports.

  5. #5
    Senior Member 5150 Girl's Avatar
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    Well,,, When scientific evidencce points out a clear diffence in our chemical and or physical makeup, I would say that it is no longer a choice. Of course i also agree that it is up to the individual as to how they choose to handle their situation.

    I also belive that we are all God's children, created by Him in his image, and that he has a plan for us all. He chose to make us all atleast a little diffent in some way. However, I'm still working on why he would make some of us "more diffent" than others. (It's funny, I was just praying on that this morning, only to come down stairs and find this thread. Coincidence? who knows.) The best reason I can come up with at this point is to teach us all somthing about acceptence anfd tolerance for one another, and loving thy neighbor as thyself.
    However with so many of us still in the closet, due to issues of shame, fear, insecurity, and what-not, it makes me feel that there is still somthing missing form my reasoning.

    Pardon me if I'm ranting, but I see scientific eveidence I am why i am, it just re stirs all the why's.

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    That is really the problem. Science will never prove there is a "CLEAR" difference because there isn't a clear difference. The difference between each human, male and female is only very slight.

    God makes no mistakes. Man does make mistakes though. We just interpret what God made as normal or abnormal, black and white, men and women.

    5150 Girl...Your username says it all. What percentage woman and man are we? We are all a different percentage of each, not 100% man or 100% woman. Don't ask why? The only reason someone would want to know "WHY" is to change it. A "normal" man doesn't sit around all day on message boards and ask "WHY" he is a man. That question isn't even part of his conscienceness. He just is and he accepts it.

    The reason so many of us are in the closet is because of society's and our percerption of what we are. We have been taught to believe by our parents, teachers, psychologists, scientists and even religious leaders that we are abnormal. If we as individuals finally realize that we aren't any more different than anyone else is and that what we are isn't by choice or some deviate sexual desires, that we are born with different physical, hormonal, genetic, chemical makeups then we can be at peace with it, accept it and learn to enjoy it.

    I think my point is that I stongly believe that my "condition" isn't a psychological condition. It is a physical "condition". I also strongly believe that there is really a gender scale or spectrum, as I've mentioned in previous posts. I think that if eventually EVERYONE is more aware of gender and how EVERYONE is only a slight variation of each other then they will be more accepting of people that fall outside of the "norm".

    I'm sure there are men that are really close to where I am in the gender spectrum but they are just one shade to the right or left of me. That slight variation makes me lean to the feminine side and makes them lean to the masculine side. We both share many things that can bring us together. The very few things that make us different shouldn't push us apart.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Kisses,

    Allie
    Last edited by AllieSummers; 08-25-2009 at 11:12 AM.

  7. #7
    happy to be her Sarah Doepner's Avatar
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    It's complicated for sure.

    Allie,

    I'd love to agree and say I crossdress because of my genes or body chemistry and I have no choice. That would be soooo easy and, in my life it would be such a cop out. But to rule it out and say it's totally my choice and I thought of it on my own would be just as bad. As the article says, it's complicated.

    I've come to believe that there is a lot to the pre-disposed argument. However the question remains; would I have become a crossdresser if I hadn't been exposed to the opportunity to try on some women's things at just the right time in my life? Or would I have just experienced the "late on-set" of crossdressing in my 40's or 50's like so many of our sisters here describe? It may have been possible that if I'd not be exposed to women's clothing during that time when my chemical stew was ready that I would have gone off in another direction totally.

    We can look back at the path we have taken and try to figure out in retrospect why we turned here and not there. Since I have accepted femininity as a significant part of my world I have consiously changed some of my behaviors that reinforce it. Was it easier to do that because I was pre-disposed or because I have programmed myself to appreciate and accpet those behaviors?

    I can't answer it. I don't know. But I'm here now and I'm not turning back because I find it very satisfying in any number of ways.
    Sarah
    Being transgender isn't a lifestyle choice. How you deal with it is.

  8. #8
    Rebecca Ras's Avatar
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    Well I started to dress at the age of 5 or so, far before I knew anything sexual about why I wanted to dress, I just knew I liked it. Many years later I still enjoy dressing while a lot of it is sexual I feel I never had a choice on whether I dressed or not and know there is no way I could ever stop nor want to.

    So why is we have that urge to dress at such a young age? I have noticed many of us on the introduction page indicated they started at a young age or in there teens and some even later. What is the trigger to dress? Why is it stronger for some and weaker for others. Why do some transition while others just dress?

    While I can no way answer these questions...it has always made me wonder what the answers are.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllieSummers View Post
    I think my point is that I stongly believe that my "condition" isn't a psychological condition. It is a physical "condition". I also strongly believe that there is really a gender scale or spectrum, as I've mentioned in previous posts. I think that if eventually EVERYONE is more aware of gender and how EVERYONE is only a slight variation of each other then they will be more accepting of people that fall outside of the "norm".

    I'm sure there are men that are really close to where I am in the gender spectrum but they are just one shade to the right or left of me. That slight variation makes me lean to the feminine side and makes them lean to the masculine side. We both share many things that can bring us together. The very few things that make us different shouldn't push us apart.

    Why can't we all just get along?

    Kisses,

    Allie
    I agree Allie. I don't consider my situation to be a psychological issues either. This is who I am. This is how I developed genetically and it always irritates me when someone decides to label our activities, if you will, as a psychological disorder. I think it's just a matter of society eventually setting aside preconceived notions as to what defines your sexual orientation, identity, or whatever and to STOP psychoanalyzing us. Everything takes time!!

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    Tendency

    We may be born with certain tendicies, which can be ignored. However some tendicies, if reinforced, become part of us.I have always enjoyed wearing womens clothing. At one time I felt quilty about doing it. But really, if you beleive in God you can not hide it from him-her.! Since I have come to this beleif, I dress when I want too. My wife Knows and is very supportive. I do not beleive in having secrects from her.

  11. #11
    The Anima Corrupt Wen4cd's Avatar
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    I fall on the side of choice. I was saying something to a friend similar to what this article is saying: there has never been, and will never be a physically determining 'test' one way or the other. It will always boil down to what someone chooses to be happier with.

    People should be what makes them happy. You cannot be coerced into happiness, nor are you born pre-disposed to it. You have to choose it.

    People who think they have no choice... those who cling to quasi-medical excuses for what could be a beautiful, rewarding thing, are not ever going to be happy. They are also the same people who help to cause what we do to be percieved as a flaw. Society loves eccentricity, but hates the sick. It's the most basic element of human nature, survival of the species. In ancient times we were seen as shamanic figures of recpect, with special vision and wisdom. If the 'birth defect' excuse had existed then, we would have been drowned in an icy river. Today the medical research still only further serves to label us as subhuman freaks.

    The most insulting thing someone can say of us is not that we are deviant, but that we were physically born the way we are. It's makyo, but it's fast becoming the go-to excuse for everyone who fears personal responsibility. You are what you choose to do.
    Last edited by Wen4cd; 08-25-2009 at 11:29 AM.
    And so we go, on with our lives...
    We know the Truth, but prefer Lies.
    Lies are simple, simple is Bliss.
    Why go against tradition, when we can admit defeat,
    Live in Decline, be the victim of our own design?

  12. #12
    Member Ralph's Avatar
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    Allie, I can say without reservation that this was the most informative article I have ever read on this site. Thanks for finding it and sharing it with us! Of course it raises more questions than it answers... but it does open the door for us to ignore "biology says you must be thus" and instead respond with "I know in my gut that I'm really thus".

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    Wen4cd...I can't disagree with you more. The fact that we were born different doesn't label us as freaks of nature or that we have a disease. It says that we are supposed to be this way. Just because you are looking for a reason doesn't mean that you are trying to find a cure. Just an explaination that will explain why we are the way we are.

    If it is totally a choice then we are freaks because we choose to be totally different.

    I do agree that we do have a choice to be happy or not. That has nothing to do with being TG. You choose to be happy as a man or a woman or as a TG. Once again, I am not looking for an excuse and no one should use this as an excuse. You should say, "I was born an TG and I'm happy that I am".

    Also research is proving that we are born different. I'll post other research that is pointing to that conclusion.

    Kisses,

    Allie

    Once again...none of this is an excuse to be unhappy or to be a bad person or to cheat on your wife. It is simply information that might lead to the conclusion that we are born different...not worse but different. I can't help but believe that if some day they do find definitive proof that TGs are born different because of a natural occurance in the body that it will empower us, not lead us further into the closet.

    More from Cristan Williams, Director of the Houston Transgendered Resource Center...

    I recently did a search for biological factors for being trans and since this article is about the biological factors of gender, I thought I'd share the info I turned up:

    Biological causes:

    Common hormone "bath" in before birth

    Male-To-Females have female BSTs in their brains

    Another study on brain structure

    The "transgender gene"

    Sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity

    TS brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity

    Two monozygotic twin pairs discordant for female-to-male transsexualism

    Anthropometrical measurements

    Psychoneuroendocrinology & transsexuals


    Interesting Reads:

    Causes of Transsexualsim

    Theories on the causes of transsexualism

    Believe what you will...

    Kisses,

    Allie
    Last edited by Sandra; 08-26-2009 at 08:34 AM. Reason: merged consecutive posts use the edit or multiquote function

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    Uh !

    Maybe it's no different than some people like to watch baseball and others don't.

    Why question it ?

    Don't worry be happy................


  15. #15
    Hear Me Roar MiraM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllieSummers View Post
    Wen4cd...I can't disagree with you more. The fact that we were born different doesn't label us as freaks of nature or that we have a disease. It says that we are supposed to be this way. Just because you are looking for a reason doesn't mean that you are trying to find a cure. Just an explaination that will explain why we are the way we are.

    If it is totally a choice then we are freaks because we choose to be totally different.

    I do agree that we do have a choice to be happy or not. That has nothing to do with being TG. You choose to be happy as a man or a woman or as a TG. Once again, I am not looking for an excuse and no one should use this as an excuse. You should say, "I was born an TG and I'm happy that I am".

    Also research is proving that we are born different. I'll post other research that is pointing to that conclusion.

    Kisses,

    Allie
    Can't agree with you more Allie. I was born TG just as I was born Gay. I sure don't remember them asking for volunteers...I may not have signed up. But, I am at the point now that I am totally happy with who I am, and do not hide it. I am openly Gay, and if asked if I do drag or dressup, however they want to put it, I just whip out a picture and show them. I'm proud of who/what I am.

  16. #16
    Gold Member Samantha B L's Avatar
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    I choose crossdressing because I can't think of anything more fun. But I read a book about the history of research into the "phenomena" of crossdressing over 30 years ago(I can't remember the name of the author!) and there is reason to beleive it is partially hormonal and partially neurological in nature and that it runs in families. This book drew certain distinctions between different levels of gender variant behavior(TG/TS/CD/LGBT)and this was the first I'd ever heard of the term "crossdresser". I mean,I wasn't gay or Transexual and if people found out about this thing of mine I guess they'd dismiss me as harmless yet perverted! And of course you choose crossdressing! Who wouldn't?! It's a complete pleasure. But the impulse to do so is probably hormonal or bioneural and it can't be helped. Not all,but many mental health professionals know this but an awful lot of them don't go into much lengthy rapport about these things because they're straight and the subject grosses them out even though most of them are accepting of us.



    I do know that m to f crossdressers have certain things as young children which are a little different than other kids. They sometimes have a tendency to choose toys,games and trinkets in girlish pastel colors,pink,blue, orange,etc.and even once in awhile actual girl's toys and stuff. Usually, boys want things which are colored red or black. Of course that's not written in stone anywhere. The young kids who sometimes later become crossdressers are also easily fascinated by inticate music or art objects. this doesn't mean they can't still be good at sports or that they are gay or bisexual but is that so terrible if they are gay or bi? the book i'm quoting was written in the seventies and it also details the history of the first Transexual Surgery in the early 50's. I read this book in dribbles until I finally finished up with it all at a pharmacy magazine rack about 2 blocks from where I lived in The St.Louis area back in 1979 but I can't remember for the life of me who wrote it but I think it was a PHD psychologist or an MD psychiatrist. So crossdressing is both a pure pleasure and it probably runs in families. Of all the things you could inherit(and this goes for f to m CD'ing too)crossdressing is in a way a gift! Enjoy it!

  17. #17
    The Anima Corrupt Wen4cd's Avatar
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    Allie, I respect your intentions in searching for the 'why' even though I have a different answer.

    Lol, I didn't think you would agree, since I posted an opinion opposite to yours, heehee. Different strokes.

    I just don't think we need to be, or should be, focusing on validating ourselves through the building of physical walls separating us from the rest of society. It's goes in the polar opposite direction I feel we need to go.

    You could try to educate society past the fact that physical differences don't mean physical flaws until you're blue in the face, but all it takes in one HBS to scream "I has uh birth defect!" and that is what is going to trigger the deepest part of man's unconscious survival instincts, which surface as hatred and fear. All your hard work out flies out the window. You don't think this bigotry actually comes from the bible or homophobic grandpas, do you? We have to focus on our similarities, not our differences, because physical differences trigger innate responses, and all the more strongly when it's weighted with the almighty chasuble of 'scientific research.'

    Humanity needs to come together on some level, not to further delineate and put into sharp relief our miniscule differences as individual beings. This line of research, (some of it funded by the same European drug companies who are in the business of manufacturing and selling hormone pills to us,) does not offer any hope I can see, and so far it only amounts to what I said: miniscule differences in body chemistry, something simple common sense would tell you exists in all beings who are not exact clones of each other. I am already thankful for my individuality and my desires, and have no wish to label them as a defect.

    It doesn't say, and never will say, why a kid grabs a certain piece of clothing that has a certain set of emotional and gender symbols attached, and identifies with it, desires to wear it, and chooses to identify as the opposite sex. Gender, I believe, is 99.9% symbolic and 0.1% hormonal. It's nothing to do with sex. The same lacy things we wear today and call feminine, men wore 300 years ago.

    I am 100% sure, when this line of research is followed through, the entire identities of most TV/G/S people are going to be, without shred of doubt, relegated to just 'one more thing' on a list of ugly symptoms of some mundane hormonal deficiency or brain disorder that only exists as a mechanism to sell drugs and treatments for, and then only for people who choose to think of themselves as "flawed at birth". I don't like or want that. I see it as killing people's self-worth, not helping it. I choose to appreciate the beauty of individuality, not analyze it into a dish.

    It's not going to make people smile and go 'oh, I was born this way, awesome!" It's a spiritual and emotional dead end. It negates free will, and reduces one's sense of identity to cold clinical terms, empirical terms, when the identity is IMO based in emotion and spirit. Shall we all cut open our brans to see how many BST's we have before we can let ourselves be content or be good people?

    People, I think, like to grab on to this because it offers a physical rationalization for their actions, which they themselves find "wrong" on some level, or as something to tell someone else one day who asks why. I find this counter productive to any real sense of self-worth or happiness, because it leaves out choice. Even at this stage, where the research basically says 'nothing,' people grab at it like the grail, when they should be embracing the effects instead of the possible causes.

    Whether you want to use it as an excuse or not, a lot of folks do. My only point is they need no excuse for their actions, if they're being decent people. We're not totally different, any more than anybody else is, just different. We have the same core physical and emotional needs as anyone else. We're all deviants in some way or another, that's what makes us interesting and worthy as a species.

    Maybe I just find mind so much more infinitely fascinating and wonderful than the body. I believe choice and free will are the paths to real contentment and happiness. I don't say "I was born like this, so that's why. Please don't hate me for what I am," because I am not a 'what.' I am a "who."

    I just say "Here I am, now let's see what hope I can offer, what can I do for you?" I'd rather be viewed as an insane deviant than a medical oddity. Because I am an insane deviant, and I am loved as who I am by those closest to me.

    Insane deviants make the world go 'round, and always have.
    And so we go, on with our lives...
    We know the Truth, but prefer Lies.
    Lies are simple, simple is Bliss.
    Why go against tradition, when we can admit defeat,
    Live in Decline, be the victim of our own design?

  18. #18
    I yam what I yam,
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    Allie: Maybe it's the Houston area water, (I'm in Friendswood) but I have studied the WHY question you pose for a lot of years. In fact I explored it in a book I turned into my Ph.D. Dissertation. I find almost 100% agreement with your posting starting this thread. The tug of war between those who espouse NATURE and those who proclaim the force of NURTURE goes on as it has since Moses went floating on the Nile. I don't believe either argument set can be conclusively proven by rigid science. At the same time, I believe we are hard wired in some elements and in some we possess fairly wide latitude in which "nurture" can influence who, how, what we eventuate in being. Since the concepts of Masculine and Feminine are, as far as I can determine, essentially socially defined and differentiated, science seeking to make a finite construct of them is shooting at moving targets. The assortment of human traits that are roughly divided by various societies into three "piles"... masculine, feminine, and androgenic all are common to all humans. When the Blue or Pink balloons are declared in the Delivery Room, enormous forces, both intentional and unintentional are set in motion to form the neonate into the blue or pink camp depending on which set of genitals are seen. NO CHOICE of how the individual turns out is left to the neonate. ... And so it goes... hard wire or training??? I believe in the HARD WIRING theory. Granny...

  19. #19
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    Wen...I do respect your opinion even though we disagree on what affect research could have.

    I think our disagreement is more on the affect of the research proving we are born this way. You seam to think that proving we are born this way is a negative and will cause us to be considered a condition. I believe that proving we are born this way is empowering.

    If we all knew that this wasn't a choice then we wouldn't be so afraid of it or wouldn't feel so ashamed of it. Most people that are ashamed that they are TG hide it and do their best to be the same as everyone else. If you are by nature different and fight to be the same that is what causes all the major psychological issues that a lot of TG people are experiencing. They binge and purge, fell ashamed, fight the need, give in to the need, bing and purge and the same distructive process starts over again.

    I also know that my wife believes I was born this way and didn't have a choice. She believes that I can not change the way I was born. If she didn't believe that, if she believed that this was my choice then she wouldn't be supportive of my dressing. She would ask me to choose not to dress. I mean, since I can choose not to why not choose not to? Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just choose not to? Lucky for me, my wife is very supportive because she knows I would be very unhappy if I try to suppress who I was born to be. She doesn't want me to be unhappy.

    On the topic of "free will" we don't really have "free will" to choose everything. I can't choose to be born with the body of a man or a woman. I can't choose to be tall or be short. I can't choose to be black or white. I'm born that way. Some things are predetermined genetically. I think this is the same.

    Choice is about how we play the cards we are dealt. I choose to believe that I was born this way and had no choice on that. I choose to exhibit my femininity as much as possible. I also choose to enjoy it.

    Just because you are born a tall, black man doesn't mean you'll be happy. You have to choose to be a happy tall, black man.

    I do agree with you on a lot of points and I applaud your attitude.

    Thanks for the spirited debate. This is how we develop our beliefs and work through how we are going to play the cards.

    Kisses,

    Allie

  20. #20
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    In as much that crossdressing is outside the norm, it can be termed as deviant behaviour. I am of the opinion that this is not a matter of choice or nurture, but of nature.

    At the risk of causing a storm of protest, look at other groups "outside the norm". I am not trying to classify what is or is not acceptable. Homosexuals are shown in many instances to have brain variations compared to heterosexuals. Therefore can it be called a lifestyle choice. Consider the pain caused to so many I fail to see that it can be by choice.

    Consider now our "normal" sexual preferences. I prefer oriental ladies, some prefer blondes or brunettes for example. Do we choose our preference? No, it is a feeling within.

    Sexual deviants such as paedophiles and rapists commit what to most of us are horrific crimes. Do they choose to act this way? I think not and although they should be segregated from society for the benefit of the victims, are they not themselves victims of a lifestyle not of their choosing.

    I never wanted to be a crossdresser or transvestite or whatever other term may apply. As with many others, I have tried to abstain, I have purged and made myself stressed and ill. I don't do drink or drugs,and I don't smoke, so can it be justly said that I am weak willed?

    I know that I would not choose a "deviant " lifestyle. I think we should be thankful that our behaviour is harmless.

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    Thanks for the comments Granny.

    The main reason I don't believe in the NURTURE theory is that I was NEVER exposed to anything that would make me this way. I was born in a Christian family and went to church every time the door was open. My parents were good people that never did anything wrong. They were firm but loving. I love and respect them and always have. My mother wasn't dominate. My father wasn't an ass so I didn't grow up hating men. I was the oldest of 3 boys. No girls in sight. I never played with girls stuff. I was raised in the country and we rarely even saw any other people. We spent most of our time in the woods, riding bicycles, shooting guns, spitting. All the stuff boys do.

    So why do I do what I do? Why do I feel more comfortable when I am a woman than a man? Not just dressed as a woman...acting like a woman too.

    You know, I don't know. I may never know. But trying to figure it out hasn't made me miserable. It has made me think my way through all of it and get a better understanding of myself...in all respects. It has also made me a lot more tolerant of other people and their differences.

    Kisses,

    Allie

  22. #22
    The Anima Corrupt Wen4cd's Avatar
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    Allie, thanks. As long as feeling you were born a certain way doesn't cause you to lose respect for yourself, who can ask for more?

    I guess we sometomes forget we speak from ourselves, that what's right for me might not be right for everybody.

    My wife doesn't think I was born this way, and she still accepts me, still encourages me to dress. She says she's lucky she got one of the unique ones She just thinks I'm her type, and she knows I know she's just as unique in her own ways.

    In my view, I was separated from part of myself through childhood (deviation) and dressing is a reclaiming of it and keeping of it, a being whole.

    I feel I became a crossdresser maybe at age 2-3, and not age -6months is all. It's essentially the same effect as 'born this way' since it's before one can remember or do anything about it, or blame myself for it in any way. Only it's just not in physical terms. The need is the same.

    But it's got the essential difference that as an adult, I can exercise the free choice to either embrace it or hate it. It's still who I am, just not what I am.

    And for some reason, that makes all the difference in the world to me.
    Last edited by Wen4cd; 08-25-2009 at 04:16 PM.
    And so we go, on with our lives...
    We know the Truth, but prefer Lies.
    Lies are simple, simple is Bliss.
    Why go against tradition, when we can admit defeat,
    Live in Decline, be the victim of our own design?

  23. #23
    Gold Member Kaitlyn Michele's Avatar
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    I think Wen is making a great point and perhaps is a bit misunderstood..

    looking for a reason or a cause for our situation can imply that there is something wrong with it...

    you don't ask yourself WHY you are musically gifted, or why you can't do math...you are just that way and live your life accordingly...it's just assumed there is nothing wrong, nothing to fix..

    you may try harder, you may practice violin, or avoid math..its up to you...

    the "choice/non choice" to express yourself as a woman, whether by fetish dressing, outward crossdressing, fantasizing in your mind, or being transsexual should be no different than the choice of what college to go to, or whether to avoid math, or anything else you choose..to say that the act of crossdressing is a choice is a moot point...you choose just about everything you do except breathe and go to the bathroom (i'm sure i'm missing some, just making a point)...your choices result in consequences...dont want to eat? starve...want to booze your life away?...go ahead, but you will pay...i dont think there can be a debate about it..choosing to crossdress has consequences...and we just deal with them..

    on the other hand, you could debate whether we choose to WANT TO CROSSDRESS...i have a view on that (we don't) , but there is room for arguement here but that brings me to the answer of so what...to want to crossdress is departing from the norm (ie deviating from the norm)....
    but so is liking brussel sprouts, so is being 7 feet tall, or even being left handed....what a bunch of deviants those left handed basketball players are!..either way, you don't choose to be 7' tall or what foods you like from birth...

    deviant is just a word...
    1. deviating or departing from the norm; characterized by deviation: deviant social behavior.

    2. a person or thing that deviates or departs markedly from the accepted norm.

    but in our society it has very negative connotations so it can be upsetting to many of us to be called that...and using it to describe us is usually meant in that negative way ...its that one word in the definition "accepted" that does..
    if you want to be accepted, it hurts to be called deviant..

    so we ask "why?" because we want to be accepted, or perhaps we are struggling to accept ourselves....and of course we really don't know why which makes it even harder to get that acceptance...btw --nothing wrong with wanting to accepted either..want a high paying job? to be a teacher? a construction worker? well you almost always have to conform to societies wishes..

    what is wrong with being different than others?

    unfortunately we are bombarded from birth by society before we ever get the chance to chime in and say wait a sec, i don't fit into your definition of what I SHOULD BE!!...that's the problem.... It's doesnt have to be viewed as a problem to have variant genes or variant hormones in your natal development...it just is.... it's a vital part of being human


    david bowie has some genetic deviation that gave him gorgeous different color eyes and incredible musical talent...do people say lets fix that!!!! i dont think so .

    So in the end, i think asking why puts us behind the eight ball right from the start.

    don't get me wrong, i'm curious as to the why but in the end, i am coming to the point of simply saying i don't care..

    if we somehow really found out why, i dont think it will help us be accepted at all..."society" may kill us before we are born, or may somehow eliminate the gene or "hormone issue" that makes me me....

    just my

  24. #24
    Gold Member Samantha B L's Avatar
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    Allie, I wanted to add to my remarks that while I think this is probably inherited,this ain't a "disorder" and it shouldn't be treated like one. It's just a simple thing like having a patchy/ruddy complexion that you inherited from your Dad or Mom or Early graying of your hair from someone in your Grandma or Grandpa's family tree. That's all. Therapists can help give the person some direction and perspective but not if the therapists are squeemish about LGBT and TG/TS/CD stuff and they try to use strong arm ploys to get the person to "cut it out" and conform to standards of "normal behavior" from the 1940's and 1950's. Actually,I don't think that happens nowadays but I do think that many counselars and therapists are turned off by lengthy talks about this sort of thing because they feel like it's not in their expertise. But it's not a "disorder" at all.

  25. #25
    Aspiring Member Jaclyn NM's Avatar
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    I have never thought that I wanted to be a genetic female, however I have always loved wearing female clothing. I don't know what that makes me other than a crossdresser. Why? I have no idea, but it's just the way I am, and I have come to accept it, and love the person I am.

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