An intellectual discussion on social acceptance (tomboys vs girls like us)

[TGMarla]

When women "crossdress", which is a big fat exaggeration anyway, they do not do so in the same way I do when I put on a skirt or a dress. They are not doing so in order to emulate men. They are not taking any extra steps in order to appear to the rest of humanity as a man. But when I crossdress, I wear breasts, a wig, and for all appearances, look like a woman. Society isn't so worked up about bending the genders a little, but it does get worked up about the full boat. Women (usually) arent' binding their breasts and putting a bulge in their jeans, or trying on a suit and tie in order to look like men. Instead, they take a style of clothing that used to be reserved for men, and make it their own. I don't choose to appear as a man wearing clothing choices that are reserved for women. I choose to emulate a woman in the full sense.

Big difference, and not comparable on any level. One has nothing to do with the other.

[battybattybats]

Regardless, your point is moot. You may be right on paper, but it doesn't change how things really are.(societies view) Wouldn't it be nice if.........

And societies views get reformed.

By people pointing out where its wrong and having the courage to do so till enough people grok it.

And how things really are is the scientific truth of sex and gender diversity. It's not even rare but common. Society has hidden it and hidden from it (or at least modern western society has) but societies views are not the truth. The world was not flat, women were not inherantly inferior, indiginous peoples were not sub-human. Gender is not binary.

And as for everyones remarks about pants-wearing can we all please recognise the importance of transgender and lesbian women to womens equality including pants-wearing?

I know that the straight cis women did their best to excise them from the movement and it's history but the rebellious 'passing women' daring to dress to pass as men and even marry other women or fight in wars were inspiring to many feminists. The daring lesbian underground fashions of Germany and Paris involving actual FtM crossdressing was often the lead in the whole women-in-pants fashion.

Short hair too!

[JenJenNumber9]

So, as women's fashion has changed, men's fashion has changed to compensate and support the binary. For example, as short shorts have became very popular on women, they are now viewed as a faux pas on men. When this happens and the binary is well suppported, we still have ample visual clues whether someone is male or female. Many people want that to be something that can easily be determined and are uncomfortable with living in a world where it is difficult to identify the gender of a person quickly and easily. Ever since razors were invented and men could shave their beards (the most emasculating grooming practice there is), mankind has been confronted with finding a way to determine gender via adornment, clothing, grooming practices, etc.

However, there is a counter-cultural movement against the gender binary and we are all members of this movement; some more visibly than others.

I don't think this explains everything but I think it is part of the equation.

[Ingrid1999]

I know I look at this issue from an American perspective,which is rather behind. Is social acceptance closer perhaps in some more liberal countries like the Netherlands or Sweeden or Denmark?

[DemonicDaughter]

[SIZE="3"]Oh for the love of...

You know, I don't know where anyone gets that women don't get harassed for what they wear, feminine or otherwise.

If a woman wears short skirts, she's considered a ****.

If a woman wears a long flowing skirt, she's a hippy.

If a woman wears all black, she's a goth.

If a woman wears "masculine" clothes, she's a lesbian.

So on and so forth.

I for one, and SICK AND TIRED of being shoved into a label so people can feel justified in wearing what they want to wear.

Stop it with the "GGs get to do this" and "GGs get to do that" crap! We also get to be harassed on levels apparently many on here seem to be oblivious to.

WHO CARES?!

Honestly!

Listen, you wear what you want to. I'll wear what I want to. I promise not to make assumptions about you, your life, your sexuality, etc. and we can go along our merry little way.

Please stop making it sound as if every other social group (and that's what you're categorizing women as at the moment) has it oh-so-much easier.

Just get up, get dressed and stop worrying about who can wear what. Just do it. Stop trying to find justification for it. Just do it.

What's the worse that's going to happen? Someone questions your "manhood". A huge portion of the cders on here do that for themselves. [/SIZE]

[Gerard]

Thank you.

I didn't want to participate in this thread because I'm sick of beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to say thanks for making this point.

And I want to thank you for posting as you can't have a discussion without multiple view points.

Now as to the topic at hand.

We used to have a society with strict lines defining gender, not only in clothes, but also in jobs and other behaviours. Feminism has been a lot about crossing those lines with the goal of getting women seen as equals of men. It has also become somewhat easier for men to cross those traditional lines but is seems to be a slower process.

On the other hand, like others already posted, part of it is because the Feminism movement is not about women trying to be men but about having equal rights. Women trying to be men still have the same problems as the other way around. A woman with a beard has no easier time than a man in a dress for example. People still get upset and confused if you cross the gender lines.

What often leads to confusion on this forum, is that there are two kinds of people here, those that want to be the opposite sex, and those that want to cross the gender lines. Their behaviour might be similar, but their mindsets are not.

What has changed over time is where the gender lines are drawn, and a lot have become fuzzy, some don't exist any more.

We as a community still run into problems if we try to cross the lines that remain.

-------------------------

So we should try and ask, what has made lines change, become more fuzzy or disappear in the past and can we use that?

I find that a hard question to answer.

Some of it has to do with having a reason for crossing the gender line, that ends up getting accepted by society at large, but that's far from the entire story.

Maybe someone else can come up with some good answers to this question?

[rosetyler]

I disagree. Not all CDs try to pass as a girl. Myself and several other girls on the website choose to be men in skirts, heels, and other items buy don't try to pass as female. We are both genders rolled into one.

Which is why I wrote that it's a goal of *many*, not all.

[battybattybats]

On the other hand, like others already posted, part of it is because the Feminism movement is not about women trying to be men but about having equal rights. Women trying to be men still have the same problems as the other way around. A woman with a beard has no easier time than a man in a dress for example. People still get upset and confused if you cross the gender lines.

But part of feminism was about Lesbians and Trans guys!

Phobes amongst feminism directly and deliberately expelled them from feminst groups as they neared their goals just as the black-vote movement dropped the womens vote movement in Americs as they neared their goals.

And later feminists tried to revise their history to make it look like a white-based middle-class straight cis movement.

But many of the early pioneers from free-love Mary Walstonecraft author of The Rights Of Women and mother of Frankenstein author Mary Shelley to the crossdressing women in the nightclubs and the 'Molly' lesbian prostitutes on the streets of London were the ones pushing the boundaries at the very start and were an essential part of the movement in all its eras.

[Satrana]

Why are tomboys so accepted?

Simple. Women acquiring male behavior is about power, males acquiring female behavior is deemed to be about sex. The former is acceptable, the latter is considered deviant.

Secondly feminism. This is NOT just about getting equal rights, feminism is primarily about social engineering, getting women to compete/better men by borrowing the "best" bits from masculinity. There is no equivalent masculine movement trying to do this.

Conclusion. Women now live a transgendered lifestyle even if they are not TG themselves as individuals, they have been pushed this way by social forces.

[Metoo]

[SIZE="4"]I'm new to the forum and seem people use the term GG. I don't to seem naive, but I not sure what GG stands for. Please would someone let me know.[/SIZE]

[Sammy777]

[SIZE="4"]I'm new to the forum and seem people use the term GG. I don't to seem naive, but I not sure what GG stands for. Please would someone let me know.[/SIZE]

GG stands for Genetic Girl.
A person born with a female body.

[Noxvictum]

I have my own theory, personally. I believe our minds are all based on a basic tribal set up. Of course, you'd have to prescribe to the theory of evolution, as well. The three basic types of pre-human would be child, adult, and outcast. The child learns to be an adult from the adults, and the outcasts scavenge on the outside of the basic society. The only reason this matters is because it's possibly ingrained in us that different is bad. For that kind of society, I imagine it would be. We may have moved on to bigger and better things, but the building blocks from that stage in evolution are still there. I have faith that eventually we'll grow past it, it's just gonna take awhile.

[Wen4cd]

I have my own theory, personally. I believe our minds are all based on a basic tribal set up. Of course, you'd have to prescribe to the theory of evolution, as well. The three basic types of pre-human would be child, adult, and outcast. The child learns to be an adult from the adults, and the outcasts scavenge on the outside of the basic society. The only reason this matters is because it's possibly ingrained in us that different is bad. For that kind of society, I imagine it would be. We may have moved on to bigger and better things, but the building blocks from that stage in evolution are still there. I have faith that eventually we'll grow past it, it's just gonna take awhile.

You forgot "Witch-Doctor/Shaman/Medicine Man," etc... which was our place back in the day. Different; not a part of the core group, yet not outcast, but respected. The physically flawed or the most sociopathic were outcast, but the the eccentric were revered for great wisdom.

[The Gas Man Cometh]

[SIZE="3"]Oh for the love of...

You know, I don't know where anyone gets that women don't get harassed for what they wear, feminine or otherwise.

If a woman wears short skirts, she's considered a ****.

If a woman wears a long flowing skirt, she's a hippy.

If a woman wears all black, she's a goth.

If a woman wears "masculine" clothes, she's a lesbian.

So on and so forth.

I for one, and SICK AND TIRED of being shoved into a label so people can feel justified in wearing what they want to wear.

Stop it with the "GGs get to do this" and "GGs get to do that" crap! We also get to be harassed on levels apparently many on here seem to be oblivious to.

WHO CARES?!

Honestly!

Listen, you wear what you want to. I'll wear what I want to. I promise not to make assumptions about you, your life, your sexuality, etc. and we can go along our merry little way.

Please stop making it sound as if every other social group (and that's what you're categorizing women as at the moment) has it oh-so-much easier.

Just get up, get dressed and stop worrying about who can wear what. Just do it. Stop trying to find justification for it. Just do it.

What's the worse that's going to happen? Someone questions your "manhood". A huge portion of the cders on here do that for themselves. [/SIZE]

I totally agree with you! I know it can be tough to "just do it," but that's the only way transphobia is going to be overcome. The worst that can happen, is someone can get bashed or killed for dressing in public. But I bet there's always more to it than that. Maybe they went in some dark alleyway alone at night, or tred usual places that people get bashed or killed, sometimes for simply being there and not always just because they're in DRAG.
I agree that when a person says, "GGs can do this and I can't IT'S NOT FAIR!" That it's a copout. CDers can do it, some of them just won't. However, I did say it can be tough. One has to be brave to overcome transphobia.

Just last night, I was out in public in a crowded place with a CDing friend of mine. She was in total DRAG, and I watched around her as hardly anyone cared or took any notice.
She's a blithering mess of nerves and if she can do it, any CDer can.

[Noxvictum]

You forgot "Witch-Doctor/Shaman/Medicine Man," etc... which was our place back in the day. Different; not a part of the core group, yet not outcast, but respected. The physically flawed or the most sociopathic were outcast, but the the eccentric were revered for great wisdom.

No, i didn't forget. I'm talking about when this all started, when we were just very social apes.

[Veronica Lacey]

I often wonder if our human programming for survival is stronger than we give it credit for.

What I mean is that a long-standing function of each gender is that man=hunter/protector and woman=caregiver/nurturer/gatherer.

When I see my mother I think caring person, somebody to help me empathize and learn to cooperate with others. When I see my father I think strength and somebody who brought home the bacon and protected us from the world.

If I saw my father in a dress I think it would disrupt my programming and I would wonder who is going to make sure the world does not hurt us? Even with my acceptance of wearing dresses I would think it was wrong to see him like this, that something was misfiring in society.

I suspect that there are still many societies in the world that follow strict tenets and rites of passage in order to preserve this age-old order of gender for the sake of survival. Some of these guidelines seem extreme to me but my opinion is born from the luxury of gadgets and shopping malls, mass transit and credit cards, do what you want and want all you want.

Since humans have prospered and we can shop in grocery stores etc rather than hunt and gather our food and make our own clothes - just survive - we may have simply allowed ourselves to experience more sides of life that generations of centuries past and that would include common versions of crossdressing that we witness in these forums. We can enjoy our spare time in any way we choose as we are not bloodying ourselves just trying to sustain ourselves. We are still in the process of reprogramming centuries of survival presets and I would imagine that it takes more than a couple of generations to override them.

Anyway, no judgments just a thought or two for discussion.

[battybattybats]

I have my own theory, personally. I believe our minds are all based on a basic tribal set up. Of course, you'd have to prescribe to the theory of evolution, as well. The three basic types of pre-human would be child, adult, and outcast. The child learns to be an adult from the adults, and the outcasts scavenge on the outside of the basic society. The only reason this matters is because it's possibly ingrained in us that different is bad. For that kind of society, I imagine it would be. We may have moved on to bigger and better things, but the building blocks from that stage in evolution are still there. I have faith that eventually we'll grow past it, it's just gonna take awhile.

A huge portion of our advancement has depended totally on the different.

The Aspergers give us mots of our technological advancements.

The schizophrenics and their relatives much of our art and culture.

The psychopaths and powerpaths drive progress and competition.

The 'norms' live and prosper on the backs of the weird.

We have two nearest relatives genetically, the Chimpanzee and the Bonobo.

Chimps are murderous, violent, rape, suspicious and hostile towards the strange and different and have a physical power of the males based social system.

Bonobos are friendly and caring and have a society based on matriarchy and massive sexual orgies!

Humans appear to have both traits.. and much of history can be seen as a conflict between chimp-like and bonobo-like genes in our species.

You forgot "Witch-Doctor/Shaman/Medicine Man," etc... which was our place back in the day. Different; not a part of the core group, yet not outcast, but respected. The physically flawed or the most sociopathic were outcast, but the the eccentric were revered for great wisdom.

Indeed that has been the role of TGs in many cultures. But in some our role was more in child-rearing and home making. Some allowed FtMs to take prominant military roles.

But our being wiped from social understanding and driven into hiding and obscutrity is in much of the world only a couple centuries old. We all need to learn and rember that society is NOT naturally anto TG. It has become so using force only recently in humanities existence.

I often wonder if our human programming for survival is stronger than we give it credit for.

What I mean is that a long-standing function of each gender is that man=hunter/protector and woman=caregiver/nurturer/gatherer.

Not true! (I have family members with degrees in archaeology, anthropology, paleolithic rock-art and I once did work with the team that unearthed the 'hobbit' find Homo Floresiensis).

If women stayed home we'd be extinct. Google the megafauna that lived in Australia when humans forst got here. Marsupial lions with stronger bite force than a T-Rex! 40 foot long carniverous lizards!

Every tribe member was needed for food gathering. The gatherers needed to be able to fight off saber-toothed tigers and dire-wolves and Thylecoleo Carnifex while the hunters were out after mammoths and diprotodon for often a week or more at a time.

Women could not have been weak and humanity survive. Besides a number of hunter-gatherer societies in recent history did not have the strict gender based split.

[Bev06 GG]

[SIZE="3"]You know, I don't know where anyone gets that women don't get harassed for what they wear, feminine or otherwise.


Stop it with the "GGs get to do this" and "GGs get to do that" crap! We also get to be harassed on levels apparently many on here seem to be oblivious to.


. [/SIZE]

You took the words right out of my Mouth DD. And I hate to be the one to point this out ladies, but CDs are the worst offenders when it comes to criticising what we GGs wear. I am often criticised by my CD friends for not wearing girly clothes and making the most of my femininity. So much so that I dont even comment now other than to raise an eyebrow and utter the words POT KETTLE and BLACk.
take care
Bev

[Pink Person]

Most other people don’t believe that TG people have positive social value. In one common argument, TG people are viewed as having negative value because we are perceived to have negated our natural sex and gender. We are perceived as people who have an artificial sex and artificial gender. Our artificial sex and gender is deemed to be inferior to the natural sex and gender of other people.

Furthermore, artificial femaleness and artificial femininity are viewed as the lowest forms of any possible sex and gender expression. This is the case because we are prone to believe there is one best form of everything including sex and gender. The absurdity of this belief does not register with a large number of people. Consequently, males are widely ranked as superior to females, and masculinity is widely ranked as superior to femininity.

Life will improve for everyone when social majorities stop believing in gender monism (one uniform superior gender) or gender dualism (two uniform superior genders) and start respecting gender pluralism (diverse types of each gender).

[Sammy777]

[SIZE="3"]
You know, I don't know where anyone gets that women don't get harassed for what they wear, feminine or otherwise.

Stop it with the "GGs get to do this" and "GGs get to do that" crap! We also get to be harassed on levels apparently many on here seem to be oblivious to.

Listen, you wear what you want to. I'll wear what I want to.[/SIZE]

Why are tomboys so accepted?

Simple. Women acquiring male behavior is about power, males acquiring female behavior is deemed to be about sex. The former is acceptable, the latter is considered deviant.

Simple ....... Yes. But not in the way your thinking.
Why are tomboys so accepted?
Why? Because a lot/most/some men in general on some level find it attractive. Or they simply just think that a tomboy is more approachable then a girly girl.

But on the flip side [ie-Woman] until recently the age old image of what is a man has been Mr rugged, The Marlboro man, big strong tuff, ect ect ect.
The new kinder gentler man, the shaving more then their faces, pretty boy, metrosexual types are still somewhat new. I guess you can call it a start.
[Please don't mind the generalisms in the above statement ]

What I mean is that a long-standing function of each gender is that man= hunter/ protector and woman= caregiver/ nurturer/ gatherer.

When I see my mother I think caring person,
When I see my father I think strength and somebody who brought home the bacon and protected us from the world.

But that is not always the case, even more so today.
What if your father was never around, or your mother maybe?

My mom was divorced long before it was fashionable to be.
So growing up she was the caregiver as well as the bread winner and protector.

Just like a lot of single moms are today.

A huge portion of our advancement has depended totally on the different.

The 'norms' live and prosper on the backs of the weird.

OH How true! And proven in the following statement:

"A rational man changes himself to suit his surroundings.
An irrational man changes his surroundings to suit himself."

Basically - every advancement done by the human race through out all of history has been made/done by irrational people.

So if it wasn't for all the weird/ outcast/ crazy/ diff/ Not normal people we would still be living in caves,

[battybattybats]

But on the flip side [ie-Woman] until recently the age old image of what is a man has been Mr rugged, The Marlboro man, big strong tuff, ect ect ect.
The new kinder gentler man, the shaving more then their faces, pretty boy, metrosexual types are still somewhat new. I guess you can call it a start.[/B]
[Please don't mind the generalisms in the above statement ]

Ahhh... but thats not always been the case! The Dandy, the effeminate yet attractive elegant man has been the sex symbol of the past.

Eunach singers were chased by women and men for their beauty!

Male fashions have in the past been at times very feminine.

[Satrana]

Because a lot/most/some men in general on some level find it attractive. Or they simply just think that a tomboy is more approachable then a girly girl.

Or maybe men find women desirable irregardless of what clothes are worn, after all men are thinking about what she looks like with the clothes off! Women on the other hand can feel threatened and lost when men feminize their appearance. Unfamiliarity with feminine men is a minor part of the issue as many long term relationships with CDs suffer from problems that run much deeper than unfamiliarity.

but in fact it's not society as a whole that rejects us -- it's certain men who reject us; one rarely hears about CDs having trouble from women and in my experience it's never happened.

It is rare for CDs to have trouble from anyone. But when it does happen, one of the main culprits are teenage girls. And that is my experience too.

Actually we are rejected equally by small minded people, men and women alike. Women are more likely to keep their thoughts to themselves though. If you believed that the public face people put on reflected their true feelings about us then we would believe women thought CDs were wonderful, but we know that when relationships become intimate the majority of women have major problems with us.

We need to stop thinking in gender stereotypes and believing men and women think about us differently. The issues we face are about prejudice and ignorance which are spread equally through both sexes. Most people think CDs are gays dressing up as women for sex.

[JenniferZ2009]

I totally disagree with and hate the fact that some people see those who CD or are TG as lying to others. It is when I am not dressed up that I am lying. At least it was, I have made a decision to start transitioning and made my first appointment with a therapist. I now shave my arms and don't feel awkward acting myself. I was raised thinking that was bad and wrong behavior for a boy. But I am not a boy, not in my mind and body and soul. Like the song "Man I feel like a woman" and I have finally accepted it.

My entire life I have felt like a girl. My first friend was a tomboy and I was so jealous that I was not her.

I do not push myself on others and I am transitioning as politely as I can and not throwing it around for everyone to see and deal with.

It is me trying to be honest and not be a liar.

[Sammy777]

Ahhh... but thats not always been the case!
The Dandy, the effeminate yet attractive elegant man has been the sex symbol of the past.

Male fashions have in the past been at times very feminine.

The Dandy? When???
Go back to say the 40's/50's - I don't think any of say Hollywood's men looked effeminate. Hell even Rock Hudson was considered a manly man's man, [if they only knew lol].

Male fashions = feminine?
Again No. Why? Because even when men openly wore silk, lace, wigs, tights, side button pants, rounded [peter pan type] shirt collars, skirts, ect, ect, it was not ever considered feminine because at the time it was considered current Men's fashion.

Granted looking back today you can say that, but not at the time that stuff was in fashion for men.

[Sammy777]

Or maybe men find women desirable irregardless of what clothes are worn, after all men are thinking about what she looks like with the clothes off!

While in some ways true, it is also in other ways wrong.

What a person wears most often reflects that persons personality.

A "tomboy" usually has completely different personality traits then a "girly girl" does.

They not only dress differently, but the two usually interact with males [and other girls] in completely different ways.

There is a lot more going on then just what is under the clothes, even for the most dim whitted - uh mmm pretty girl, gimmie gimmie, sex crazed, hormone overdriven male on the planet.

No offense to all the "sex crazed, hormone overdriven" males who might happen to be out there.