My world - and mine alone! ?

[LisaM]

Stephanie,

You have posed a wonderful question and it can lead in many directions.

What other types of behaviors can be considered selfish? Forget about golf and hunting---what about shopping? or talking on the phone? What about getting dressed for a party? My SO loves to get dressed for a party. She generally spends about 1 - 1 1/2 hours getting ready and she really loves it. Is she guilty of being selfish? She could probably get ready in half the time.

I happen to agree with Rhonda Jean---people choose to call CDing selfish because they don't think it is "normal". Shopping is normal so you can spend hours and hours shopping and it is ok.

[ReineD]

What I have not heard from are the GG's. Can I get a little perspective from someone who doesn't "live it" yet lives with it?

If we lived in a society that accepted male, female, and trans genders it would be 'normal' to express transness and no sacrifice would be necessary. Selfishness in expressing any gender would not exist. Still it would behoove partners to disclose in the beginning of their relationship their gender and sexuality.

But in our current society I see the balancing point as being a matter of adapting to the existing environment; of taking it as far as it can be taken while still maintaining necessary support systems such as jobs, families, etc. It can be a precarious balance and the balancing point will be different for everyone, depending on both the barriers that can realistically be overcome and the strength of the desire to live as femme. Even the 'selfish point' is in a different place now than it was 30 years ago. Then it might have been considered selfish to indulge, period. Now, it might be considered selfish to insist on attending a parent/teacher conference while dressed.

It would be much more feasible and less selfish for a TG who is fortunate enough to work for a company that supports gender rights to live full time. Add to that a supportive partner, and there are almost no barriers to overcome, save perhaps having a smaller social circle than the couple might have otherwise. Even then, if they live in a progressive area they might construct their social lives to not notice any societal bias.

But if a TG wants to live full time AND (and this is important) equally wants to keep her job with a company that isn't quite as progressive, and if she has a spouse and young children with whom it would be difficult to be 'out', it might not be such a hardship to find an different balancing point than the TG in the above example. Adaptation. I've read this many times in this forum.

Of course if she is TS, it is an entirely different matter, having forged bonds with a spouse who did not know the extent of the gender dysphoria. Would it then be selfish for each partner to realize their paths have diverged? Would it be selfish to insist on rearing children in a relationship where neither parent is happy?

But for non-TSs, in our unenlightened society it takes a very strong marriage to navigate the issues surrounding being trans. Considering our very high divorce rates, it is not surprising so many marriages fail when CDing is involved. But to blame the failure of these marriages solely on the CDing and the CDer's 'selfishness' is not fair, in my opinion. In this situation neither the CDer nor the spouse see their unhappy marriage as a precious asset they do not wish to give up, or one or the other simply cannot get past denial. Otherwise, the couple would be able to make allowances and compromises.

I compare balancing points in TG marriages to the concept of elasticity that results in market equilibrium in the theory of supply and demand. It is dependent on the supply of love and understanding vs. the individuals' needs within the relationship and their ability to reach compromises they can live with. Unless the TG partner is TS, of course [edit]: in which case the partner either fully supports or does not.

[AKAMichelle]

It's simple, his wife doesn't have to be rude. All I ask is she be civil.
Summer

I wasn't going to get into my situation much. The one thing that I would appreciate is that she understood how I felt about the comments which she makes. The more she cuts me down = the farther away I want to be. I don't fault her for any of her feelings except for the jabs which she contantly takes to ridicule and belittle me. That is not the kind of behavior which promotes a good relationship.

[Stephanie Miller]

So Michelle, Without going through your history and reading past posts first I am just assuming that you told your wife about Michelle AFTER you were married? If so, did she act this way about TS?TG?CD'ism before you wee married too? Or is she only acting this way after? If after, is she taking here agression/distate of this out on you? If she acted this way prior - then why are you suprised or hurt?
That is the point of my post:
At what point are we infringing on other people? Is this O.K. to do? Is there an amount of "infringment" that needs to be done so our acceptance is ... well, accepted? And is there a point where we cross the line just to fullfill our own needs? Even at the expense on terminating prior obligations.

[AKAMichelle]

So Michelle, Without going through your history and reading past posts first I am just assuming that you told your wife about Michelle AFTER you were married? If so, did she act this way about TS?TG?CD'ism before you wee married too? Or is she only acting this way after? If after, is she taking here agression/distate of this out on you? If she acted this way prior - then why are you suprised or hurt?
That is the point of my post:
At what point are we infringing on other people? Is this O.K. to do? Is there an amount of "infringment" that needs to be done so our acceptance is ... well, accepted? And is there a point where we cross the line just to fullfill our own needs? Even at the expense on terminating prior obligations.

Now you have done it, you have pulled it out of me. <VBG>

When we met she was always a girly girl and I was very masculine which I still am most of the time. I thought that the feelings had finally gone away so I didn't tell her. After she rounds of getting new clothes and purging, I got sick of the rollercoaster emotional ride. So in Jan 2008, I told her. Now she had caught me 15 years before in one of her dresses, but that is ancient history and a whopper that I had to tell to get out of it.

Her reaction was somewhat what I expected. She didn't like it. She thought I was sinning dressing and many other things. Being a devote Baptist she had a lot of beliefs and I was fully aware of them. I hoped that she would accept this about me at least to the point of understanding. I never expected her to see me dressed or go anywhere with me. I knew this much would never happen. I had hoped that she would be for a don't ask - don't tell level of understanding.

Unfortunately that never happened. I accept full responsibility for the situation that I find myself in regards to her acceptance. I hid it from her and now I have to reap what I have sown.

I think we do cross the line sometimes and it is only through communication that the boundaries are set. I don't believe a person should be forced to accept, but a spouse that fails to at least understand how unaccepting comments hurt the other person is being selfish by failing to care about our feelings. If we have an unaccepting spouse, I think we should not talk about cd'ing and try to have a normal life with the white elephant in the room.

Crossdressing is like a brick wall between two people when you have an unaccepting spouse. I think you have to be able to talk about it in order to have a good marriage. In all fairness though, this behavior from my wife is not limited to cd'ing. This is a common tactic of hers to keep me towing the line the way she says. If the problem was limited to cd'ing then we would survive. But since this crosses over into many other areas, I don't see a happy ending with her in the picture. We will all know in the next month or so what the final verdict is regarding our marriage.

[kellycan27]

Michelle,
I'm very sorry for your situation, your wife is just be cruel and selfish.
That is the other side of the table. Stand up for your self and tell her to keep here opinions to her self.
Summer

Just remember that there are two sides to every story.

[ReineD]

Crossdressing is like a brick wall between two people when you have an unaccepting spouse. I think you have to be able to talk about it in order to have a good marriage. In all fairness though, this behavior from my wife is not limited to cd'ing. This is a common tactic of hers to keep me towing the line the way she says. If the problem was limited to cd'ing then we would survive. But since this crosses over into many other areas, I don't see a happy ending with her in the picture. We will all know in the next month or so what the final verdict is regarding our marriage.

How true! You cannot expect a spouse to be willing to jump at the chance to participate, although it would be nice if she did, but at the same time she needs to allow that you have the right to express who you are and to respect you for it. If your wife uses the same controlling tactics in other areas of your marriage, I don't blame you for wanting to find a resolution. It is not right for her to use religious argument and ridicule in order to not face her own demons, her own unwillingness to live and let live. Your wife could easily respect your right to express yourself without being involved in any way, without having to feel as if it was shoved down her throat. I am sorry Michelle, and I hope you can find a way to help your wife begin to understand.

[kellycan27]

How true! You cannot expect a spouse to be willing to jump at the chance to participate, although it would be nice if she did, but at the same time she needs to allow that you have the right to express who you are and to respect you for it. If your wife uses the same controlling tactics in other areas of your marriage, I don't blame you for wanting to find a resolution. It is not right for her to use religious argument and ridicule in order to not face her own demons, her own unwillingness to live and let live. Your wife could easily respect your right to express yourself without being involved in any way, without having to feel as if it was shoved down her throat. I am sorry Michelle, and I hope you can find a way to help your wife begin to understand.

Wasn't it basically "shoved down her throat"? She didn't have a say from the start... So is she just expected to just accept the fact? What about her rights? What about her being able to live comfortably? You blindside her, and she's to blame for not liking what you do? (you used in the general) It always amazes me when people complain about their rights, and then totally ignore the other persons. This is yet another arguement fot honesty being the best policy. And as someone mentioned.. you reap what you sow. Compromise is great if you can do it..if not maybe it's time to walk away and live to fight another day. Life is way too short to be unhappy.. for either party.

[Miranda09]

This really is a great thread Stephanie with alot of very interesting and insightful responses. My take on all of this really has to do with the me, me, me syndrome. As others have said, it's fine to express yourself as a CDer, but one should never force this upon others who are not comfortable with it. As for the children, they should be protected above all else. Children can be very cruel to each other, and this would only provide more ammo for those who like to make fun of others to boost their own insecurities. I sort of liken this to those who insist on forcing their religous beliefs on others, and when they don't accept, they become insensed. Politics can be alot like this as well. CDing is a very special activity for me, and I certainly don't want to taint it by forcing this aspect of my life upon others. But, as with any social issue, people are indeed extremely complex and emotional creatures and CDing seems to really bring this to the surface.
Just one more comment...We as a community want to be accepted by society. It will be a long time before this happens completely and it doesn't help things any by INSISTING that others accept us no matter what. It'll come..it'll just take time!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Steph - yes you are correct...

Rhonda...yes i agree and your point is well taken...

I am trying to make the point that there is nothing wrong with us....we are who we are.....society doesnt generally accept us, and there is so much self hatred and shame in our community it makes it very very difficult to see through it..the golfer is taking advantage of society's acceptance, we are stuck with being not accepted for now...it doesn't make us inherently more selfish is all i'm saying...and the 20 hour a week golfer does not spend alot of his/her time worrying about it

so yes, i have to say there is selfishness in risking societies wrath on our loved ones , but we did not cause this situation. it's not our fault... call it a lifestyle/condition/identity/fetish...whatever you want..we were born this way...a golfer CHOOSES to take huge chunks of time away from the family (btw-i love golf...its just an example ) if OTHER people happily living THEIR OWN LIVES would stop judging us, then we wouldnt try so hard to live in a self imposed closet of shame guilt and fear....but they do, and we do...

for me personally...i rejected myself....i hated myself, i got an MBA, i got a great job, i worked my ass off, i did what all the "other guys" did, got married had kids and tried everything possible, meds, hypnosis to live the life that everyone else wanted me to live...i worried that i am doomed to go to hell (i'm catholic) ....as i slowly disintegrated i kept getting promoted and more visible in our community..i worked harder and cried myself to sleep...i got involved in charity and community service, but finally i decided to kill myself but then quickly rejected that idea....how dare i think that...still i wished to die...every day, then every hour....i avoided all social contact outside my family and job, finally i knew what i had to do, this is my own personal story and i won't hide it....some people hate me for it...i can't control that

after talking to my wife, we stayed together for a while then finally broke up...i take total responsibility and i feel that my weakness hurt her..i would never say a bad thing about her...i still love her and she still counts on me for my unconditional love and support...she says that no matter how hard she tries, she doesnt regret our time together...she is worried that i will be outed in our community and we have worked together to plan out how to handle this eventuality...as for my kids...we love the hell out of each other....if you call my choice to marry a selfish mistake, i can't argue with you, it was....but nobody is perfect...nobody..and my kids are wonderful girls, living fullsome lives..one is 15 and helps autistic children and shelters aniimals...one is 12 and enjoying her life and spends her days hanging out with great friends (most of them know about me)....they love me and i love them...they are quite grounded and upset at my/their plight but are dealing with it...they would not be on this earth but for me....i didnt choose my nature, and they didnt choose their parents...

so my point is that we all tend to grind ourselves down...to feel sorry for ourselves and live a life that everyone else wants us to lead...to say that you will not accept living that way is not selfish...its sad....and for me, it caused me to make mistakes that led to terrible suffering for me and my loved ones and i am forever sorry for that...

but i'm pragmatic and realistic...i'm looking at this through my own experience...i made my bed..but i don't want to die a bitter and lonely man....i want to love myself, i want to be at peace..i don;t want to feel selfish and so i've worked all that out for myself..

just like folks that desperately want to transition, or closeted crossdressers, that can't come out because it makes you feel ashamed and guilty....you have total respect and best wishes from me, and feeling differently than me about it (ie feeling its selfish) is a totally reasonable and sensible way to look at it too...either way, what i wish for all of us is to love ourselves and then make the choices we need to make to follow your own path...and then most of all, to be at peace with your choice...

[battybattybats]

Sometimes the way things appear is the opposite to the way they really are.

An optical illussion is a good example, where something may seem larger than that next to it when in fact its the same size or even smaller.

So when hiding our CDing intially looks like the choice that causes the least harm in our lives it can often cause the most. We can think keeping the secret will protect our parents, friends and family even more than ourselves but before we realise we add a spouse or even children to that equation, people who have a right to know and who will be hurt more the longer it is before they find out if they ever do.

What seemed like avoiding pain just results in more.

And when we finally have to deal with our long-neglected personal needs it looks like self-indulgence because it and the pain it may cause to others is taken out of context from the excessive self-denial and the pain it caused to ourselves and the long-term increase of pain to others from holding back.

While coming out we think will cause too much pain and is often dismissed because of the pain it causes. And we think of it as the selfish option.

But in fact we are not responsible for the fact our society became anti-CD in the past. The pain of us being TG is not our fault. And in general the sooner we come ut the less pain it'll be. the more we wait the worse.

And if we dont our descendants, some perhaps carrying a CD gene and some just random, and kids in our neighbourhoods and their kids will also be CDs in the same boat as us. If we don't bite the bullet and reverse the anti-CD changes to society we put them in our own problem.

Thats why while it seems selfless being in the closet leads to the highest risk of the most pain for the most people.

But its a common human error that the pain that is closest seems worst and the pain further away seems the least...

Just like common optical illussions.

Just one more comment...We as a community want to be accepted by society. It will be a long time before this happens completely and it doesn't help things any by INSISTING that others accept us no matter what. It'll come..it'll just take time!

Educated Women? They insisted. Working Women? Insisted. Black Americans? Insisted. Gays? Insisted. Lesbians? Insisted. Jews? Insisted. Catholics? Insisted... I could go on and cite every persecuted unaccepted minority whose acceptance has increased in human history that I know of. Can you find any or many exceptions? Otherwise we have a myth on our hands.

[Karren H]

Label me the queen of selfishness if you like... And I admit I am... But not when it comes to family.. They come first.. Always.... And money for me is not an issue....... But if there's some time left over I can claim then I will selfishly take it and run.. Just for myself.. I'm not going to use what little time I can ekk out to go enhance the standing of all crossdressers world wide... I'm going to go do what I love to do... If the public or anyone else doesn't like it then screw them...

[TrekGirl1701]

This really is a great thread Stephanie with alot of very interesting and insightful responses. My take on all of this really has to do with the me, me, me syndrome. As others have said, it's fine to express yourself as a CDer, but one should never force this upon others who are not comfortable with it. As for the children, they should be protected above all else. Children can be very cruel to each other, and this would only provide more ammo for those who like to make fun of others to boost their own insecurities. I sort of liken this to those who insist on forcing their religous beliefs on others, and when they don't accept, they become insensed. Politics can be alot like this as well. CDing is a very special activity for me, and I certainly don't want to taint it by forcing this aspect of my life upon others. But, as with any social issue, people are indeed extremely complex and emotional creatures and CDing seems to really bring this to the surface.
Just one more comment...We as a community want to be accepted by society. It will be a long time before this happens completely and it doesn't help things any by INSISTING that others accept us no matter what. It'll come..it'll just take time!

Sorry, Miranda, but I really don't agree with any of this. I've been a closet crossdresser since I was about 12 or 13 (I'm 27 now) and I've had feelings about crossdressing for as long as I can remember. While it's true that I've always been well-liked by my family and teachers and classmates over the years because I never gave them any reason to dislike me, it's also true that by keeping this a secret all these years it has done considerable damage to ME. I'm not naturally shy. It wasn't until I started crossdressing and keeping it a secret that I became an introvert. This, in turn, shattered a lot of my confidence and I've never allowed anybody to get close to me. Each time a good friendship would start forming, I'd push them away because I didn't want them to find out my secret.

So, no, I didn't force my "shameful" lifestyle on anybody, but looking back I sure as hell wish I had.

And batty, I agree with you. When I was born the negative stigma surrounding crossdressing was already there. And it won't go away until we get out there and tell people that they don't have to be afraid of us or hate us.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sorry to post so much...i'm home alone today...heh

mirande...altho it's certainly true that we can't by our insistence MAKE people accept us if they don't want to,

i beleive that if we view this as behaviour that we must not "force" on others, that we must not insist on acceptance, and that we must keep closeted to protect our loved ones at all costs...then we are trapped .....acceptance will NEVER come...

[ReineD]

Wasn't it basically "shoved down her throat"? She didn't have a say from the start... So is she just expected to just accept the fact? What about her rights? What about her being able to live comfortably? You blindside her, and she's to blame for not liking what you do?

Kelly, if for Michelle the CDing was just a hobby, a distasteful hobby according to her wife, that Michelle could take or leave then I agree with your point. But the CDing is an intrinsic part of who she is, and as a human being she does have the right to express herself. She can do so privately without shoving it down her wife's throat. She is not asking or trying to force her wife to participate. Michelle is merely asking to have the dignity to not have to lie about who she is, to not feel as if she is sneaking around doing something "bad". I'm sure if Michelle's wife engaged in activities that Michelle didn't approve of, as long as they were not illegal, Michelle would find something else to do when her wife chose to engage in these activities and it would not take away from the love she feels for her wife?

[Stephanie Miller]

But Kaitlyn, your saying it again. That we NEED to force our agenda/lifestyle or it will not be accepted. And to a point I agree. But to what point? As I asked earlier: "At what point are we infringing on other people? Is this O.K. to do? Is there an amount of "infringment" that needs to be done so our acceptance is ... well, accepted? And is there a point where we cross the line just to fullfill our own needs? Even at the expense on terminating prior obligations. " If Katharine Hepburn wasn't such a strong voice for women to wear pants...well us CD's may be facing a dress shortage today! But did she do it in baby steps? Women show a LOT more skin today than yesteryear. They didn't do it overnight. Are we "pushing" too fast here because we are not fighting for CD acceptance for future generations but "Me" today?

[Rhonda Jean]

A couple of things... First of all, Kaitlyn... I hope I didn't come across as a smart ass. We're at different points in the spectrum. I won't even pretend to know what it must be like for you. I know what you were saying.

As a do-it-yourself psychologist, I've quizzed myself pretty hard on the TS subject, particularly after my ex wife so clearly opined that I'm a woman. For me, first of all I'm pretty happy just being a pretty darn dedicated crossdresser. But what if none of the things like family, job, friends, community, that keep me so tied to my male identity didn't exist? Would I choose to live the rest of my life as a woman? Maybe! As long as we're dealing in fantasy, what I'd really like is to be able to float freely between and inbetween genders at will. Throw in a little more reality, even just adding family to the mix and the answer becomes a definite no. There is a large divide between those who feel the way I do and those who would answer yes, and, as always, several shades in between. Something that's a lot deeper than just our relative attraction to women's clothes. In fact, I suspect that my love of the clothes, makeup, etc. is a great as that of most TS's. It's certainly as great as most women's, so why wouldn't it be? I think we all view these things from a very narrow perspective. Despite our commonality, we are all very different.

I've met only a few mtf transexuals in my life. One (pre-op or non op, not sure, but on hormones and married with children) was as non-feminine of a person as one could ever be, and was dressed as unfeminine as one could be (I'll avoid a detailed description because it'd just be rude and unnecessary. Use your imagination). When we met I was really skinny, short skirt, heels, long hair, fake boobs, big hoop earrings, just-done nails, a pound of makeup. She outweighed me by at least 100 pounds and looked and dressed like she'd just come from the coal mine. I couldn't help thinking, "Who looks like the TS here?" Yet she was dead serious about becoming a woman, and her wife was 110% supportive. It was kind of a revelation to me that being TS isn't necessarily about the clothes, or how you'll look in them. I'm glad I don't have to deal with gender issues on that level. It's tougher than what I do. In some ways, although I HATE the TS down to CD hierarchy, I almost get it on some level. All I want to do is priss around in pretty clothes and go to the beauty shop. They're dealing with life and gender dysphoria in a way that I can't comprehend. No wonder the general public is astonished at both of us.

Now, as far as activism. I'm no activist! In fact, I try to avoid circumstances and people where I feel my being crossdressed would be particularly uncomfortable or offensive. Those situations make ME uncomfortable, and I didn't get all dressed up to go out and be uncomfortable!

Shopping is my deal, and when I'm out I go out of my way to be nice, to smile, and be cheerful. I put in a lot of effort to look as good and as feminine as I possibly can. In that frame of mind, my mannerisms and the way I carry myself seem to naturally become more feminine. Of course, I'd love to unquestionably pass, but I don't. Being read, though, and still being treated warmly is at least as good as passing.

As an example, a few months ago I was at a large thrift store where I'd been many times and the staff was always wonderful to me. I had passed a woman a couple of times in the aisles. A very plainly dressed woman, hair in a ponytail, no makeup, a little taller than me. When we passed, she'd smile a little and give me a quick look-over. I figured I was the first crossdresser she'd ever seen. Then when we were passing in the aisle she said, "Can I tell you something?" I thought, uh oh, here comes a sermon, but I smiled and said yes. She said, "I just had to tell you that you are just so beautiful!" It made me tear up. Makes me tear up just to write it. I managed a "Thank you. That's so nice. I needed that." It was pretty obvious I had tears in my eyes, and she said, "Come here. Can I give you a hug?" We hugged, and I thanked her again, and told her that I also knew she was lieing. She said, "I don't lie, and I'm not talking about just the way you look. You just come across as a beautiful person on the inside as well as the outside."

So there I was, read like a book, yet receiving one of the most moving compliments of my entire life. I don't know if I was the first crossdresser she'd ever seen, but if I was, maybe she came away with a positive impression of crossdressers in general. I try to make a positive impression on people. Maybe that's my activism.

[battybattybats]

But Kaitlyn, your saying it again. That we NEED to force our agenda/lifestyle or it will not be accepted. And to a point I agree. But to what point? As I asked earlier: "At what point are we infringing on other people?

You know thats a really good question!

At what point IS it infringing on someone else?

* When it inconveniences someone else? Why our very existence as CDs when centuries of hard work trying to stamp out CDing have occured inconveniences some people.

* When it flies against Social Mores, conventions or expectation? No those chaged, often only in the last few centuries, to forbid crossdressing. Going against those, just like when accepting women as equals or races as equals or oppossing slavery is the right thing to do. It may distress people for them to have their expectations of 'correct' behaviour flagrantly violated but when they get over that suffering they will be better for it, just like getting over sexist attitudes to women and racist ones etc.

* When it flies against a loved ones expectations? As much as we don't want our families friends and lovers to feel any pain when the expectation they were taught is wrong it is what needs to change, we can try and minimise the growing pains but we're still not infringing on them, only challenging false immoral and unethical beliefs of what is right and wrong.

* When it infringes the human rights of others? It never does. No-one can name a human right infringed intrinsicly by crossdressing. In fact crossdressing itself falls under several clear human rights principles as shown in the Yogyakarta Principles document. Crossdressing is a human right.

So where is the infringement?

Is this O.K. to do?

Is it ok NOT to do? This isn't like wearing a unique hairstyle just to look different, and even that very thing alone is valid and not an infringement but a simple excercise of the most basic and fundamental human rights. No this is about an aspect of humanity that has existed in every culture throughout not just all recorded history but in every unwritten oral history too! That makes us a universal aspect of humanity. A people. With all the same rights and responsibilities of a race or religion or ethnicity.

Is there an amount of "infringment" that needs to be done so our acceptance is ... well, accepted?

Exposing others to our true nature and reality is not an infringement. It's a right and arguably also a responsibility. And standing up and demanding our rights was good enough for women and worked for them, and every other minority thats got anywhere. Is it ok to consider all those wrong? Is it ok to think it was wrong of slaves to demand freedom cause it 'infringed' on slave-owners?

And is there a point where we cross the line just to fullfill our own needs?

No-ones talking about firebombing like some womens rights suffragettes did. Nor violent riots anymore. So unless we do turn to those methods then what line are we really crossing but defying unjust and wrong rules and expectations.

Even at the expense on terminating prior obligations.

When obligations are in conflict we have to consider which should be the highest priority. And that depends on the obligations. We have an unacknowledged obligation to the 37%-54% (dependant on country and study) of TG youth that attempt suicide compared to the male national average in Australia of 8%! And to those CDs who will be in the exact same situation in a decades time if we ourselves do not act to create change.

Whatever we do we must compare our obligations to those children who will die otherwise!

If Katharine Hepburn wasn't such a strong voice for women to wear pants...well us CD's may be facing a dress shortage today! But did she do it in baby steps?

She was just one of a huge number of women who faught for freedom one way or another. There were the hunger-strikers, the fire-bombers, the painting-slashers, the police-attackers, the marchers, the women killed running into the horserace, the women arrested for wearing trousers, the women arrested for wearing 'indecent' swimwear, the out lesbians when it was illegal and got people lobotomised by the state.

And we are talking over 100 years ago! And they won most of their fights!

Women show a LOT more skin today than yesteryear. They didn't do it overnight.

But many tried overnight! And they one a victory at a time. And the most progress happened after the most pushing, the gaps of little progress came when the 'baby steps' arguments were heeded!

Are we "pushing" too fast here because we are not fighting for CD acceptance for future generations but "Me" today?

Compared to who? Compared to those minorities that made major progress we're hardly pushing at all! We are going at a snails pace using marshmallow covered eiderdown pillows!

[Rhonda Jean]

Batty,
You're obviously passionate about this, but even after all this, I'm not sure exactly what it is you want to fight about, or exactly what form this fight should take. Crossdressing isn't against the law. There are countless accounts right on this board of many of us going about our lives in ordinary and not-so-ordinary ways dressed as we choose at the time. In my own experience, the only thing lacking is that not everybody likes us. I think we can make a lot more progress by demonstrating that we're not threatening, not perverted, that we're productive citizens that lead ordinary lives, etc..

I'm not sure who it is who'd respond well to being forced to accept or like anyone. Obviously I don't want to fight anybody. A pacifist, I suppose. Given my, uhummm.... proclivities, I don't suppose I'd be offended to be referred to as a p#$$y!

[battybattybats]

Batty,
You're obviously passionate about this, but even after all this, I'm not sure exactly what it is you want to fight about, or exactly what form this fight should take. Crossdressing isn't against the law.

Kuwait, Sudan, Iran.. just for starters those are countries that torture and/or execute CDs

There are countless accounts right on this board of many of us going about our lives in ordinary and not-so-ordinary ways dressed as we choose at the time.

In much of the USA you can be fited for CDing at home, denied housing for being a CD. In Australia you can be legally discriminated against for being a CD depending on what state you live in. Same with parts of Europe.

In much of the world you can be in trouble for using either bathrrom when CDd.

Fundamental civl/human rights. Housing, Employment, Education. Currently going before courts and legislatures in the UK, USA, Australia!

In Australia the attmepted suicide rate for TGs is around 40%, in the USA figures get up to 54%. Compared to the 8% of male youth declared a crisis and with funding being spent on it as such. How much is spent on the TG kids dying? Zip, nada, nil. Murder by deliberate negligence.

In my own experience, the only thing lacking is that not everybody likes us. I think we can make a lot more progress by demonstrating that we're not threatening, not perverted, that we're productive citizens that lead ordinary lives, etc..

In Australia 85% in a national poll are in favour of antidiscrimination legislation on gender identity. Its a small but dangerous minority that on all levels of government of both major parties ensuring we don not have equal rights.

I'm not sure who it is who'd respond well to being forced to accept or like anyone. Obviously I don't want to fight anybody. A pacifist, I suppose.

Ghandi was a pacifist and he forced people to accept plenty. The test of what works is what has worked yes? And people demanding their equal rights has worked for every minority that has gained more acceptance tolerance and equality. Why do we ignore the evidence of history?

[Rhonda Jean]

Batty,
I applaud your passion on this. I'm not much of a traveler, so for me, what goes on outside the U.S. isn't much of an issue (not just in cding terms). Women's rights haven't progressed far in some of those places you mention, either.

I do have an appreciation for activists who somehow made it possible for us here in the U.S. to enjoy the freedoms that we DO have. I have no idea how it happened. I don't know who to thank. I am no student of history, and, even if I were, I doubt that that path is clearly dileanated, from a crossdressing sense. Somewhere along the line, though, it started to be sort of okay for people to be different. That obviously doesn't mean universal acceptance, but I know it's a lot better than when I was a kid (That's about as far back in history as I can relate, but that's pretty far). A lot of progress has already been made. I'm all for continuing the progress, but I don't think we'll make much by threatening to put a Dior pump up someone's backside. I don't think we're likely to hear , "Man I used to hate them pantie-wearin' p#$$ies 'till one of 'em threatened to whup my a$$ with his mascara brush."

Phew! I'm getting too tired. Maybe I'll continue this tomorrow when I might can make

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's a very valid point that a person that identifies as a male and loves to crossdress, buy clothes etc, can be considered selfish for taking the time and money and frankly the energy away from other family obligations IF their dressing is out of hand (hard to define but you probably know it when you see it), i think that could be crossing a line..and it's wonderful to feel accepted for who you are

......and btw Rhonda..i don't buy the bs about there being a hierarchy between ts folks and cd folks...and all in between...none of us are better or worse, we may have different challenges, but none of us are doing anything wrong...
i didnt mean to get all high and mighty about things..

i do stand by my point that there is nothing at all inherently wrong about being a crossdresser...and i beleive that it's not selfish at all to stand up for your identity as a crossdresser.... and i simply can't accept that the concept that thinking it's socially unacceptable (by many but not all) is a reason to feel dressing is selfish...at some point we all have live our own lives and not let others dictate how we feel about it....so my answer is it's NOT infringing on other people...as far as our kids, we should be teaching our kids to be tolerant and accepting of people, not hiding in a closet for their sake, teaching them to be intolerant by example....as batty said, an arguement can be made that it's our responsibility to stand up and be counted....

some people hate us...some people compare us to all kinds of people that hurt others and feel crossdressing is just plain wrong, i can insist all i want that they accept me, but i can't force them to accept me.. i dont see how it makes me selfish to try, and if people really really knew us, they would not be so unaccepting...and then we can be more comfortable in accepting ourselves..a win/win as they say

[Miranda09]

Sorry, Miranda, but I really don't agree with any of this. I've been a closet crossdresser since I was about 12 or 13 (I'm 27 now) and I've had feelings about crossdressing for as long as I can remember. While it's true that I've always been well-liked by my family and teachers and classmates over the years because I never gave them any reason to dislike me, it's also true that by keeping this a secret all these years it has done considerable damage to ME. I'm not naturally shy. It wasn't until I started crossdressing and keeping it a secret that I became an introvert. This, in turn, shattered a lot of my confidence and I've never allowed anybody to get close to me. Each time a good friendship would start forming, I'd push them away because I didn't want them to find out my secret.

So, no, I didn't force my "shameful" lifestyle on anybody, but looking back I sure as hell wish I had.

TrekGirl, I do understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I've been CDing off and on since around 12 and I'm just turning 57!! I've just recently started to try to understand this aspect of my personality myself, not trying to accept it, since I already do, but just to understand it. Now if I'm trying to do this myself, how easy do think it is for others to understand. You have said that you never have allowed anyone to get close to you because of your secret and you would turn away from them when a friendship was starting to develop. I would propose that this was a mistake. You don't have to tell someone about your CDing in order to have a friendship with them. After a while, you might be able to discuss it with them, if you feel the trust is there. In my own experience, of all my friends and family, there is only ONE person whom I have told about my CDing, and I knew I could trust her with that knowledge. I know I could tell my other very close friends, and even a few family members, but what would be the point. Is it something they really need to know? A question only you can answer. Your comment regarding "a shameful lifestyle" actually says a lot, even tho I know you don't view it in this manner. Our society is still a rather Victorian, puritanical society when it comes to sex and gender roles. These viewpoints are drilled into us at an early age and is not easily swept aside. So. if you were to "force" this lifestyle on someone and make them accept it unconditionally, I maintain you will end up becoming isolated. So this is why I think acceptance of our lifestyle will just take time. I know I'll never see it...maybe you will, but don't turn away friendships because of this aspect of your personality. If you want acceptance, educate, don't force.

Batty, I do understand your view on acceptance being achieved by many groups in our society. But their reasons for acceptance were much more complex. Women insisted, why? They couldn't vote, hold public office, weren't ever taken seriously unless they were as aggressive as men, and were even considered no more than property. Black Americans insisting? Hell yeah. Blacks weren't allowed to be in the same rooms as whites, could not vote, own land, live in white communities, not even look at a white woman without being persecuted in some form or other (and I don't think I need to go into details here). Many other groups also insisted for many of the same reasons., Look at the gay/lesbian community. Even today, many look at same sex marriage as an affront to our "moral fiber" and against many religious teachings. Their paths to acceptance have also resulted in them gathering into their own large communities where they could move around unfettered by outsiders (so to speak). All of these groups were vocal, AND a larger part of society than we are. And, all of these groups took time to become accepted, and this is what I'm saying...in time, we too will become accepted, but not until our lifestyle has stopped being referred to as a syndrome or disorder, which implies an illness or condition that needs to be cured, which is a viewpoint the I reject completely.

BTW, all these viewpoints presented here have been immensely eye opening and I have been enjoying reading everyone's comments, whether I agreed with them or not.

[battybattybats]

Look at the gay/lesbian community. Even today, many look at same sex marriage as an affront to our "moral fiber" and against many religious teachings. Their paths to acceptance have also resulted in them gathering into their own large communities where they could move around unfettered by outsiders (so to speak). All of these groups were vocal, AND a larger part of society than we are.

Actually gays and lesbians are about 2-4% of the population. By what stats we have CDs outnumber them as we are 6-10% of the population!

Just MtF tiwi islanders where there is a trans tradition allowing them to be themselves being rebuilt from near destriction is 4% of population alone and growing!

[TrekGirl1701]

TrekGirl, I do understand what you're saying and where you're coming from. I've been CDing off and on since around 12 and I'm just turning 57!! I've just recently started to try to understand this aspect of my personality myself, not trying to accept it, since I already do, but just to understand it. Now if I'm trying to do this myself, how easy do think it is for others to understand.

Why can't it be a learning experience for both you and others. Sometimes I learn things better if I'm learning it with somebody else.

You have said that you never have allowed anyone to get close to you because of your secret and you would turn away from them when a friendship was starting to develop. I would propose that this was a mistake.

I definitely agree with that. I wasn't friendless, but I didn't have anybody that I would call a "best" friend. I didn't really make an effort to get closer to people even though they were willing to get closer to me. It's just that I had this notion that people hated crossdressers and if anybody found out my life would be over. I was a teenager so I was over-dramatic like that.

The past couple of years, though, ever since finding this place things have been changing for me. I enjoy the company of my co-workers, I do have a very good friend that I like to hang out with when we get the chance and I'm even more open to my family. I'm really starting to feel that I can trust people to know my secret and I think the time is coming very soon in which I will come out of the closet.

You don't have to tell someone about your CDing in order to have a friendship with them. After a while, you might be able to discuss it with them, if you feel the trust is there. In my own experience, of all my friends and family, there is only ONE person whom I have told about my CDing, and I knew I could trust her with that knowledge. I know I could tell my other very close friends, and even a few family members, but what would be the point. Is it something they really need to know? A question only you can answer.

For me, if I want to be able to wear what I want, anywhere I want, then yes. I don't want this to be a hidden treasure that few people know about. Lots of people may think that what you wear shouldn't be such a big part of your life and that you should just dress your gender and stop worrying about it. But that's just the thing. For most people it isn't a big deal because they're just fine dressing like their gender. The only reason it's a big deal for me is because crossdressing is a hot button issue. And the more I think about the fact that the way I want to dress is only acceptable if I happen to have been born a female just burns me up.

Your comment regarding "a shameful lifestyle" actually says a lot, even tho I know you don't view it in this manner. Our society is still a rather Victorian, puritanical society when it comes to sex and gender roles. These viewpoints are drilled into us at an early age and is not easily swept aside. So. if you were to "force" this lifestyle on someone and make them accept it unconditionally, I maintain you will end up becoming isolated. So this is why I think acceptance of our lifestyle will just take time. I know I'll never see it...maybe you will, but don't turn away friendships because of this aspect of your personality. If you want acceptance, educate, don't force.

I don't feel that crossdressing is "forcing" it. It's all right if I let people know that crossdressing is okay, just as long as they don't actually see me doing it? I know my situation is a bit easier than a lot since I'm still young and single, but I have two parents, three siblings, a sister-in-law, two nieces and two grandparents that love me and care about me to this day. I don't want to upset them even though I've definitely done stuff to annoy them or disappoint them throughout my life. This is why I don't think it'll be selfish of me to let them know about my crossdressing. It may be a shock to them at first, but if I know them like I think I know them they will accept it. I'm not the same person I was 10 years ago and neither are they. People change over the years for one reason or another. When I come out of the closet it'll be a big change for me, too, not just them. Hell, for all I know I'll end up hating it and go back to dressing like I used to. But at least my crossdressing won't be a secret anymore. And I won't be shy about going out there and standing up for crossdresser's rights.