My world - and mine alone! ?

[urmilaaa2008]

If from childhood u feel trapped in a wrong body, u shouldnt think of getting into relationships, until u decide on which way u want to live. then only your parents r involved and they should be able to understand, if they really care for u. Even if they dont, if u decide to go on transistioning, it is perfectly OK and u cannot be called selfish.

Regarding a married married person. just dressing will not be a problem, if ur SO accepts it. If it goes further and leads to transitioning, then one should think of the family first. marriage and starting a family is your decision and u have made that commitment on your own as a man, without anybody forcing u to do that. In that case you it is your responsibility to honour your commitment as an husband, as a father and you dont have a right to say, i dont care and go into transitioning. that will be pure selfishness and insensitive

there is an interesting page on bill of rights, for cds and cds's wives
http://www.tri-ess.org/Wives_CDs_BofR.html

[Rhonda Jean]

To begin with a side note... Kaitlyn, I think the more we go back and forth on this the closer it appears we are.

On the whole issue of acceptance. In my own life, the amount of openness I freely express and the amount of acceptance I receive is inversely proportional to the distance from the center of my life, both from a physical distance standpoint and a personal relationship standpoint. I won't try to detail the exceptions, but there aren't many. I'm completely "out" when I'm a couple hundred miles away from home, but I won't even show my polished toes at the Wal-mart two miles from my house. I love interacting with women (strangers, more or less) when I'm away, but my lifelong best friend doesn't know.

I think we've benefitted greatly from the gay rights movement, though honoring that seems to weaken my position compared to Batty's. Kind of interesting that we've been able to benefit from that in large part because of a public misperception of us. Most of us aren't gay, but most of the public thinks we are.

Again, just from my own little personal standpoint, maybe it's a big pictue versus a small picture. Honestly, even as I begin to write this, I realize that this is another twist on the ME, ME theme. I'm a small picture type. It's not that I flat-out don't care how others are treated, particularly when it happens half way around the world, but I'm much more concerned about how I'm treated at the beauty shop 30 miles away. To a large degree, I think we make our own luck there. As my mother used to say, (You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar." It's certainly more within my control than how crossdressers are treated in Iran. And, frankly, just because I'm accepted there doesn't mean they'll accept all (or any other) crossdressers who walk through the door, nor should they be somehow forced to. Maybe, though, because of me it'll be a little easier on the next one. (WooHoo! Maybe I am an activist! Today the beauty shop, tomorrow the world!)

Again from a personal perception/experience standpoint... I've never encountered hatred (I'm excluding my ex from this observation). From a statistical standpoint, I know that the longer I go without encountering it, the closer I'm getting to it. I know it's out there. If I had, I'm sure that my pollyanna views would be rattled.

I'm always put off by in-your-face activism on any hot-button topic. That's just me. I think even if activism is your thing, there are quieter, better received ways of doing it.

Batty, I think we're on the same side. When you make the world a better place, I'll be riding your coat tail (skirt tail?). About all I can offer the cause is if you walk into my beauty shop maybe they'll think, "Oh, cool! We know about crossdressers! They're like Rhonda!"

[kellycan27]

Kelly, if for Michelle the CDing was just a hobby, a distasteful hobby according to her wife, that Michelle could take or leave then I agree with your point. But the CDing is an intrinsic part of who she is, and as a human being she does have the right to express herself. She can do so privately without shoving it down her wife's throat. She is not asking or trying to force her wife to participate. Michelle is merely asking to have the dignity to not have to lie about who she is, to not feel as if she is sneaking around doing something "bad". I'm sure if Michelle's wife engaged in activities that Michelle didn't approve of, as long as they were not illegal, Michelle would find something else to do when her wife chose to engage in these activities and it would not take away from the love she feels for her wife?

Obviously Michelle's wife doesn't see it that way. You obviously don't have a problem with it...she does. Had she (Michelle's wife) been given a choice in the first place maybe Michelle wouldn't find herself in the position that she is in. Had she been given a choice maybe she would gave opted not to go into a relationship with Michelle. You seem to be saying that because Michelle isn't doing anything illegal or immoral, that Her wife should just let her do what she wants.. because she has the right. You make it seem like Michelle's wife is the bad guy............ What about her right to not like it. If Michelle has the right to CD, then Michelle's wife has the right not to like it or have to put up with it no matter how or where she does it. I don't like smoking.. I wouldn't want an SO that smokes,not just because of the health issues,but because I find it disgusting. I would still have an issue with an SO that smoked behind my back ( or away from me if it sounds better) because even though it's not hurting me... I FIND IT DISGUSTING. If he kept it from me and he's "hooked"...... too bad. He shouldn't have kept it from me. He shouldn't have taken away my freedom to choose because she was being selfish..PERIOD. Michelle's wife's reasons for not accepting her cross dressing are irrelavent. The truth of the matter is freedom of choice. If Michelle wants to cd.. she should, even if that means splitting up with the wife.

[battybattybats]

I think we've benefitted greatly from the gay rights movement, though honoring that seems to weaken my position compared to Batty's. Kind of interesting that we've been able to benefit from that in large part because of a public misperception of us. Most of us aren't gay, but most of the public thinks we are.

A significant part of the reason the public thinks we are gay is because the Gay CDs and the straight TSs are the ones who have been braver and more public and did what many here consider selfish, they stood up and made people get used to their existence! And a big part of why we see less gay CDs called CDs is because they fought for and won acceptance under the title drag (from old stage CDing terms Dressed As Girl) and have generally a place amongst Gay communities and many of the law changes that protect us come specifcally because Gay Cis folk fought on behalf of the Gay CDs!

Straight Cds have let the Gay CDs down and Gay Cis picked up our slack despite being a smaller number!

Again, just from my own little personal standpoint, maybe it's a big pictue versus a small picture. Honestly, even as I begin to write this, I realize that this is another twist on the ME, ME theme. I'm a small picture type.

Gays worked on big picture and small picture stuff, it worked. Surely we can and should too?

It's not that I flat-out don't care how others are treated, particularly when it happens half way around the world, but I'm much more concerned about how I'm treated at the beauty shop 30 miles away.

What about the poorer darker skinned CDs in your area/state? They are the ones more likely to be murdered or assaulted or jobless by a massive degree.

To a large degree, I think we make our own luck there. As my mother used to say, (You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar."

Ah but there's the term intersections of discrimination! Those who suffer worst are those belong to 2 or more groups and that is multiplied not added together. Most TGs attacked are non-white.

It's certainly more within my control than how crossdressers are treated in Iran.

Your in a democrcy. You have a say in International Policy as much as any other thing in your country. It may be one of many things but your choices still count and join a cumulative effect. Iran may be less in your power to effect as it ignores the West regularly but Jamiaca is far more in your power to effect! It's ecnomy depends on the West. And in Jamaica mobs attack CDs with Machettes while police watch and shout encouragement!

And, frankly, just because I'm accepted there doesn't mean they'll accept all (or any other) crossdressers who walk through the door, nor should they be somehow forced to.

They are forced to on skin colour, ethnicity, religion and sex. Why not on CDing? Why is CDing a fair reason to have an exception?

Maybe, though, because of me it'll be a little easier on the next one. (WooHoo! Maybe I am an activist! Today the beauty shop, tomorrow the world!)

Actually you are right! That is activism! You are an activist! And we need both forms, law reform and public exposure, to succeed!

Again from a personal perception/experience standpoint... I've never encountered hatred (I'm excluding my ex from this observation). From a statistical standpoint, I know that the longer I go without encountering it, the closer I'm getting to it. I know it's out there. If I had, I'm sure that my pollyanna views would be rattled.

There are many aspects that raise or lower the chances that are not a matter of easy risk-avoidance. Skin colour is huge, income is another, what city you live is another, what laws are locally is another. And those most at risk with less power need those least at risk with more to make things safer!

I'm always put off by in-your-face activism on any hot-button topic. That's just me. I think even if activism is your thing, there are quieter, better received ways of doing it.

But when does it work? Proof of the pudding is in the eatting. History says the quitest approaches do nothing of value.

Batty, I think we're on the same side. When you make the world a better place, I'll be riding your coat tail (skirt tail?). About all I can offer the cause is if you walk into my beauty shop maybe they'll think, "Oh, cool! We know about crossdressers! They're like Rhonda!"

Every bit counts. Consider tiny donations to TG organisations. Your going out really does contribute. And being aware of that and taking it into account turns it from something done for the self (though not selfish) into something done also for the community too.

[ReineD]

You make it seem like Michelle's wife is the bad guy............ What about her right to not like it. If Michelle has the right to CD, then Michelle's wife has the right not to like it or have to put up with it no matter how or where she does it. I don't like smoking.. I wouldn't want an SO that smokes,not just because of the health issues,but because I find it disgusting.

Smoking is a bad habit that damages health. Crossdressing is not. Agreed the absolute best thing to do is to tell a partner at the beginning of a relationship and give the partner a choice as to whether or not she wants to commit to marriage with a CD. Anyone under 35 today, IMO, has no excuse not to tell before hand. There are so many resources on the internet to help TGs come to terms with who they are, unlike what it was like when Michelle was beginning her married life. And even Michelle said earlier that when she married she thought it would go away. She had no benefit of a forum such as this to know otherwise.

I am not making Michelle's wife out to be a bad guy. Of course she has the right to not like the CDing. If Michelle developed any condition that was difficult to deal with (health-wise), then Michelle's wife would have the right to not like that either. But it doesn't mean they, as a couple, wouldn't have to deal with it. They would not be expected to pretend "it" didn't exist. They would find ways to have both their needs met.

I have learned, in my 30 odd years of adulthood that no one has the right to tell someone else who they should be. Michelle's wife can only control her own actions, which would be to leave the marriage if she cannot stomach who her husband is. Again, if Michelle got into an accident and suffered debilitating physical changes, her wife would have the right to not like that too and leave. But, one would hope after 20 or 30 years of marriage, there would be a bit more compassion, a bit more loyalty. We are talking about Michelle's right to express who she inherently is, who she always was even though she may not have known it, who Michelle's wife fell in love with all these years ago; all the character and personality traits that were there all along. Not issues such as smoking, gambling, drinking, drugging, womanizing or wife-beating.

Michelle has not said she will stop being a husband to her wife. Michelle does not want to force her wife to participate in, or even see Michelle. Michelle only wants the dignity to not have to lie and sneak around about who she is. Now if Michelle wanted to stop being her wife's husband physically and emotionally, then you would have a point. But as far as I can see, Michelle's wife is not required to be exposed to anything she does not want to be exposed to.

Having said all this, no one in this forum can judge the delicate balance between Michelle and her wife. It will be up to them to prioritize their needs and strike the balance wherever it may fall. I sincerely hope they can work it out.

[Fab Karen]

"Are we invading others "space" by breaking with societal customary dress style? Or are they impeding our freedom to be who we want?"

Did inter-racial couples invade other's space? Did women wanting the right to vote, and even *gasp* to wear pants invade other's space? Did gay people going about their lives normally, not hiding & pretending, invade other's space?
The latter question, the people most impeding our freedom is US- imagination paired with fear holds some frozen in terror. Light a candle instead of cursing the darkness. Fear: False Evidence Appearing Real

[kellycan27]

Smoking is a bad habit that damages health. Crossdressing is not. Agreed the absolute best thing to do is to tell a partner at the beginning of a relationship and give the partner a choice as to whether or not she wants to commit to marriage with a CD. Anyone under 35 today, IMO, has no excuse not to tell before hand. There are so many resources on the internet to help TGs come to terms with who they are, unlike what it was like when Michelle was beginning her married life. And even Michelle said earlier that when she married she thought it would go away. She had no benefit of a forum such as this to know otherwise.

I am not making Michelle's wife out to be a bad guy. Of course she has the right to not like the CDing. If Michelle developed any condition that was difficult to deal with (health-wise), then Michelle's wife would have the right to not like that either. But it doesn't mean they, as a couple, wouldn't have to deal with it. They would not be expected to pretend "it" didn't exist. They would find ways to have both their needs met.

I have learned, in my 30 odd years of adulthood that no one has the right to tell someone else who they should be. Michelle's wife can only control her own actions, which would be to leave the marriage if she cannot stomach who her husband is. Again, if Michelle got into an accident and suffered debilitating physical changes, her wife would have the right to not like that too and leave. But, one would hope after 20 or 30 years of marriage, there would be a bit more compassion, a bit more loyalty. We are talking about Michelle's right to express who she inherently is, who she always was even though she may not have known it, who Michelle's wife fell in love with all these years ago; all the character and personality traits that were there all along. Not issues such as smoking, gambling, drinking, drugging, womanizing or wife-beating.

Michelle has not said she will stop being a husband to her wife. Michelle does not want to force her wife to participate in, or even see Michelle. Michelle only wants the dignity to not have to lie and sneak around about who she is. Now if Michelle wanted to stop being her wife's husband physically and emotionally, then you would have a point. But as far as I can see, Michelle's wife is not required to be exposed to anything she does not want to be exposed to.

Having said all this, no one in this forum can judge the delicate balance between Michelle and her wife. It will be up to them to prioritize their needs and strike the balance wherever it may fall. I sincerely hope they can work it out.

Your analogy is as bad as mine.. there again health. I am not saying that Michelle's wife should dictate what she should do. All I am saying is that she wasn't given a choice in the matter, and that she has the right to not like it or want any part of it without condemnation. Whether or not she is or isn't exposed to Michelle's crossdressing.. she still knows it's going on and for whatever reason... she finds it distasteful. Compromise would be nice, but if Michelle's wife doesn't want to compromise... she shouldn't have to, and she shouldn't be made out to look like the non-understanding one. I may be young and not have a zillion years of experience in these matters, but I DO have the ability to see BOTH sides of the coin....clearly and logically.

[ReineD]

she has the right to not like it or want any part of it without condemnation.

Well, at least we agree on one thing!

[Satrana]

.
“…We spend our whole lives feeling awful about who we are…feeling a need to apologize to humanity for breaking the most basic social norm. Then when it comes time to empower ourselves and rise above every social teaching that has metastasized from society to our consciousness, we feel a great ache in our solar plexus – guilt. And ironically enough, the people who want to block us realize this better than we do, and they dig in for battle, throwing back at us our greatest fear…”How can you be so selfish???!!!” I say, how can we be so SELF-LESS!! We have spent a whole life trying to ease the sense of comfort in others by sacrificing our entire identity. If you don’t believe you are justified in being yourself, why should anyone else?”

That is a wonderful quotation. One of the big unsung issues of CDing is the guilt-trap which we create for ourselves and which others use against us. How often do we CDs hear someone hurling the selfish label against us because we dared to be ourselves and ask for respect. The selfish label is used as a put-down because we are not doing or behaving the way someone else wants us to - which makes the other person selfish in their motivation.

Invariably it is selfish people who use the label against others. Unselfish people try to understand, empathize even congratulate.

We all have a right to be ourselves. We all have a right to change as we develop a better understanding of who we are as we mature. This is true for all people not just CDs. We all change (often substantially) as we age. If my change is to stop having to live up to a false stereotype of what a "real" man is, how I am supposed to look like, how I am supposed to behave all in order to give comfort to others, then I know unselfish people will be happy for me knowing that I have found my path to happiness. And in doing so, I am in a much better situation to help others in their path to happiness.

The feminist movement pointed this all out decades ago. Women are told they had the right to reach their full potential and not to buckle to pressure to conform to female stereotypes. Why is it that CDs are forced to reinvent the wheel when we seek gender freedoms?

[ReineD]

Beautifully said, Shannon, and I agree with all your points, Satrana.

The trouble is there are different degrees, thus different definitions of selfishness and when people think of it in terms of how it affects them, they define selfishness according to their own experience. A SO whose CD husband goes over the top in a pink fog and ceases to consider his family's emotional needs and who spends a disproportionate amount of family income on wardrobe, or who believes that cyber-sex in gal mode is not 'cheating' will bristle at the idea that CDing is not selfish. It will be difficult for her to separate the CDing from her husband's self-centered attitudes. This SOs issue is entirely different than a SO who, as in your example, is homo/transphobic or morally opposed to the CDing and considers any expression of it to be self-centered.

I wonder if sometimes members who disagree in a thread like this have different definitions of self-centeredness in mind.

Ideally, the TG will be supported for being who she is while she maintains a healthy and loving relationship with her wife and considers her wife's needs. Or, if the TGs wife finds she cannot feel romantically attracted to her husband's femme expression, then at least she could support his need to be who s/he is and give her time and space to do this. And it is up to both of them to decide together the degree to which the TG outs herself, considering their life circumstances.

Being TG is not immoral nor is it perverted and the sooner society learns to accept this, the better. In my opinion, the immediate family members beginning with SOs should be the ones to first try to stretch and understand this, especially now since there are so many resources available as opposed to even 10 years ago. SOs know their TGs characters and I would hope in their hearts they would believe their husbands are not sick.

And last, if the TG wants to transition and no longer can maintain the husband/wife relationship that the wife signed up for, then I agree the best thing to do is to go their separate ways if the wife finds she cannot support the transition. Hopefully now that there is more information available, younger TSs (and of course CDS) will realize sooner who they are and will not enter a relationship with a SO without telling them.

[Stephanie Miller]

"And last, if the TG wants to transition and no longer can maintain the husband/wife relationship that the wife signed up for, then I agree the best thing to do is to go their separate ways if the wife finds she cannot support the transition."

Sounds like a one-way street to me. If the TG "signed up" and if the TG wants to transition is she showing total "self" regard? And - not showing consideration to the SO who signed up for "till death do us part" in good faith also? (Let's not even go into the realm of breaking up a family if there is one.)

[ReineD]

Sounds like a one-way street to me. If the TG "signed up" and if the TG wants to transition is she showing total "self" regard? And - not showing consideration to the SO who signed up for "till death do us part" in good faith also? (Let's not even go into the realm of breaking up a family if there is one.)

I agree. It is a very difficult situation but I cannot see another way. Also, please read my entire post and not just take one sentence out of context.

Simply put, it is best if they each can find a balance or a compromise. But to have it totally one way or the other when it concerns something as essential to a person's being as gender is not realistic. Not every TG can choose to just put the CDing aside.

The bulk of my post addressed CDs who would not consider transition. But, I felt it best to also include the TS scenario, since this forum is filled with TGs who are across the spectrum, and it is sometimes easy to read one's own slant into someone else's words unless everything is spelled out.

I was also careful to point out that ideally, especially with the resources available today, GGs will not find out 10 years or more from now that their husbands are TG. But we are unfortunately still at a crossroads since there are many long-term marriages now where TGs honestly felt 15 or 30 years ago that the CDing was something that would go away.

Also do remember the high divorce rate in our culture and many other factors can come into the decision to divorce, on top of the CDing. I do not recommend divorce as the preferred solution to marital difficulties and I fully understand the heartbreak it brings especially to the children.

[kellycan27]

The feminist movement pointed this all out decades ago. Women are told they had the right to reach their full potential and not to buckle to pressure to conform to female stereotypes. Why is it that CDs are forced to reinvent the wheel when we seek gender freedoms?

The gays did it, the feminists did it, so why shouldn't cross dressers? Should they just be able to ride on the backs of the gays and feminists to achieve their freedom? If this issue is so important to cross dressers shouldn't they be out there fighting for their rights? Seems to me that there are an awful lot of people sitting on their butts complaining about how unfair society is, but won't lift a finger to help themselves.. just blame others for their woes and their nonacceptance. They come up with all kinds of phobias and moral objections that may be true in some cases... But I believe it to be the exception more than the rule. There are a lot of us out there living our lives the way we want to live them without being persecuted or lynched. How many threads do we read right here alone where girls are getting out there and having positive experiences rather than negative? The gays and feminists showed some balls and intestinal fortitude to get what they wanted....
It would be very interesting to know how many of these complainers were actually out there experiencing all this so called hate rather than hiding in a closet or behind drawn blinds.

[ReineD]

Stephanie and Kelly, I am curious to know your thoughts on a few points.

Do you feel that for the most part, CDs and TSs know and accept their transness at a young age and if they marry in their 20s they are deliberately lying to their wives if they do not tell them the full extent of their desires?

If yes, do you feel this would also have been the case pre-internet days before TGs knew they were not alone?

Do you disagree that some TGs struggle for years hoping it will go away and they go through repetitive cycles of purging? That they are ashamed of telling their loved ones because they feel that it is is an aberration?

Do you agree or disagree that CDing becomes more powerful with time especially if it is suppressed for many years?

And last, do you believe that if a TG has struggled with this for many years and later on in life does come to the realization that she cannot continue to ignore or avoid it, and her wife does not approve, then she must at all costs continue to suppress it?

I'm not trying to be rude or flip, but you both seem to be comfortable with who you are and it surprises me that you do not wish to consider that in a marriage, the wife also has a responsibility to try to understand her husband if he has struggled all of his life? I am speaking here mostly of older people who did not have the benefit of the internet when they were first getting into relationships.

Or have I mistaken your points?

Please take my questions in the spirit they are intended. I would very much like to understand your point of view.

[Stephanie Miller]

Oh come now Reine... I don't look upon ANY good dialog as being rude. It is what it is suppose to be. Just that.... a dialog. Good healthy back and forth. I appreciate all you and the others have added to this thread.
As for your questions.. It will be interesting to read Kelly's vs. mine since we come from such different eras. Her from the modern world and me........ from the stone age. She is smart and articulate so it will be good to see.
Although I do have to add Kelly, that you're last post made it seem like crossdresers were slouches because gays jumped on a bandwagon as old as the hills before the CD's. This bandwagon of " I am not being treated the way I see I should". Take the blacks and slavery or the Irish as immigrants, the women and voting, Indians and reservations etc. etc.. I think women have made great strides since cavemen days and being drug around by their hair by Thor. (May not be totally accurate, but you get my drift) And I don't see the bandwagon slowing down after CD's get done either. We all depend on each other in our own ways.
Now back to the questions... I do think that in today's world with the resources available there should be a lot less ignorance and a massive amount of acceptance on transgender topics by not only those living it but those not. I also think there will always be denial by those who are, as social pressure is always there to some degree.
How can I NOT agree that TSs struggle. I lived (and still live) it, I hear of too many that lived it that still live it. The social ignorance is still there (albeit not as heavy as 20 and 30 years ago when I went through it ). There are a heck of a lot of things in life that are a struggle. Suck it up and work through it! I get real tired of hearing people whine because the world isn't going their way and think everyone should bend because of little ol' me not getting my way. But I also believe things can change - if pursued the correct way. Not just because the masses rolled over and accepted because of whining.
More powerful in time? Don't know. I know my urge to CD has not changed. The amount of time I can be my other self has changed, therefore it is in the forefront of my thought pattern more. It is out in the open for me to see and hear more too. It's kind of like smoking. ( I know it's not the same - but work with the analogy here) When I quit it was a lot easier to not crave when in a non-smoking area than when playing poker and everyone else was puffing away. So maybe it's harder to put the urges aside now-a-days.
But before I get pigionholed into everyone thinking all my answers are from the point of a "satisfied crossdresser", let me explain. I feel I am NOT a CD. I feel I am a TS that is going through life because of the choices AND OBLIGATIONS I made before learning what this CD/TS/TG thing was all about. I go through life everyday - every minute wishing I was totally female 24/7. I was born in the wrong body. But, because of the commitments/obligations I've made early in life and the people that it would hurt if I did not follow through with my earlier choices. I'm living life the best I can. And I treat others the best I can. The pain is mine. Not theirs. I do not fault those that feel differently on how to lead their lives. That is what we do as sisters here. Stand together and support.

[kellycan27]

Stephanie and Kelly, I am curious to know your thoughts on a few points.

Do you feel that for the most part, CDs and TSs know and accept their transness at a young age and if they marry in their 20s they are deliberately lying to their wives if they do not tell them the full extent of their desires?

If yes, do you feel this would also have been the case pre-internet days before TGs knew they were not alone?

Do you disagree that some TGs struggle for years hoping it will go away and they go through repetitive cycles of purging? That they are ashamed of telling their loved ones because they feel that it is is an aberration?

Do you agree or disagree that CDing becomes more powerful with time especially if it is suppressed for many years?

And last, do you believe that if a TG has struggled with this for many years and later on in life does come to the realization that she cannot continue to ignore or avoid it, and her wife does not approve, then she must at all costs continue to suppress it?

I'm not trying to be rude or flip, but you both seem to be comfortable with who you are and it surprises me that you do not wish to consider that in a marriage, the wife also has a responsibility to try to understand her husband if he has struggled all of his life? I am speaking here mostly of older people who did not have the benefit of the internet when they were first getting into relationships.

Or have I mistaken your points?

Please take my questions in the spirit they are intended. I would very much like to understand your point of view.

I am not blaming the CD for their circumstance. I really feel for those who found or find it necessary to keep secrets. I believe that many have struggled for years. My whole point is that a wife or SO shouldn't be made the villian because she cannot accept the facts.. no matter what her reason.It seems that the wife or SO is always the one who is at fault when problems with this thing arise. She doesn't understand,she has some kind of phobia. Obviously it isn't something that everyone is comfortable with (as witnessed by the many "I got my ass thrown out" threads). Educating someone who is not comfortable with it, may or may not have the desired results. They may understand the cder's need to cd, but that isn't nesessarily going to make them accept the fact.

Let's use me as an example. I have been around here for a little while. Read the threads, and I believe I have a fair understanding of CDer's,their problems and their desires. I don't think that there is anything wrong with CDing if that's what you do,but................. I wouldn't want a CD for a husband or an SO. It's just not in my personal notion of what an SO should be. He may be smart,funny,a good provider, a great guy, and a pillar of the community,but the CDing would be a deal breaker for me.
Now say I found out after the fact.......I would be feel cheated because I wasn't given the opportunity to choose. Now my choices are to live with something I don't like, or break the relationship. I lose either way, and so does he. I don't blame the CDer for his CDing... ok he can't help it. Don't blame me for not accepting it,because whatever it is in me that can't accept it... I can't help either. Am I supposed to be the bigger person, and be unhappy,because he can't help being a CDer?
If compromise ( and I mentioned this before) can be achieved....AWESOME!
If not, it would be sad and a parting of the ways would be best. Neither party should be be blamed.. it just wasn't meant to be. I DO NOT believe that the wife should shoulder the responsibility just because the CDer has struggled all his life if the wife doesn't feel comfortable with his CDing. it's not fair that she be unhappy because of something that is no fault of hers.Life is too short to be unhappy.and before you get riled up.. I am not blaming the CDer for being a CDer.. just the luck of the draw.

[Satrana]

The gays did it, the feminists did it, so why shouldn't cross dressers? Should they just be able to ride on the backs of the gays and feminists to achieve their freedom?

There is a difference between breaking through society's ignorance and prejudices with a new idea of gender freedom/equality and sexuality equality/freedom and then for subsequent groups to have to fight the same battles again when the principal has already been established. That is like saying the civil rights movement only granted rights to blacks, so Latinos, Asians, Arabs have to go through the same battles to get equality too? That is a silly notion.

Seems to me that there are an awful lot of people sitting on their butts complaining about how unfair society is, but won't lift a finger to help themselves

that is always the case, the number of activists are always a small percentage of the whole. It is human nature

There are a lot of us out there living our lives the way we want to live them without being persecuted or lynched.

There is a big difference between those who live a TG life full time or have found their self acceptacne and those who move to and fro and remain closeted. If a CD turns up for work in a skirt then he has a high chance of being persecuted.

CDs find themselves in a bind. Having being forced into the closet by society's prejudices they spend a life projecting only a masculine personality and usually have too much invested in it to change by the time they eventually reach a stage of self acceptance.

[Jonianne]

.......one thought i have about it is why don't hunter's have to answer that question? why don't golfers have to answer it? musicians?.......

Actually sometimes they do. I remember the speed skater Dan Jansen who pretty much spent fulltime training through 4 winter olympics to win that gold metal he desperatly wanted. His wife stuck with him and supported him through all of it, but in the end they divorced.

It's the same question. Was he selfish to spend so much time trying to win the gold? Or was that something he was born to do? Sometimes when you win, you lose.

Sometimes, there are no perfect answers.

On this thread, what is so good to see, are GM's trying to see the situation from the SO's point of view and the GW's in defence of the cd'ers. Everyone striving to be empathatic is what helps build understanding.

[kellycan27]

There is a difference between breaking through society's ignorance and prejudices with a new idea of gender freedom/equality and sexuality equality/freedom and then for subsequent groups to have to fight the same battles again when the principal has already been established. That is like saying the civil rights movement only granted rights to blacks, so Latinos, Asians, Arabs have to go through the same battles to get equality too? That is a silly notion.

You are not going to break through society's ignorance, and prejudice by hiding in the closet and complaining. the gays and feminists got out there up close and personal and looked society right in the eye.. and demanded acceptance. They got beaten up,killed,persecuted and prosecuted,but did they give up? No. I am not suggesting that crossdressers start from scratch.The gays,and feminists,blacks, latino's ,arabs and whomever have already paved the way. If crossdressers want acceptance They are going to have to get out there and take the bull by the horns. I don't understand why you feel that crossdressers are a special case. I am not saying that it is going to be easy.. people are going to suffer. I think that society is changing for the better,it's not perfect,but it is much more accepting than it was 20 or 30 years ago. How are fearful,closeted crossdressers ever going to see this if the continue to cling to old notions,spread fear amongst themselves, and not venture out? There are lot of cross dressers living and working in the mainstream in and around society. They are the ones who are going to gain acceptance,just by the mere fact that they are out and about showing society that they are just as normal as the next person. As my mother used to tell me...... can't never did anything. I personally know a lot of crossdressers that are out and about.. They have jobs,friends,families, and nobody seems to want to kill them.As I mentioned before...look at the number of crossdressers right here that have worked up the courage to show themselves..without negative results. I know that this won't be possible in all cases..there is still a lot of work to be done.



that is always the case, the number of activists are always a small percentage of the whole. It is human nature

If that's the case..it looks like ,them that's got,shall get. if people are not willing to stand up out of fear.... what do they expect? I don't think that the fearful ones will benefit from society being accepting to begin with. I believe that it has more to do with self acceptance rather than societal acceptance.

There is a big difference between those who live a TG life full time or have found their self acceptance and those who move to and fro and remain closeted. If a CD turns up for work in a skirt then he has a high chance of being persecuted.

CDs find themselves in a bind. Having being forced into the closet by society's prejudices they spend a life projecting only a masculine personality and usually have too much invested in it to change by the time they eventually reach a stage of self acceptance.

[B] It's unfortunate that there are those who still cling to what has happened in the past. It's a catch 22 for them. They want change,but are unwilling to seek change,because of past prejudices. How would social acceptance change things for these people? These people that have too much invested to change..even if they want to? Kind of like closing the barn door after the horse got out, wouldn't you agree? What I find even more unfortunate is these closeted and fearful types keeping the fear alive, and spreading it to those who still have a chance to live the life that they wish to live. If one hides in a closet and and peeks out though closed blinds.... How could they possibly know how accepting society is or isn't? We who are full time TG have not always been full time.... We came up through the ranks just like everyone else. we just didn't wake up transgendered and breezing though life. We suffered the same pain and indignities as the next person. We may be on a different level now, but we didn't have any magic pills to get us to this point.... desire,need and intestinal fortitude is more like it.[B]

Sorry if my quoting is a bit messy....
Kelly

[ReineD]

I feel I am NOT a CD. I feel I am a TS that is going through life because of the choices AND OBLIGATIONS I made before learning what this CD/TS/TG thing was all about. I go through life everyday - every minute wishing I was totally female 24/7. I was born in the wrong body. But, because of the commitments/obligations I've made early in life and the people that it would hurt if I did not follow through with my earlier choices. I'm living life the best I can. And I treat others the best I can. The pain is mine. Not theirs.

So how can you possibly be happy living like this? Using the smoking analogy, I can't imagine going through life craving something that I cannot have (I used to smoke and believe me I know how horrible it is to have that craving, empty feeling when you quit). I mean most people can put up with the uncomfortableness for a while, but they know it will go away eventually. I was a bear when I quit smoking the first time. So how can you be happy, being present in your life to your family, friends, job, etc when internally all you think of is being Steph? Isn't this terribly, terribly difficult? Does it lessen the enjoyment you get from the other areas of your life?

If compromise ( and I mentioned this before) can be achieved....AWESOME!
If not, it would be sad and a parting of the ways would be best. Neither party should be be blamed.. it just wasn't meant to be. I DO NOT believe that the wife should shoulder the responsibility just because the CDer has struggled all his life if the wife doesn't feel comfortable with his CDing. it's not fair that she be unhappy because of something that is no fault of hers.

I understand what you are saying, Kelly. But it isn't as simple as just saying, "That's it! You can CD and I can't live with it so let's split up", especially when their lives and finances are very much intertwined, and especially if they have kids. If it is a young couple and they are both working, fine. But if the couple have been together for decades, it is harder. And if you throw Love into it, it makes things a lot more complicated. So they love each other and if it wasn't for the CDing, everything would be fine. Do you let something like CDing ruin a good marriage? It wouldn't be fair to have it all one way OR the other. So the answer is to compromise. If the wife can't live with it, then she should give her husband space and time that they both agree with, and in turn he won't ask her to participate. I agree that no one should be blamed.

I suppose in a CDing marriage, both parties could be selfish. He could insist on dressing every day, breaking the bank with the clothes, spend all his evenings on line shopping and in CD sites or going out with the girls, and tell his wife to take it or leave it. Or, she can say "I absolutely forbid you to even think about it and I don't want you to ever mention it to me ever again, and I'll do my best to catch you on it so don't even think about hiding it. I'll watch you like a hawk."

You see Kelly? It can't be all black or white or a divorce. When couples are faced with an issue like this, both of them need to find ways to work it out. If they love each other. She gets no exposure to it at all if she doesn't want to be involved, and he dresses less than he would if she was accepting, but at least he doesn't have to lie to her and they can preserve their marriage. Also, don't forget the reason so many wives are against this is because of social conditioning and lack of exposure. I guarantee you that if a non supportive wife can at least bring herself to give her husband space to do this (even if she never sees him dressed), eventually she will see that the sky won't come crashing down on her and he is in the end of it all the same person. There are lots of stories in this forum where wives such as I've described lost their fears bit by bit over time. But she has to be willing to give a little too.

CDs find themselves in a bind. Having being forced into the closet by society's prejudices they spend a life projecting only a masculine personality and usually have too much invested in it to change by the time they eventually reach a stage of self acceptance.

Once again, you have a way of explaining things that makes perfect sense to me!

On this thread, what is so good to see, are GM's trying to see the situation from the SO's point of view and the GW's in defence of the cd'ers. Everyone striving to be empathatic is what helps build understanding.

This is so true! Don't you just love this forum?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I havent seen such a civiilized debate on this thorny topic!!

I won't post alot of quotes, but I wonder if I could chime in on a couple things...its not black and white and your feelings on this stuff are colored by your own personal experience.

I am 47...i've heard alot of people jump on me that I got married and had kids and that it was irresponsible of me....well i agree....i would not want my SO to disclose 20 years into our marraige that she is really a man.

but the hard truth was that 21 years ago i wasnt even aware that there were so many people like me...i suffered in almost utter silence, and I thought in my mind that I was doomed to live as a man...so i lived as a man...there was no internet (or very little)...i had read some articles but that was it...i just didnt know there was an alternative...

this is not my wife's fault, i never ever blamed her for it....i overcompensated and spent ALL my free time with her...and she loved me for it...and i loved being with her....(which is maybe why i am bitter about the drunks and golfers and stayaway husbands that are happily accepted in their lives).
today we are apart, but we are very friendly, our emotional bond is strong and permanent and she has decided to forgive me and move on...and i'm simply thankful for it..i hope if the roles were switched that i would be as tolerant.

as far as considering yourself TS and putting others ahead of you....

This is life threatening and difficult posiiton to be in for the TS person (and yes the loved ones too)..a TS person is a woman...forced to live as a man because of her "other parts"....this is unsustainable long term

the noose only gets tighter...if you don't accept it early(which many young folks now do because of all the support and info out there, and even then its courageous) the sinking feeling of being trapped and lifeless comes sooner or later...it gets worse and worse, it just does, its almost like your survival instinct kicking in,.....so be careful what you say....if you are a woman in your mind, this is your fate.

i used to think the same way as you Stephanie, but I was fooling myself....my job, my family, my beloved Phillies..what good are they if I'm totally completely dead inside?? what good am I to anybody else if my whole person is just a facade?

the last three years before i accepted myself and started to transition were the worst i could imagine, i would not wish those years on my worst enemy.....go back and read my first posts years ago about how happy i was to "go on an adventure", and "feel like a woman"...i called it "TS lite"...hahaha ..not funny at all

i did not expect this to happen..some relatives called me weak for "giving in"...i cant look at it that way.... I know too many people in the cd and ts community, and i've seen it over and over and over..you can quit smoking, you can't quit being yourself.

i'm in therapy groups with 70+ year old transitioners that are incredibly bitter and unhappy that they didnt do this years ago..it's so sad to talk to my oldest friends, some of them truly feel like it would have been better to never live...that's how bad they felt over their lives...i will not suffer that fate.

for the TS woman, like it or not, this is the choice you are making...i feel terrible saying this, but i beleive its the reality of our condition


Kate

[Stephanie Miller]

"Does it lessen the enjoyment you get from the other areas of your life?"

And now we go full circle to my main question...
Why do we feel our choice of lifestyle - because we are comfortable with it or we need to become our true selves - comes first.

Reine: I started smoking when I was 13. Stopped cold turkey a 2 pack a day, with cigars and pipes also when I was 33. Main thing that made me finally quit? Had my first baby and felt she should have a daddy, as long as I did my part. Smoking didn't fit the recipe for long life. Still crave smokes but there are things in life that come first.
Reine - Kate,
How can I live like this? It's hard, real hard. I feel my job suffers ( Don't give it my full attention while surfing fashion adds for starters ) I do whatever I can to gain some balance in marrage. I don't put it in anyones face so it comes back and backlashes on my kids, grandkids, workers etc. Nobody ever said lifes a bowl of cherries. ( Forest Gump came close though ). And I don't feel the world is my oyster and mine alone. I understand what you are saying Kate about how you feel better. I'm happy for you it worked. Maybe in my next life I will be born the way I want. Maybe in the next life the parapalegics of the world won't feel they were delt a shitty hand either. But like them - I can't do anything about it. Or would it be more correct to say because of who I am, and the cards I was delt - there isn't anything I can do about it and feel right inside doing it. They live it every day too. And they forge ahead and hold their heads up high. I intend to also. So I guess a long story short - sure I transition - sure I could feel wonderful ( I would hope that would be the outcome), but do I think others would suffer in other ways more because of it than they suffer with my "facade"? I think I come to the table with more to offer than gender. I don't feel less of a person or offer a different feeling hug to my grandkids because its Papa instead of Stephanie. I don't say I love you to my wife with any less sincerety to my wife because I'm in this body. I feel I would gain something by transitioning BUT there is sooo much more to lose because of prior obligations. So in the end am I being more selfish to me than to others by transitioning - or being more selfish to others than myself by not? Knowone wants to be labled "selfish" - that's why this thread has taken off.
Steph

[kellycan27]

At this point i believe it is time for me opt out of this thread.. I have an SO, that knows all about me. (kind of hard to hide it for very long even had I tried)
My life did come first, but did not involve another person or children. I found my way and began my transition before involving another. Not necessarily by design,but rather happenstance. It's just the way it worked out.

Reine
Some good points that I will have to ponder. The rest of you girls...Thanks.

Stephanie

Very good Thread, fun and friendly Thanks!

Kelly

[ReineD]

Kelly, I very much appreciated reading your point of view too, and I'm glad that you were able to punch trough the wall to be the person you were meant to be.

[Stephanie Miller]

A lifetime of love and happiness to you Kelly. See ya in the next thread
God Bless

P.S. Still lookin' forward to that drink in Vegas with you!