All or nothing?

[Julie York]

This might cause a few uncomfortable moments for a few people....But I think it is interesting and the replies might be very revealing...Especially from the GGs (if they dare answer honestly.)

I have noticed, that although I am a CD , (and therefore I hope quite open minded to the whole dressing up thing) there are some 'images' which really repel me.

If someone is fully made-up then it doesn't matter to me if they look like a boxer in a tutu if they give an 'impression' of being female. And if they are lucky enough to be able to shave legs and arms and shape eyebrows then the image is even better.

But when I see a photo of what is undoubtedly a man's hairy chest wearing a bra, or a hairy stomach edged by lace panties....it's ....well....a bit stomach churning to be honest, because it is so incongruous and contradictory.

Now....(the clever bit)....I have noticed that part of the process a lot of CDs go through when introducing their girlfriends/wives etc to the fact that they like dressing up, is to introduce one item at a time. "She lets me wear panties. She let's me sleep in a nighty" etc.

Now I can understand that a tolerant SO would maybe feel a little uncomfortable with this, but it is harmless and seen as a little 'quirk' of personality so they allow it.

And yet if it is pushed further, with more clothing BUT no further developments, you end up with your wife etc seeing a MAN wearing what seem to be completely ridiculous clothing and it must be both heartbreaking and very disturbing. A hairy man, wearing women's clothing and no wig or make-up is NOT a pretty sight, especially if it is her husband or boyfriend.

Yet, I genuinely think...that very same person, allowed to FULLY express the feminine feelings and image they have, would actually be less scary, less revolting and more acceptable to their significant other. The S.O. would be able to actually SEE the woman inside, the persona that drives this apparently insane activity, rather than looking on an image of their husband in drag.

I appreciate that a lot of people do not have the luxury of being able to do as they please with respect to shaving and so on. But you can cover your legs. You can hide your bushy eyebrows. You can cover your hairy arms.

But there IS NO MIDDLE GROUND without looking seriously disturbing. A hairy man in a dress, is a hairy man in a dress.

It seems to me, when it comes to dressing up, it is all or nothing.

I hope this doesn't offend anyone who is thinking "yeah it's o.k. for you!". I appreciate ALL the difficulties of hiding this absurd desire.



What do you think?

[cosmolovesph]

I'll chime in here..

As to some chest hair (which is not visable when dressed en femme) and very very short leg hair (again not really visable thru my pantyhose) is/are at the request of my understanding wife.

She likes there to be some hair and since she is so accepting and tolerant of my dressing, i can do this for her, mind you the chest hair is not in the middle or cleavage area, but where she wants it.

I can follow you train of thought, but many of us do keep hair , be it fear of others knowing or request of S/O's, or simply they don't want to shave etc...

Hope that makes sense..?

[JoannaDees]

At times I wear "my" clothes and a wig and no makeup and sans forms. I don't look quite as good as makeup does make huge difference. But sometimes it's just too much work, especially if I have things to do later. I do have the luxury of being able to shave everything, or rather I refuse to allow others to keep me from doing it. Also, I no longer have a SO to worry about.

Lastly, I would agree with you in some instances. Too much body hair does not match the feminine clothes. And stay away from the "bedroom" lingerie, that rarely looks good.

[Wendy me]

wow veary intresting although the only wendy my wife has realy seen is a halloween ..dressed up and in full make up ...then she dosen't seam to have a probleme but any outher time she can't deal with it at all ....as far as hairy goes i promised her that i would not shave my legs for the summer ....looking at my legs in a skirt it was omg there is a guy wearing my skirt... i trimed down the leg hair to a short faint almost gone but visable thing but still it's like a guy in my skirts......kinda sasquash thing .....kinda hard to get that omg thats fem and pretty when sasquash is wearing a skirt.....good thread ......

[Julie York]

The thing is.....I'm not knocking anyone who can't shave for whatever reasons. I was thinking of the situation more from the GG perspective. That half and half stage of dressing that is really a bit disturbing.

[Mx Justina]

From personal life experience... the more natural the appearance(NOT necessarily inferring "pretty")...the more calmer the reaction of strangers in public settings... It even applies to areas inhospitable to transgenders and alternate lifestylers.

If the individual cannot integrate this lifestyle in some reasonable manner into his life...he will be continually generating tension and reactive negativity (IMO).

J.

[Jenny Beth]

You make some good points here Julie. While I am fortunate that I can keep myself shaved the makeup part mostly takes a back seat when I dress. It's not that I can't but more along the lines that it's a huge hassle. It takes me more than an hour to do a reasonable job and even more for a good job only to wash it all off in a few hours. Also is the possibility that someone might drop by which has happened and I make a mad dash for the shower while my wife makes the excuses. I guess what all this boils down to is where your comfort level is with yourself and/or your SO.

[Sherlyn]

it is a bit disturbing..... i cannot bear to even look at myself like that...

[Fallen Angel]

there are alot of people that just like the feel of satin and silk across there body. is it a fetish could and might be. alot of the members here stay at home and never leave there suroundings. are they content with that proublaby. there are so many degrees of cross dressing on a personal scale whos to say. my freind doent care that im shaved all over that when i dress its from head to toe to be completely "la"fem or that i go out that way but for some others the tolerance level can be very low.i never look at the corners of a box always beond them.

[Tamara Croft]

The hair.... I totally agree. Hair IMHO is gross whether it's on a male or female. Tam's leg hairs had grown..... quite a bit..... and I kept telling her they were gross. She said she was keeping them for the summer so she can wear shorts!!! Well.. I think I got through to her because she waxed them She has hairy arms, but they are blonde.... not really noticable and she shaves/waxes her chest. Theres nothing worse than seeing pictures with hairs sticking out in places here and there. But I do believe Tam is what I call a fetish CD... it's not about getting dolled up to the nines, it's just about expressing her feelings about soft things... velvet to be precise and just the love of feeling fem. I don't think you need to slap on make-up to feel fem, I think that comes from the inside.

As for the 'she lets' me bit, I don't 'let' her do anything. She does/wears whatever she wants around the house, in bed... etc. We are what I call still a closeted couple regarding her being a crossdresser and we don't venture out in the daylight as a few couples on here do. We have been out at night and she has come out to meet me wearing a little skirt and boots.... no wig... no make-up (gave an old guy a giggle at 6am the other morning), but to me that was just natural, it's how I see her all the time. The wig and make-up don't come out that often, although she paints her nails all the time.

I suppose it depends on how far you can take the crossdressing in your own relationship. Not all GG's/SO's are as open minded as me. But then again that has only come along with a lot of research and my willingness to do that. For those partners that have rules on what can be worn, what can be shaved/waxed etc, I just don't get that at all. I think if I started laying down rules for Tam.... she wouldn't be the person she is today.

I hope this is honest enough for you Julie

[MonaSmith]

I seem to do the opposite of most so far, in that I wear make up all the time. I am in a bit of a grey area, I dress in drab but wear make-up and womens accessories, I am getting more feminine in my appearence while in drab. This includes hairless arms, legs, chest etc. I am trying to get rid of the divide between 'him' and 'her' and just be 'me' somewhere in the middle. I suppose to some eyes I do look ridiculous, but for now , until I have found my place, it will have to be that way.

Having said that, when I do dress fully, I dress FULLY (running out of foundation notwithstanding )

Mona x.

[Marla GG]

This might cause a few uncomfortable moments for a few people....But I think it is interesting and the replies might be very revealing...Especially from the GGs (if they dare answer honestly.)

I'm afraid if I answer honestly my days here will be numbered.....however, this subject is VERY near and dear to my heart, so I can't not answer.

First, you should know that for most wives and partners, seeing their husband or boyfriend completely en femme is MUCH harder to accept than lingerie or clothing alone, regardless of the amount of hair or other masculine features that are present. As hard as this is for some CDs to imagine, many women LIKE male body hair. They even like facial hair. They like big muscles and tattoos. Removing those signs of maleness from a man's body is "stomach churning" to them. So the more convincingly feminine you look, the more turned off they are. I know of many SOs who can accept partial crossdressing, but "draw the line" at seeing their partner trying to actually look like a woman. For a woman who is not lesbian or bisexual, her partner's apparent transformation into a female--even though she knows it is still her man underneath--is very disturbing. The attraction she normally feels for him in guy mode vanishes, and there is a sense of loss and confusion. When she does finally come to terms with it, she still may never feel comfortable kissing or making love with her partner en femme. To do that requires some pretty sophisticated mental gymnastics.....not quite "close your eyes and think of England," but "close your eyes and think of the man you married."

The things that I would say are hardest for most women to accept their partner wearing are:
1. Wigs, because they seem to create an almost instant change of identity and make the "man" unrecognizable.
2. Makeup, for the same reasons.
3. Breastforms, because the idea of being intimate with someone who has breasts is not easy for a lot of women to handle.
4. Bras, because they are associated with breasts.
5. A hairless body, because again it looks and feels too much like a woman's body.

So, although you'd think it would be easier to accept a fully made-up and beautiful version of your femme self, most SOs feel exactly the opposite.

[SIZE=4]NOW[/SIZE]......having said that.....not all women feel this way, including yours truly. I will admit that I used to have a slight aversion to wigs and forms, way back when, but I got over it. However, I have always loved effeminate men. Besides the fact that it seems psychologically healthy to strive for the integration of both genders into one’s identity, I also happen to find it attractive. Very attractive. Okay, downright irresistible. In my teenage years, those 80’s New Wave icons with their arched eyebrows, ruffled blouses and lipstick used to make me weak in the knees. I have an aversion to body hair and actually feel disgusted by it. Yet I am not turned on by women at all. When I look at my husband, I like being able to see the man within the woman and the woman within the man. I love it, for example, when Angel removes his wig after being en femme, but leaves on the makeup and big earrings. There is no way he could be mistaken for a woman at that point. Rather, he is a feminized male, or as I like to call him, a girly boy. That look really just does something for me, know what I'm saying? Seeing my baby all dolled up in full wig and makeup is wonderful too…..but I’m glad it doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

[Robertacd]

But there IS NO MIDDLE GROUND without looking seriously disturbing. A hairy man in a dress, is a hairy man in a dress.

There is plenty of middle ground... What ever make a person feel femenine is all it really takes. Even if you end up looking like a hairy guy in a dress. My wife like to see me in just a bra (no forms) matching panties, garterbelt and stockings alomst more than fully dressed. I rarely do full makeup and only shave my legs in winter. You know when I put on a skirt, my forms, bra and a top, and look in the mirror I see a woman looking back. Not the prettiest woman in the world but still a woman and thats good enough for me.

So I guess what I am trying to say is its what's inside that counts, not how passable or pretty you are.

[umbrellagirl GG]

Okay on topic now - I have seen a few pics here where guys were in a dress and nylons and her legs were totally hairy. The truth is, even if it were a girl like that, it would make me cringe!

I remember that I had a girlfriend who at one time decided that she wasn't going to shave under her armpits and it just made me ill. She didn't shave her legs either. It just doesn't work for women to have hairy legs. You know, if I met a guy who crossdresses, I would rather he just say to me that he wants to totally dress up en femme than doing the piece by piece routine described by julie in the first post.

I remember one time I was out taking a walk with a girlfriend. We followed a foot path near her house that has a long set of stairs. At the bottom of the stairs (and coming up and down) was a guy obviously in running shorts, getting his excercise clearly by running up and down the stairs. We stopped and made small talk with him. Commented that the stairs were a pain!

After we left on our way, we both said that we noticed that his legs were completely shaven. I speculated, does that mean he's gay? And then I laughed that one off and said it doesn't really make sense. We both came to the conclusion that we had no idea why he shaves his legs, but maybe that's what athletes do. Furthermore, our ultimate conclusion, to which we both wholeheartedly agreed, was that we simply didn't care. So he's got shaved legs? Oh well. We decided that in this day and age that if you see a guy with shaved legs then oh well ...

The other Julie mentioned had to do with the make-up. It's true that extreme make-up looks terrible imho. It's another thing that I wouldn't want to see on either a girl or a guy. I cringe when I see photos of men that look like they are trying to wear full on drag queen appearance make up. That's never passable in my mind. And it looks horrible on Tammy Faye and those kinds of women too. But there are almost none of those kinds of pics around here. It seems as though 99% of you have got the knack for putting on make up (which makes me very curious about the beauty club! Are gg's allowed in there?).

Whew. I've rambled way too long now.

Melody

[Di]

For alot of couples the only way they work it out is rules...no shaving ect.
I do not understand that but that is just me. Guess I do have two rules lol ,,,winks at Greta...always nighties and always shaved. Other than that no other rules.We are striving for the day when Greta can just be Greta 24/7.

[Tamara Croft]

(which makes me very curious about the beauty club! Are gg's allowed in there?).

Melody

They sure are Send a request to DanaJ.. you will be amazed how much these girlz here know about beauty.

Back on topic now

One thing I have noticed in a lot of pictures, is the make-up. Especially the eyeshadow, colour, contrast, how it has been applied etc. And I've noticed that BLUE seems to be the colour nearly all CD's wear and not just a bit on the lower lid, it's on the whole of the eyelid. Now.... this is the part I really don't get and why this colour (although it is in fashion right now) is so greatly used?? Blue just doesn't go with anything.... especially not bright pink blusher... So enlighten me, what is with the blue eyeshadow?? I know it seems like a long standing joke on this forum, but I really would like to know.

[Cissy Suzie]

One thing I have noticed in a lot of pictures, is the make-up. Especially the eyeshadow, colour, contrast, how it has been applied etc. And I've noticed that BLUE seems to be the colour nearly all CD's wear? ... Blue just doesn't go with anything....

I agree about the blue eyeshadow, and why so much? I will admit, I imagine Blue was the first color I tried though, I think in the middle 1960's when I really started paying attention to girls, most of the high school cuties were wearing frosted blue eyeshadow. LOTS of it!

I soon abandoned blue though and try to look almost natural with my eyes using various brown, taupe, neutral shades, along with a tiny bit of pink and very stark white blended into the middle area, when I get it right my eyes look bigger and farther apart.


Back to the main topic, I would never want anyone to see me dressed up and looking like a man. I do go from nearly hairless to full blown ape redneck hairy from season to season but even so, when I dress up I make sure that the hairy qualities don't show too much

Just my opinion, I try to make myself look as femme as possible if I am going to go to the trouble of dressing up. Just putting on a pair of panties and sitting around does nothing for Suzie at all

[jenniferluv]

I know of NO ONE , of any persuasion who conforms to any other person's image of "normal" ... much less crossdressers...to each his/her own!!!

[susandrea]

Very interesting thread.

I think the topic falls under what looks good PERIOD. As some already said, our culture doesn't particularly appreciate a woman showing off hairy legs and pits, so a man doing it is no exception. (One thing I always find baffling are women who let facial mole hairs grow to shocking lengths, then smear makeup around them. Have they never heard of tweezers??? Don't their friends give them a hint???)

Some people just need to work out their look better. It doesn't neccessarily mean you should be more masculine or more feminine, but find a look that's right for YOU. Your clothing should be clean, neat, well co-ordinated, FIT PROPERLY, and cover up what probably should be covered up. (I can't count all the babes I've seen this summer---at any age--wearing belly shirts with 20 or more pounds of naked flab hanging out. ICK!) And makeup should accentuate your features in a positive way, not make you look like a clown. (SOOOOO many women I know cake on the makeup even if their SO's HATE IT!!!!! And some just keep doing the same thing since high school even though they've long outgrown that look, OR they stay locked in a particular decade---the eighties is a big fav---and don't realize that a free makeover at a department store would do them a world of good and give them a much needed update).

For crossdressers in particular, as difficult as it is to go shopping for some, it may be particularly important that you find clothes that fit and suit you visually, not just emotionally. If you're over 30, the teen girl look is going to look silly on you just as it looks silly on a GG. Same with makeup and anything else. If you can't find a trusted friend who would tell you the TRUTH, then scope out the fashion magazines that are suited to your age group---many of them have "Do and Don't" columns that make a lot of sense.

That doesn't mean you have to "conform" to someone else's standard, but you don't want to look like a coo-coo, either. There are plenty of ways to develop your own sense of style and look GOOD. An "wrong look" can be spotted a mile away on anybody. (As a nation America has gotten pretty sloppy in the name of comfort. Sometimes I long for the days before the late sixties when people made an effort to look nice even if they were just going to the market.)

Crossdressers though, in my opinion, often go the other way---overdone. This past week I spotted a young crossdresser who looked great except for one thing---her wig was way too perfect and a hot, shiny platinum color that didn't even come close to natural. If she wanted to be stared at she got her wish because it was way too "Dolly Parton" for such a young person (about 18 or so) and didn't go with the jean skirt, halter top, and sandals she was wearing. I know it sounds like a picky thing, but the phoniness of the wig ruined her look for me. One thing I notice most about crossdressers is they often go "All Out" with the femme stuff, hitting every area with gusto (hair, makeup, nails, jewelry, clothes) often dressing up as thought they're going to a wedding instead of to the mall--- GGs rarely do that, and too much makes you stand out even more. I understand WHY it's done, but I bet if you find out what your best asset is and let that shine while letting the rest follow as a secondary compliment you'll see that you'll look your best and far more natural.

As far as bargaining with a SO about what you can and cannot do---I dunno. If it were me I'd want my SO to look and feel his best and if he had a hard time getting the right look I'd march him down to a stylist for a "Day of Beauty" so that together we could find him a look that suited us both (and not too high maintenance, either!). But that's just me. I realize that many of you are just trying to keep things together as best you can and I admire you for it.

I like to see men, no matter how they're dressed---in a suit or a skirt--- look RIGHT. Stylish but comfortable, and most of all confident. You know it when you see it and it has nothing to do with natural beauty.

The French have a term that translates as "Beautiful Ugly" (belle laide) and it refers to women who-- though they may not have been born with a physical beauty-- have so much grace, elegance, and confidence in the way they present themselves that they are very attractive indeed.

[Rachel Morley]

This a weird one for me because I have changed my viewpoint. I used to really not like myself with make up on, but no wig. I could wear something pretty with no hair or make up and just enjoy the femme feeling. (women's clothes grip you in different places than men's that's why just the clothes themselves feel femme to me). But I didn't really like to look in the mirror that much.

If I ever did go the whole en femme look with full make up and a wig, when I took it off I used to think I was unattractive. This stems from the fact that at the time I was single, and a couple of times when I was at a costume party when I was dressed this way and I took my wig off (I don't have much hair and what I do have is kept very short) gg's would say "oh gosh" or "put it back on you look nicer with hair".

But now, things are different because Marla has encouraged me to be accepting of, not only my crossdressing, but also be accepting of myself for who I am, which means that whatever looks back at you in the mirror is how you are (including make up and no wig) and you should be comfortable with it.

The big, big thing (for us) is that Marla loves the "feminized Angel look" a look that clearly says "this is a guy in girl's clothes and make up". In fact, in my normal everyday clothing I am always non manly and I often openly wear women's clothes as a guy in public (but obviously toned down a little).

So I totally agree with Mona when she says:

I am trying to get rid of the divide between 'him' and 'her' and just be 'me' somewhere in the middle.

[Julie]

After joining this board, it sure makes me think that I wish I could meet a crossdressing heterosexual man! It just looks like a ton of fun to be had with an SO.

Melody

Melody,
I'd venture to say more than half the CDs here are hetero. I am not interested in men in the least and I've seen others post similar comments.

Now as for hair and feminine clothing -

I will only speak for myself, but I'd never leave the house, or even show my face to another human being, if I had male body hair showing. I'm kind of a perfectionist but mostly I think it's a slap in the face to women and I respect them too much to do that.

A year ago last June I shaved all my body hair and have kept it like that ever since. I doubt I'll ever let it grow back. I hate what it looks like on me. Now my ex, on the other hand, loved my body hair. Maybe that was the straw that broke the camel's back for her. I would have grown it back for her if we had a solid marriage but that was far from reality. So I did what I wanted to for the first time in my life and shaved and that's how I keep it.

There are times I'm not totally clean shaven that I'll putz around the house in femme clothes (usually skorts and a T) but no one will ever see that but me. And when I pass a mirror I usually look away.

I won't criticize anyone else for what they do. It's not my place. This is just how I feel about myself. Hairlessness is for me.

[Julie]

our culture doesn't particularly appreciate a woman showing off hairy legs and pits

One Halloween, many moons ago, I dressed in a single sleeved black dress and open toe heels with black pantyhose. I didn't shave anything and wasn't wearing a wig (I didn't own one then). So legs, chest and armpits were obviously sporting manly hair. I looked anything but femme.

There was a guy there from somewhere in Europe who was visiting. Someone came up to me and said, "Paul loves your legs!" I looked down at the leg hair showing through the sheer black hose and looked up confused. Then I was told, "In Europe, women don't shave their legs and that look is sexy to Paul."

So body hair isn't a turn off to everyone.

[susandrea]

Yeah---and many European men much prefer women to keep their armpit hair.

But not so much in the U.S.

[JoannaDees]

After joining this board, it sure makes me think that I wish I could meet a crossdressing heterosexual man! It just looks like a ton of fun to be had with an SO.

I expect that your PM box if completely FULL!

[kathy gg]

Going to second everything Marla said regarding what most SO's reactions are. Ie..the more girly their guy looks, like convicningly female the more they are turned off/freightened/freaked out.

Will also second that I have seen my husband in every different state of dress. Breast form and bra, but no wig or make-up and a tshirt and jeans, and maybe wig /sundress, shoes, no forms or make up. Really every odd combination you can imagine. Sometimes fresh from a shave of face, sometimes with one days hair growth. Full femme ready to leave the house, ect.

None of them is overtly disturbing or upsetting. No matter how great or passable or what ever you want to call it, I always see the guy underneath. Could be we have been together 6 yrs, could be I know every freckle and every inch of his body, could be maybe he is looking more guyish than femish (is that even a word?) that day.

I guess I am so in love I am not as critical or disturbed (maybe it is me who is actually disturbed? haha!). than your average woman off the street.

Actually the other day we had friends come over to use our place to get ready and go out for the night. We could not go as we had no sitter, so Amanda was in sort of half-ass girl mode (bikini top, with sheer cover up, cut off girl shorts, and sandles, wig, and no make up). My friends wife comented to me later that she found it a bit odd (maybe she wanted to say disturbing) and asked if he often dressed like that at home. Of course he does, but her husband does not as they have kids who don't know. So it was kind of odd for her to see it, but becasue we know them so well Amanda was comfortable in that mode....

Anyway...

hugs
kathy in canada