Why Can Women Dress In Mens And Not Vica Versa?

[Rachel Ann]

Curtsies to Ophelia and Puer, who said it well.

I think that it's directly related to the historical undervaluation of women in our society - i.e. "What does it matter how they dress, they're only women".

Along these lines, hardcore porn (including live shows) tends to attract less outrage and law enforcement when only women are involved. "What does it matter what they do, they're only women."

[Clare]

If you look back through history, men traditioanally have worn skirt type clothes with what we would call leggings or tights today.

When you think about it, skirts leave more space for the 'jewells' than pants do, so for practical purposes, skirts are actually more comfortable!

I guess for the last centuray or so, dresses and skirts have become the only item that is exclusively the possession of women these days.

If the male masses could experience just how comfortable a lot of womens wear is, let a lone sensual, there'd be a big fashion change in a short period of time!

Christine

[AshleyAshes]

This isn't about skirts anyway. Skirts are not necessarily feminin. The kilt is essentually a skirt and there's little feminin about it. A skirt is feminin because it is an item of clothing ment for women, a kilt is masculine because it is made for men.

Same with jeans, different styles for different genders, even the zippers going on different sides depending on the gender. Thusly, pants are no longer 'male'. There are womens jeans and mens jeans, mens jeans are male and women's jeans are female.

[Drucilla]

Maybe it's the MEN who have changed, not the women. Look back a couple of hundred years--men wore wigs, tights, very frilly "blouses", makeup (at least powdered faces),corsets, etc. Hell, from a lot the pictures I have seen , men dressed as fancy --if not more so --than women. And it was the top of the social ladder that dressed the most ! Something other men aspired to be like. Where did it all go "wrong"?

Also, think of the possibilities this could open up .
Well Dear,
I got the wig to see what George Washington really was feeling when he fathered a country. And to think , we carry a picture of a man in a wig in wallets everyday--at least those of us in the US.
The earring ? To get in touch with the pirate within. After all Black Beard wore one.
The high heels ? Well they made Nepolian look taller.
The shaved legs ? Lance Armstrong of course . Now there's a man who's not ashame of showing off his shave legs in public ! Maybe not ancient history but a ture roll model anyway !
The tights? Robin Hood obviously. At least mine aren't green !
The eyeliner ? Have you looked at King Tut lately ?
And on and on . The possibilites are endless. Maybe it's time for a new "Roots" movement.

[Ophelia D'Void]

It's interesting that in the past women wore long skirts and men wore shorter skirts with tights.

The tights were actually a trend started by the monastic orders, being a symbol of chastity (have you ever tried getting busy with tights on?). Eventually the look caught on with the upper classes, and the lower classes trying to emulate the upper classes. Often times tights were a sign of one's station in life. It was difficult to make tights that fit, so depending on how well your hosiery fit, the higher your station in life.

Heels were started by the Mongolians I think. During the Han dynasty, when the Mongolians invaded China, they were enamored by the Chinese styles, and especially the women, with their bound feet, and the belief that with the mincing steps associated with foot binding, tightened pelvic muscles gave other areas certain tightness. The Mongolians then tried to get their women to bind their feet, but they said "no way", but instead they got the women to wear heels as a compromise, which still made their feet look smaller and affected their gait, but wasn't permanent.

Eh, just a side note of useless facts...

O

[AshleyAshes]

Maybe it's the MEN who have changed, not the women. Look back a couple of hundred years--men wore wigs, tights, very frilly "blouses", makeup (at least powdered faces),corsets, etc. Hell, from a lot the pictures I have seen , men dressed as fancy --if not more so --than women. And it was the top of the social ladder that dressed the most ! Something other men aspired to be like. Where did it all go "wrong"?

By the upper class, sure. Of course in the lower classes, which constituted just about everybody in Europe they tended to dress as what they were, peasents.

That's like saying everyone in America dresses like eccentric rock stars, because they'e all on TV while the masses that shop at Wal-Mart are ignored. :/

[Drucilla]

Ashley,
My point was simply that many of the things many of us worry so much about public acceptance of today -wigs, pierced ears, tights, heels, etc.---were at one time not only accpted by socity but were things that many men aspired to emulate. Sorry if you read something more into my comments.

[Deborah757]

Maybe the real answer is not in the fashion, which as some have stated changes from time to time and culture to culture.

The real answer is that women dressed in "Men's clothes" as you say, are not trying to look like men. CDers dressed in traditionally women's clothing are trying to look like and pass as women.

That is what people object to, not the clothes themselves.

[JenniRose]

Women can wear men's pants and clothing since they took many of the men's jobs during WWII.

Men have never really taken women's jobs, though there is some in-roads being made in the nursing, teaching and home-maker areas.

I guess the world thinks it is okay for a woman to act masculine, but not the other way around. I'm not sure why, but I don't like it.

I can do my job every bit as well in a nice dress, skirt suit or skirt set as I can it the restrictive suit I have to wear everyday.

I am a person with creative talents and specialized knowledge. Does it matter if I wear a skirt or pants? Can you not get over your age-old predjudices?

I, and many of my sisters, want to be accepted as being female, even if born with a male body.

We are not out to seduce you...most of us have significant others.

We are not out to change your children...like us, they must find their own way.

We are not out to change the world...well maybe we are. All we ask for is acceptance.

Since those that are reading this already know what I am talking about, it is wasted. We need to reach those that only think they are single gendered. All of us are bi-gendered, only the degree of the bi-genderism matters.

Thanks to listening to my ravings...it was not a good day at work today.

JenniRose

[Rachel Ann]

By the upper class, sure. Of course in the lower classes, which constituted just about everybody in Europe, they tended to dress as what they were, peasants.

Maybe the real answer is not in the fashion, which as some have stated changes from time to time and culture to culture.

The real answer is that women dressed in "Men's clothes" as you say, are not trying to look like men. CDers dressed in traditionally women's clothing are trying to look like and pass as women.

That is what people object to, not the clothes themselves.

WELL SAID, Ashley and Deborah! Even in the 20th century, there have been cultures (Spain, Argentina, etc.) where owning a shirt was a big deal. The same goes for shoes, and perhaps still does.

Another thought: Women are expected to be fashion conscious, and men are not. So, women are given greater latitude in what constitutes “fashion”. Or, perhaps, it’s just another sop to an otherwise disadvantaged class.

[Ophelia D'Void]

Women can wear men's pants and clothing since they took many of the men's jobs during WWII.

Men have never really taken women's jobs, though there is some in-roads being made in the nursing, teaching and home-maker areas.

I guess the world thinks it is okay for a woman to act masculine, but not the other way around. I'm not sure why, but I don't like it.

I can do my job every bit as well in a nice dress, skirt suit or skirt set as I can it the restrictive suit I have to wear everyday.

I am a person with creative talents and specialized knowledge. Does it matter if I wear a skirt or pants? Can you not get over your age-old predjudices?

I, and many of my sisters, want to be accepted as being female, even if born with a male body.

We are not out to seduce you...most of us have significant others.

We are not out to change your children...like us, they must find their own way.

We are not out to change the world...well maybe we are. All we ask for is acceptance.

Since those that are reading this already know what I am talking about, it is wasted. We need to reach those that only think they are single gendered. All of us are bi-gendered, only the degree of the bi-genderism matters.

Thanks to listening to my ravings...it was not a good day at work today.

JenniRose

Maybe the stigma is that people associate dressing with sex (which is stigmatized in its own right in the US). Heck, sex is considered worse than violence in this country.

I think part of what made people accept gays is that they started seeing it as a lifestyle thing rather than a sexual thing. Was watching Queer Eye with Ayla last night, and they were fixing up a guy who was a nudist. And the nudist was saying that they get as much flack as gays do, since they often associate it with something sexual, which it isn't.

Well, maybe with gays it's a little sexual, just as with dressing, but then again, isn't that what distinguishes people that are straight too??? It's still sexual, it's just about who you choose to have sex with. Maybe the celibates are just sitting on the sidelines laughing at everyone... since they're on the moral high ground on this one.

[arula]

why is it women can wear men type clothes /boots etc and nothing is said?
BUT VICA VERSA IS A BIG ISSUE
WHY?

Ahhhh... The joys of being a boy dressing to be a girl. I get hot every time I do it.

[Anita]

some very good reading in the varied answers.
Thank you girls for your contributions
Anita xx

[Julie]

Did you find that search button hmm?? or did you become Mystic Julie

I learned from the best. And remember, everybody likes a nice @$$, nobody likes a wise @$$

[Tamara Croft]

I learned from the best. And remember, everybody likes a nice @$$, nobody likes a wise @$$

I've heard that before..... well I have a nice @$$ and the wise @$$ well... she's gone ta bed.....

[emmicd]

I think there is now a blending of how people dress on the big stage. There are creative and very talented male musicians who dress androgynous or for that matter very feminine.

It seems the more artistic or creative the person the more blurred their style of dress can be. I'm not trying to generalize but that is the impression I get.

Even some other celebs like Eddie Izzard is known for his crossdressing.

On the stage it seems to be more acceptable then it does in the general workplace. I think the biggest hurdle is relaxing the dress code at work which will never happen in the near future.

However if a guy wants to walk around in the mall in a dress by enhancing his femme image and work on passability I certainly feel he/she can do it without too much opposition. As long as they conduct themselves properly and try not to make a commotion about it. Usually though they only do it on a very limited basis and never reveal it to others. They usually go it alone!

Emmi

[Catherine in Colo]

I hate to be the wet blanket on this conversation, but to me, the answer to this question is obvious, and has little to do with anthropology or fashion.

First, I think it is safe to say that for most tv/ts/cd folk, we dress because we gain a certain degree of fulfillment, pleasure, or enjoyment from the specific act of wearing women’s clothing. While in a perfect world, that should be perfectly acceptable, there is seldom any correlation between why we aren’t accepted wearing women’s clothing and why women are accepted wearing men’s clothing.

When women wear pants, or a man-tailored shirt, they don’t tape down their breasts, wear men’s briefs underneath, or insert of phallus into their shorts. They are not attempting to “pass” as men, nor are they usually gaining any specific pleasure in the fact that they are wearing “masculine” clothing, not to the same degree that we find in wearing feminine clothing.

While I do agree that women enjoy a liberation when it comes to fashion options that most men just don’t have, I would guess that the vast majority of women view those fashion options as ones that enhance their femininity, while I would also guess that very few crossdressers see their desire to wear “feminine” clothing as something that enhances their masculinity.

Until crossdressers start wearing skirts, heels, or blouses to the office without worrying about stuffing our bras, shaving our legs, or “tucking,” then I don’t see how this is a valid argument…

Renee.

[Anita]

i THINK YOU HIT THE NAIL SQUARE ON THE HEAD THERE RENEE. THANK YOU FOR POSTING IN MY FORUM

[RhondaLynn]

Everyone posting here seems to have some very valid points, all of which are parts of the whole, that being a very complex and varied whole, depending on who you ask.

Yes, women crossed the gender-specific work roles during the WW - remembering the 'Rosie the Riveter' images.

And Yes, there is always the testosterone-dripping masculine crowd awaiting their chance to condemn anyone who causes them to question their sexuality.

I remember back in the late '60s and early 70s, when women were fighting for the right to wear 'pant suits' (uggh - knit polyester beasties) to work. The male-dominant society at the time dictated what was and was not acceptable for women in the office workplace (at least around here). It took them years to gain acceptance to wear slacks in lieu of dresses, skirts, hose, girdles, etc. to work - they suffered & fought for their right to dress as they wished in the workplace (although their generation for the most part never really achieved competitive salaries compared to men in the same positions).

They wanted to change their fashion, which had been dictated by men, they won their fight, and a new era of women's fashion was born. However, as stated earlier in this thread, the new era saw clothes designed for women to match their gender & body types that were appropriate for their work environment. And since few women really want to 'look masculine' (those who do have no problem with it though...) - women's fashions have evolved over time to a point where literally anything is now acceptable, for the most part. Basically, women are now dictating what they wear - the male-dominance in society of womens attire has shifted.

There are those who continue to confuse the innocent CDer browsing at camisoles & slips @ Wal-Mart as sexual deviants & child molesters (a few months ago I was doing just that, and an eldely couple did a double-take at me as their grandchild wandered down the isle toward me - the lady snatched the child, gave me a COLD stare, and said something like 'come on child - let's get away from here'. Sheesh - but then, there are those who cannot overcome their primary socialization, no matter how off-target it may have been or has become through the years. One must overlook them.

Then, uhhh - oh yeah - the secret power part! There are women who know that there is a secret power associated w/ femininity - they know that we who dare cross over have seen the light, but they want to jealously covet the secrets for themselves. To have us wandering around discovering the source of their powers presents a clear & present danger to them, and they will stop at no end to ensure that they alone retain said secrets.

And of course, there are the women who already feel insecure in their own sexuality (thanks, current society, for projecting a false image of what a 'woman' should be to our upcoming young female generations), and not taking all being stated in this thread into consideration, feel threatened by men who want be what they themselves struggle so hard to maintain - being what is perceived to be a 'woman' in today's society.

Oh yes - Kilts. I have used the statement made earlier in this thread regarding men & kilts many times in defense when being aggressively confronted by psycho-SO as she outs me in front of her friends, men have external plumbing - we need the extra space & freedom that an open-bottom garment provides. I find it relaxing to come home after work, shed my work clothes & wrap a skirt around me as i lounge around the house in the evening.
As to kilts vs. skirts - i'm afraid there is a difference: As a man at work once told a GG co-worker (He was a Celtic warrior in a Renaissance Guild, and was in town talking about how 'on the weekends he puts on a kilt, straps on his long sword, and is a Celtic Warrior. She was totally mesmerized, telling everyone about it at lunch. Her biggest question was 'what on earth do they wear under those things?'. Having taken quite a bit of World History in college, i immediately answered 'Nothing. The Scotts in the middle ages NEVER wore anything under their Kilts - they 'liked the freedom' or something of the sort - i forget the professor's actual words. annnyway closing this quote (she finally asked him)) (he said): "Lady, if you wear anything under it, it's not a Kilt anymore - it's a Skirt !!!, as he walked away scowling. I looked at her and said 'See - i tried to tell ya.'

ok, ok, gotta let the kbd cool off. But as I think i opened with, this is a wide & varied subject. Many things work both together & against the Collective (the acceptance of people who have no problem with their duality of gender).
I doubt it will ever be 'accepted', but to a certain degree, it is being 'ignored' more than when I was younger. We're getting there - we may never actually 'get there' (in the limit as acceptance(t) approaches unity), but we'll get rather close if we don't blow it.

Don't I have a job or something I'm supposed to be at today?

[axdressa]

why is it women can wear men type clothes /boots etc and nothing is said?
BUT VICA VERSA IS A BIG ISSUE
WHY?

I said the same thing ages ago ... women have been wearing male clothes for years ... nothing is ever said about it .. but if a male dresses in womens clothes he is classed as a pervert, gay or worse
hugz Mallisa xxx

[Katie Ashe]

Because...
Your A guy, why would you want to...
Do as I say, Not as I do.
Womens Lib...
Mr. Allen Gant Senior invented pantyhose...
Otto Titzling didn't envent the bra for men...