Coming out to children. Is it a good Idea?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I will start this off by saying that I do not have any kids of my own. I have over the past few years due to some financial woes, had to live with my parents, also living here has been my brother, who has his daughters. He also was forced to live her due to financial issues, namely having had to spend thousands and thousands of dollars on legal fees in order to win partial custody of his girls.

I recently came out to my parents, and started dressing in skirts in public, but without discussing this with anyone else in my family, I made the personal decision that I would not dress at all at home whenever the girls are here. The reason for this, however, is because knowing their mother, I feel she would use it in court as an attempt to show that our home isn't fit for the girls. Also, they're not my kids and it is not my decision. I haven't really talked to my brother about my crossdressing and I'm not sure my dad has talked to him about it either, but I know that it is my brother's choice to decide what his kids know.

Having said that, if I were married and had my own kids I would not keep this a secret from them. Everything I've read on the subject points to "the earlier the better" in the approach to telling them, and presenting it as "just something daddy does" as opposed to "This is the family secret and you must not tell anyone!" because then it never is presented to them as something wrong or something they need to feel a burden about. I do agree with people that you do have to be prepared that your kids might "out" you, but in my case this isn't that big a concern cause I've outted myself already.

Dan Savage of the fantastic Savage Love column and podcast had an episode this year (118) that dealt with this issue. The first caller is a woman who found out her father was a crossdresser when she was 12 and was now struggling to decide if she should let her own daughter know about it. I recommend a listen to it for anyone who just wants to at least hear another perspective on the subject (however, it is a sex-advice show so if you listen to the other callers, know that going in so you aren't scandalized. )

[JamieOH]

My 12 year old son walked in on me wearing a lace trimmed cami, bra, and panties the other night... all he did was call me a weirdo and go back to bed.. it hasn't changed the way he treats me, or acts around me... and I wont bring it back up to him.. I will continue to not flaunt it around him, to keep it mostly hidden...

[sheidelmeidel]

I have raised kids, so I'm speaking from experience:

I think you are in a good healthy situation now and should not "rock the boat" with an explicit "coming out". Just continue doing what you do and if it at some point they figure out everything, so be it. But save the coming out party for when they are grown up - at least college age. Then you will not risk complicating their personal lives with friends, school, and so on, as you mentioned. Kids have enough to deal with today without the complication of "dad in a dress".

[sherri52]

You're most of the way there now. Tell them but don't show them unless they ask. Make sure your SO is on board with this before you do so you will have support when you tell them.

[DaphneGrey]

Thank You all for the responses they are much appreciated! I haven't had time to sit and give my full attention to all of them as of yet. I plan to when I have a few quiet moments.

I was chatting with both of my kids and my wife as we were going over our Halloween photo album. As many of you know I did Halloween enfemme this year. They both offered ideas for a costume for next year. My oldest suggested Flo from the progressive insurance commercials. My youngest suggested I be Revolutionary Girl Utena my favorite anime heroine.

I know it's not the same thing it was just such a cute moment I thought I would share it.

As for full disclosier I do not think I will tell them for simple reason that their lives are complicated enough. My Wife and I expect a lot from our children academically and socially. I just don't see the point in giving them something else to stress over.

If asked I wouldn't lie but at the same time in my situation at least I think what is currently working works. I am sure my oldest already knows at least to some extent any way.

[Lorileah]

I hate getting into these conversations so late because all the good answers are taken.

I am against hiding. I believe that you should be as honest with the children as they can handle. In my mind it is worst to give your children double standards. On one hand you tell your children, be yourself. You don't have to fit a mold. Then we tell them that presenting in any manner that we don't consider "normal" is wrong. We tell them to tell us the truth and that they can ask us anything. Then we hide and lie. Doesn't anyone wonder about that? You want to be a role model? Be a role model in all aspects. Kids are not stupid, they are not as naive as we would like them to be (and it has been that way for hundreds of years. Remember how stupid your parents seemed to be about what you were doing when you were a teenager? They sure get smarter when we get to be adults don't they?)

How do you react when your son comes home and says "Jimmy's dad collects 62 Chevy Novas." Do you say "well Jimmy's dad is an idiot. Everyone knows 65's are better."? Hopefully you will say how great that is and that Jimmy's dad can teach Jimmy how a normally aspirated carburetor works. Is Jimmy's dad better than you are? Of course not. Is Jimmy's dad a better man than you are because he has grease under his nails? No. Is Jimmy's dad a better role model? Absolutely not. What you wear does not make you a dad. There is no "Dad" uniform. Some dads wear Brooks Brothers suits. Some wear overalls. Some wear police uniforms, or military uniforms, or scrubs. It isn't the package you are selling, it is the contents. So if you wear a dress does that make you less a dad. Dads are dads no matter what.

How you raise YOUR children says a lot about you. You don't have a lot of control about how narrow minded parents raise theirs. But those other children will see how caring and loving you are, and how forthright and honest you are and some of that will rub off.

[DaphneGrey]

Loriella and Jive Turkey,

Some really great thoughts I really get what your saying. It is a tough issue to say the least. The other day my family and I were walking around Boston Aquarium. My oldest spotted a trans woman in the gift shop and he asked about her in a rather curious way. He asked if "He was allowed to use the ladies room" I said "I believe she is in this state but not Sure about all states" then he said "it wouldn't be good if she had to use the men's room, because it probably wouldn't be safe" She was in the checkout line ahead of us and after she checked out the girl rolled her eyes at us my son said to her "that's not very nice" Like I said I think he already knows he is a pretty perceptive and compassionate young man.

I guess I really lucky that way.

By the way this was Halloween weekend so there was much going on with seeing me dressed as a girl. Doing my nails, makeup etc. Wearing womens clothes that were obviously mine.

[Karren H]

I never plan to.... but I didn't plan to come out to my wife... if they find out so be it..... I'll deal with it then.... I have no overwhelming desire to tell everyone I know.....

[Lorileah]

I never plan to.... but I didn't plan to come out to my wife... if they find out so be it..... I'll deal with it then.... I have no overwhelming desire to tell everyone I know.....

I get it Karren, you don't need defense because you can always rely on the goalie

[DaphneGrey]

Daphne, thanks for the great thread! This very topic has been on my mind for a long while. I would like to ask a few more detailed questions if I may. (If this post is a thread-jack I'm happy to move it as that is not my intent)

I am interested in the "how" of disclosure as much as the "should," as I think they are tightly coupled. Before we (my SO and I) get to the kids stage, we'd like to have a lot more of this sorted out

My thought was to do more of the slow leak 80/20 kind of approach whereby Dad mode would dominate, but there would be some fraction of femme behavior there as well. Even under this approach, it seems that there are bound to be questions and issues galore. Moreover I would suspect that there would be all kinds of opportunity for family/friends to be innocently and accidentally brought into the loop.

On the up side, this approach would allow for some exposure to transgenderdness, and thus provide the benefits openness and education. It would also largely provide the child(ren) with a reasonably gender-normal (hate to say it that way ... but I think it makes my point), upbringing. With this approach in mind, my questions to those who have disclosed are:

How did you start disclosing? By act (i.e. non-traditional gender roles, maybe partially femme presentation, etc.) or by conversation? How do you attenuate the "wierdness" factor? Most importantly, what steps did you take to protect your kids from disagreeable family, and from school bullies or even friends?

Thanks,

Mel

Hi Mel
As you know from my posts, I am not one hundred percent out to my kids. But I am somewhat out. My kids know I like girly things I present androgynous most of the time. My wife and I sew together talk about clothes and this time a year she is always asking about make up and other things for gift Ideas. I never whisper or hide what I am talking about. For me I use discretion but at the same time do not hide. I hang my clothes in the closet, I have my own vanity with perfume and makeup brushes visible. It is really just a non issue. I am sure my oldest one knows but he hasn't asked and I have no urge to tell.

So I don't hide and I am not in anyones face about it. If I am asked I always answer honestly. That way when these things come up it just seems natural.

I hope this answers some of your questions

[Lorileah]

So I don't hide and I am not in anyones face about it. If I am asked I always answer honestly. That way when these things come up it just seems natural.

I think that is one of the best ways to handle it. You don't have to be militant about it. You don't have to force yourself onto any one. But you should not make up stuff to pretend you are not either. Like I said kids are resilient and a lot smarter than we give them credit for. They have seen crossdressers on the street or in media. If they ask a question give an honest answer. That goes for most everything. Sex, religion, sports coaches language. If you start making things up or avoiding the question it will come back on you later. In my profession I always think "ATAOQICA". No that is not he name of a Native American tribe, it stands for "Are there any other questions I can answer?"

[WandaRae2009]

My wife & I met with a counselor a couple of years ago when I came out to her. They were in their teens 16 & 19 and she suggested that we not tell them. I think they could handle it, but my wife is against it so I will keep things concealed from them. They have commented a couple of times on my shaved arms & Legs. My wife says she didn't like the hair, so she wanted me to shave. At least in that aspect she give me some support.

[Astrid Star]

...Then he asked me to make the same bag for one of his friends saying "Liz would love this"

I would consider that quite a compliment. That is one of the cutest things that I have ever heard. Who knows, you might help this boy get a girlfriend if he keeps giving them lovely handbags.

Astrid

[Lorileah]

My wife & I met with a counselor a couple of years ago when I came out to her. They were in their teens 16 & 19 and she suggested that we not tell them. I think they could handle it, but my wife is against it so I will keep things concealed from them. They have commented a couple of times on my shaved arms & Legs. My wife says she didn't like the hair, so she wanted me to shave. At least in that aspect she give me some support.

So what reason did the counselor give for not telling adult children?

[suchacutie]

1) If there is a spouse involved, the first question involves a joint decision. Your spouse would have to be enthusiastic about telling children, not just supportive.

2) Coming out to children likely means coming out, period. If this is the way you wish to move in your life, then children should come first before others.

3) I do think the basic principle revolves around one's relationship with one's feminine self. For me, Tina is a separate entity, and is definitely not "daddy". She's also not my wife's husband! In this situation I would imagine that adult children would be in a better position to understand this where for young children the confusion would be immense.

4) I believe strongly that "being out" has nothing to do with educating others about being transgendered. I think I have erased misconceptions when I have encountered them, probably better because I was not seen as transgendered at that moment. I was simply an educated person sharing my education.

just my

[Melissa_Z]

Hi Mel
As you know from my posts, I am not one hundred percent out to my kids. But I am somewhat out ... It is really just a non issue. I am sure my oldest one knows but he hasn't asked and I have no urge to tell.

So I don't hide and I am not in anyones face about it. If I am asked I always answer honestly. That way when these things come up it just seems natural.

I hope this answers some of your questions

Daphne,

It does thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to give me your thoughts. I think what you've described is about what I was thinking with my 80/20 type approach. I've read your response together with Lorileah's and responded below. I'd love your thoughts.

I think that is one of the best ways to handle it. You don't have to be militant about it. You don't have to force yourself onto any one. But you should not make up stuff to pretend you are not either. Like I said kids are resilient and a lot smarter than we give them credit for. They have seen crossdressers on the street or in media. If they ask a question give an honest answer. That goes for most everything. Sex, religion, sports coaches language. If you start making things up or avoiding the question it will come back on you later. In my profession I always think "ATAOQICA". No that is not he name of a Native American tribe, it stands for "Are there any other questions I can answer?"

Lorileah,

This is the other part of what I was getting at. It seems to me that there may be a point when more probative questions come. As you say, making up lies is no good. So the next step seems to be pretty much disclosure. Or at the very least, answering whatever question gets asked. Then what?

This is what really drives my questions. My plan is to keep my kids in the loop similar to the extent that Daphne keeps hers in. I too have no real urge to tell. My plan also keeps friends and family at arms length (or in the dark) on this particular issue. My worries come from the possibilities of further disclosure (i.e. to friends/family/the child's schoolmates) once I've answered my 'lil one honestly and openly. Does that make sense?

The tension between honesty and protecting the child from the world is a toughy. Argh.

Mel

[Melissa_Z]

1)
...

3) I do think the basic principle revolves around one's relationship with one's feminine self. For me, Tina is a separate entity, and is definitely not "daddy". She's also not my wife's husband! In this situation I would imagine that adult children would be in a better position to understand this where for young children the confusion would be immense.

...

just my

Tina,

I think you make good points. Especially this one. You pretty much have to know what your gender identity is all about so that you can balance how you approach to explaining it, if at all, to others. Hmmm ... I've got some work to do...

Mel.

[CherylFlint]

After much thought (I also have a child) I have decided NO.

[WandaRae2009]

So what reason did the counselor give for not telling adult children?

She really give one other than teens may have a difficult time accepting. She may have been also supporting my wife's position of not telling them.

[Lorileah]

She really give one other than teens may have a difficult time accepting. She may have been also supporting my wife's position of not telling them.

Re-read the counselor's meaning here. She had a hard time accepting what you wear and she wasn't unbiased. Shouldn't she have allowed the teens the opportunity to make that decision on their own?

That is why I don't think counseling is the answer in most aspects. They are not there to take sides, they are not getting paid to decide what someone should think and in couple's counseling they aren't there as advocates for one person over the other. Heck if I wanted a biased opinion I would just pay my MIL

Ok had to answer another post higher up (see what happens when you just click the little >?)

Melissa. What are you protecting your children from if I may ask? When you tell them " I like to wear a skirt sometimes" do they suddenly become ill? Ok three year old, cannot understand the concept because of age. Also doesn't KNOW that you consider it wrong because...they aren't taught that unless you taught them. 6 year old. Now in school. It comes up on the playground. Two days of being teased and now they are out teasing the little kid who brought a paper sack lunch. 13 peer pressure. You taught the kids that the are intelligent, responsible people who have their own minds and something we like to call free will. They are going to rebel anyway so either they drop the jerk "friends" who cannot accept it or they just ignore them and soon...it too disappears. They make friends who are shorter, slower physically, smarter, nerdier, whatever. On their way to being healthy considerate human beings. Now they are 18. You tell them. They are too damn busy getting a job or in college. They don't go into the interview and say "My dad dresses different".

Why do we keep allowing ourselves to be put in a box. A box that is labeled "broken, return for repair". Protect your children from things that WILL harm them. Look both ways before crossing the street, don't drink and drive, don't smoke, war is bad for children and other living things (that seems a hard one for everyone to learn). Wearing a skirt isn't bad. It does not make you a bad person. We have to express that. As long as in our minds we keep reinforcing this social stereotype, it will be true. Once again you don't have to walk out on your front lawn and announce it to the world, but by sneaking and hiding and maybe even if one may guess laughing at CD's when you see them with your children is not the way to go.

[Melissa_Z]

Melissa. What are you protecting your children from if I may ask?

Lorileah, Thanks for the response. Seriously This is the kind of feedback and discussion that I appreciate. You raise a good point by asking that question. I guess I thought of protecting the child from prejudice implicated by me. Your point is well taken that a child raised to stand on their own feet, and be a critical thinker may weather such storms just fine.

Why do we keep allowing ourselves to be put in a box. A box that is labeled "broken, return for repair". ... Wearing a skirt isn't bad. It does not make you a bad person. We have to express that. As long as in our minds we keep reinforcing this social stereotype, it will be true.

I agree. We (the royal closeted we) are our own worst enemies in so far as allowing ourselves to be boxed in as you've described. It is self perpetuating.

Once again you don't have to walk out on your front lawn and announce it to the world, but by sneaking and hiding and

I think this is generally my point. I have no plans for a front lawn disclosure. I have no plans to sneak and hide from my (yet to be) children. I simply worry about inadvertent disclosure to friends and family and the subsequent issues therein. I think that means I must have a VERY solid handle on my gender issues and be prepared to deal with the fallout if and when such a disclosure happens. It could very possibly be a painful situation. Burying my head in the sand will not solve that problem though.

Does that make sense? I'm sure I'm muddling things here and there.

maybe even if one may guess laughing at CD's when you see them with your children is not the way to go.

Not a good guess at all.


Thanks for the feedback. The dialog is very helpful.

[DaphneGrey]

I agree. We (the royal closeted we) are our own worst enemies in so far as allowing ourselves to be boxed in as you've described. It is self perpetuating.



I think this is generally my point. I have no plans for a front lawn disclosure. I have no plans to sneak and hide from my (yet to be) children. I simply worry about inadvertent disclosure to friends and family and the subsequent issues therein. I think that means I must have a VERY solid handle on my gender issues and be prepared to deal with the fallout if and when such a disclosure happens. It could very possibly be a painful situation. Burying my head in the sand will not solve that problem though.

Does that make sense? I'm sure I'm muddling things here and there.

I think you are on the right track with this approach. It works out well for me. Yesterday I was sitting at my in laws dining table weaving a scarf out of pink and beige silk. My sister in law said I should use it as a handle for one of the bags I make. My son said it would make a great belt. My mother in law said she loved the colors. And my father in law thought my makeshift loom was really cool. My point is I was sitting with my extended family making a feminine garment for myself, not hiding and not being in anyones face at the same time. The truth is people don't notice or care. I am not "out" to these folks but I don't hide either. It is just a non issue. Also this weekend I was sewing a long ladies winter coat. My wife and I were working on it in the living room. I tried it on took it off several times etc. My kids were running back and forth and my oldest had a friend spend the night. Again there were no problems. The only comment was my sons friend saying thats cool I wish I knew how to sew.

I as well worry sometimes about residual fallout. But lets face it if we are gender variant in any way than eventually we will be in a situation where we have some splain'n to do.
Like you said you just need to be really secure in where you are personally so you can answer those questions when they come up.

As for protecting our kids I say yes. Children have enough to worry about. I don't deny who or what I am to anybody. At the same time I am not a crusader and I don't want to put my children in a situation where they need to defend me. It is my job to defend them.
I teach them to be tolerant and respectful and to treat everyone with respect. Eventually they will just figure it out if they haven't already. But I doubt I will be interacting with them as Daphne anytime soon.

The other issue concerning my kids and my wife for that matter is having them decipher the two people who live in my head. I simply cant relate to them the same way as Daphne. And asking them to see, know and understand me as one person with two genders is just too much to ask in my opinion.

I hope this answers some more of your questions.

[Lorileah]

Not a good guess at all.

So you don't watch "To Wong Foo" or any Tyler Perry shows or "White Girls" or any of the myriad of movies (even though I do love Some like it hot that make a mockery of crossdressing) that have been made in the last say 50 years? That was not really the point and you got the point correct, the people who see someone dressed different on the street who when friends laugh and point go along so they don't "out" themselves instead of defending the person or educating the "friends".

I like the new label "the royal closeted we". It is at least a very descriptive label.

It is my opinion that kids are a lot more resilient than we give them credit for. It is also my opinion that we have made a lot more problems by morphing everything into a mental problem. I read somewhere that if you want something to be believed you just have to have it repeated 3 times (overly simplistic for sure) and that you can be the one repeating it those 3 times. So far it isn't working on my end because I have said more than 3 times on these boards "we are not the problem here". And yet half the people on the boards consider themselves either ill or a burden on society. With a few exceptions, society has learned that many things are not the problem that we saw 50 plus years ago. Race, creed, color, beliefs, physical differences are no longer the pariah they were even when I was growing up. Kids don't shun other kids over perceived differences. Because (again with a few exceptions, especially in pockets of the US) we have accepted the fact that we are not all alike. "You have to carefully taught". And unfortunately that was has been reinforced in our culture even more in the last few years. We (and this time it isn't just the closeted we here) have to stand up. We have to show we are not some sort of ilk. I for one have never committed a crime while wearing a skirt. My assumption would be that 99.9% of the people here are in that same boat. (Speeding tickets don't count...but even those I have never gotten while dressed). I have to cop to making people laugh while dressed. But I am very rarely serious in male clothing. I like to have fun and joke. However I don't do the over the top draggy stuff. It is hard to compare us to any group who has seen discrimination. We can and do disappear easily in the fog of daily life. But consider this, not one of the formally unacceptable social groups changed anything by hiding. Most these groups are still fighting to be equal but they are better now than 50 years ago, with the exception of the TG community. We have hung on the coat tails of others being pulled into the world then like little mice we hide in the corner when a light is shined on us. Somewhere I remember something about help those who help themselves. Time to help yourself.

Thanks ladies for bringing this debate to light

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

The other issue concerning my kids and my wife for that matter is having them decipher the two people who live in my head. I simply cant relate to them the same way as Daphne. And asking them to see, know and understand me as one person with two genders is just too much to ask in my opinion.

My dressing style is very different from yours (and most), so this may not be the case with you, but I have heard other people who are more "traditional" crossdressers mimic this sentiment. I've found that the more I opened up about myself and the more I let others into my world, the more "out" I became, the less I started to feel like there were two people in my head. Even before I stopped using the name Alyssa to describe my girl side, I had stopped feeling like I was a different person at all when dressed as a girl.

It sounds to me from what you've said that while you may not have had an official "coming out" you're sort of "out" already. Maybe rather than have any sort of sit down discussion where it makes the crossdressing seem like a big deal that needs to be discussed, just keep doing what you're doing and slowly expose parts of your feminine side as it feels natural to do so instead of forcing the issue.

And, as that happens, maybe you'll start to feel less like you and Daphne aren't the same person.

[DaphneGrey]

My dressing style is very different from yours (and most), so this may not be the case with you, but I have heard other people who are more "traditional" crossdressers mimic this sentiment. I've found that the more I opened up about myself and the more I let others into my world, the more "out" I became, the less I started to feel like there were two people in my head. Even before I stopped using the name Alyssa to describe my girl side, I had stopped feeling like I was a different person at all when dressed as a girl.

It sounds to me from what you've said that while you may not have had an official "coming out" you're sort of "out" already. Maybe rather than have any sort of sit down discussion where it makes the crossdressing seem like a big deal that needs to be discussed, just keep doing what you're doing and slowly expose parts of your feminine side as it feels natural to do so instead of forcing the issue.

And, as that happens, maybe you'll start to feel less like you and Daphne aren't the same person.

This is great advice thanks. I am just going to keep being me as it were. I am not sure I actually feel like two people or not I just don't want to confuse anyone if I can help it. The truth is Daphnie is the dominant part of my personality. I have just learned to be her without looking like her. I guess it is a self preservation thing. Not sure if this makes sense or not. I hope I am articulating well.