CD's and Homophobia

[msginaadoll]

First off I have to express my biases. I believe that myself as well as crossdressers as a whole have benefited from association with gays and lesbians. The first place I ever went dressed was a bar which is considered gay/lesbian oriented. Why? Because I heard that I would find acceptance there. Latter I begin attending support groups that were originally started and ran from a center established to help and assist gays/lesbians and latter transgender. I came to realize what makeup could do by observing drag queens perform. I also realize that many people will view me as gay because of the fact that I crossdress and I accept that and have no problem with that. Where it gets interesting to me is when people feel they need to assert immediately that they are not gay or are worried others will think they are gay. I can see where that may be important if you are married and coming out to your wife or a girlfriend but otherwise, what is the issue? Yes you may get hit on if you are at a gay/lesgian oriented bar, well duuuuh! (Saying that tongue in cheek) You are in some ways setting yourself up for that. I mean if you are sitting in Mcdonalds most people wont assume you are a vegetarian. I know about assumptions. Im just wondering how honest people are about there fears/ concerns even prejudices. It truly is a hard thing to look inward and see the dark places- heck Ive been there. hope this doesnt turn ugly but wanted to bring up some issues that I feel our important to our community.

[Toni_Lynn]

Gina

You make some good points. My first CD group was also hosted a local gay and lesbian community center. I also agree that one need not immediately state something to the effect that 'I'm a crossdresser but I'm not'. The qualifier is totally un-needed. However, when asked after that, whether you are gay or straight, I see no problem or implication of homophobia in answering the question honestly.

Just as said in another thread, just because I don't feel I need to march in gay pride parades that is no indication of homophobia. I wear a kilt in drab mode but don't feel it necessary to march on St Patty's day cause I'm not Irish!

Personally, I felt uncomfortable when the group I was in started having social at gay bars because a) I don't like bars in general, and b) I didn't feel comfortable there. I don't believe that this implies homophobia. I would have felt as uncomfortable in a non-gay bar where there was as much open sexual activity -- hmm I guess like a singles bar.

Unfortunately, though the 'phobia' angle goes both ways. When I was involved in PFLAG, there was a strong resentment among certain people there against us. It was as if we were invading their territory, even though we came with no predjudice. I will say in all fairness, though, there was also a prejudice to a greater degree against many of the bi people in attendance from all corners

Phobic feelings come from all quarters.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[Kate Simmons]

Toni-Lynn is right. We make out much better if we forget the labels and think of each person as a person and not a "thing". Of course everyone has issues and we have to respect that but respecting them for who they are is the most important thing. Works for me.

[Hope]

I think that for a lot of folks, admitting that they are TG is such a huge thing to admit, that they just don't have the motional resources to deal with anything else at the same time. Add to that the general assumption that any man who wants to wear a skirt MUST be gay, and you have a situation that leads people who out themselves for the first time to stridently demand that while they might like to wear panties, that they are NOT gay!

[Stephenie S]

I would be a wealthy woman if I had a dollar for every time someone on this forum has written, "I'm not gay, but . . . . . . . whatever". It's almost impossible to have grown up a guy in modern society and NOT have some inate homophobia. Understand this and try to let it go.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Karren H]

Well "I'm not gay". I'll send you a $! But as a prowd parent of a gay child... I got over any (and it was very little) homophobia I may have had years ago..

[Frédérique]

I also realize that many people will view me as gay because of the fact that I crossdress and I accept that and have no problem with that. Where it gets interesting to me is when people feel they need to assert immediately that they are not gay or are worried others will think they are gay. I can see where that may be important if you are married and coming out to your wife or a girlfriend but otherwise, what is the issue?

[SIZE="2"]Oh goody, something to write about! Immediately pointing out one is not gay, when pressed for an explanation, may be a reflex action that comes with ingrained circumstance. I hope I haven’t been guilty of that, but I’ve probably done it on occasion (certainly not lately). That said, I wish I was gay, but I would have a hard time explaining why – it has much more to do with heightened sensuality across the board than with sexuality, but I’m an artist first and foremost. If someone told me they were gay, vs. vehemently denying a hidden truth, I would immediately be at ease with the person, regardless of gender. All I can say is that I was not born homosexual. I often (nearly always) follow that with, “Pity,” depending on who I’m talking to. People think I’m gay, but I’m not – it’s amusing and revealing at the same time, and I get a chuckle out of this monochromatic virus (black and white-ness) that afflicts seemingly intelligent individuals.

Why worry about what other people think? You’ll never please everyone, and you’ll become miserable trying to, especially if you subjugate your own personality or desires to fit somebody’s predefined expectations. Personally, I keep my mouth shut, because I don’t like to see which people in the immediate vicinity are bigoted or close-minded towards anything outside the norm, according to which “norm” they’ve been told is correct. I do this curious thing called “thinking,” so I decry all attempts at normalcy and group ideals by simple avoidance – let me be me, and we’ll get along just fine. Gay? Sure, where do I sign up*?

*BTW, do not expect me to be an activist for any cause, because I am a solitary sensualist, not a politicist...[/SIZE]

[sheidelmeidel]

Certainly hetero CDs and some gays have much in common in terms of their presentation to the outside world, and in their ability to tolerate and understand gender benders in all their many varieties. But I dislike the term "homophobia". IMO it's a politically loaded term that is much overused, often inappropriately.

Other than that, Frédérique said something that also applies to me:

BTW, do not expect me to be an activist for any cause, because I am a solitary sensualist, not a politicist...

[Karen7cd]

what does sexual orientation have to do with makeup! If you swing to the right, left or don't swing at all you still need makeup help.
We need to drop labels, the only one we need is "Are you over 18". The rest does not matter.

[Misty is Kindafem]

I remember being mildly offended by the "I'm totally straight" crowd around here, but lately I'm beginning to understand that a married man may have a genuine need to proclaim himself a red blooded vagina lover.

His wife (excuse me, SO) may need that little extra display of manliness after watching her hubby swish around all day.

Which brings me to my point. Just because you're NOT gay, doesn't mean you're straight. My beautiful friend Niya is definitely not gay, but straight wouldn't be the first word I use to describe her. She's bent just like the rest of us.

Some girls are into men, some into women and some are into other trannies, but there is just NO way you can enjoy wearing a short dress and heels, and be "straight" at the same time. Straight men just don't want to behave like women.

Before anyone takes offense, I'm NOT saying you're gay or should be. I'm just saying that however you identify, you're hardly straight.

-Misty

[Violetgray]

I for one, don't think that gay people deserve all the discrimination and homophobia. But neither do I. It makes me uncomfortable (just a it) when people assume I'm gay just because I don't want to be subject to the same type of negativity they have to deal with. Now I don't go around saying "HEY EVERYBODY! I'M STRAIGHT! I HOG THE REMOTE, AND NOT ASK FOR DIRECTIONS!" But of someone asks, I'll tell them.

Think of it the other way, Imagine if a gay person was out somewhere and the fact that he's gay came up in conversation. You could probably understand their indignance if someone said, "Oh, so do you dress up in women's clothing then?"

[sheidelmeidel]

Some girls are into men, some into women and some are into other trannies, but there is just NO way you can enjoy wearing a short dress and heels, and be "straight" at the same time. Straight men just don't want to behave like women.Before anyone takes offense, I'm NOT saying you're gay or should be. I'm just saying that however you identify, you're hardly straight.
-Misty

I agree. I consider myself to be "as straight as possible for someone like me".

[Sara Jessica]

First off I have to express my biases. I believe that myself as well as crossdressers as a whole have benefited from association with gays and lesbians. The first place I ever went dressed was a bar which is considered gay/lesbian oriented. Why? Because I heard that I would find acceptance there. Latter I begin attending support groups that were originally started and ran from a center established to help and assist gays/lesbians and latter transgender. I came to realize what makeup could do by observing drag queens perform. I also realize that many people will view me as gay because of the fact that I crossdress and I accept that and have no problem with that. Where it gets interesting to me is when people feel they need to assert immediately that they are not gay or are worried others will think they are gay. I can see where that may be important if you are married and coming out to your wife or a girlfriend but otherwise, what is the issue? Yes you may get hit on if you are at a gay/lesgian oriented bar, well duuuuh! (Saying that tongue in cheek) You are in some ways setting yourself up for that. I mean if you are sitting in Mcdonalds most people wont assume you are a vegetarian. I know about assumptions. Im just wondering how honest people are about there fears/ concerns even prejudices. It truly is a hard thing to look inward and see the dark places- heck Ive been there. hope this doesnt turn ugly but wanted to bring up some issues that I feel our important to our community.

This is such a non-issue for me that I don't think I've ever chimed in on such a thread. However, you have stated the point so well Gina that I think your post should be required reading for anyone who is signing up for this site. Granted I know that's not all that realistic but still, it might put an end to the "I'm not gay but..." threads that turn up every week or so.

Remember folks, gender identity and sexual orientation are two different things. No matter how the outside world might perceive us, understanding this basic fact makes both self-acceptance and outreach to others much easier.

[Butterfly Bill]

Probably most of the neighborhood I live in has just classified me as gay, and I just let them go on thinking it. Those who talk with me have apparently made some kind of decision to tolerate, if not fully accept gay people, and it is really hard to explain to some people just what the trip is with hetero crossdressing. If I can be a good example, I can benefit the gay people as well.

[Fab Karen]

Actually, in a gay bar it's fairly unlikely we'll get hit on, unless there's a bi guy or girl around. Regardless, as long as someone is respectful & polite, what's the big deal? Oh, and btw, I'm not straight ( pansexual if you need to know )

"But as a proud parent of a gay child... I got over any (and it was very little) homophobia I may have had years ago.. "
Your child has a loving dad AND a loving extra mom.

[msginaadoll]

In some ways homophobia may have been the wrong term or too harsh of a term. But in some ways it may be a good one. Noone myself included likes to think that we may be racist, sexist, etc. We may refer to people making a racist comment but not want to label them further as a racist. I think our sexuality and how we view it as well as others is one that many of us have to deal with. When I was younger I started coming to grips with my crossdressing. In my young mind I would tell myself hey at least I'm not gay. Im not sure if I thought that was a terrible thing to be, or just a tougher thing to be. I remember being 12 years old or maybe younger and learning the worst thing you could be called was a queer, or gay, or worse yet a faggot. Those were considered words so inflammatory to somebody young. At the time it felt so important to declare yourself a man, in whatever form that meant. As I got older and looked for places to venture out I heard that gay/lesbian oriented clubs were safe places. That was a struggle at first because the worry what will people think of me, will I get hit on. Mostly the fear comes from the unknown as well as the prejudices that are drummed into a young and impressionable mind. But while i still struggle with my crossdressing the one thing that it has blessed me with is to come into contact with people who I may never have, as well as an understanding of what it is like to be considered a minority or in some cases a freak. It has also encouraged me to educate and inform as best as I can others- in no way am I an advocats as others are, but I try to do what I can.

[Nigella23]

I believe we are too willing to apply labels. Seriously, what is wrong with, people, is that not specific enough? I'm a person, everyone who posts here is a person, (excepting the intelligent cat which believes he's a lesbian crossdressing stockbroker.) In my short time on this forum I've been saddened by peoples acceptance and willingness to apply labels. There is no esoteric normalcy which we must all either accept or shun.
Just because I had sugar in my coffee yesterday doesn't mean I must today. There seems to be so many reasons people are here on this forum, but I see people looking for acceptance, reassurance and camaraderie in the main, lets not pigeonhole or apply labels ourselves, as so many outside of this forum would be quite willing to do.

[kellycan27]

Certainly hetero CDs and some gays have much in common in terms of their presentation to the outside world, and in their ability to tolerate and understand gender benders in all their many varieties. But I dislike the term "homophobia". IMO it's a politically loaded term that is much overused, often inappropriately.

Other than that, Frédérique said something that also applies to me:

She also finally said it..... "People think I am gay,but Iam not".

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

Some girls are into men, some into women and some are into other trannies, but there is just NO way you can enjoy wearing a short dress and heels, and be "straight" at the same time. Straight men just don't want to behave like women.

Before anyone takes offense, I'm NOT saying you're gay or should be. I'm just saying that however you identify, you're hardly straight.

Woah woah, I wouldn't use the term "offended" because I personally think all the sexuality terms are arbitrary social constructs. I don't need to call myself straight just because I'm attracted to women. I'll say I am to clear up confusion, but to me it's just a word.

Having said, that, who the heck are you to come on here and tell people what they are or aren't? Gender identity and sexuality are two different things, and to say "Straight men just don't want to behave like women" is frankly ludicrous. Since when are you the grand master of all things straight?

[Barbara Dugan]

I consider myself gay and and crossdresser and always found odd that this forum is not less I won't say homophobic I don't like that word but not as a gay friendly as It should be as is in the general public.
I just came to the conclusion that not everybody will accept you as you are just be happy being yourself and try to accept others for who they are

[DaphneGrey]

I never declare my sexuality (was shunned by support groups because of it) many people assume I am gay and that is just fine. If I am asked my canned statement is "are you interested" usually shuts people up. My theory is this. If somone has taken a little time to get to me, my sexual preferences will be obvious. As for anyone else, I couldn't care less!

I do believe there is homophobia among crossddessers I just do not understand why.

[trannie T]

I am not gay, however my boyfriend happens to be. Sex and gender are two seperate but related issues. Basically gender is who we are and sex is what we do.

[Presh GG]

Hmmm,
I want to jump in here, Hope you understand.

In the PNW, There is soooo little 'homophobia" as to be a total non issue. In our just former nieghborhood clearly half the homes were same sex couples.

Now, if I were to say " my husband is gay" most people would nod their heads and know some other couples in the same relationship. But if I said "my husband is a cross dresser" The blank stare would be anything but friendly.
Most people just haven't been around this kind of lifestyle to be comfortable in conversation with us.

Since the gay community has paved the way for acceptance, I too am surprized by anyone wanting to distance themselves from that kind of lifestyle. I for one want and need the same acceptance for our chosen path as has been won by the gay community.

Thank you for listening

Peace,
springtime GG

[sherri]

Personally, I felt uncomfortable when the group I was in started having social at gay bars ... I would have felt as uncomfortable in a non-gay bar where there was as much open sexual activity ...

You wouldn't happen to remember the addresses for those bars you went to, would you?

[sherri]

Certainly hetero CDs and some gays have much in common in terms of their presentation to the outside world, and in their ability to tolerate and understand gender benders in all their many varieties.

I am extremely grateful to the gay community and venues where I live for giving me places to go hang out, be myself and meet people, but IME, gays don't really understand CDers much better than the straight world does. But one beautiful difference is that even though they don't understand us, they accept us into their midst without judging us. Well, most of them, anyway.

Of course, when I first started going to gay bars (because they were safe, as in TG-tolerant), I didn't know a flipping thing about gay people either.