CD's and Homophobia

[Toni_Lynn]

...but IME, gays don't really understand CDers much better than the straight world does. But one beautiful difference is that even though they don't understand us, they accept us into their midst without judging us. Well, most of them, anyway.

I agree with what you are saying. Again I have to go back to my experiences at PFLAG. While initially welcome, we were eventually sent to our own little ghetto of TG only discussion groups, and made to feel un-welcome in the general population. However, one of my best friends there was a woman (who was also a co-worker at my place of employment) who welcomed me with open arms. Many of the parents welcomed me, as did many of the older gay men. The majority of the lack of acceptance seemed to come from the younger gay men who seemed more radical in their approach to life.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[lavistaa62]

I grew up in a gay household- my mom is a lesbian and most of the guys I grew up around were gay. None of my brothers or sisters have yet expressed any preference for same sex partners though none of our first marriages to opposite sex partners turned out very well (all divorced but now seemingly in a happy relationships).

From this background, I've never understood the dichotomy- for one it's not a black white situation in my eyes. It seems unacceptable for me to accept one orientation and reject another- it's just symptomatic of bias and xenophobia.

It should say something that many of us were introduced to one another (in reality) in a LGBT friendly establishment. It's noxious to me that society forces there to be places which must say they are LGBT friendly because there are so many places which are not.

Crossdressing is just another angle on the circle that is life. I haven't been sexually attracted to anyone of my sex and prefer to be around those of the opposite sex- odd this could be called hyper-hetrosexuality.

[CherylFlint]

Well, as a drab I like girls, but as a gurl (dressed) I like girls AND guys.

[Sarasometimes]

It was best said, gender is who we are and sexual preference is who we do. Not wanting to be thought of as gay is not my definition of a Homophobe. Phobe mean to fear. So a homophobe fears homosexuals. I do not fear homosexuals. I respect them for who they are and how they conduct themselves in society just the same way I respcct heterosexuals. If they point a a gun at me and are gay I am then a homophobe. If a heterosexual points a gun at me I am a heterophobe, I guess.
How can the thread starter use labels toward the "I'm not gay" posters and not be hypocritical.
When it comes to gays the only thing I will admit to is, jealousy that they are a bit better understood by a small portion of mainstream society than heterosexual crossdressers. In fact one post questioned my heterosexuality without ever meeting me?
Open season can start now!

[rocketscientist]

Most people have been taught by society that being gay or lesbian or bi is wrong. If some of my friends discovered my dressing, they would most certainly assume I'm gay. Except for the ones who know me best, I would be shunned by most of them. And really it's because they don't understand our need to dress and express our feminine sides. There will be some of them who might, but most won't.It is a complex issue that anyone who dresses must deal with in their own way on their own level. As far as LGBT bars go,I love them. I can go there anytime and not feel out of place or that i'm being judged. Just hang out and interact with other PEOPLE. After all, that's what we all are.PEOPLE. No matter your sexual prefence, everyone is just wants acceptance and to feel safe in their surroundings. Ours is an alternative lifestyle as well, and blending with them is a MUCH better option than going to Butch's Sports Bar en femme! . My advice to any of the girls reading this, if you haven't been out at all or worried about passing,these places are perfect for you to venture out in the public. If you do the best you can you will have the time of your life! Don't worry about any thing except your lipstick and mascara! Because you know what? Nobody there cares what or who you are. Just try to enjoy yourself.

[Blaire]

Not wanting to be thought of as gay is not my definition of a Homophobe. Phobe mean to fear. So a homophobe fears homosexuals. I do not fear homosexuals. I respect them for who they are and how they conduct themselves in society just the same way I respcct heterosexuals. If they point a a gun at me and are gay I am then a homophobe. If a heterosexual points a gun at me I am a heterophobe, I guess.

A phobia is an irrational fear. Being afraid because you're about to get your head blown off is hardly irrational.

[Kinky with Ink]

I consider myself gay and and crossdresser and always found odd that this forum is not less I won't say homophobic I don't like that word but not as a gay friendly as It should be as is in the general public.
I just came to the conclusion that not everybody will accept you as you are just be happy being yourself and try to accept others for who they are

Barbara honey, you aren't the only one out there. I've had boyfriends as well as girlfriends my whole life. I think alot of cd'ers have still yet to come to terms with their dressing and are scared of being considered gay. I think bi and gay guys get more exposure to the public and as a result tend to be more confident of who we are as far as our sexuality goes. I've been out about me being at the very least bisexual but like most of us hide the other side. The longer and longer i'm out though regardless about what, the less I care about what other people think. I just want to enjoy my life and be who I want to be.

[Annie D]

The more that I am out, the cuter the guys get (and alcohol is not involved). I have just become more open to getting to know everyone better, no matter what their sexual orientation might be, and becoming friends. From friendship, a closer relationship, from a closer relationship..............you get the idea.

Anything is possible.

[sandra-leigh]

Im not sure if I thought that was a terrible thing to be, or just a tougher thing to be. I remember being 12 years old or maybe younger and learning the worst thing you could be called was a queer, or gay, or worse yet a faggot. Those were considered words so inflammatory to somebody young. At the time it felt so important to declare yourself a man, in whatever form that meant.

I don't remember now whether it was grade 10 or grade 11, but for one term one of those two years (30+ years ago), my "home room" was my Industrial Arts class -- drafting and "shop". And I remember one day going to the office in tears after the (all-male) class unanimously voted (over my objection) to nominate me for the "Homecoming Queen" competition, with the teacher's full approval. It was a complete social ostracization from the class (and teacher), a declaration that I wasn't a "Man" as far as they were concerned. Cross-dressing wasn't in our thoughts in those days (not even in mine), but homophobia and the "limp wrist" image was not uncommon then, and the class was symbolically exiling me to the "men- who- are- like- women" -- that is, to the "fags", the "queers"... the homosexuals. They didn't actually care what my sexuality was: to them, in those times, a man who did not act like a Man was a "fag" and to be tossed out of their society into that inferior society, the females. (Yes, definitely some misogyny in that all-male class in those days, and the teacher was one of the leaders in that respect.)
{Subnote: I was not taking Shop to try to project an image as male, as a "disguise", to blend in. My father had a small shop in our basement, and I spent numerous hours with him there before he died young; I was taking Shop because I loved those times, loved using the tools, even if I was not very good with it. My shop marks pulled my average down considerably, but keeping alive my connection with my dead father was more important than my marks.}


The number of times I have been called "fag" in my life... definitely by grade 5 {one tormentor in particular; I did decode bakc then that his name calling was really about his inner and family life rather than being about me, but it still hurt; a couple of months ago one of his family members confirmed his problems of the time to me.} But definitely not just by people who knew me... even into my early 40's, random people walking by on the street or driving by would yell homosexual slurs at me.

Oddly, those random homosexual slurs stopped when I started cross-dressing. My GP's theory is that all those years I had "a victim personality"; the converse of that is cross-dressing has given me more self-confidence, and thus even though I may be dressed rather unusually, I no longer project as a "victim".

Or it might have to do with the fact that when I first realized I was a cross-dresser about 5 years ago, I'd been insulted by random people for so long that I consciously thought something to the effect of "People have been insulting me for no reason for so many years, people with no idea of who I am or what I'm thinking or feeling; they are ignorant knobs whose opinion doesn't matter, and I don't care what they think; dressing in public can't be any worse than what I already get routinely... so what if I'm "giving them a reason", they still won't understand or care to understand, so if they don't like it, then F__ Them!". Another way of looking at this is that I turned the situation around and took control and refused to be a victim any longer; so many people were going to think poorly of me no matter what I did, so I might as well do what I like.


The topic is homophobia, I know, and it may seem that I am not addressing the original topic... my narrative can be a bit elliptical at times.

I didn't know what homosexuality was when I was young, other than the most superficial. I don't remember ever being personally repulsed by it, nor attracted to it... but I admit to the possibility of selective memory. The peer social message of the time (the 70's, suburban Canada) was that homosexuality was Bad, perverted, corrupting, but I could see through the "They want to brainwash our children!!!" claims by the time I was 12 (not that that gave me any insight into what homosexuality really was.)

Perhaps I did feel hurt that people thought I was gay; I won't lay claim to having always been free of homophobia, as what I remember is the hurt, not my reasons. On the other hand, the slurs started young enough, and were from people who really had no reason to know anything about my sexuality, that a big message that came through to me is "These people don't care about the truth; they are just trying to hurt me"... and why people, particularly strangers, would want to deliberately hurt me was something beyond my understanding. They wanted to hurt me; I felt hurt; homosexuality was the "delivery vehicle", not the warhead.

Thus, to me, for people to stop calling me gay wasn't about internalized homophobia; rather it was about society ceasing to actively reject me.

Now that I'm a visible cross-dresser, one who is often "read", the degree of acceptance of me (as a person) that I have found in the city has been amazing.. more by far than I ever had before I started cross-dressing. People who ignored me or didn't pay attention to me before, now know me and encourage me, and worry about me (to greater or lesser extents.)

And at the same time, the main gay bar in town, the place where our social club holds its meetings, has gone from being "I'd like to go there some day... I don't even know why, as I don't know what I'd do as a straight person in a gay bar, especially since I don't drink or dance... but I don't know how to interact with groups of gay people, those people are strangers" to being a place where I nearly got tears in my eyes earlier this year when the manager made it clear that I was considered a "friend of the bar", welcome any time, no matter how I was dressed, that as far as the management and staff were concerned, I belong in their community.


Above I referred to myself as a "straight person". I should clarify that: it doesn't take much at all for me to consider a woman "attractive" and feeling like I'd like to know her better and perhaps develop a relationship with -- though there are a couple of things (e.g., smoking) that cut the feeling pretty thoroughly. I was recently reading an article about "brain gender" in which it said that women need to feel positive about someone in order for to be sexually interested in them, and at least to some degree I fit that description: a simple nice appearance or a smile can be enough to have me feeling positive about a woman, but if something negative comes up, then that woman stops being sexually attractive to me (though it might not stop me from thinking of her as good-looking.)

Men... twice in my life that I can remember, I have had a "crush" on a male -- and I knew it as a "crush", not as something that would ever go anywhere, nor as something that the other person should even have reason to know about... and I probably would have been confused and frightened if they had shown an interest in me. And about two weeks ago, I looked over at a guy and thought to myself, "He's good-looking", in the "want to take more looks at him" sort of way... that very rarely happens to me. I don't remember ever being "turned on" by a male, but I am perhaps just not remembering. At the same time, though, I am aware that in the right time / place / mood / circumstances, I might be willing to experiment a bit, and the possibility that I might like it doesn't frighten me... but not even a single person comes to mind as potential candidates to experiment with.

Thus, I would classify myself as "potentially bi"; if someone were to call that "bi curious", I might say "Eh, I don't think of it as being even that strong, but the term is perhaps semantically correct." It would be pretty silly indeed for someone to try to put me down by saying, "Hey, you aren't 100% straight, you are only 98.6% straight!". Duh, like who cares?

[Rianna Humble]

It's almost impossible to have grown up a guy in modern society and NOT have some inate homophobia. Understand this and try to let it go.

I know that for my parents' generation, whether someone was homosexual was always a big thing.

For me, when thinking about a "gay person" it is the second word that is the most important.

I guess its like my attitude to racism - just because my skin is a pale pinky white doesn't make me less of a person.

What colour a person is has no more bearing on whether they are a good person than what they have between their legs or who they like to have a relationship with.

For me, all those considerations are non-starters.

[Toni_Lynn]

I don't know if this will shed any light on why qualifying one's self as not being gay as a CDer or not is not homopbic. Its similar but not the same.

Okay -- When I tell someone that I am a Christian, they may assume that I am a member of a protestant denomination. If pressed they may asked what church I go to. At that point I identify myself as Roman Catholic. Just because I state that I am not protestant, that I am Roman Catholic cannot be seen as any indication of bigotry toward non-Catholic Christians.

I don't know if this clears things up or not, but thought I'd try.

Huggles

Toni-Lynn

[msginaadoll]

First of all Im sorry if I am seen as being hypocritical in this post. But guess what I am one. I am also prejudice and I struggle with all the garbage that has filled in my head. I regret things Ive said that have hurt others, and I regret things Ive thought. And you know what I hope there are others who can admit that they have not been perfect, that they have had irrational fears. I can not say I am no longer prejudice because I am still human, and as long as I am alive I hope I continue to be non-perfect. In the end it is the struggle that counts. The struggle to understand people the struggle to have emapthy. The willingness to step outside my own comfort zone.

[sandra-leigh]

It's almost impossible to have grown up a guy in modern society and NOT have some inate homophobia.

And in the time and place I grew up, some inate racism and xenophobia and distrust of those who were not vaguely Judeo-Christian. The neighbourhood I grew up in was almost completely WASP or WAS-RC (Roman Catholic): we just didn't have the diversity experience to know how to treat anyone else.

In high school, my sister went out a bit with a black Jamacian fellow; he seemed a pleasant fellow, but truth to tell, I avoided him a bit, because I didn't know how to relate to him. What did I know about growing up black, about the feelings of the civil rights struggles of that were then still going on? (e.g., about a year earlier, while visiting a relative, we had been caught on the edge of a busing riot in Boston). And avoidance without conscious ill-will, because the other person is different and one doesn't know how to deal with that, is still racism and xenophobia; I knew even then that my avoidance was wrong, but the times and the place hadn't given me any guidance on dealing with the Other.

In that time and place, homophobia was more obvious than racism or xenophobia. It seems to me that a lot of the people I knew then and there eventually outgrew caring about the sexual orientation of people we dealt with -- at least as long as we aren't propositioned or our own sexuality otherwise questioned. We may perhaps largely have overcome our overt homophobia (at least in the larger Canadian cities), but our inner homophobia is, as Stephanie alludes to, much harder to root out. And that in turn reminds me of the saying that is sometimes posted to this forum: "Most women don't mind cross-dressing -- except when it comes to their own husband."


(Sadly, our xenophobia is being encouraged and egged on by our pundits and political and religious leaders. Those who are different from you are not really the warm people you've known all of your life: they are Al-Queda "sleeper-cells"!! Quick, go spy on them, it's your patriotic duty!!)

[sherib]

I am not gay. When I'm dressed, I still love women. If I was GG, I would be a lesbian. Plus, while dressed I try to act female, but I hate to see those redicules gay acting men they show on television.

[Ruth]

I think the original post was about homophobia amongst members of this forum rather than in the population at large, and the evidence was the large amount of denial of gayness that seems to go on.
However, Violet made the very relevant point that, if you look at it the other way, a gay man will not be too pleased if you assume he's a crossdresser. And it's the opposite assumption by those outside the community that leads to this attitude. It's not homophobia, it's just wanting to be recognised for who we are, and not confused with another group.
It's not that we are constitutionally anti-gay: we're simply, for the most part, not gay.

[Granny Gray]

Why worry about what other people think? You’ll never please everyone, and you’ll become miserable trying to, especially if you subjugate your own personality or desires to fit somebody’s predefined expectations. Personally, I keep my mouth shut, because I don’t like to see which people in the immediate vicinity are bigoted or close-minded towards anything outside the norm, according to which “norm” they’ve been told is correct. I do this curious thing called “thinking,” so I decry all attempts at normalcy and group ideals by simple avoidance – let me be me, and we’ll get along just fine. Gay?

*BTW, do not expect me to be an activist for any cause, because I am a solitary sensualist, not a politicist...[/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

F: You NAILED IT 100%. I've not seen it said better...EVER.

Granny.

[Jodi M]

Barbara M ,I couldn't have said it better. You are spot on!

[Megan Legz]

The thing with labels is that they are for others to categorize you, not to understand you. I think it's safe to say though the many gays don't know why they're gay and many crossdresser's don't know why they crossdress. By 'know' I mean 'understand'. If we don't, it must be even harder for non-crossdressers to. Homophobia is just the same as crossdresserphobia:

[Sarasometimes]

I think the original post was about homophobia amongst members of this forum rather than in the population at large, and the evidence was the large amount of denial of gayness that seems to go on.
However, Violet made the very relevant point that, if you look at it the other way, a gay man will not be too pleased if you assume he's a crossdresser. And it's the opposite assumption by those outside the community that leads to this attitude. It's not homophobia, it's just wanting to be recognised for who we are, and not confused with another group.
It's not that we are constitutionally anti-gay: we're simply, for the most part, not gay.

Boy I wish I put it that way! Ditto!!

[heidi99]

What an interesting, thought-provoking thread! I fear my post may be a little lengthy, but I feel moved to provide my 2 cents.

I've had a couple of friends from this board who have invited me a few times to a glbt bar close by to where they live. I haven't taken them up on their offer and really haven't carefully considered why. Perhaps by writing this I'll get over my inner hang-ups and go have some fun with them.

I think one aspect of why I dress is to feel attractive. I am attracted to women, and have really never felt I was attractive as a guy. So, part of what I do is to make me feel good about how I look. A bit narcissistic to be sure, but oh well.

I grew up in a town where there was that "one" bar with the reputation. When I was growing up, there was danger in being different. I think perhaps my reluctance is partly from being aware of that danger while I was growing up.

I feel truly blessed to be living in a time (and for that matter, a society) when things are changing so quickly. I have gay friends, and that is very cool because it personalizes the issue. I'm pretty conservative in my beliefs, but I get real peaved that we waste so much time trying to prevent other people from being happy in this world. Surely there are bigger issues that need to be solved! (OK, off the soapbox now.)

I think I am a little afraid of being "hit on." It's kind of funny. Isn't that the end goal of feeling attractive? I'll have to work on beating down my inhibitions, and as has been written here, if it happens, to be prepared to be appreciative, but gracious in my response.

Hey, I'm a work in progress (as are we all.) I wish everyone peace!

[Stephanie Stephens]

First of all Im sorry if I am seen as being hypocritical in this post. But guess what I am one. I am also prejudice and I struggle with all the garbage that has filled in my head. I regret things Ive said that have hurt others, and I regret things Ive thought. And you know what I hope there are others who can admit that they have not been perfect, that they have had irrational fears. I can not say I am no longer prejudice because I am still human, and as long as I am alive I hope I continue to be non-perfect. In the end it is the struggle that counts. The struggle to understand people the struggle to have emapthy. The willingness to step outside my own comfort zone.

Well said. I think you are on the road.

Say. Have you ever noticed that you cannot find a guy who doesn't think that two girls getting it on is hot?

[sandra-leigh]

I think I am a little afraid of being "hit on." It's kind of funny. Isn't that the end goal of feeling attractive? I'll have to work on beating down my inhibitions, and as has been written here, if it happens, to be prepared to be appreciative, but gracious in my response.

Places differ considerably, I understand, but the impression I get from reading other people's stories is that except for "tranny-bars" in some of the largest cities (e.g., Toronto, LA), the odds are you are less likely to be "hit on" in a GLBT bar (spontaneously complemented, perhaps, but not so much "hit on") than in a "straight" bar by a male who has "read" you.

The two times I have been distinctly "hit on" were by men in a distinctly hetro-oriented adult establishment; one of them knew for sure I was male, the other was drunk enough not to be able to decide but didn't care. Some of my friends and acquaintances who get out to clubs and other events much more often than I report that the great majority of the times that they are "hit on", it is by males who profess to be straight and who know that they are talking to a cross-dresser... men who will continue to profess to be "completely straight" even as they are asking for an encounter.

The closest I have come to being "hit on" in a GLBT bar was one fellow who quarter-heartedly flirted slightly with me, more or less as "something to do to pass the time", and obviously not interested in me.

Though a few weeks ago, while I was sitting taking a break from (volunteer) coat-check, and was watching a lingerie fashion show (3 of the 6 models were cross-dressers; the show was being run by friends of our social club), a fairly drunk guy who had merely come in to use the VLTs, came over and loomed above me without saying a word... so I looked up at him in the eye and said "Hello!" in my normal voice -- and he took off like a shot, calling back as he departed, "Sh_t man, you're a dude! Well, you sure had me fooled!". (About half an hour later, management politely escorted him to the door, as he was falling asleep at the tables.) Note that the fellow wasn't there because it was a GLBT bar: he was there because it was one of the few places around that he could play the VLT's on a Sunday night. I suppose in his own clumsy drunken way he was trying to hit on me, but you can see how trivial it was for me to diffuse the situation.


The trickiest situation I have encountered was in a hetro adult bar, and that involved a woman who read me as a cross-dresser (it is uncommon indeed when someone does not "read" me very quickly). And the problem wasn't that she was upset about it: on the contrary, the problem was that she went completely enthusiastic about it, squealing with excitement, giving me her phone number, and wanting to practically take over, to dress me up and do my make-up and take me out to clubs and other places, including wanting to take me to her church the very next day. She was off into a complete barbie-doll fantasy land, not even asking me if I would be interested in doing something with her. Fortunately, she took a bathroom break; I briefly explained my situation to her room-mate (a very nice and compassionate woman I'd been talking to earlier), and made my escape.

[Lorileah]

I remember the recruitment ceremony. How all those gays surrounded me and kept asking me "Have you found gayness? You know gay is the path to nirvana." I was so tempted that I took them up on the trial weekend. Yes it was all they said it would be but it wasn't what I wanted. I was afraid, afraid that somewhere in my mind there was a little voice (with a lisp and flamboyant hand gestures) who kept telling me "You like girls things don't you? You are not a girl so you MUST be gay." So now O go to the secret meeting places. Places with the names like the Compound or the Carousel or the Buckskin.

OK come on. I am not afraid I'll be recruited. They haven't even offered me a toaster for joining. But I am comfortable going to these places. Maybe because we have a camaraderie and we know that somewhere deep inside we are just people too. Maybe because happy hour is cheap. However in many cases I am more accepted in male clothes than female. I think there are two good reasons for this. One, they like guys and two, they don't like what we bring to the table as far as baggage. Even if they don't think of us in that manner they still see us as freaks and weirdos in the outside world. Sure they shelter us but they would not cry if we went away. They are fighting real hard to be accepted and have gained much more than we have in that arena.

But I am not afraid to be associated with them. They are just people; sometime people who dress different, but just people. If I am called "Gay" by anyone, so what? I can either let it go or I can make a big fuss and stomp my 4" heel. I put myself in that position. I associate with gays because some of my best friends are gay and gee even some relatives (probably more than I know). I wonder if I hung out with bikers I would get a Harley?

Ok see ya all later, I have a meeting with the recruiter. We're going to a ballet recital. But I am not gay.

[Samantha B L]

I'm an m to f crossdresser. I consider it that I'm crazy about girls AND their clothes. I'm not a Lesbian. But I've always had the opinion of myself that I'm definately what you'd call a "sissy" for want of a better word. Over the years I've reached a point where I don't care what people think of me. I am not gay or transexual. However I have lots of freinds who are gay or transexual. Sometimes I think maybe many of us in the forum shouldn't be so quick to differeniate ourselves from the gays so drastically. I mean,plenty of people are finding out that just because you dress it doesn't always mean you're gay anyway. And gay people aren't going to come to our houses and apartments and drag us out in the middle of the night. I think we need to be a tiny bit more considerate about this gay thing and too,we all need to remember that the forum has got hundreds and thousands of f to m's and Transmen. What comes to my mind is that if literally ALL of the LGBT/TG/TS/CD people got together we'd make one monster social force and voting block.

[Fab Karen]

Other than people you want to have sex with, or close friends, why does it matter if some people assume you're gay?

Ok see ya all later, I have a meeting with the recruiter. We're going to a ballet recital.

It's a man's life in the army.