USA.. A-okay

[Jamie M]

After reading quite a few personal stories of some girl's first outings and experiences it would seem to me that alot of you who live in the US seem to fear the reaction of Joe Bloggs more than those in the UK or elsewhere for that matter.

Am i just imagining this or is it a very real problem in the 'New Territories'. I can say that in the limited experience I've had, most people don't really care. They may look, they may stare , even giggle at times but I've never had a bad experience. Have I just been lucky so far ?

Luv Julia

[jenniferluv]

It is quite a bit different here in the colonies/new world. I sometimes wish I lived in UK where people are more accepted for simply what they are versus how they look. For all it's good/great points I find the good old USA to be a nation of biggoted redneck hooligans for the most part. and those who are left are so caught up in the world of cliques that there is no time for them to accept anything other than what they see as right and correct. Perhaps I am being a bit cynical but this is what I have grown up with and experienced for all of my life after age 10

[Natalie x]

[size=4]Yes, on the whole the uk is probably more accepting of people's right to express themselves how they choose, even if it falls outside the "norm". We seem to be more concerned with how embarrassed we would be if we came face to face with someone we know, than with personal danger. Mind you, I wouldn't want to run into a bunch of chavs with a skinful, late on a Friday night if I was dressed as a woman, or even if I was a woman, or a man, or a cat, for that matter! There are some situations that it's simply best to avoid, and any that involve the combination of alcohol and testosterone should be high on anyone's list.[/size]

[Deidra Cowen]

Its not Joe Bloogs...its Joe Sixpack here. And yes the underclass that has the broad nickname of 'Rednecks.' are a problem for tgirls here in the USA. However in the larger cities there are enclaves of liberal diverse people where we can move about rather freely.

Thats what I do in Atlanta. Mainly stay in enlightened enclaves. But I have been know to stray onto enemy territory. (i.e. Waffle House)

[Rachel_740]

[size=4]Mind you, I wouldn't want to run into a bunch of chavs with a skinful, late on a Friday night if I was dressed as a woman, or even if I was a woman, or a man, or a cat, for that matter![/size]

I was at the Sidmouth Folk Festival en-femme one evening last year (this time last year - it's on at the moment but I don't think I'll manage the 10 mile drive this year), watching some of the street performers and the guy stood next to me said to his mate 'is that a man or a woman?' obviously talking about me. They had both obviously had their fair share of drink, but that's as far as it went - his mate didn't even answer - and there was certainly no trouble.

Anne

[Jamie M]

[size=4]Mind you, I wouldn't want to run into a bunch of chavs with a skinful, late on a Friday night if I was dressed as a woman, or even if I was a woman, or a man, or a cat, for that matter![/size]

Too true. Again , is this just a UK phenomenon or is the chav influence spreading worldwide . Dear God , I hope not.

Back to the subject, do you think that it could just be that people in the UK are too embarrased to cause a scene when they think they've 'spotted someone' rather than being more open minded. Either way I'm not complaining

[Mx Justina]

Europe, and many other parts of the world have had time and inclination to allow for social accommodations to what is deemed as "risque" and "bohemian" lifestyles... usually non-politicised, and often allowed to flourish in cosmopolitan areas (IMO).

Less so in the huge union (or empire?) known as the United States. Stereotypes and hipocracies are re-enforced into controlling social views (media and tv are ideal for this)...worse now with the increasing N.W.O. police-state mass control.

Also, there's a night and day difference between cosmopolitan and non-cosmopolitan areas (often synonimous with "red-neck")... There's never enough critical-mass or social visibility in the hinterland (non-cosmopolitan areas) to override the social controlling status quo. However, social control and intimidation is less effective in city and heavily urban areas.

J.

[Deborah]

and besides that everyone and their sister has a gun over here.

[Lauren_T]

Julia, I'm an Anglophile and damn proud of my (partly) English ancestry, and I'm here to tell you that I've studied this much of my life.

The English, at their best, are THE most civilized people on Earth, and it's England that brought civilization to much of the world. So it shouldn't be surprising that crossdressing is more acceptable to the average Brit than the average American.

Personal eccentricity is and has been for centuries an Englishman's birthright. After all, tolerance, just letting others be, is the major trait of civilized people. Over here, conformity is the order of the day, despite the 60s influence. Also, crossdressing is a time-honoured tradition over there, from Wm. Shakespeare to Monty Python.

The instant I can afford it, I'm leaving for Devon and plan to make it my home for the remainder of my days.

Don't get me wrong, as there are tolerant places in N. America, basically the West Coast, SF to Vancouver, and it truly is a wonderful, generally tolerant scene, but most of America remains pretty much personally self-righteous and judgmental.

So, yep. You UK sisters have it easier!








__________________________________________________ _
I used to think anyone doing anything weird was weird.
Now I know that it is the people who call others weird who are weird.
~ Paul McCartney

[Amelie]

I can't compare the UK to the US, because I don't know enough of the UK. I do know from what I hear that Chavs and Yobs have been known to be trouble. And parts of Brixton and Birmingham should be avoided. This is only from what I was told.

I can compare redneck areas and city areas of the US. I agree that rednecks will give CDs a hard time. But it isn't all that easy in the cities. Where I live, if I want to go out at night, I have to pass a gang of home-boys hanging out front. These guys are probably more dangerous that rednecks, these are the guys that the rednecks fled the cities to avoid. I do believe that city people(CDs) are so used to crime in general, that crime against CDs is just another one to add to the list, I think city CDs can handle a bad situation a bit better, because they confront crime more often.

I will say this again, I know that it is tough trying to be a CD in a redneck area, I agree with this but it is easier than having to walk past home-boy drug dealers.

I find the best way to handle these encounters, is to joke with these guys, if they don't take me too serious then they don't bother me, and in time, they get used to seeing me.
Oh, and this is in a liberal state, in the liberal part of the city. But really, it ain't all that bad, there is more fun for CDs to have in the cities to balance out the bad stuff.

[Phoebe Reece]

I think in America we are just a bit more paranoid. I've been out dressed in a lot of places in Atlanta, both day and night, and never had a problem. That's not to say there are not places that I would avoid. You have to use some judgement. There are many places in this town any real woman would have some nervousness about.

[Katrina]

...Personal eccentricity is and has been for centuries an Englishman's birthright. After all, tolerance, just letting others be, is the major trait of civilized people. Over here, conformity is the order of the day, despite the 60s influence. Also, crossdressing is a time-honoured tradition over there, from Wm. Shakespeare to Monty Python...
__________________________________________________ _
I used to think anyone doing anything weird was weird.
Now I know that it is the people who call others weird who are weird.
~ Paul McCartney

I saw a documentary on Queen a while ago and in one of their videos, they were in drag. The song and video was apparently very popular in the UK, but in the US, it almost devastated their popularity. I guess the people in the UK are just more tolerant of this sort of thing.

[Tristen Cox]

I've tried to explain this before but no one seems to get it, alas I will attempt one more time.

The whole of England is less than four digits in miles top to bottom. The US is far larger and separated by much greater distances. The ratio of accepting areas could be the same, however there is much more acreage in between those places, thus the illusion that we have less acceptance. There's just more to read 'in-between' the lines so to speak. In the UK there are lots of places separated by driving time, in the US we're separated by a flight if we want to go to certain hot spots(unless you like driving for days on end)
Where there's Manchester, we have San Fransisco.

For instance if there was(hypothetically) 20% of all England that was TG/CD friendly there might be 20% in the US that is also, however much further spread out.

Honestly I see a lot of the same goods and evils here and in the UK, we just speak with an accent right

[Melissa Ryan]

Honestly I see a lot of the same goods and evils here and in the UK, we just speak with an accent right

Well Tristen, I have gone back through heaps of your posts. And I just cant pick your accent at all!!


.....Melissa..........

[Ophelia D'Void]

In biology, it's been a known phenomenon that whenever you have a fairly large population density of a certain species in a certain area, weird stuff starts to happen to the animals: They eat their own young, and a bunch of other stuff (can't say I was paying attention in class at the time).

I can say that in the big cities there is a larger chance of seeing something weird that people do, as opposed to in rural areas, where everyone is more similar. In addition, in areas of high population, people tend to have a certain level of annonymity (not always, but usually), and as a result feel more immune to being considered a weirdo as opposed to if you're a weirdo, and it gets all the way back to your Aunt Fanny.

So, ya, crossdressers are just one flavor of strange being that one can come across in the big city, and if you happen to see the guy talking to the hole in his pants or the guy wearing dirty underwear on his head, the suddenly CD's don't seem so weird in comparison. Ya, people might say "hey, look at that" but they don't take it as a personal assault on their country and God above that there's two guys kissing on the corner.

So, maybe because the US is more spread out than the UK, you have less chance of seeing weirdness in some areas. Mathematically speaking, one guy walking down the street with dirty underwear on his head can be seen by say, 2,000 people from his door step to the bus stop in an area of high population density, whereas in an area of low population density he might only be seen by fifty people on that same trek to the bus stop in an area of low density, even if the populations are the same but the density is different.

So I can only imagine the type of weirdos you'd find in China or India, or maybe weirdness just becomes part of the social norm (like lying on a bed of nails in public while in your underwear... no offense to my Hindu brothers and sisters... go Bollywood!).

Ciao

[Sweet Jeanette]

I am a Redneck, and I live in a Redneck town---52 miles from- ANYWHERE! ---I just happen to be a redneck Crossdresser, and, believe me, -I KNOW what to look out for, and what to avoid!!!

[Tristen Cox]

I just happen to be a redneck Crossdresser, and, believe me, -I KNOW what to look out for, and what to avoid!!!

I'm guessing that's the moist charcoal? :whistle:

[Lauren_T]

I'm much afeared that this is one of those situations that provoke me into 'Political Incorrectitude.'

It's a common enough error, Tristen (and whoever else thinks along these lines), but that argument never made it, never will. Sorry. It stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of statistical realities. For one thing, geography has little to nothing to do with peoples' interpersonal attitudes and behavior.

"...a lot of the same goods and evils here and in the UK" Um, I um, er, well...

That's a content-free assertion, sorry. Society in America and society in England (not the UK, just the English bit of it) are extremely similar, they overlap tremendously. But - they are still different . The people are different, the customs, traditions, mores and folkways are different. The typical citizens of these two places differ in education, religiosity, extroversion / introversion, aggression / passivity, class awareness, and on and on! Most of these differences are of a very tiny degree; in oh-so-many ways there's no effective, significant difference at all. But in some ways the aggregate character of the two pops are different; therefore, as individuals, the people are also different.

The field of social psychology - which is not the same as sociology - is a sadly neglected field and is seldom well-understood even by persons active in closely-allied fields. The somewhat vague term 'national character' is what's at issue here. The people in each place think differently and act differently. Here's something few people realize: a tiny, seemingly insignificant difference betweeen two large groups of people has major, far-reaching effects.

(an aside, not as irrelevant as it seems: have you ever read the Foundation Trilogy, Tristen? If so, then you should know where I'm coming from on this)

I was going to go on at length but decided to change course and simplify here:

Proof that the English people and the American people are dissimilar in many of their attitudes was right there, big as life, in the last election. A large number of Americans voted for an arrogant, bullying, hypocritical, dopey, coke-snorting, drunken frat-boy liar who got out of military service by having his obscenely wealthy and influential family pull strings for him. They voted for this jug-eared dimwit over a decorated war hero, also from great wealth, who didn't have Daddy pull strings to keep him safe, but went over there and put his life on the line fighting for his country. Millions of Americans were conned into seeing the draft-dodger as, of all things, a hero, while the true hero was deemed "unpatriotic!"

Now the election itself was very close, no? A near 50-50 split. Do you remember the reaction from England? As I recall, well over eighty percent of the English were against the jug-eared liar! As I sat there and watched, people from all walks of English life expressed their amazement at how gullible Americans were to fall for such obvious, transparent crap!

The two cultures are being homogenized, but the diffs are still there. The English are simply more tolerant (and more cynical!) than Americans, by any measure!

No, Tristen, most of the goods & evils we have, they have too - but in different degrees. If this weren't true, the average Brit would have the same chances of dying as a victim of violent crime as Americans have - but they don't, by a very large factor. Because their attitudes are different.

Nowhere else on Earth are the rights of the individual respected and treasured as they are in England (despite what you may have been taught in an American classroom... ). They invented "live and let live" while we generally pay lip service to it, busy programming the next generation of conformist consumerist clones!

Please, Tristen, think about it. The simplistic concept of 'everybody's the same everywhere' has been accepted for too long. People are not equal. People were never equal. People will never be equal. Equality is supposed to mean receiving the same treatment, from gov't or other individuals, as the next person receives. It does not mean that people are identical. No two people who ever lived are equal. It's an impossibility!

SO. No two groups of people are the same. Only point I was making. Rant over!





__________________________________________
I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America.
~ de Tocqueville

[Tristen Cox]

*yawn* as usual missed my point again. Nevermind..

[Lauren_T]

*yawn* as usual missed my point again. Nevermind..

Again? Sorry, never saw the previous...

Seemed to me your point was that the US and the UK accept CDs to the same degree. That isn't what you were saying?

Hmm, I guess this Thorazine isn't working out for me at all!

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I can say that in the big cities there is a larger chance of seeing something weird that people do, as opposed to in rural areas, where everyone is more similar. In addition, in areas of high population, people tend to have a certain level of annonymity (not always, but usually), and as a result feel more immune to being considered a weirdo as opposed to if you're a weirdo, and it gets all the way back to your Aunt Fanny.

Another factor is geography. Cities that are/were "mixing zones" are usually more tolerant than cities in mono-cultural areas. Historically, these often were port cities, which resulted in lots of different folks rubbing elbows. San Francisco's tolerant nature can be traced back to the Gold Rush, which drew folks from around the globe, as well as its later status as a major port. It's also in the American West, where people often re-invented themselves because most of the other people were new in town as well.

[Khriss]

-yeah-two pence-in
I've always figured that the "British" public was generaly more tolerant of "cross dressing" for several reasons, not the powdered wigs worn even today in court there , ie; - King George, (Our George Washington had one too) I see an English history repleat with crossdressing- especialy in humor, drag "Queens" - personas like Dame Edna ,the Python boy's "drag racing" and more, now Eddy Izzard, and there have been firsts in -I believe the 1st transexual was Christene Jorgenson, a Britsh subject (?), the first "once was a guy "Bond Girl" was Tula, and on and on,, seems to de-stigmatize the cross gender issue in the general population some, I would think? I mean - we had "Uncle Miltie" or Flip Wilson as Geraldene, but it barely compares-
I'm also inclined to agree with Tristen that geograpic distance can impeed a sense of "community" -especialy in real life contact, I hear much more of and about "get-togethers" in Britain. ,,, and while negative responce to cross-gender issues could be considered universal, I'm thinkin' walkin' "dressed" in daylight ,in downtown Salt Lake City, or Lubok Texas might be a very bad decision! -"K"


and -Lauren-hehe- Britains finest Hour?- We were in on that! don't get a nosebleed on that tall-tall horse!

[Helana]

The diiferences between the UK and US has 2 main factors.

1. Britain is a small, highly urbanized country. Virtually everybody either lives in a city or lives within an hours drive of a city. The urbanized lifestyle promotes tolerence because people are squashed into a small space so have to find mechanisms to get on with each other peacfully. In contrast America is a huge country and outside the major cities the population density is so low that people living there have no need to develop higher tolerence levels. Thus you get the stark contrast of liberal cities against the "redneck" interior.

2. America is a conquered land, it was not all that long ago that men were driving their station wagons over thousands of miles of wilderness fighting off Indians! America is a land where men are brought up to be especially "macho". The concept of the cowboy hero is still alive and well, every American boy was brought up on a diet of John Wayne movies. American heroes are always all-action men who win.

The UK has been a settled and industrialised nation for hundreds of years - we don't have a vast wilderness to conquer, or tribal Indians to fight against. There are no macho heros in our culture, instead the British focus on social divisions of the rich and the poor, of royality and the common people. The British love self-mockery ala classics such as Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Black Adder, Mr Bean etc and British heros are actually the ones who don't win, who dont get the girl, who go from one misfortune to the next. The British just laugh off at things and have a "live and let live" attitude since it does not matter if you are a winner or a loser.

[Amelie]

The diiferences between the UK and US has 2 main factors.

1. Britain is a small, highly urbanized country. Virtually everybody either lives in a city or lives within an hours drive of a city. The urbanized lifestyle promotes tolerence because people are squashed into a small space so have to find mechanisms to get on with each other peacfully. In contrast America is a huge country and outside the major cities the population density is so low that people living there have no need to develop higher tolerence levels. Thus you get the stark contrast of liberal cities against the "redneck" interior.

2. America is a conquered land, it was not all that long ago that men were driving their station wagons over thousands of miles of wilderness fighting off Indians! America is a land where men are brought up to be especially "macho". The concept of the cowboy hero is still alive and well, every American boy was brought up on a diet of John Wayne movies. American heroes are always all-action men who win.

The UK has been a settled and industrialised nation for hundreds of years - we don't have a vast wilderness to conquer, or tribal Indians to fight against. There are no macho heros in our culture, instead the British focus on social divisions of the rich and the poor, of royality and the common people. The British love self-mockery ala classics such as Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Black Adder, Mr Bean etc and British heros are actually the ones who don't win, who dont get the girl, who go from one misfortune to the next. The British just laugh off at things and have a "live and let live" attitude since it does not matter if you are a winner or a loser.

I don't know about your last paragraph. While the Americans were fighting Indians, British soldiers were all over the world looting and killing native people of other lands. Maybe the English acted like gentlemen while they were on UK soil, but outside of the UK they were more like barbarians, conquering other people's lands. There are pleanty of Macho heroes in UK history, Nelson, Montgomery, Kitchener, Wellingtom, Gordon, Wolfe and James Bond for a fantasy figure. All these guys are famous for being warriors, maybe not Bond. Also I think one can ask the Irish if they think the British are a peaceful people.
It was aslo the British with their European allies of today, the French and Germans, that started the two most destructive wars in madern times, WW1, WW2. Britain joined both wars because of another country Belguim(WW1) and Poland(WW2) had been attacked by Germany. But today, it is the people of all these countries, especially France, Germany, and most in the UK who complain about the US's involvement in Iraq. I don't think any European coultry has a leg to stand on telling the US what is right and what is wrong, when they themselves have done so much more damage to the world in violence.

The cowboy hero is a myth, maybe in the older generations, but very few of todays young people care about cowboys, especially John Wayne. If there is a violent idol in the US today, itis of the rappers gangster images, not cowboys.

In the not too far past it wasn't all that safe to go to a football match because of hooligans. These guys travel everywhere just to cause mayhem, yes, these are those non-violent English I hear about. The UK also had a riot spree in the eighties in many cities,across the UK. I have even heard of riots in places like Maidstone Kent, this is not a typical place for a riot to brake out, Maidstone is usually quite peaceful, like suburbia is in the US.

I am not saying that the US is safer than the UK or vis-a versa, but the UK is far from utopia, the people of the UK can and are just as violent as the people of the US.

[Marla GG]

Very interesting thread!

I have given this considerable thought and posted about it in the past:
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...73&postcount=5

In my opinion, the UK is more tolerant of crossdressers for several reasons. One is the lack of a politically powerful and vocal religious right in the UK. Yes, Christians in the UK go to church, but they don't seem as interested in stamping out "immoral" behavior in their fellow citizens. They seem more content to worship privately and mind their own business. Over there, I have never once seen one of these bumper stickers that say "Real men love Jesus" or "The family that prays together stays together." People do not affix chrome crosses and Christian symbols to their cars. There is not this huge population of voters ready to support a socially conservative political agenda in the name of religion. Consequently, Britons seem more open-minded about many things, especially sexuality. And even though crossdressing is not strictly speaking a sexual practice, it is often perceived that way....which in America brings it into conflict with right-wing values.

Then, as others have mentioned, there a longstanding tradition of crossdressing in British entertainment. From traditional Christmas pantomime performances (in which stock female characters are played by men) to current television shows like "Little Britain," crossdressing is just more visible and as Khriss said, somewhat destigmatized as a result. The fact that it is often used to get laughs, I think, just makes it seem all the more harmless.

And finally, I do believe that Britain is more tolerant and even proud of its eccentrics. Just go into any village pub and you will see no shortage of what an American would think of as "characters." They may be have crooked teeth, they may dress funny, they may be sporting enormous horn-rimmed glasses and a bad comb-over, but they seem oblivious to all this as they sit there with their friends, perfectly content to be who they are. I guess they never got the Hollywood memo that says everyone has to look the same. Now, I don't want to overstate my case here; there are some in the UK who are just as obssessed with image and conformity as Americans are, particularly in the cities and among the youth. But everywhere I've been in England, I've noticed that people are less fussed about this than they are in this country. How does that relate to crossdressing? Well, I think it shows more of a willingness on the part of Britons to accept those who look different, and to let people be themselves.

I am not saying that crossdressers have it easy in the UK; I'm just pointing out some factors that I think tend to smooth the way a bit for our UK sisters.