Do we "get it"?

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I very much disagree that most of us started dressing for sexual reasons. I first wanted to wear "girls clothes" when I was a little kid, with memories as early as pre-school of wanting to play dressup and feel pretty. Sex hadn't even entered the picture yet. I think it's the repression of those desires that leads to later fetishizing and sexualizing.

But this isn't a discussion of why we started dressing. So far the responses have been interesting to read, keep them up!

[melissacd]

I know that I have already responded to this thread once but this is one of the more interesting threads that I have seen in a long time because it gets to the heart of the matter for me.

As was pointed out, my biology, my male physiology, has never been an issue for me, I just want to dress in girls things, enjoy lingerie, enjoy hosiery, enjoy the styles, the patterns, the colors, the expressiveness, the shoes, the coats, the whole joyful creativity and variety of it all. Quite plainly put, women's things are so much more interesting to me than men's things and always have been. This has never been for me an issue of being in the wrong body - I like the body that I have. It has always for me been about being in the wrong outfits and having to express myself in this world in a way that I do not want to. I like being able to enjoy being in a dress, wearing make up, wearing nylons, wearing high heels, painting my nails and so on. I like adorning my house with feminine things, I like a girlie bedroom, lacey curtains, pinks, my linens and bath towels and so many things that guys are not supposed to like.

To me it is a lifestyle, a way of expressing and existing that makes me feel good about myself and the world around me in a way that driving a truck or playing hockey or being a tough guy never could.

To me this is so much more than dressing but so little about my biological sex and it is certainly not about fetishism or sexuality.

The interesting thing is that I have in the past given pause to the possibility of hormones and surgery to become more female like not because I ever wanted this but because at a certain point I was worried that that would be my only choice to live a life, to fit in. I have found with my getting out into public and getting more comfortable with being in a femme mode that in fact there are other choices that can be just as successful without going to those other expensive and painful and irreversible changes.


Melissa

[JamieOH]

I too started dressing at an early age, before I even thought about sexual anything... I stole one of my sisters nightgowns, and wore it every night.. and would sneak into her room and put on her school uniform jumpers and blouse/skirts.. I never had a sexual feeling with it, I just knew it felt right... I was me... I felt wonderful and happy... That is all I know...

[Satrana]

Years ago when I dressed in front of my mirror, I used to hate the part when I was half transformed. The clothes were on but the wig, makeup, jewelry etc were missing. At this point I could still recognize myself as a man in a dress. The word that would enter my mind was "pervert!" and I would feel disgusted with myself. I used to rush to finish my transformation so I could see a woman in the mirror rather than my male self.

I believe this is one of the principal reasons why CDs want to go the whole way. The man in a dress look just feels wrong and it is hard to shake off this conditioning.

The second reason for emulation is that it fulfills our elaborate fantasies we have conjured up over the years where we imagine we actually become a real woman. We want to re-enact the idea that we can be transformed into a sexy, desirable female. This complete transformation is also necessary for AGP where CDs sexually respond to the female image in the mirror.

Thirdly CDs like emulation because it becomes a ritual for discarding our male burdens and gaining entry to female privileges. It becomes our version of stepping through the looking glass into an alternative reality where we become a different person by occupying the female social role and so people relate to us differently. Just look at the huge success of role playing games on computers to see how attractive this idea is. CDs get to play this game in the flesh so to speak.

To Doc -although sexuality plays a major part in the CDing community, remember most CDs discovered their behavior several years before puberty. So while AGP is a common activity for many, it is not the root cause for CDs who began as young boys.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

The second reason for emulation is that it fulfills our elaborate fantasies we have conjured up over the years where we imagine we actually become a real woman. We want to re-enact the idea that we can be transformed into a sexy, desirable female.

But that's sort of the heart at what I'm getting at. At what point does this stop being simply crossdressing and instead land somewhere further down the TG spectrum?

Thirdly CDs like emulation because it becomes a ritual for discarding our male burdens and gaining entry to female privileges. It becomes our version of stepping through the looking glass into an alternative reality where we become a different person by occupying the female social role and so people relate to us differently. Just look at the huge success of role playing games on computers to see how attractive this idea is. CDs get to play this game in the flesh so to speak.

I do understand the need for escapism and such, I actually occasionally play Live Action Roleplaying games with some friends of mine, where one creates a total character and there's a great deal of stepping outside yourself into another role.

The difference here is that when people play a roleplaying game, if someone starts to identify their character as being their true self, or saying they feel more alive or comfortable as their avatar or such, then people start to worry about them and their grip on reality. While crossdressing is fun and can really relax us, there's a lot more to it than just playing a game. Almost universally it is referred to on here as something that comes from deep within us as an urge to express our feminine side. I don't think many people have a natural urge to kill Orcs. The only folks who I think really fit the "roleplaying game" model with their crossdressing are drag queens, as there are definitely some that I've spoken to who tell me that they only dress in women's clothes when they are performing as their character. For them it is a costume.

I'm not denying the escapism aspect of crossdressing doesn't exist, I'm just saying that in roleplaying often the goal is to become someone totally outside yourself where I think when we crossdress we're trying to connect with something within.

As for gaining entry to female privileges, that is absolutely part of why CDs try to pass. like I said before, it seems to be a response to social rules telling us "Boys can't do that, only girls can." So we become part girl to do it. Women on the other hand have for decades been saying "Um, no, we're doing this," and just marched their way into it.

My thought is just, doesn't this then become just a vicious cycle?

[melissacd]

For some it is role playing, no question. For others I think that it is an alignment with who they are. Clothing is just that. Interests are just that. Cultures make arbitrary decisions on whether something is appropriate or not even if that arbitrary decision makes no sense at all.

I dress femme because that is who I really am, that is what I identify with. I do not identify with masculine anything. My gender expression preferences are what our culture would classify as feminine. I just call them my interests plain and simple. And I now accept that those leaning, those interests are fine the way they are.

I do know many cross dressers who are very in to the whole role playing thing when they dress up, but I am exactly the same person and behaviour when in a pair of pants and a T as I am when in a dress and heels. I am just me.

Melissa

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

I do know many cross dressers who are very in to the whole role playing thing when they dress up, but I am exactly the same person and behaviour when in a pair of pants and a T as I am when in a dress and heels. I am just me.

I usually only dress fully en femme when it is for a costume, so for the that can be a bit of a roleplay, like I dressed as a french maid for halloween. I do see some CDs who take on a new persona when they dress up, but I often feel some concern for those folks because, although I'm playing armchair psychiatrist here, I feel like in many cases the "persona" becomes a way to shift the blame. Especially when in male mode they refer to their female side in third person and talk about her like she's a separate person from him entirely. I've seen people on this forum but mostly other forums who talk about the things they do as "Katie" that they would never do as Bob. Sounds like Bob does indeed do those things.

[Abbyru1]

My cross dressing is not a perversion to me. It's just me wearing clothing that I like.
Acceptence by the whole of society is not the main thing in my life. My wife barely
tolerates what I do. I am not going to put myself into a place that will cause me
problems in my work, in my social life or my home life. That doesn't mean I am willing to give it all up but would if circumstances( read that something pretty dang life threatening) gave me no other option.I am what I am. No one has to accept or be
damned but it is what I do. I'm not going to flaunt it anybody's face either. We have come a long way,but a guy in women's clothing is not the norm. If you can pass,
congratulations. But you had better be really good in your presentation because one
little screw up and your still a guy in women's clothing no matter how much effort is
involved to be there. I'll never be read as female- - -maybe after a huge amount of surgery! I'm not here to nag anybody for the way they may or not dress. I like where
I am with what I have.

[lavistaa62]

I question women not wearing men's clothes and presenting as men while CDs struggle to do the opposite. Working women nowadays- besides the surburban flexi-wrist movement (I won't get into that now) mostly don't try to be "female" and a lot of them don't really try to be attractive (I'm not criticizing) any more than men do- at least in the US, other places are different. Kept housewives and some young single women are a notable exception.

Mens' clothes try to be durable, rugged or distinquished, they are not generally attractive nor meant to be. I would argue that women wearing mens' clothes ARE in fact working quite hard to present themselves as men by de-objectifying themselves or at least that was the original motivation. Over the years of course the fashion industry has stolen the movement, commercialized it and attempted to make even pants suits flattering. Flattery is what women's clothes have always been all about.

When men wear women's clothes then they go for the girly bits to flatter themselves which course means emulating the female body and mannerisms. The prancing and preening is a natural extension of the clothes- just as being comfortable and practical is a natural extension of wearing mens' clothes- which incidentally my wife is doing today- 100% my clothes since they are comfortable. The discrepancy of men (me) who are supposed to be heroic and courageous being afraid of exposing any element of femininity while my wife- the supposed demure and frightened female society says I am supposed to defend and protect bravely dressing and acting as she chooses does not escape me.

Men could adopt flattering clothing but I'm not sure how they would be mass marketed. In the past, men upper class men dressed like a woman only in pantaloons, etc. That just doesn't float now because men are draped in the whole manly thing which society will not let us remove. My ex wife gave me that sort of crap despite my earning 4x her wage, 2x her education, a 56 heartbeat and having 9% bodyfat. Because I could cook, coordinate colors, sew and had female friends I wasn't a "man", because I didn't like any of the big four sports I was "odd". It goes on. My point is that pressures- from male and female members of society prevent males from openly adopting female qualities even when it's clear society would benefit from their doing so. When that nonsense falls away it will be interesting to see how or if CD feelings manifest themselves.

[Satrana]

At what point does this stop being simply crossdressing and instead land somewhere further down the TG spectrum?

Although emulation may reflect a deeper TG personality, often I believe it does not. If you have spent a lifetime dreaming of your female persona as a fully endowed female, then you will only feel contented when your real life dressing matches your self image. The important distinction here is the self image is not derived from a deep TG subconscious need but rather it was developed in our dreams.

Here is an analogy. If you wished to be a bird so you could fly - would you satisfy this dream by being a passenger on a 747 or learning how to handglide? The desire to soar freely as a bird does not mean who actually have a deeper need within to become a bird.

Almost universally it is referred to on here as something that comes from deep within us as an urge to express our feminine side.

Yes but that does not explain why dressing in clothes alone does not satisfy the urge to express femininity. Emulation is needed to convince ourselves and others to see and treat us like we were real women even if everyone knows we are not. So the need for emulation is not derived from the urge to express femininity but rather it is a tool required to be granted access to female social roles and emotions.

Remember CDs say they don't want to actually become women, they just want the freedom to express femininity. This is contradicted if they feel they cannot achieve this without emulation. It only makes sense if you are heavily transgendered and truly want to go full time.

I would argue that women wearing mens' clothes ARE in fact working quite hard to present themselves as men by de-objectifying themselves or at least that was the original motivation.

I very much agree. The reason why masculine clothing has become so dominant in female culture is because it is used to de-femininze their appearance to conform to the modern woman ideal the feminist movement championed and it also avoids the negative stereotypes such as the dumb blond. It is crossdressing for a different reason - not to directly emulate the male gender but to distance themselves from their own traditional feminine image which limited their potential.

[Frédérique]

The idea is more, if you identify as a m2f crossdresser, and you say that your motivations for doing so is that you like the clothes, as opposed to wanting to be or feel like or appear as a woman, then why is it so important for you to present a female image, aside from the convenience argument, that being en femme gives you a degree of anonymity that allows you to dress the way you please?

[SIZE="2"]It’s like a series of steps along a twisting transvestism career path – obviously it’s different for you. I want to see how far I can carry myself along this chosen route. I know where it’s taking me, but the meaning is in the journey itself. I suppose it’s all about curiosity – curiouser and curiouser and CURIOUSER. Presenting a female image is only the final, outer piece of the transformation – more construction, in regards to gender integration, is accomplished behind the curtains, away from prying eyes…

However, I don’t agree that being en femme produces a “degree of anonymity.” Huh? In my case it actually brings a heightened presence, visibility and vulnerability that are at odds with my own personality. I’m not an extrovert, so being en femme is purely a private pleasure. I can do it within the parameters of my lifestyle, in fact it’s been tailored to fit (quite snugly) within those constraints. Wanting to be a woman? No. Wanting to feel like a woman? No (how does it feel?). Wanting to appear as a woman? Not exactly, but somewhere within those three desires is the truth of the matter, and it’s fun to be there, keeping everyone guessing… [/SIZE]

[SusieK]

Here is an analogy. If you wished to be a bird so you could fly - would you satisfy this dream by being a passenger on a 747 or learning how to handglide? The desire to soar freely as a bird does not mean who actually have a deeper need within to become a bird.

Damn, you beat me to the analogy. To take this further, as a human being, even if you were able to be a bird, this particular dream would be to experience the bird's life at least to some degree through the eyes of a human being. Otherwise you would just be a bird, and would no longer appreciate how special it was to be able to fly.

Now, the image of femininity that we aspire to is based on being bombarded throughout our lives with images from the media regarding what it is to be sexy, attractive and feminine. For GGs, none of this is special, it's just how it is. But from an MTF CD perspective, it is very alluring. By dressing we can capture an impression of what we feel it would be like to be an attractive woman.

I'd be interested to hear a GG comment on how it feels to get dressed up for a special night out for example. Although I don't go out en femme, dressing for me would be along similar lines, with a ritualised process of preparation, cleansing and transformation, from a normal guy to a (poor) approximation of an attractive woman. The whole process gradually alters the state of mind, and although it is still me, it is different, and I am suffused by a warm glow of contentment. (I am not talking about anything sexual in this scenario) I can then lose myself in a sense of the feminine, or my fantasy version of the feminine at any rate.

An analogy for this process is a musician at any level. The mindset of playing is that you settle down to play and go through a ritual of warm up exercises to tune back in, to deliberately prepare your mental state. As you continue something wondrous happens, and your mind moves into a special state of concentration and focus. You're still you, the same person who started to play but your mind has reached a state that leaves you with a lasting sense of well being. There is no need to create an alter-ego "music man" who you have temporarily become, and nor are you putting on an act.

Well for me, that's how dressing is at its best.

I don't consider it as contrived as roleplaying as I don't put on an act. The same is true when I'm out as normal as a guy, I rarely have to put on an act - I'm just me, but nevertheless different people I come into contact with get different aspects of my personality. I'm different at work to how I am at home. Different when just with my wife compared to when my kids are around. Different when I'm on my own. I didn't have a girl-name before I joined this community, and it's not an alter-ego as such, but it's a reasonable label for how I am sometimes, when I'm on my own as Susie, but she's still just me.

There's more to it than that, often with contradictions as well, but as I say, that's dressing at its best.

The bit I don't get is the depth of the need - but that's probably for a different thread.

Susie (but still just me)

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

However, I don’t agree that being en femme produces a “degree of anonymity.” Huh? In my case it actually brings a heightened presence, visibility and vulnerability that are at odds with my own personality. I’m not an extrovert, so being en femme is purely a private pleasure. I can do it within the parameters of my lifestyle, in fact it’s been tailored to fit (quite snugly) within those constraints. Wanting to be a woman? No. Wanting to feel like a woman? No (how does it feel?). Wanting to appear as a woman? Not exactly, but somewhere within those three desires is the truth of the matter, and it’s fun to be there, keeping everyone guessing… [/SIZE][/FONT]

All these comments of mine that you are disagreeing with were not my own thoughts but thoughts that had been stated on other occasions here by others. I was reacting to them. There are people who have said that "passing" helps them to dress without fear of being recognized because they look so different from their drab selves. That's the anonymity I was referring to.

I would argue that women wearing mens' clothes ARE in fact working quite hard to present themselves as men by de-objectifying themselves or at least that was the original motivation.

I don't disagree, and I think that has a lot to do with the one sided street aspect of this whole discussion. I think socially we've been programmed to think that a woman blending masculinity into her style is bettering or strengthening herself, where as a man who adds touches of feminine is weakening himself.

Now, the image of femininity that we aspire to is based on being bombarded throughout our lives with images from the media regarding what it is to be sexy, attractive and feminine. For GGs, none of this is special, it's just how it is. But from an MTF CD perspective, it is very alluring. By dressing we can capture an impression of what we feel it would be like to be an attractive woman.

I think this is an interesting point. But I also think that once you get into that territory of specifically wanting to know what it would be like to be an attractive women, it starts to suggest that you're heading into more transgendered territory.

I'd be interested to hear a GG comment on how it feels to get dressed up for a special night out for example. Although I don't go out en femme, dressing for me would be along similar lines, with a ritualised process of preparation, cleansing and transformation, from a normal guy to a (poor) approximation of an attractive woman.

Ok, but, hear me out on this one, because you touched on my go-to argument. As was said earlier in this thread by another post, women adapted masculine stuff into their wardrobe partially in an effort to behave like men. Now, let's take this example of yours in reverse.

I know plenty of women who love football. They dress up in sports jerseys, they guzzle beer at tailgate games and eat junk food and hang out as one of the boys. They experience the primal, mob mentality of being a sports fan, and they feel like what it is to be one of the guys.

Now, many of these same girls will also have "Girls night out" type evenings where they get dressed up in their cutest clothes, do their hair and makeup and go out dancing and being girly as all get out. Right now the general social paradigm doesn't really allow for the male equivalent of the football girls. If a man wants to feel what it's like to go through the ritualized process of preparation and cleansing and such for a special night, currently it seems insisted upon that he at least try to approximate a female image.

The social contract states that men simply don't behave in this way. The social contract is flawed, however. But rather than fight it we have sold ourselves out to it. We've agreed that men don't behave this way so if we want to behave this way we need to dress as women. Thus, we're playing into the very system that keeps us down to begin with, via tacit subconscious agreement. But the fact is, men can look good dressed up in flattering, feminine clothes, with makeup and all that, without needing to fake that we're women. Eddie Izzard is the best proof of that in my opinion. Even when he wears false boobs he still presents as a male, and yet he looks better as a man in all that stuff than if he tried to seriously attempt a female image. And he also looks great in a men's suit. He can shift between the ultra feminine and the attractive masculine all he wants. He's hardly the first either, David Bowie did it decades before him! And we can all do that, we just have to stop convincing ourselves that we can't.

[Satrana]

even if you were able to be a bird, this particular dream would be to experience the bird's life at least to some degree through the eyes of a human being. Otherwise you would just be a bird, and would no longer appreciate how special it was to be able to fly.

Excellent point. CDs are really chasing an illusion of sorts, what we think of as femininity as viewed through the eyes of males. We are more interested in exploring this fantasy rather than integrating real life femininity into our mundane everyday existence.

As you continue something wondrous happens, and your mind moves into a special state of concentration and focus.

That is a better description than mine when I described the emulation process as a ritualized gateway. It is about shedding the male skin and focusing the mind and senses on the experience of femininity.

The social contract is flawed, however. But rather than fight it we have sold ourselves out to it. We've agreed that men don't behave this way so if we want to behave this way we need to dress as women. Thus, we're playing into the very system that keeps us down to begin with, via tacit subconscious agreement.

Wholeheartedly agree. It took me a long time to see this though. I was too caught up in pink fog, too reticent to let go of my private endorphin adventures. Too dependent on the ritual gateway to sensuality and the anonymity and permission emulation provides. There are two many advantages overall so I understand why most CDs do not want to go beyond this stage.

In the bigger scheme of things though, CDs are shooting themselves in the foot. People are not stupid, they do not appreciate two-faced people. Saying you need to express your femininity does not mean you have to emulate. Tomboys do not do this so the evidence is already clear. People understand that emulation is more about fantasy and illusion and being afraid to show your true self than anything else. Instead of showing off different facets of yourself as a different persona, we should be integrating everything together and being proud of who you are.

But we face a chicken and egg situation. Until society becomes accepting, boys will continue to go into hiding and will seek out the emulation solution. It is too easy, too convenient and provides too many advantages. But it also hinders public acceptance of tomgirls.

[izzfan]

I've said in another thread that I credit discovering "men in skirts" websites during my pre-teen and teen years with helping me develop my own style and freedom of dress attitude, but also I remember being blown away the first time I saw Eddie Izzard's "Dress to Kill" on HBO and saw how great a guy could look blending feminine and masculine together. Both of these things hit me while I was still in my developmental years, but even now I still feel the occasional pull from my childhood telling me "But you're a boy! boys don't wear makeup! boys don't wear skirts!" Well, this boy does.

Seeing Eddie Izzard on television (initially an interview with him on "Top Gear" in 2004) and "men in skirts" websites were the first things that, at the age of about 16, made me realise that I wasn't the "freak" that I thought I was and that I wasn't alone.

I am definately transgendered, I do not know whether I am a transvestite/crossdresser, an androgyne or a tomgirl . Perhaps I am all three of these things. The thing is, whilst I present my masculine side in public (in terms of personlity/expression.I try to make my appearence as androgynous as possible) and occasionally like doing "guy stuff". I generally feel a lot happier when I am dressed or in a "feminine" mood.

It is quite shocking that society is still quite rigid about male gender roles whereas there is a much wider range of personal expression available to women. How on earth do completely "masculine" men cope with this? (I could probably stand being "masculine" 24/7 for a few days/a couple of weeks but after a while it would probably drive me insane).

It is a terrible thing when I am informally forced by society to censor an intergral part of my being in most social situations. Yes, I have been out "en femme" on a few occasions but I have always had to have an "excuse" (eg: fancy dress) and I don't thinkthat I would have the confidence to go out en femme during the day.

[JamieOH]

Eddie Izzard is no doubt, an inspiration... I wish we all could have that courage.. it would make this whole thing easier on us all... We then would be seen in the Sheer numbers that we are as not being abnormal, but rather, being a significant part of the population.. and we would be taken seriously... the fashion world would love us for it too...

[Satrana]

How on earth do completely "masculine" men cope with this? (I could probably stand being "masculine" 24/7 for a few days/a couple of weeks but after a while it would probably drive me insane).

Well while some men have a natural personality that aligns well with the masculine role, the majority of men don't. Most men know that they are a fry cry from the alpha male others would like them to be. They are not interested in being violent and picking on weakness, not interested in commanding and dictating, not interested in always having to carry other people's burdens while internalizing their own. The problem is men lack the knowledge and tools to allow them to understand they have a choice in defining their own gender and it is ok not to be masculine.

It is interesting to see how many men mellow with age. As the need to prove masculinity recedes, older men are happy the forgo masculine rituals and competition and increasingly incorporate feminine traits. This is the ironic thing about wisdom, we need it most when we are young but it arrives late in life when we have little opportunity to make good use of it.