Women wearing mens cloths

[darcyann]

Hello all

Darcy Ann again, you know for many years I did not know what I wanted. It has taken me many years to understand all this. Yes I am kinda new to this and it is who I am. I do not intend to change my ways and views because society is telling me it is wrong that I can not do this, I can not do that. I must walk a fine line. Or I can not wear a certain piece of clothing. Yes society will never accept us 100%. What does make me really mad is that women can wear your cloths and say it is not off the wall and society accepts them. I think it has come down why society does not accept us is because we kept this hidden for many years and now we are coming out and it is getting better. I was just wondering when women first starting wearing mens cloths I am talking WW 2. Did we as men accept them for wearing cloths because they had too. Or were there alot of men who did not approve of it.


Love


Darcy Ann

[AngGG]

Hi I am pretty new here but hear me out and let me know if I am very far off track. My dh is cd and I try to be accepting and even encouraging because this is a part of who he is and I love the whole person. Now with that said on to the clothes. I think the clothes are only a small part of what society deems as unacceptable. When I don a tee shirt and jeans yes I am still me but in a tee shirt and jeans, no less fem and no more masculine. When my dh dons a pretty skirt and silky shirt he is no longer my dh but for lack of a better description my dw and girlfriend. So while yes I agree they are just clothes, pieces of fabric sewn together to make a style, they do envoke a personality change. Again, this is just an observation not a criticism.

AngGG

[Tamara Croft]

I was just wondering when women first starting wearing mens cloths I am talking WW 2. Did we as men accept them for wearing cloths because they had too. Or were there alot of men who did not approve of it.

I've taken a few snippets from this article, I think you will find quite a bit of info here. The article itself is a pretty good read.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/505095.stm

The First World War was the event that served to introduce large numbers of British women to their first pair of trousers, says Ms Harden.

Women were literally, as well as figuratively, wearing the trousers, as they temporarily took up the jobs their soldier fathers, brothers and husbands had vacated.

In the inter-war years, trousers for women became acceptable for the upper classes, and ranges of leisure and sports wear were not complete without baggy, floor brushing, light fabric ladies' trews.

By the 30s, film stars like Katharine Hepburn and Lauren Bacall had put the Hollywood stamp of glamour onto women's trousers, which during the 20s were only worn in the country or for sport.

"The Hollywood touch was very important at the time in terms of whether a look became fashionable or not," says Ms Harden.

And then the Second World War made women and utility trousers almost inseparable. Land girls and munitions workers couldn't really do their jobs in skirts - and besides, there just wasn't enough material available to waste on the non-functional.

And I found this bit quite amusing

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "skirt" as "a woman's outer garment hanging from the waist".

"Trousers" on the other hand, is not deemed to be a gender-specific word. "An outer garment reaching from the waist usually to the ankles, divided into two parts to cover the legs," says the OED.

[LaceLuvr's GG]

I can speak with certainty only for myself, but I suspect that for most of us, you can’t separate the clothing from the gender. I believe that for most of us, it’s not just the article of clothing, but what wearing that article of clothing represents, whether it be the feminine, the forbidden, or the sensual, and all of that would be lost in translation were the rules to change.

Renee

I'd like to add a lil something to that one renee. I think that was a great post by the way.

I know that when I throw on an old pair of jeans and t-shirt.. and look like a boy.. I feel rugged, ready to get dirty.. the stereotypical feeling of a boy. When I'm dressed up, ready for a night on the town..make up and hair done... the works.. I feel special, pretty.. and most of all different. I think that's where some of the problem lies. Women think that if a man dresses that way.. he may be feeling the same.. feelings that "manly" men should not feel.

How many times I hear women say that they wish there man were more understanding, more sensitive... but if they really were.. would they feel weird?? Awkward maybe?? I definately think that clothes are more than just a piece of cloth. They express our personality's. Tamara mentioned that she liked styles of clothes that are similiar to a man's. Tamara comes over to me as a very strong female.. (as I also fit into this catagory) maybe that has something to do with it. Most girls that wear nothing but baby tee's and mini shorts have a very "girlie, girlie" personality.

This may not make any sense..and I hope very much that it didn't come across as too stereotypical.. because if it did..that's not what I was going for, but I wanted to give my opinion.

[~Tammy~]

There seems to be alot of emphasis here on the fact that men don't just want to wear womens clothes, they want to actually look like women too.

This is not always the case.

For example:

• I like to wear skirts because I find them more comfortable than trousers or shorts.
• I like long hair but as mine is already falling out I cannot grow mine to look how I would like it and so wear a wig.
• I like to wear make-up and nail polish as it makes my face and hands look prettier.
• I like wearing boots as I believe my legs look better in them than shoes or trainers.
• I wax my legs as it feels and looks better. The same as I shave my face and chest.

I don't generally wear bra's, breast forms or extra padding. The few times I have is when I have been outside dressed and the only reason for that is that I would prefer to be as convincingly as female as possible as so avoid as much hassle. Rather than be more obviously a guy in womens clothes.

I would be perfectly happy to be able to do all these things and not worry about passing as a woman one little bit. But just to be an obvious guy in a skirt, stockings, boots, wig & make-up and not give have the stress or personal embarrasment of everyone looking and wondering why the heck a guy looks like that.

Just like a women can wear anything she wants in public and no-one bats an eyelid.

(My apologies to Abraxas if you don't find things quite so easy as that but this is from own perspective)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

This may not make any sense..and I hope very much that it didn't come across as too stereotypical.. because if it did..that's not what I was going for, but I wanted to give my opinion.

Actually I thought it made a lot of sense. I've noticed the same thing about how GGs' clothing often seems to reflect how they feel -- and how clothing at times seems like it can change their attitude.

As far as women wanting men to be more sensitive -- well the "nice guys" complaint is well-known: women say they want 'em, but end up saying "you're so nice, let's be friends" right before hopping on a Harley with a bad boy. Dunno what it all means...

[Helana]

I know that when I throw on an old pair of jeans and t-shirt.. and look like a boy.. I feel rugged, ready to get dirty.. the stereotypical feeling of a boy. When I'm dressed up, ready for a night on the town..make up and hair done... the works.. I feel special, pretty.. and most of all different. I think that's where some of the problem lies. Women think that if a man dresses that way.. he may be feeling the same.. feelings that "manly" men should not feel.

That nicely sumamries the whole point. Clothes do project our personality, they do project gender, they do send a signal to others about how we want to be treated. When a girl chooses to have a masculine wardrobe, there is an intention there which goes beyond the "trousers are more comfortable/practical" excuse.

I know of girls who have no dresses or skirts in their wardrobe whatsoever, and the colors they choose are invariably the masculine drab colors. They are not crossdressers, they are not pretending to be guys as they are quite obviously females, but they are making a clear choice NOT to present themsleves as feminine and take advantage of the gender-specific attributes we all associate with certain types of clothes.

Most women today downplay their femininity during the day by wearing masculine styled clothing then emphasize their femininity when they go out for a night on the town in a sexy LBD - and the feelings between the two modes are quite different!

[LaceLuvr's GG]

Thank you very much for the responses Darla and Helena. I was so worried that I might have sound offensive.. even though I was in NO WAY going for that aspect.

I'd like to hear more opinions from CD's and GG's on this (good or bad). I'm a big girl, I can take it if there is some disagreement on this. I'm still very new at this, so hearing all the different views is very helpful to me.

[Catherine in Colo]

SILK,

Thanks for the nice comments, and no, from my point of view, you didn't offend at all. While I did say that men have a freedom of expression that they didn't always enjoy, I think you make a very good point about the fact that there are still huge differences in this regard, and women still enjoy a far greater range when it comes to that than men.

I also agree we use clothing as an extension of our emotions, and women can use clothing as a tool in a way men still cannot. As you described, women can dress in a sterotypically "masculine" manner to enhance and project their feelings and emotions. Men have far less latitude in this regard, and you're right, women and men are still socialized to the effect that it's not usually ok for men to express themselves in the same way women do.

But, in the same way that a woman who dresses in a masculine manner is on some level seeking to channel some aspect of expression that is traditionally assoicated with men, a man who wears women clothing is trying to express himself as something other than the traditional stereotypical man. He may not be trying to be a woman, but he is trying to blur the line.

Lace and Tammy both commented on "dressing up" as being motivated, at least in part, by a desire to "feel pretty." I guess that is where the disconnect is...women are allowed to feel "grungy," and it's almost universally accepted, but we still have a long way to go before it's ok for a man to feel pretty, which is odd, because it's just a word that expresses an emotion.

While I still don't, and never will, buy into the simplistic argument that "men should be able to wear women's clothing because women can wear men's", I do think that at the core of that argument is a recognition of the fact that there is a less than rational nature to the issue behind it.

Renee

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Thank you very much for the responses Darla and Helena. I was so worried that I might have sound offensive.. even though I was in NO WAY going for that aspect.

No problem. Your comments actually reminded me of a story about when Jack Nicolson was playing the Joker in one of the Batman movies. The actor playing Batman kept pestering Nicholson, trying to figure out his motivation. Finally Nicholson just him: "Kid, sometimes you gotta let the costume do the acting."

Granted it's a chicken-and-egg situation, but I do think dressing the part often helps people (not just CDs) "feel the part" internally.

Now if you'll just promise to explain the secrets of competive dressing among women. My GG friends assure me there's a lot that most men are too uninterested in and too unobservant to notice.

To Renee's point about men not allowed to be pretty. While the metrosexual revolution has given more flexibility (and women are being more vocal about wanting a well-toned, well-dressed man), men still aren't allowed to consciously show off in the same way woman can. A guy in really tight pants, or shirt left partly unbuttoned is generally regarded as sleazy. (Of course, a woman who did the same thing risks being viewed as ****ty, but there's a lot more lattitude before crossing the line.)

[JoannaDees]

Sigh. Another one of these.

Once again. Most here are not just wearing women's clothes, but are pretending to be women. Maybe you feel like it inside, whatever. Women are just wearing clothes, comfortable and functional clothes.

A woman crossdresser is trying to be a man, like Abraxas. Don't you think he'd get looks at the mall? I've seen that, an obvious woman dressing as and intending to be perceived as a man.

[Catherine in Colo]

Joanna,

I don't mean to offend, but I think you're mistaken. While the origin of this thread and some of the subsequent posts do subscribe to the same old argument that tires most of us, I think you'll find that most of the posts here seek to dig deeper into the issue and understand why it is that we, as crossdressers, feel compelled to wear women's clothing.

I'm sure many are familiar with Siobhan Curran's weblog: http://www.tranniefesto.co.uk/2005/08/10/, but over the past week, she hosted a very interesting thread that suggested that part of the reason so many crossdressers, or "trannies" seek to look like woman is because that is far more acceptable than men who simply prefer to wear a skirt. Tammy touched on this issue, commenting that it's easier for her to go out in full regalia, including stuffed bra, etc...because that is what is expected of the "ideal trannie" that Siobhan refers to. It's like there is a heirarchy within the cd/tv/tg community, in which it’s not acceptable for a man to go out wearing clothes that are made for women. But if a man MUST go out wearing women’s clothing, he has to follow the rules and dress fully in his best attempt to appear as a women so as to not confuse the issue any further.

So, while many of us, myself included, really are seeking to present a feminine image, I don't think ALL crossdressers are truly attempting to look like women. Rather, they/we are simply taking the path of least resistance in an effort to meet our individual needs.

Renee

[Helana]

Good post Renee.

I for one dont find anything exciting about silicone breats for example, and would be perfectly happy appearing in public flat-chested. I only have them to complete the whole female image to blend in more so I dont have to constantly explain myself.

We are all programmed to look for stereotypical role models to copy and the CD community is not exempt. Personally I don't believe CDing is about trying to present ourselves as a real women, it is a role model we have deluded ourselves about for a long time. If you are a transexual or desire to go full time then you do need to learn everything about behaving and sounding like a real women. But for the rest of us, we should be happy just to express our femininity to whatever degree we feel most comfortable with.

I believe that most CDers are alot closer to ordinary women who like to wear masculine clothing than is apparent. But when we encouter the TG community we get bombarded with the concept that our goal is to pretend to be a real woman - which is attractive to us as we have all fantasied about this. There are all sorts of stories, gadgets, products and training DVDs all aimed at this imaginary goal.

This is one reason why CDing can be addiditive because it is fueled by fantasies. But fantasies are not representative of reality at all. In truth we just want to be able to express femininity, a right which has been denied to us.

We are different from women wearing masculine clothes as we have an inner desire which is absent in women, but the motivation to use clothes to project our feelings and gender positioning is the same for everyone.

[~Tammy~]

Well put Reene and Helana, thats exactly what I was attempting to say

Now I shall attempt something else!

I believe a scale can be used to view the develement of feminine/masculine traits as we grow and devlope. Of course the scale varies immensly depending on personal experiences but this is the way I see things.


Feminine ------------------- Birth -------------------- Masculine
-10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10

When a baby is first concieved they start off at '0' as it is not known what sex the baby will be. For this example, we will not determine what sex this baby will be until it is born.

Upon birth we then discover whether the baby is (physically) male or female and then the position on the scale changes dramtically. Probabaly the single biggest change in the whole of this persons life. If the baby is a girl we immediately envision a scene of soft, pink, delicate girlie things putting her at the -10 end of the scale. If it is a boy we think of tough, blue, rough and tumble things placing him at the +10 end. The babies are thought of differently and so raised in a certain way to conform to sociecties expectation of what a boy or girl should be wearing and doing.

At some point in this persons life whether male of female (for me it was aged 10), he/she starts moving towards the other end of the scale and this is where the problem for society starts.

For a girl to start doing masculine things it can be seen as a positive thing. Moving from -10 to 0. Where as a guy doing feminine things is commiting a negetive act by going backwards from +10 to 0.

While employement stereotypes have gradually merged over the years with women peforming previously masculine jobs like becoming mechanics, builders and high level management and men taking what was considered feminine roles such a nursing and hairdressing. When it comes to personal activities and dressing however woman are still ok to move towards the masculine end of the scale as it is still moving in a postive direction but again for men to move towards the feminine end it is negative.

Think of it this way, with an ever increasing number for women heading towards the masculine end of the scale, it leaves the minus section rather thin on the ground so I believe we are doing society a good thing by levelling out the scale or the planet would slip of the masculine end into total blokedom

[Clare]

Reene and Helana, you have both summed it up nicely!

I couldn't agree more with your comments and really, it does come down to what each individual person considers appropriate for them.

Within my closet (the house that is) i can be content with just a summer dress and no other femme atire.

If heading out the door to the big wide world, i would feel the need to completely 'transform' because in my opinion, if i'm accepted as a woman, then I'm not insulting the status of real ladies in society. In other words, i respect the equality that women have fought for and don't wish to embarrass them in public.

It's as simple as that!

Christine

[AngGG]

While I agree that some just like to wear womans clothes for some there is also a personality shift that I really do not see addressed here. If I am working around the house doing traditionally male things, its because it has to be done. My dh works very long hard hours sometimes 12-14 per day 6 days a week. So if a home repair needs to be done, and I can do it, I pull back my hair put on something comfortable, jeans, shorts, tee, ect and do it. I do not start adjusting myself, stop and take a beer break, whistle and cat call, (you get my point) which are all (unfortunately) what society deems as typically male behaviors.

When dh comes home from work and puts on a dress its not because he needs to clean the house, cook dinner or do laundry. She looks at things differently, mentally and physically. By that I mean the way she holds herself changes, like when standing her hip thrusts to the side a little more, she gives me coy looks, smiles a little different, and I get lots of attention and that is because she feels fem. That is not a bad thing because it makes her feel good.

Like the title says just playing devils advocate here. I also believe society as a whole is too uptight and should not impose their opinions and judgements on something that is not harming anyone.

Ang

[LaceLuvr's GG]

To Renee and Helena... Great posts. It's very hard for a GG to put into perspective why a man chooses to wear women's clothing. I try my best to guess.. but more than likely I'm wrong. It's great to be able to hear the thoughts and views of CDers, so it can help me grow and understand the CDing world better.

To Tammy... once again, thank you very much for helping put things in perspective. That's a very interesting, and I believe acurate way, of lining it all out. GREAT POST!!!!

[Helana]

Tammy

Great idea to lay things out graphically and I agree 100%.

Let me go off on a tangent here.

My thought is if most women are gravitating towards 0 while men remain resolutely stuck in the high +'s, then don't we end up with an imbalance in society? As you put it "total blokedom" is probably not a healthy thing, especially considering that most of the evils in this world are blamed on the male persona.

Its like there being only two choices of political parties - a centralist party and a right wing party. Without a strong left wing party as a counterbalance the country will inevitably become increasing right wing and radical (maybe this is already starting to happen in America?)

Society needs either an equal counterbalance of feminine women or it must allow men to also gravitate towards zero as well. Since society presently will not allow men that movement then it would be better if women were strong and confident in their femininity rather than be strong and confident by emulating masculinity.

I know I have overstated things here but it is interesting to observe how society and families have been breaking down in the last few decades. Women's roles have changed dramatically while men's roles have remained fairly static resulting in an imbalance which affects everyone.

The traditional male and female gender roles are artificial and made many people of both genders very unhappy so the best solution is not for women to return to their traditional roles but to allow men to move towards zero. Then everyone could be true to their own nature and not be forced to live a lie.

I guess that makes us CDers pioneers towards creating a happier and healthier society.

[Helana]

To Renee and Helena... Great posts. It's very hard for a GG to put into perspective why a man chooses to wear women's clothing. I try my best to guess.. but more than likely I'm wrong. It's great to be able to hear the thoughts and views of CDers, so it can help me grow and understand the CDing world better.

Thanks for the compliment Silk, and thanks for being so refreshingly honest.

There is nothing hard to understand why a man would choose to wear a dress if you can discard the social conditioning and myths which have been shaping all our views all of our lives, and just see things the way they actually are. The idea that men would not want to feel pretty about themselves is an artificial Western construct, and a fairly recent one at that.

Western society is very good at dressing things up to obscure the real truth. Our excess income and leisure time is put to use in creating smokescreens to hide uncomfortable truths about ourselves.

Take for example what attracts the opposite sex. Pick up a male or female lifestyle magazine and they will be listing things like eyes, smile, sense of humor, shared values etc. All of these are true in themselves so we feel comforted in knowing that we are all "deep" people choosing our partners for the right reasons.

Unfortunately all the scientific studies show the dominant reason women choose a man is because of his income/wealth, and the dominant reason men choose a woman is for a young, sexy body. Also the studies show ugly people marry ugly people, average looking people marry each other, and beautiful people marry each other. You dont find these facts in lifestyle magazines.

So what happened to love conquers all?, selecting our partners based on their personalities? Go outside Western societies and the real truth is still blatently obvious. Of course there are plenty of exceptions, but the vast majority do follow these basic elements of attraction even if they do not see it themselves.

Another classic is dieting. This is now a multi-trillion dollar industry which obscures a simple truth. People find it hard to lose weight because they do not stick to their diet/exercise routine. They cheat on themselves and then claim that dieting/exercise does not work for them. This defies the laws of physics, it is a very simple equation after all, calories in - calories out. :think:
What is lacking is willpower and admiting the truth to themselves.

Ok enough conjecture for today.