Admirers

[Deborah Jane]

Personally, I would rather have my bikini line shaved with a cheap, rusty Walmart razor than attend any event with lots and lots of CD's and TV's. I've been to the Pridefest in Key West, and once is enough. Like the Irish Rover, no, nay, never, no, nay, never, no more.

I'm surprised you even grace us with your presence on this forum considering your opinion of CD's and TV's. Or maybe you consider yourself above the rest of us here?

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Personally, I would rather have my bikini line shaved with a cheap, rusty Walmart razor than attend any event with lots and lots of CD's and TV's. I've been to the Pridefest in Key West, and once is enough. Like the Irish Rover, no, nay, never, no, nay, never, no more.

simply awful...shame on you ..trust me they don't want you there either.
+++++
btw ...i was catching up on this thread...it still bugs me that folks jump on the admirers are creepy bandwagon..its so hypocritical

what the heck does it mean to say admirers are only after one thing and when you are at a movie or museum or whereever guys come up and talk to you like "any" woman?

i have been hit on by crossdressers in a cheerleader outfit, chomping a cigar and wearing a bra on the outside...i didnt say those crossdressers sure are creepy, they only want one thing...(altho it was a sight to behold)...

i never went out for many years...the first time ever i went to a drag show, and quitely drank vodka's in my flannel shirt and philadelphia eagles hoodie...i was quaking in fear, confusion and shame the whole time...have a heart...most of these guys are just like me and you.

[Fab Karen]

Anyway, my point is, if he looks like Clooney, everything changes.

If wishes are being granted, can he look like Pierce Brosnan?

"Whatever gets ya through the night
it's alright, it's alright"
The wisdom of John Lennon

[docrobbysherry]

How many of you protesters would be adverse to being approached by another male period? With all of the "I am not gay" disclaimers floating around this site, it kind of makes me wonder if your so called straightness might make you think that people who might be open minded enough to want to have a relationship with a TG person....... to be creepy.
I have run into my share of strange people too, and believe it or not a lot of them have been crossdressers, as well as some other TS folks.
Seems a little odd to me that if someone doesn't like fish..why they would want to hang out at the fishmarket, and then complain about the smell.

I'm with Kelly! If you're CD/TG, and you're attracted to others like u, why would u think men who have the SAME attraction r ODD!?

Personally, I'm not attracted to males, regardless of how they're dressed! But, I get hit on A LOT at other sites!

Some of them r SO CUTE AND SWEET! I enjoy getting to know a few of them. But, only as a guy!

I simply block the gross ones! Why can't u all just do the SAME?

[ReineD]

Misty, do you think this description of admirers is accurate? Is it biased? The author is Alice Novic (Alice in Genderland). The entire site is an interesting read.

The quote below is from "Going on a Manhunt: The Two Types of Men Who Might Be Interested":

Each admirer is a bird unable to fly [refers to being a CD in denial]. Maybe he’s flown before? Maybe he’ll develop tail feathers of his own and shake them around in style in the future? But for now he’s limited by something. And that same thing that keeps him from being a terribly happening woman may be what’s keeping him from being an especially happening man.

That’s why admirers tend to be a heavier and older bunch of men. It would make sense if they were also taller, though I haven’t seen that near as much as I’d like. Some may have their wings clipped by lack of a steady job, car, or apartment. Many are married and unable to get out except under the rarest of circumstances. Some may be constrained by psychological baggage, religious guilt, or macho ethnic tradition.

...

Then you’ll want to watch out for him trying to make you a secret playmate that he never has to take out, or him paying too much attention to your original equipment and losing interest if you go for GRS. And then there’s the final risk of him being around a joyful, self-actualizing trans-person: he may want to blossom himself someday. Would you want him to dress up with you? Maybe you’d be okay if he did it quietly when you’re not around?

[Gretchenivy]

admirers, like the general population, come in all different, shapes, sizes, and personalities. there's a lot of diversity. and i enjoy diversity.

generally, the clubs i go to are open enough that the men generally aren't overly creepy. but, i have run into some pretty creepy ones. just like i run into some creepy dudes just about anywhere. men are often poorly dressed and often don't take care of themselves, and i'll probably always complain about that. yet, i find myself attracted to men nonetheless.

i agree that men should learn to shower more, smell better and take better care of themselves. would all stalkers pay as much attention to their grooming as us girls, it would be a kinder gentler club scene out there wouldn't it?

[Misty is Kindafem]

Misty, do you think this description of admirers is accurate? Is it biased? The author is Alice Novic (Alice in Genderland).

Hmmm, far be it from me too disagree with such an esteemed personality, but I'm afraid I have to.

It would seem that the general consensus is "admirers" are not to be trusted for one reason or another. I can honestly say that it has not been my experience, and maybe that's where my sticking point is. Unlike some others, I can only speak from my own real life experience. Let's discuss;

I've dated maybe half a dozen guys over the last year or so as Misty. Made out with four of them and slept with two of them. The others didn't get more than a hug. Some of you may be mortified at my promiscuity while others may be amused by my slow dating life. At any rate, that's my sample. Out of all of them, one was kinda chubby, one was kinda fat and the others were in pretty good shape. They were split down the middle personality wise, half were interesting and dynamic and the other half wasn't. None of them claimed to be married. None of them admitted to being CD's in the past or present. The only thing they all had in common was an apparent attraction to me

That's my experience in real life. Now I should admit that I occasionally fire up the webcam and chat with people on AFF so I've met a LOT of men online and I would say a good half of them seem to match Ms Novic's characterization. A lot of them are married, a lot of them are closet CD's and a lot of them are pretty damn creepy. The interesting thing is, most FAB women could say the exact same thing about men they meet in chatrooms.

Which kinda gives credence to my argument that being an admirer isn't creepy, being creepy is what's creepy.

-Misty

[ReineD]

Yeah, but look at where you live! Walnut Creek is a pretty nice place. I've been there. Isn't SF one of the alternative lifestyle capitals in the US?

I'm in Small Town Midwest. My SO and I go to LGBT night clubs when she is dressed in town, or in a city two hours away, or in one of two mid-sized towns 1 hour away. We've been to only a few places were mostly TGs hangout (with a long line of admirers sitting at the bar eyeing everyone up and down when you come in). Now THAT was creepy to me. And obviously to my SO as well, since she never brought me back. lol. I did have a good time there though, the show was fantastic.

At any rate, the other TG hangout we were at was pretty seedy. We received a crude invitation on a napkin. In my naivete at the time, I thought it was addressed to both of us!

Although my exposure to admirers is limited, I have to agree with Sarah that the creep factor at the TG bars is pretty high, compared to the men I've seen in the GLBT, mainstream, or alternative bars.

[Blaire]

I think I've done gone and broken one of my own rules here... Are we talking admirer "a" or admirer "the"? Makes a difference in my mind, same as TV vs CD makes a difference in some others. Can someone pass the salt for my crow, please?

My only real issue with the "admirers" is with the what I believe to be a much larger than normal fraction of guys that think the opening line along the likes of "What room in what hotel are you staying at?" is cool. That's the type that comes to my mind when someone says admirer or chaser, not the guy from the Clooney scenario - regardless of what he looks like.

[kellycan27]

So Reine.. Might have you considered them creepy because you and your SO are not into that scene? If you were approached couldn't the reason have been that........... it's hard to tell the players without a program? I don't go to gay bars because they don't appeal to me, nor to TG venues for much the same reason. If you are in the other person's backyard... wouldn't it stand to reason that they might think that you are game? Just curious.
Kel

[lawnmanmo]

I agree. So the hets think it's creepy that there are men who like trannies? So what? I think it's creepy that a man would dress up like a french maid while loudly proclaiming that he is "all man". We're a creepy bunch folks. What we do is NOT normal as far as mainstream society is concerned. So save your sanctimonious attitudes for Sunday.

If you're a T-girl who enjoys the company of men than I've got news for ya; The Admirers are your only option. The average straight guy does not want to encounter your penis, no matter how hot you may be. Now before I get hammered, I said AVERAGE. I am willing to recognize those rare souls that are able to transcend the body for the sake of love, if you are willing to recognize that exception as a rarity.

There are perfectly good men out there who for whatever reason, prefer T-girls over real girls. Are they deeply closeted homosexuals? Are they frustrated trannies? Are they politicians?

They are just men who are attracted to what they are attracted to. Sure, some of them can be creepy but if I were being honest, I would have to say that there are more than a few gurls on this very site who creep me out as much or more than the creepiest "chaser" I've ever met. Some of you should read your posts a couple of times before you click Submit.

So the "admirers" are just objectifying me? So what? Women have been objectified sexually since the first other woman. If a man looks at me with desire does that mean there is something wrong with him? Excuse me? Am I not allowed to be desired?

The very idea that there is something wrong with a group of men who prefer T-girls is the reason they exist in the first place.

Okay, that's a little deep, but follow me; If the world were a more accepting place and people weren't held to such rigid sexual standards then there would be no need for labels. A man could date a TG or a GG and there would be no raised eyebrows. He's just a man who likes a certain look or type and that's the end of it. Imagine living in a world where you could just date someone who you found attractive and interesting, and the sexuality would be determined by that relationship, rather than by society. There would be no need for chasers in a world like that.

Back to reality, and reality sucks, because any man who has a preference for T-girls is automatically labeled a "chaser" and by definition must be creepy and predatory. That's not fair and frankly some of you girls may need to take a broom to your own doorsteps before you start with the judging.

You know, as a group we are by and large just as intolerant as the straight world and I can't decide if that's disappointing or comforting.

-Misty

Dear Misty
Thank you for the well said defense of admirer's. I am one of these so called admirer's. In many ways, I HATE that word and description. I for one do NOT stand and gwak or stare at CD women for the sake of playing with their heads. I am NOT a nut job or a creep. I have had this strang desire to be with passable CD's for as long as I can remember. And yes, I do consider myself BI. I am also NOT a latent secret CD. It seems that you CDs who are also doing what society deems as "sick or unnatural" should think a lot about what you feel is creepy. As Misty said, a lot of you girls who DO prefer being with a man, if it were not for the admirer, who in his right mind would treat you like the women you want to be. Sex is not always on the top of my list especially today when one has to be very careful. Just to enjoy the company of a CD and enjoy the common love for a lifestyle that most of the straight world consider taboo is a thrill in itself. I have been on many outtings with CD friends and they were always very enjoyable and exciting experiences. You ladies forget that when you get all dolled up and want to play the role of a women that you WILL attract that kind of man that enjoys a women like you. Its like lighting the candle only to attract the butterfly. Before you start judging, just think before you label a man as creepy, sick, or a predator. I have been on the forum for many years now and never once have I disrespected ANYONE. Im sure that there are many girls here who can vouch for me. Again, THINK before you make stupid comments that are meaningless and again, thank you Misty.
Jerry

[ReineD]

Kelly,

But I AM into that scene, or as much as I can be as a GG. I felt perfectly comfortable there. The show was great, the CDs we were sitting with were fun. And I wouldn't have minded the long line of guys at the bar if they looked like they had a life. You know, if they were talking, joking, laughing among themselves or with other patrons in the same way that most people people act in bars and clubs. But these guys were so silent and obtrusive with their stares. There was a definite 'meat market' flavor to them. Way more pronounced than other places I've been to.

And their physical appearance was pretty much how Sarah and Alice Novic described. Honestly, at the time I had never heard of the term "admirer", nor was I aware of their prevalence, so there was no preconceived bias. But there was most definitely something about this group of men that was, um, different.

Now to be fair, one nice thing that can be said is they don't hide their motives. It is perfectly obvious what they want and there's something to be said about their honesty. But IMO it wouldn't hurt to throw in a little couth. Also, and again to be fair, they are not after GGs so maybe they don't see the need for decorum. The objects of their desire speak their same language (same birth gender) and maybe there is no need for any artifice? (Edited to add that men's behaviors among themselves is different than when GGs are present. So the GGs who witness this are not accustomed to the rawness).

On a different note, I asked a question up above but it might have got lost ... does anyone know if the admirers we are describing would be interested in post-op TSs?

EDIT Lawmanpro, you posted while I was composing this. You will probably find my post offensive, and I do apologize. But I am describing a distinct experiences that I had and this certainly does not reflect on you.

[Misty is Kindafem]

(Edited to add that men's behaviors among themselves is different than when GGs are present. So the GGs who witness this are not accustomed to the rawness).

You know what Reine? I think you may be on to something here.

It's quite possible that my "creep" threshold is a little higher than a real woman's. Gurls like me have grown up in the company of men. We've been behind enemy lines as it were for most of our lives. We have intimate knowledge of how men act with other men and how they act with women. (By the way ladies with straight husbands; he doesn't really think those Girls Gone Wild videos are stupid or shameful).

Women have a calming and civilizing effect on most men so I guess it stands to reason that you don't have first hand knowledge of how brutish and disgusting they can be. Any man who argues with me is frankly just putting on a show for somebody. I've spent my entire life desperately trying to be manly and fit in, so like many gurls here, my perspective is both inside and outside.

Now before anyone gets fired up, I'm NOT attacking men. I love men, but they are extremely coarse compared to women in almost every aspect, especially regarding sex. I'm not just talking about dirty words or even forthrightness. I'm talking about a kind of emotional detachment. Men will learn to get right to the point if they're allowed. Want proof? Look at the average gay lifestyle. Gay men, especially closeted gay men will "cruise" for sex anywhere other gay men congregate. I've seen stuff that I couldn't believe and I'm on the outer fringes of that lifestyle at best. Seriously, they pick each other up in bathrooms, parks, wherever. There are websites that list and rate cruising spots according to how fast you can get lucky. These are facts kids and I'm not knocking it. Like I said before, to each his own, I'm just trying to illustrate what happens when women aren't around to say no.

What does a gay man bring on a first date? A condom.
What does a gay woman bring on a first date? A suitcase.

That is one of the oldest jokes in the book and I think it makes my point.

Maybe the FAB's are more sensitive to the creepiness because they're just not used to it. Hell, they won't allow it. The average TG on the other hand is well acquainted with crude, rude and socially unacceptable behavior. I mean come on, if I see a girl I know and say hi, one of my "guy" buddies will immediately ask "you hittin' that?" I'll say no and then they'll say "mind if I do?". I think women in general would be horrified at the level of objectification if they only knew. In the defense of men, most of them don't really mean to be pigs, they're just playing around but that's indeed how they've been raised. Boys will be boys.

Please ladies, don't try to argue with me about this and say your man is different. He isn't. I'm not saying men are bad, I'm just saying boys are made out of snips and snails and puppy dog tails. I didn't make that up either.

Men can be great but they can also approach sexual conquest with an almost frightening single-mindedness. What GG can disagree with that?

-Misty

[Vickie_CDTV]

I have to confess I don't understand the whole male admirer thing.

However, I can see why a TG who is straight (attracted to GGs) might be interested in a relationship with another TG, especially a TV-TS relationship. The TV may be unable to find a GG who is accepting, and find being with another TS (especially post-op with the anatomy they desire) more practical. The TV does not have to explain the dressing, or going around hiding their dressing. The TS has a man who understands her background and does not have to fear being discovered or explaining her past. Both could be completely honest with each other without fear or misunderstanding. It makes sense from this perspective at least.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Reine...to your specific question...i have dated with my thingie and I am having srs in 4 weeks....i stopped going out because i want to feel like myself out there, and i can't wait to move on with my life...

anyway, i told the last guy i dated and he was not happy and asked how many times i could see him before my surgery, and also claims he is NOT gay...i don't find him creepy at all...just closeted and quite easy on the eyes. i doubt he will be interested in the future..


Dr Novic describes me 15 years ago, and she no doubt describes some of the guys..it didnt take me a relationship to figure it out, but it did take me going out as a guy to trans events...as a tg woman , i have been chatted up by guys that later pull out the dressing pics and claim they tried it "just for fun"..i always encourage them to do what feels right and i'm happy to help them get their cd freak on..i have chosen not to pursue a date with them though once i find that out.

however, the guys i've actually dated have not been interested in any way in their own femininity..and if they are hiding anything, its their own homosexuality, and that's fine with me.

i burst out laughing this morning at what is being discussed in the last couple of posts...its really interesting ..

misty you are gonna get the guys pissed spilling all the dirty laundry..

maybe in the end, its just semantics..
maybe the term "admirers" is a pejorative term like some of the things we are called...its certainly used that way here


and btw
Hi Jerry !! you are a sweetheart!

[ReineD]

Women have a calming and civilizing effect on most men so I guess it stands to reason that you don't have first hand knowledge of how brutish and disgusting they can be.

...

Maybe the FAB's are more sensitive to the creepiness because they're just not used to it. Hell, they won't allow it. The average TG on the other hand is well acquainted with crude, rude and socially unacceptable behavior. I mean come on, if I see a girl I know and say hi, one of my "guy" buddies will immediately ask "you hittin' that?" I'll say no and then they'll say "mind if I do?". I think women in general would be horrified at the level of objectification if they only knew. In the defense of men, most of them don't really mean to be pigs, they're just playing around but that's indeed how they've been raised. Boys will be boys.

I think we've reached a consensus. And you're not describing something that I and other GGs are not aware of. We KNOW that men behave differently when we aren't there. It's just that they seldom allow us to see it .... thankfully.

misty you are gonna get the guys pissed spilling all the dirty laundry..

Naaaaaaw! We're all about being an open and honest forum in the interest of promoting mutual understanding, aren't we? But thanks for your response about your guy friend who would no longer be interested in you after SRS. It does fit the M.O. I hope that you will find someone wonderful post-op!!



Sarah, I'm sorry for taking the discussion off on a tangent away from your initial topic But I do agree with you that it would be a shame if the flavor of Magic Theater UK changed to become more of a TG/admirer meet-up thing. As you say, I don't think the admirers are there to partake in the fun and spirit of things but rather to see who they can bag.

[tamarav]

[SIZE=4]After reading 4 pages of posts I had to go back to the original post to recall what the question or concern was. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]I agree![/SIZE]

[ReineD]

Yeah, I know Tam. Threads do take on a life of their own once they reach the discussion stage, especially if they are more than a few pages.

[lawnmanmo]

Reine...to your specific question...i have dated with my thingie and I am having srs in 4 weeks....i stopped going out because i want to feel like myself out there, and i can't wait to move on with my life...

anyway, i told the last guy i dated and he was not happy and asked how many times i could see him before my surgery, and also claims he is NOT gay...i don't find him creepy at all...just closeted and quite easy on the eyes. i doubt he will be interested in the future..


Dr Novic describes me 15 years ago, and she no doubt describes some of the guys..it didnt take me a relationship to figure it out, but it did take me going out as a guy to trans events...as a tg woman , i have been chatted up by guys that later pull out the dressing pics and claim they tried it "just for fun"..i always encourage them to do what feels right and i'm happy to help them get their cd freak on..i have chosen not to pursue a date with them though once i find that out.

however, the guys i've actually dated have not been interested in any way in their own femininity..and if they are hiding anything, its their own homosexuality, and that's fine with me.

i burst out laughing this morning at what is being discussed in the last couple of posts...its really interesting ..

misty you are gonna get the guys pissed spilling all the dirty laundry..

maybe in the end, its just semantics..
maybe the term "admirers" is a pejorative term like some of the things we are called...its certainly used that way here


and btw
Hi Jerry !! you are a sweetheart!

Thank you Kaitlyn. You are a beautiful women and a beautiful PERSON.
Jerry

[Fab Karen]

But IMO it wouldn't hurt to throw in a little couth. Also, and again to be fair, they are not after GGs so maybe they don't see the need for decorum. The objects of their desire speak their same language (same birth gender) and maybe there is no need for any artifice? (Edited to add that men's behaviors among themselves is different than when GGs are present. So the GGs who witness this are not accustomed to the rawness).

On a different note, I asked a question up above but it might have got lost ... does anyone know if the admirers we are describing would be interested in post-op TSs?

The admirers you are describing- the creepy guys, or admirers in general? In general, some aren't, some definitely are.
Remember what I've said before? All CD's are not alike, all GG's are not alike, all admirers, all black people...name a category. The jokes exist because there's a GRAIN of truth- a percentage of the group being discussed may be like that, but many in that category won't be. For example, gay males, that stuff goes on to an extent, but it's not definitive, all are not just out for quick sex action. I lived a fair number of years in that world before accepting my dressing ( & gaining greater insight into who I am ) so I know first-hand.

There are blatantly crude admirers, and there are respectful gentlemen who talk to you just as they'd talk with a GG. Just as with guys talking to a GG, some may hope for casual sex, some may be interested in friendship, some may be interested in finding a relationship. GG's know this/learn this, so can we.

[StarrOfDelite]

simply awful...shame on you ..trust me they don't want you there either.
+++++
btw ...i was catching up on this thread...it still bugs me that folks jump on the admirers are creepy bandwagon..its so hypocritical

what the heck does it mean to say admirers are only after one thing and when you are at a movie or museum or whereever guys come up and talk to you like "any" woman?

i have been hit on by crossdressers in a cheerleader outfit, chomping a cigar and wearing a bra on the outside...i didnt say those crossdressers sure are creepy, they only want one thing...(altho it was a sight to behold)...

i never went out for many years...the first time ever i went to a drag show, and quitely drank vodka's in my flannel shirt and philadelphia eagles hoodie...i was quaking in fear, confusion and shame the whole time...have a heart...most of these guys are just like me and you.

I think you missed my point. If a CD/TV/TS doesn't want to get propositioned by people whom she sees as low-life creeps, which was iirc the complaint which started this whole thread, then why does she persist in going to events, clubs or venues which attract a lot of CD/TV/TS people, and therefore a lot of Admirers?

I don't like crowds and parades and generalized lewd behavior, which seemed to me to be the chief raison d'etre for the Key West event. Maybe your experience was different.

[Sheila]

If a CD/TV/TS doesn't want to get propositioned by people whom she sees as low-life creeps, which was iirc the complaint which started this whole thread, then why does she persist in going to events, clubs or venues which attract a lot of CD/TV/TS people, and therefore a lot of Admirers?

FYI the OP is the SO of a TG and the event in question was not a seedy night club, back street bar, but

billed as a sort of burlesque, dress to fulfill your own fantasy (as long as it doesn't involve nudity or cause offence) so the majority of people have great fun getting involved in fantasy burlesque dressing

Her and her TG regularly attend such events together, she stated it was spoiled for them by

The 'tranny chasers' don't. They come wearing anoraks and grubby sweaters and don't dance. They just (I'm aware this is a sweeping generalisation) seem to leer.

[TxKimberly]

. . . I'm with Kelly! If you're CD/TG, and you're attracted to others like u, why would u think men who have the SAME attraction r ODD!? . . .

Whoa there Doc! I can't speak for anyone else here that said admirers were creepy, but I don't think they are odd because they like TG's. I think they are odd based on the fact that the majority of them I've encountered have ACTED creepy.

I think it was a valid point that some of you brought up concerning the way your sexual orientation will obviously affect or color your perception of someone who is sexually interested in you, but I'm fairly sure that my being hetro has nothing to do with my opinion. I honestly don't mind a guy hitting on me if he is polite - that doesn't bug me. If anything, it's kind of affirming. Having some creep staring at me for hours on the other hand is a whole different ball of wax.