Terminology - TG and TS ARE NOT THE SAME THING

[Super Amanda]

I just posted a comment about this, but I think it deserves a thread.

*Transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from the usual gender roles.*

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender *


So pretty much everyone on this site except for SOs and admirers are transgendered, why is that so hard for some to accept?

I don't care what anyone self identifies as, I'm talking about the definition of transgendered.

I care because being a full time transsexual woman I deal with people all the time now who are very misinformed about transgendered people, and I feel like if we can't get our terms straight, how do we expect the public to? I don't care what country you're from either, when I say "homosexual", we ALL know what that is and "transgender" needs to be at that point.

I feel like many people who identify as crossdressers think there is some stigma attached to the word transgender , maybe it sounds too much like transvestite? But way more than once I've read threads here where a crossdresser says something along "I'm not a transgender, I just like to dress up" Sorry dude, but yes, you are.

I know people are gong to tell me "You can't tell me what I am" and to that I say I calls it like I sees it, meaning that every person in this world, like it or not has a label attached to them, be it "christian", "white", "single" , "brunette", "fat", etc, all labels, all true of the individuals. It's human nature to give something a name.

Here's to unity!

[kellycan27]

I am only transgendered on these boards.. to the public.. I am a woman. That's all they need to know about me. thank you very much.

Kel

[Sammy777]

I don't care what anyone self identifies as,
I'm talking about the definition of transgendered.

I care because being a full time transsexual woman I deal with people all the time now

every person in this world,
like it or not has a label attached to them.

It's human nature to give something a name.

Pardon my bluntness.
But WTF does it matter that much to you what someone ELSE cares to call THEM SELF?

So a CD'er wants to be called a TG instead.
Another CD'er doesn't like being called TG.
Drag queens don't like being called CD or TG.
"Straight" guys who have sex with men don't want to be called Gay.
I can go on, but you get the point [I hope].

I could give a rats ass what someone wants to call themselves.
Just don't call me late for dinner.

Is a Turtle still a Turtle if someone calls it a Tortoise?

Ya, EVERYBODY has a label, and 99.999% of the time is was given to them by someone else!

How did you deal with people BEFORE you were an out TS?

Personally, I do not use the term TG,
Hell I don't even like the term TS most days.
TS [for now] does get the point across when I need it to though.

Call me crazy, But the only "labels" I am interested in are:
Ma'am, Miss, lady, girl, girlfriend and maybe someday if I'm lucky - Wife.

You want to stand up on a podium and preach to the unlistening, unlearning, uncaring masses then go right ahead. I won't stop you.

Just don't try calling me up to the mic because I will be to busy getting on with and living my life as nothing more then another woman in the crowd.

[Sheila]

I think Amandas point is not so much for the individuals understanding, but more for community awareness in the wider world ......... & I do see her point

Is a Turtle still a Turtle if someone calls it a Tortoise?

sure it is, & the tortoise still remains a tortoise, however one would treat each differently, Amanda is TS therfore ma'am, miss and maybe one day Mrs is appropriate for her along with the TG label (at the moment) .......... a part time CDER who is not TS would not like to be called Ma'am, miss, Mrs when in drab mode.

As she said she does not care what each individual SELF identifies as, but she made the point about the definition of Transgenderism and it's meaning

[Sammy777]

Amanda is TS therfore ma'am, miss and maybe one day Mrs is appropriate for her along with the TG label (at the moment)

As she said she does not care what each individual SELF identifies as, but she made the point about the definition of Transgenderism and it's meaning

I never said Amanda wasn't a TS,
nor somehow not deserving of the titles Ms or Mrs.

However - you can not have one without the other.
You can not say you do not care what someone labels themselves and then go on to say people need to address and adhere better to the definition of a certain label.

Either you care about "the labels" and what they mean.
Or you care about "the people" and what they want/get out of it.
You can't worry about and care for both at the same time.

That is what I am saying.

[Sheila]

Sammy I know you didn't

but I think she is saying she cares about both the individual right to self identification and the label that society will view us all by ....... I am many labels daughter, wife, mother, woman, ex nurse, etc etc, but also female.

one of my exes was dad, uncle, brother, husband, farmer man etc & male

both of us humans ............. labels help people get an overall view of not just people but the groups/societies we belong to in life, so the easier & better the overall picture by definition of us by one word the better for us all ......... if we can have a positive image being portrayed in one word surely that makes life better for everyone & helps dispel some of the images of our community by the negative ones

[subaru_forster]

Super Amanda,

Though I understand the purpose of having a common terminology, I don't believe that you got the terminology correct yourself.

You quote from wikipedia that it involves a "variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups" that deviate from gender roles, but that does not mean ALL groups. In fact, on the wikipedia article you cited, "Transgender is the state of one's 'gender identity' (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both)"

By this, the "self definition" you were quick to dismiss is truly the main relevant cornerstone. There is a meaningful difference between someone who just dresses up once in a while for fun and someone who does it just to feel "normal". The term "Transgendered" is most commonly used to refer to the latter.

The example you gave of someone who "just likes to dress up" is not transgendered, because this person, even when dressed up, still feels like his birth sex at the core of his being.

I feel that self-identification of what gender one truly feels that they are, or where on the spectrum they might lie is very important in the issue. Using language to throw away this distinction rather than to clarify it is destructive.

[Tracy_Victoria]

There are many Labels for what we do, ie is there a difference between a crossdresser, and a Transvestite. in the dictionary there is not a lot of difference, yet I prefer to be called a crossdresser over a transvestite.

ie

Transvestite really means to transpose clothes to that of the oposit gender.

Transgender, means to appear as a member of the opposite gender.

Transsexual mean to have a desire to be the opposite gender.

therefore, Crossdresser, Transvestite, and Transgender all really mean much the same thing and only transsexual means a desire to actually change totally.

Well thats my understanding of it.

[Jonianne]

Also, words will have different meanings depending on the context. Transgender is like the word Yankee. Outside of the US, everyone from the US is called a Yankee. Within the US, don't dare call someone from the south a Yankee.

It's the same with Transgender. Outside the community we are all transgender, because we like to dress and/or live in the opposite birth gender, for whatever reason. Within the community it tends to have a more narrow meaning - someone who crossdresses because they want to identify "as" or "with" the opposite sex.

[t-girlxsophie]

since I began dressing I have described myself as a Transvestite without any problem,only since coming on here,and similar sites have I been confronted by scores of ppl saying OMG thats wrong,well im sorry being defined as TV doesn't make me any less worthy than being defined as Crossdresser.I would suggest that the majority on here clearly know which label to attach to one another.we all know who is TS,and we all know the courage they possess to pursue their true self and we ALL respect and admire them for that but im afraid the non CDing world are not of a mind generally to give a rats **** what we call each other,to think any different is deluding ourselves.As a community whether TV,CD,TS etc we should be a strong,together community isn't that what we should all strive for

[tamarav]

[SIZE=4]In the past few years of dressing for work and interacting with all types of people, I have yet to have someone ask me outright "what" I was. Sometimes I think we work hard to think up a descriptive name or label when we really just have to be ourselves. Enjoy what you are, ignore what others may think or say. Getting your blood pressure up over the acts of others isn't worth it.[/SIZE]

[Kate Simmons]

I use titles and labels as points of reference only. The point is usually missed, however, when we think of someone as anything other than the unique individual that they are. The intentions rather than the facts are what are most often misunderstood.

[NiCo]

I am male before TG or TS. I am a human before male, TG or TS. I am equal regardless of what label or gender. That is all people have to know. The end.

[Billijo49504]

I classify my self as HUMAN, that's all. And trying to just live my life...BJ

[Raine]

I use to try to explain androgyny with being transgender, but many people unfamiliar with the term believe it is synonymous with transsexual.

However, although crossdressing implies transgender behaviour, identifying as a crossdresser does not imply transgender identity. Telling a crossdresser they are transgender is incorrect, under the implied context of identity. Telling a crossdresser they take part in transgender behaviour is correct. The nuance here is that crossdressers are transgender but do not always identify as such. If that's not confusing to a normal person, I don't know what is.

The general way transgender was defined makes it extremely difficult to use concisely, especially around such a sensitive topic. It's best left as an unspoken truth in favour of more concise word choice like transgender identity, as it is most often used, opposed to just transgender.

[BRANDYJ]

I don't understand why anyone is getting their panties in a wad over this simple topic. Correct definitions are important. I am a male, I am a CD, OK, call me a TV if you like, but I don't like the term. I am TG, but I am not TS. In some threads that fact is important to know so that others know where I'm coming from in a given situation. Some call themselves sissy, I hate that term and would get mad if anyone called me that. My SO is dominant, but she hates the term Mistress (so do I) So we prefer not to use that term. But I am not going to get my panties in a wad when someone tries to explain or correct the proper terminology.
For those that are TS and want to be called miss, ma'am, she, her etc. I get that and respect it and would only address them as they choose to be addressed. If I slip up and call someone something they do not like or feel is incorrect, please correct me and I would apologize and address you as you wish.
What's the big deal in trying to get terminology uniform and correct?

I live a Dominant/submissive lifestyle with my SO. Unfortunately, that lifestyle is under the broad term of BDSM. Damn, I hate that! It gives off what to me are bad connotations as to what sort of lifestyle I live. Never mind some of the far out (and to me, sick) stuff that is considered part of what people view BDSM to be.
So there is a need to understand the differences. And to do it without being rude or condescending to those that might ask or point out those differences.
Can't we all just get along?

[Kirra_Moon]

Drama! (I like drama, sometimes.)

It is my belief that is impossible to escape labels. Words/labels for the most part are symbols that refer to objects, ideas, etc. As a result, our understanding requires us to “label”. To those outside of the community transgender is a good catch-all word. But inside of the community a more precise “label” is generally used and should just be accepted. That does include the human race phrase. I just call people by whatever they want to be called.

To root to the problem is that some people have their own special connotations for the “lables” that refer to our community.

[NiCo]

Can't we all just get along?

Cup of tea?

[BRANDYJ]

Cup of tea?

But of course! Thank you.

[Traci Elizabeth]

Just call me "gal/woman/female." I doubt that the everyday person walking down the street has even heard of the word "Transgender." And if they have, for the most part I am sure it just went right by them.

[Sara Jessica]

There are a lot of themes here that I have expressed before, particularly the OP's comment that it is human nature to apply labels. I totally agree.

And at the same time, I understand some people's aversion to labeling. If that is one's sentiment, so be it. You'll never see me trying to apply a label to them.

To the general public, when we are out presenting as female, we don't have tags which say "cd/tv/tg/ts/whatever" (eliminating those from the mix who are lucky enough to simply be perceived as women). So people will come to their own conclusions, more often than not without any further input from the person who is being "labeled".

As for myself, I do not shy away from the label thing provided people get it right and that's where in conversation I might explain the differences between the various better-known labels and my place among them. It leads to better understanding and in my situation, my place in the wider tg world.

[kellycan27]

I care because being a full time transsexual woman I deal with people all the time now who are very misinformed about transgendered people, and I feel like if we can't get our terms straight, how do we expect the public to?

Amanda
I agree with you for the most part, and as some others have said labels have their place inside our community for the simple fact that it's always a good thing to know where someone else is coming from.
As far as labels and the trying to help the general public "understand" us, here are my thoughts and experience.
I have been out in the mainstream, living,working and playing,24/7, 365 days for close to eight years now. What I have discovered is that the people who garner anything from being educated are the same people that really don't care in the first place.. it's no big deal, they have better things to do than worry about us and what we do. Even if they just don't get the the whole concept....its no big deal. Live and let live. Reaching the the others is a bit more problematic in as much as educating goes. This people are generally of a mind set that says this is wrong and I seriously doubt that educating them is going to make them suddenly come to the realization that hey! these people are OK by me. One or two maybe, which is not a bad thing, but i don't think that we are going to reach these people for the most part.
Educating the public is a nice notion, but IMHO opinion the only way that we are going to have our place in society is by sheer force. We need to be out there right in their faces.. up close and personal. I don't mean that we have to beat them over the head with a sign, but rather show them by example. I really believe that because our TG community is so diverse that it's going to be harder for us to put together a consorted effort to educate the masses.
Just look at this group.. we are arguing amongst ourselves about how we want to be addressed.
The time has come for me personally to put away the label and try and enjoy my life just as everyone else has the right to do. That isn't to say that I wouldn't come to the aid of another member of our community, but as far a John Q.. I am here to stay and if they don't understand or don't like it.. they can pretty much KMA. I don't need to explain or justify my existence, and I refuse to do so.

kel

[carolinoakland]

" All poodles are dogs, but not all dogs are poodles."

@ Kelly, I agree honey. Most people I've dealt with, and I deal with professionals from all over the world. They couldn't care less about what it is I'm doing with my life, as long as I do the job I'm there to do. And yes, I realize that while I do a lot of trans community work, I know that the best thing I can do for the public's perception and the trans community of what it is to be trans is to live my life. We need all the positive role models of TS's living the lives they should have had, we're women. And men. Carol

[TxKimberly]

I think that a lot of you are missing the point.

Amanda has provided the formal definition of the word "Transgender". You may choose to use that term or you may not - that's entirely up to you. Amanda has only sought to make sure that we know it's definition and frankly I applaud her for it, given how many posts I've seen that made it clear that the poster had no clue what it meant.

[Lorileah]

Labels are not important. Well except when they are needed to define something. In this case the term Transgendered needs to be defined and who it encompasses is important even if we do not like it. Let's put it into say a bill, like...oh I don't know...let's just call it ENDA for fun. If you write the bill to say it will prevent discrimination for transgendered individuals and then define TG as encompassing Transsexuals (who would have a definition) Gender Dysphoric people (another subset with its own definition) and so on and so on it makes it a lot harder for someone to line out certain subsets. If not as an umbrella term then the bill could pass for only drag queens let's say. Why? Because the people supporting the bill are afraid of transsexuals and crossdressers (who tend to hang out where they don't want them to) but DQ's because they are on stage and aren't really gender questioning but entertainers. See?

OK we don't like labels. I don't like labels in any day to day activity for the most part, but they do serve a purpose. We need to communicate with people every day. We all accept the word "human" as a set standard. There are subsets under that where people define themselves even more but as an umbrella term we are human. This is how we communicate to others. Say "dog" and people see in their minds a certain dog. Maybe the one they had when they were young. But under dog we can say German Shepherd and that makes it more specific. Does this make sense?

This subject is posted about every month I think. It always leads to "Don't call me Shirley" by someone who takes offense because they don't want to be put in a box. OK We get it. Sorry if we stepped on your toes. It always seems to be taken as someone poking a stick into a den of vipers (which are in fact a subset of snakes which is a subset of reptiles....But you immediately saw in your mind a viper not a Bull snake. Point made?)