We've got a long way to go, baby (or NO, you can't try that on)

[ReineD]

Sara, I'd like to propose a different scenario.

When you first asked if you could try on the outfit, the SA likely had NO IDEA that you are TG. You were in guy mode and you hadn't yet showed her your pictures. I know it seems like a no brainer to those of us who hang out here all the time, but believe it or not, most people don't automatically think "TG" when presented with a male who wants to go into the ladies rooms. What comes to mind instead, is the ubiquitous fear that most females experience around potentially unsafe situations involving men, the same fear that makes a woman uneasy about walking out alone at night. Trust me on this. The fear is real, and it is there because of centuries of men having had the upper hand on women physically, psychologically, and legally.

Also, here are some rape statistics: http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

91% of victims are female, 9% are male, with 99% of rapists being male. There are good reasons for women feeling uneasy about having men around when they are undressing. And how many times have there been comments in this very forum from CDs saying they don't like being around men because most of them are pigs disrespect women? And again, most female customers would not immediately consider that the male in the dressing rooms is TG and therefore is not a physical threat.

When the SA realized that you did have a legit reason to use the rooms, she offered you the opportunity. It would have been nice of you to take advantage of it. Maybe next time, you could explain that you are TG and show her the pics before asking to try on an outfit.

So if GG's feel entitled to enter my world when it comes to using men's fitting rooms, I now use women's fitting rooms with the same sense of entitlement

I seriously doubt that most women would feel comfortable entering men's changing areas. I've shopped for clothing with my sons for years, and I waited outside for them to come out and show me how the clothes fit. I've seen other women wait outside too. I've also seen women bring male clothing in the women's rooms on very rare occasions. And besides, women haven't historically been a physical threat to men like the reverse, so on the off chance a woman should walk into the male dressing room, I seriously doubt the male would fear for his safety.

FtM crossdressers are accepted without much to do about it..

Liz ... you could not be more wrong about this. Have you read all the threads in the F2M forum here? It's not a picnic for them either.

[BRANDYJ]

Reine, once agian, you make a whole lotta sense.

[Danni Bear]

Reine,
although not a F.A.B. I am a woman and I won't even let my husband(f2mts post-op) in the dressing room. It just doesn't feel right, and I wouldn't even think about accompying him to a mens dressing room. He can just come out and show me. Just my own worth.

Danni

[kellycan27]

In Canada at least, that's the wrong answer. If the dressing rooms are not a common area where women would routinely expect the possibility of seeing each other undressed, then under the Canada Charter of Rights and Freedoms, you would have to be able to establish that there was a substantial reason why they could not be mixed, and you would have to apply for a specific exemption for that purpose. Potential discomfort of the female clients would not be an accepted reason for a waiver: there is no Right to not be uncomfortable. In the case of individual change rooms that provide privacy and which do not have any substantial specialized fitting equipment, it would be fairly unlikely that a Canadian court would grant an exemption.


Re-read your argument and substitute "white" for "female" and "black" for "cd'er". If the result is obviously socially unacceptable under current understandings of civil rights, then it would very likely be unacceptable under Canadian law.

I spoke to a lawyer friend of mine and she said... A dressing room is offered as a convenience and not a service, and as a private business owner I have the right to use my discretion as to who may or may not use it. While it may be morally reprehensible to refuse it's use, it's not against the law. I can simply say that since I don't have anyone to monitor the room.. it's closed.
publicly owned businesses may refuse a man access to the lady's dressing room at their discretion as long as they provide the same accommodations (men's dressing rooms) for men.
The same applies to restroom use in public or private business. A public or private business doing interstate commerce can (again at their discretion) refuse or even eject a patron who uses the restroom other than the one marked for their LEGAL gender, as long as the establishment provides the same facilities for them. As far as she knows, there is no provision for men who only "present" as a woman. That is to say that they are not bound by law to let a cder use the lady's room if they provide a men's room,, and if push comes to shove they can require you to provide proof of transgender (but nobody probably cares that much) .. but if a woman complains .. you might have some splainin to do.

[Katheryn]

But I had spied a little boutique store in my travels so I thought I'd pay a visit, in guy mode.

The first bit of confusion comes into play here. You mention a "boutique" but don't mention the nature of it. Was it a store that carried mostly women's clothes or was it bi-gendered in nature?

I walk in and two women were there, a SA (or owner?) and a customer. Immediately, the SA starts chatting me up in a positive way.

Again, the nature of the store is a factor here, but even more so, the ambiguity of whether the non-customer is an owner or just a SA. A SA is not empowered to change the rules the owner has laid down. I ran into a situation in Victoria's Secret where I was initially told I couldn't take merchandise of a feminine nature into the dressing area. My shopping companion, a very straightforward and to the point gg asked for the manager. We explained the situation to the manager and she unlocked the door to the dressing rooms. I ended up spending a good bit of money there that night. The manager explained that they had problems with males who took things into the dressing room and, er, "soiled them". She then told every associate in the store that I was allowed to try on anything I wanted, dressed boy or girl.

I replied that I'm typically a size 8 in this kind of style and asked if it would be OK if I tried this on. Her reply was immediate and emphatic as if rehersed despite the uneasy look on her face...

"Oh no, we don't let men in the dressing rooms".

One, if she was a SA and worked there for years, it wasn't so much rehearsed as it was ingrained, trained response. Perhaps she was in disagreement with the policy, but not allowed to make exceptions, plus, there was another customer in there and you have no idea what that other customer's thoughts of crossdressers was. If that other customer had spent thousands of dollars in that store, but was bigoted and societally straightlaced, it is possible that was a factor.

The look on her face was almost as if she saw a ghost, probably better described as a sudden moment of clarity. "OMG, look at you, so feminine" she said, among other things. By this time the customer in the store had left and the SA invited me to try on the red outfit, over and over again to the point where she was practially begging.

So the other customer, of whom you have no idea how they look at trans people, was now gone, the SA has the opportunity to make it right and perhaps endanger her job by running counter to store policy which she may not have had the authority to subvert and you don't allow her to "make it right" once she fully understands the situation.

My response? Sorry, not a chance. I explained nicely & politely that I shop where I am made to feel welcome and her initial response revealed her true colours.

Her initial response MAY have revealed her true colors, or they revealed the store policy about males in the dressing rooms. And even if it was her feelings when you entered the store, perhaps you'd educated her and given her a new perspective. So, educated and enlightened as she may have been, what did you show her about trans people at that point? We're stiff necked, easily offended folks. Was going to type something else, but thought the better of it.

Sometimes we demand that everyone fully and completely meet us at least halfway across the gender gap, but we have to remember to extend that to others, and, esp after they may have had a change of heart, to meet them halfway, also.

I was very clear that she lost a sale.

I was also going to ask at this point if you said "Nonny nonny boo boo" or some such childish thing, but decided not to. We really need to show folks, especially after they seem to realize we're not the perverts society has taught them that we are.

Kate

[noeleena]

Hi . Allie,
The issue that was being talked about was not being in the store s so much as being in the store & in the changing room areas where other women were.& they were trying on clothes. as i was refering to .
If you were buying clothes no probs .
Any way many men dont like being in womens shops .

We have some big stores with both male & female changing rooms even thats not the issue ,

For me its more the smaller boutiques for women .that was more what i was thinking , or the bra shopes
& as has been said men dont have any rights in shops or women for that matter . its up to the owner as to who can be in the stores, you / we are invited in . & can be told to leave .

We have had more than one man refused entry in to a shop here were we live,& our Police were involved ,
...noeleena...

[Leslie Langford]

Am I safe to assume that your sense of what's good for the goose is good for the gander applies to using the lady's room in the same fashion when in drab?

What Sandra-Leigh said. Right on, Sister!

As for using the ladies' room when in drab, that's not an issue for me as the need/desire to do so has never come up. I'm not on a mission to make a "point" in this respect, nor do I have a particular need to mark my "territory" as our four-legged friends do. But I do use the ladies' room when out en femme as that is just plain common sense, and I subscribe to the P.O.V. that one should use the washroom of the gender one is presenting as so as not to create any undue discomfort or consternation among the other users.

But getting back to my point about the sense of entitlement that females seem to feel in using men's washrooms - it often seems that their sense of urgency when hit with the "when ya gotta go, ya gotta go" need trumps my potential sense of discomfort when a woman walks past me to use the nearest stall while I am standing at a urinal doing my business. In that scenario, I am far more exposed than if the reverse were true and everyone in the ladies' room - including me - was sitting in a stall, and we all had our privacy despite whatever traffic might be taking place in the common area.

Yeah, yeah, women b*tch and complain that they have to do this because public buildings, theatres, arenas etc. typically don't have adequate washroom facilities for them, especially at times of heavy use e.g. during intermissions at a show. To that I say, that's not my problem, and if it is such an issue for them, then let them unleash the same fury at those builders who don't adequately take their needs into consideration as they have exercised in other areas to claim their rights to equality and an end to sex-based discrimination and double-standard treatment. As someone once said, "Your right to swing your arm ends where my nose begins."

[Ashley_Marie]

Thats the reason I never shop in women's clothing stores. When I do shop I either go to Wal-Mart or if I do go to a clothing store I go to one with both men's and women's clothes.

[sandra-leigh]

I spoke to a lawyer friend of mine and she said... A dressing room is offered as a convenience and not a service, and as a private business owner I have the right to use my discretion as to who may or may not use it. While it may be morally reprehensible to refuse it's use, it's not against the law. I can simply say that since I don't have anyone to monitor the room.. it's closed.
publicly owned businesses may refuse a man access to the lady's dressing room at their discretion as long as they provide the same accommodations (men's dressing rooms) for men.

First off, intimates are, by law, not returnable, and thus having to buy them, try them, bring them back, is not merely an inconvenience as in other kinds of merchandise: it is a legal impossibility. This factor changes the game. Likewise if it was store policy rather than law that no returns could be made except in cases of defects, then not providing a "service" would not go over at all well with Consumer And Corporate Affairs Canada, unless the items were being sold at substantial discounts "as-is".

Secondly, in Canada, the "discretion" that you speak of exists to some degree, but it must not be based upon any of the prohibited grounds in the Canada Charter of Rights and Freedoms, one of which is sexual discrimination. If you provide the "convenience" for females and the rooms are private from each other (so it isn't a "locker-room" type of situation) then you would not be able to blanketly deny access to males: there would have to be specific reasons for each denial. For example, it would not be unfair to deny access to someone grubby who obviously had not washed in a while... provided you applied the same standards to female clients.

I've had an SA try a variant of the "I don't have anyone to monitor" ploy when there was no-one else in the store. I just plopped down on one of the customer chairs and smiled and said (in a normal tone of voice), "Okay, I'll wait." After a few minutes of my patient waiting, the SA got flustered enough to realize they didn't have any good reason after-all, and although they could have had more grace in showing me in to the change room, by the time I was finished trying the items on, their attitude had moderated.


I might, in this discussion, perhaps somewhere have given the impression that SAs are generally or often reluctant to allow me to try things on; if so then it should be noted that the great majority of times there is no issue at all, with the SAs offering to start change-rooms for me.

I have encountered some smaller stores where an SA is thrown for a bit of a loss when I ask to try something on when I'm in drab, but in such cases, if a senior manager or owner is around, typically the manager / owner gives me a very quick once-over and tells the SA to let me in.

I have several times encountered places in which the official company policy was not to let males into that change room, but in which the SA took a brief look around to see if management was looking and promptly bustled me in -- that is, the SA themselves believed I should be allowed in and were only worried about being caught violating company policy.

If I have given the impression that in stores I rant about my rights until I'm given my way, that isn't the case (though on the fairly rare occasion I've gone back later to talk to an owner or senior manager.) More accurate is that even when I'm in semi-drab, owners and SA's see me and find themselves wanting to make exceptions for me -- and when they do, the next time I wonder back that way the policy has often been changed.

[Sara Jessica]

Wow, step away for a bit and all heck breaks loose...

How many in this discussion are women. not many i m thinking . & how many would go up to the sales lady & say hi . im a crossdresser would you mind if i tryed on some clothes . not many i bet.

I didn't know I had to wear a label of any kind.

Your talking about being accepted then why not be open in the first place . are the sale ladys going to be bothered . most , no.

You mean walk into the store and say "ta-daaaaa, here I am, a tg!" ???

when i take our granddaughter Dejarn in to the shops i dont expect men to be looking at me or Dejarn they should not be there .

1. Why would we be "looking at you", 2. "they should not be there???"

Im a woman in a womans shop & some times we dont wont or need men around ,

I'm having a hard time hearing this come from someone within our own community.

... a point thats being over looked..... remember you are men not women so please respect that miner detail ,you wont respect then give it , it goes both ways,

I give nothing but absolute respect in every out-and-about situation I find myself in and more often than not, I receive it back plus more.

If you come in , as dressed as female or / women then act like one & maybe you can be accepted in to our space just dont flunt it . as said lookers with roving eyes. no thanks,

"Our space?" There you go again, holier than thou. Glad to finally know what it takes to be accepted in your space, seems how I'm such a rookie at the whole thing.

Iv seen some dressers & why wont they be accepted . i think you know why. because theres nothing about them that says female, & that does not bode well for others who are trying to be female & live as female.

...and again!!! I hate the implication here, that unless one cannot pass as female by your standards, they have no business being out because it doesn't bode well for you.

And let the record reflect, speaking for myself, I am acutely aware of the challenges that those who are full time endure and I conduct myself in such a way so as never to hurt those who might follow in my wake.

The need is to be a little more in tune with women in the real world . I dont know about those of you here if you do this .

There is no question we all need to be in tune with the feelings of others. I think it's unfair to imply that anyone who is participating here is not.

im well known in all the shops i go in to & has been like that for years. difference is i get to know people may be i come from a different set of understanding people & in how i engage with people how i deal with people ,
I never had problems when i was shoping for Jos & later for my self because i made the point of getting to know the sales ladys . or others as was needed.

Hey, a page that's pretty much taken from my book. But then again, if I'm to go by many of the points you already made, the "first contact" that I described at the beginning should have included a name & species tag, an introductory greeting and...oh wait, I'm sorry, I didn't belong in such a store presenting as a guy. Never mind then, I guess it's best to be consigned to making all such purchases online.

One of the biggest problems the many men have is not being sensitive to how women think & feel hence the reason of much that has been talked about here, you know barge in do what you wont to do & no care for any one else so long as youv got what you wont. & then leave the mess behind .
Iv seen this enough times now & sad to say from some dressers. & its no wonder women are not accepting .

Painting again with such a broad brush.

No matter how we present, no matter where we choose to shop or what we buy, the motivations and goals for those of us who interact with the real world are probably as varied as we are as a group. Personally, I don't typically do the try-on thing in guy mode but I cannot and will not fault those who perhaps do all of their shopping in this way.

There is a serious amount of enlightenment which needs to take place before we are not seen as a curiosity, novelty, or worse when interacting with the public. And this does go both ways. If Noelena made a single point that I can agree with, it is that we must conduct ourselves with empathy and respect.

Noelena, I have to disagree with you regarding that men should not be in a woman's store. Why not? I have bought womens and girls clothes for my wife, daughter and girlfriends for too many years to think about (I am hat old!) and have every right to be in that store looking around. Just because a man is in a woman's store or section of a larger store does not mean he in any way that he is there to molest a woman nor peak in changing room. That type of negative activity is actually it is very rare when compared to the total number of people, men included who go into the stores. He could be there looking for a gift for someone or on an errand for his SO. Sara Jessica and the rest of us MtF dressers have every right to be in that same type of store to look around and maybe purchase something that we like for ourselves. We do not need to go in dressed as a woman either. I do understand that a smaller store may want to accommodate a male to try on woman's clothes by waiting until there are less woman in the changing area. However, even that "allowance" to their apprehensions can be argued as unnecessary.

Stated with so much more grace than I was able to pull off Allie.

So I am a business owner, and I am faced with the the possibility of alienating my female clientele by allowing men into their dressing room, or I can alienate the the odd cder who happens to drop by my business once every so often? Sorry, men aren't allowed in the lady's dressing rooms.

Such is the story on the other side of the coin. An absolute truth Kelly.

Sara, I'd like to propose a different scenario.

When you first asked if you could try on the outfit, the SA likely had NO IDEA that you are TG. You were in guy mode and you hadn't yet showed her your pictures. I know it seems like a no brainer to those of us who hang out here all the time, but believe it or not, most people don't automatically think "TG" when presented with a male who wants to go into the ladies rooms.

So true Reine.

What comes to mind instead, is the ubiquitous fear that most females experience around potentially unsafe situations involving men, the same fear that makes a woman uneasy about walking out alone at night. Trust me on this. The fear is real, and it is there because of centuries of men having had the upper hand on women physically, psychologically, and legally.

Also, here are some rape statistics: http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/statistics.html

91% of victims are female, 9% are male, with 99% of rapists being male. There are good reasons for women feeling uneasy about having men around when they are undressing. And how many times have there been comments in this very forum from CDs saying they don't like being around men because most of them are pigs disrespect women? And again, most female customers would not immediately consider that the male in the dressing rooms is TG and therefore is not a physical threat.

I agree. I touched on the "creepy" aspect but let the safety factor go without saying. Thank you for bringing this into the mix, it adds to what we all need to consider when showing empathy.

When the SA realized that you did have a legit reason to use the rooms, she offered you the opportunity. It would have been nice of you to take advantage of it. Maybe next time, you could explain that you are TG and show her the pics before asking to try on an outfit.

That is a very valid approach to consider if something like this happens to me again...if I have the pictures with me .

And I'll explain more later on when I have more time as to another reason why trying on the outfit became somewhat unimportant to me.

[SuzanneBender]

Sara what an entertaining and emotionally charged thread. Not unlike most of us that post here. There are so many salient points here it would take several pages to multi quote and comment on them all.

First Sara I must say you truly are confident in yourself and all that you do. You are a wonderful representative of our community. If more of us would do as you did by showing the shop owner our true selves I think our lives would be easier.

Your shopping experience and many of the comments in this thread show that we still have a long way to go baby. I don't fault the shop owner for her business decision. It was a decision driven by that fact that our society embraces repressive out dated gender stereotypes and roles. The stereotypes that paint someone that wants to dress like the opposite gender as a freak and the roles that still allow men act like cavemen to the point that women fear us. She had a choice and she chose to lose your business because at that moment because your were a man challenging those repressive boundaries.

Unfortunately her choice resulted in you not getting the outfit. I am sure it was fantabulous because I know your taste.

I guess I have a dream. A dream that one day those repressive gender lines will start to fall away. A dream that one day transgendered shoppers will be able to hold hands with non-transgenders shoppers and walk together as brothers and sisters browsing the newest fashions and enjoying the clearance racks together.

[ReineD]

It was a decision driven by that fact that our society embraces repressive out dated gender stereotypes and roles. The stereotypes that paint someone that wants to dress like the opposite gender as a freak and the roles that still allow men act like cavemen to the point that women fear us.

I, for one, do not embrace repressive, out-dated gender stereotypes and roles. You've not experienced the fear a woman feels when she is threatened by a man, or even when she feels there is a potential threat. It's real, and it happens. Frequently. I tried to explain it to my son once. He didn't understand it either. He's 6'4". I experience it even more frequently now that I live alone, every time I hear a noise in the middle of the night. Or when a strange man comes to the door. Or when I walk alone in a darkened parking lot.

How was the SA to know that Sara is transgender? How many TGs are there in her family, or has she been exposed to? What training has she had and if it is a small shop, what financial resources does the owner have to match the sensitivity training that larger corporations give their employees on all HR issues? How is the SA expected to tell the difference between a TG, a potential rapist, a man using false pretexes in order to get back there and steal a customer's purse, or a fetishist who enjoys self-gratification in women's changing rooms? You cannot dismiss the other possibilities. The world is filled with nefarious characters, and for the SA to be mistrustful of behaviors outside the norm does not mean she is prejudiced against TGs.

The SA did not choose to lose the sale. She behaved in the best way she knew how given her experience, and she did want to accommodate Sara once she felt comfortable with her motives. But if I were the SA and had a TG customer walk out after being offered the changing rooms, I would wonder if all TGs have such short fuses, and it might make me leery of the next TG who walks into the store.

The ideal you envision won't happen by itself. There simply aren't enough TGs out there to make such inroads. But it does have a chance of happening if members of the TG community are mindful of non-transgenders' ignorance, especially when the non TGs do their best to learn and to accommodate.

As a friend told me once when I was having trouble seeing someone else's POV, "It's not all about you".

[kellycan27]

Here you may take you intimates home and try them on and if they don't fit you may return them as long as you have not removed the tags.. leagally.
Many stores (here) ie VS, kohls, Penneys, Sears, Nordstroms will allow you to return intimates even IF the tags have been removed. The only thing that would be against the law would be IF the store re-sold the untagged return.
There was just a big to do about VS and some other big retailers re-tagging panties and putting them back on the sakes rack.

I spoke to my lawyer friend again and she said that you wouldn't have a sexual discrimination case here. The Store is providing you the same accommodations as it does it's female customers, so they are acting reasonably. In her honest opinion, you'd lose in court, "IF" in fact that the court would even bother to hear your case. She closed by saying that in this case the word "flivorious" comes to mind.

[Philipa Jane]

This has been a good subject to review by all concerned.

Am I wrong about Kelly and Sandra taking this into a pi--ing contest.

Whilst giving valid points of view they both seem to want to score points.

Reine I just love your sense of balance on the whole issue and we men do not know the unease that you feel at times when put in positions as were discussed here re changing rooms.

Sara.
I respect your right to handle the situation in such a way as you did, but with all things considered would it not be better now to go back to the boutique (if they had other things you may have liked) and be treated with much better service and a new understanding?

Finally If I ever get to the stage of trying things on in a store I think to save embarrassment I would quietly let the SA know that I am CD and see how that flies.
PJ

[Danni Bear]

Kelly,
I can understand your p.o.v. but even before I transitioned when in male if my young granddaughter had to go . I would take her in the ladies room but would announce myself before going past the door. If noone answered then I proceeded but most times a woman would answer and would help her. I will still do the same today with ny young grandsons but I also will not leave the area and if it seems too long I will enter come hell or high water.

Danni

[kellycan27]

Am I wrong about Kelly and Sandra taking this into a pi--ing contest

Sandra and Kelly are having a friendly debate. Some of us are interested in other things besides what color panties one wears, or whether one stands or sits when they pee. that ok with you? You will notice that I said when they pee, not where they pee... we're still discussing that.

[TinaMc]

How was the SA to know that Sara is transgender? How many TGs are there in her family, or has she been exposed to? What training has she had and if it is a small shop, what financial resources does the owner have to match the sensitivity training that larger corporations give their employees on all HR issues? How is the SA expected to tell the difference between a TG, a potential rapist, a man using false pretexes in order to get back there and steal a customer's purse, or a fetishist who enjoys self-gratification in women's changing rooms? You cannot dismiss the other possibilities. The world is filled with nefarious characters, and for the SA to be mistrustful of behaviors outside the norm does not mean she is prejudiced against TGs.

Is it fair on men though that in this situation they are being judged as either: freaky tranny, potential rapist, thief, or pervert wanting to bash one out in the ladies' changing area? As someone else said previously, women don't get that treatment going into men's changing areas. No one would think twice about their motives. Why are men automatically subject to suspicion? I realise we are the ones venturing into GGs territory here, just think it's a bit of a sad reflection on how men are viewed in today's world really...

[Philipa Jane]

Sorry Kelly if the suggestion hit a nerve (I did not mean any offence)
I take it from the inference that I have by way of the reference to coloured panties and such like.
Shame on you!!
Often we read inferences into situations and text that are not correct.
PJ

[kellycan27]

Sorry Kelly if the suggestion hit a nerve (I did not mean any offence)
I take it from the inference that I have by way of the reference to coloured panties and such like.
Shame on you!!
Often we read inferences into situations and text that are not correct.
PJ

Nope, no offence taken, and any inference was strictly by chance.. I don't read the panty threads so I have no idea who does or doesn't post in them.

Kel

[Katheryn]

I mentioned this thread to a co-worker today and she had an entirely different idea than I have noticed mentioned in the thread.

Lawsuits. Every business has to protect itself from lawsuits, many of which should never have been filed. Just as the Darwin Awards online (800 + stupid ways people have accidentally killed themselves, we now have The Stella Awards in honor of Stella Liebeck the lady who infamously put the McDonald's coffee between her legs and burned herself.

It doesn't matter if the lawsuit has actual value, legally. Anyone can and does sue over even immagined slights. Finding a male in the dressing room could spark someone to call Willwee Cheetem and Howe, Attorneys at Law on their cell phone.

It's a sad world in many ways.

Kate

[Satrana]

As someone else said previously, women don't get that treatment going into men's changing areas. No one would think twice about their motives. Why are men automatically subject to suspicion?

To me that is the important issue here. In our society women are innocent until proven guilt. The opposite is true of men - we are guilty until proven innocent.

Remember Sara had not revealed her TG status yet so the SA's cold initial response was a reflection on her sexist discrimination towards males in general.

To claim that this sexism is justified because some men are creeps does not hold water. This is easily demonstrated. Would the SA be right in denying a black person the use of the changing rooms on the premise that they are more likely to steal the clothes. After all it is a fact that criminality runs at much higher levels in the black community than the white community. So you can argue the data evidence would justify such a response, so lets change the SA's response -

"We don't allow black people to use our changing rooms"

Now the discrimination is blatant. Who is going to argue that this is justifiable despite the data backing up this sentiment?

We need to wake up to the fact that it is ALWAYS wrong to discriminate. Women do not have an entitlement to discriminate against men because of the actions of a few. Equality has a clear meaning however our society has been conditioned to accept discrimination against men is permissible.

This story is not about TG rights rather it is about men's rights.

[Sara Jessica]

OK, beer and margaritas!!!

As suggested by Diane, her and I met up over some PF Chang's happy hour on Monday. There's more to be said about that fun evening in another place but let me say this about Diane...she comes across as being pretty serious (or is that pretty & serious???) and sometimes a little intense in her writing (which is one thing I've enjoyed about reading her posts). But let me say how charming and fun she is. It's great to meet someone new in our community because the opportunity for chatting it up is nearly endless. I found that her and I do share many similarities, not to mention that our outfits, though distinctly different in person, kind of look way too similar in pictures...it was an absolute pleasure to meet you Diane!

So back to the summit. Ya know, there just wasn't a lot of debate. We barely touched on it. Was it simply because we were distracted by other things? Perhaps. But I'll float a little theory that something that I did earlier in the day kind of added a new twist to the whole thing which maybe rendered further discussion moot.

Although I was meeting Diane at 5:00-ish, I was to meet another friend for lunch in downtown Los Angeles so my day was quite full. But as the morning wore on, the lunch kept being pushed back because my friend was doing a makeover for one of her friends who she recently connected with at a high school reunion. So our lunch ended up being at 2:30 p.m. Heading into LA, I found myself with just a little time to kill.

It wasn't too far off my path to pay a visit to said boutique in girl mode. I walked in and found the store empty, no one in sight. I started to peruse the outer racks when she emerged from a back room, the SA from the first visit. She asked if she could help me and I asked if she recognized me. The expression on her face was priceless. She said she wouldn't have even recognized me were it not for my voice (darnit!!!). Her compliments on my appearance were sweet, even to the point where I actually felt a little uncomfortable of being on the receiving end of such praise. But I did sense she was being absolutely genuine. I explained to her that I was on my way to have lunch with a friend, that I only had a minute but wanted to stop by to say hello.

This short visit, at least for me, seemed to bring the episode full circle. The SA, she has essentially interacted with someone from our community in guy mode (with trepidation), visually through pictures (with mind opened up) and finally in person (now enlightened?).

More later on some of the subsequent points, time permitting. Again, Diane, thank you for creating the opportunity for our little get-together.

[stefanie]

Wow...great thread and responses.

my 2 cents....

i tend to be less harsh on SA's or any others than seem to be 'critical' of us. They are simply trying to do their job. They are presented with rules by the management and /or owners. This is what allows them to keep their job. Pretty simple as it works for say 99% of their customers i am sure. As a society, we have trained people to follow the rules. People are not trying to be mean or critical, they are simply taking the easier protocol path...can we blame them until they learn more then they can make a different decision. I think as a society we all too often judge others on our first impression when we expect others not to judge us on the same. Easy answer, nope. Empathetic answer, i hope so.

[Leslie Langford]

Sara,

I applaud you for bringing this incident to such a happy conclusion, and despite a few hiccups along the way, you appear to have made a new ally (and possibly a friend) in this SA who is now clearly ready to count you among her favorite and more valued customers. It is always wonderful when an initially troubling story is brought to a successful resolution and results in a happy ending like this one - especially when a "win-win" situation is created out of a better understanding of the other person's position and the spirit of compromise is invoked. In the end, it all comes down to respect, which is really what most of us are seeking when it comes to our interactions with "mainstream" folks.

You have done us all a great service, not only by educating this SA as to what we CDers are (and aren't), but also by breaking down the barriers of mistrust and suspicion that arose between the two of you in your initial meeting. I am sure that this has left a very positive impression on her, and she will henceforth bend over backwards when serving other members of our community, should the occasion arise again.

This is the same philosophy that I follow when out and about as "Leslie". I may not always be completely passable, but I dress and conduct myself in a manner that is respectful to women, and the amount of goodwill and superior service that I have been able to attract in the process borders on the amazing. Aretha Franklin's "R.E.S.P.E.C.T" mantra is really at the core of this, especially when this respect flows in both directions and in equal measure.

[TxKimberly]

So I am a business owner, and I am faced with the the possibility of alienating my female clientele by allowing men into their dressing room, or I can alienate the the odd cder who happens to drop by my business once every so often? Sorry, men aren't allowed in the lady's dressing rooms.

In all honesty, I do have to agree with you BUT. . .
The business owner made her choice and now gets the consequences, both good and bad. She chose not to risk alienating her female clients and she lost at least one sale, and the possibility of more future sales, from Sarah and anyone Sarah might share this information with.
So, the owner made her choice, and Sarah made hers. Both people were well within their rights and both people left the experience unhappy.
Kind of screwed up huh?