hey, how are my gay male crossdressers doing?

[Barbara Dugan]

I think the right guy would probably identify as proudly bi and wouldn't give a damn if people read me or not. He's out there ladies, we just have to keep trying 'em on until we find one that fits.

Sounds like a perfect plan Melissa

[StarrOfDelite]

MARRIED MEN

As an older CD/TV I try to stick to my own age group, plus or minus ten years. This pretty much is a pool of lifelong bachelors who are Gay, Bi-sexual Divorcees, and Unhappily Married Men. I've dated in all three categories, but this discussion is about the latter only.

I have been surprised by the number of married men whoapproach me, and say pretty much the same thing: 1. They have been married 10-12-15 years, 2. The marriage has been asexual for several years, 2. They have 'always' been curious about crossdressers/transvestites, and 3. Are willing to actually spend cash on me for drinks, dinner, and (if things click just right) a nice hotel room. Orientation-wise, they are different from Admirers I've met at Alternate Clubs, but I'm not sure I could define that feeling in less than a thousand words, and even then it would be imperfect.

I've dated a number of such men, have been intimate with a significant percentage of them, and have even grown fond of some.

I was. and still am to some extent, ethically troubled by the situation. I have reached a point where I justify it on the basis that whatever was wrong with the marriages had happened long before I was in the picture. Also, I am really only interested in good times, fun and satisfying sex, so I have no intent to disrupt the marriages any further.

The downside factors are the aforementioned moral ambiguity, and the fact that the relationship isn't going anywhere.

The upside factors are that the relationship isn't going anywhere, so I don't have to be worried about pleasing and/or not-offending a significant other, and that these guys tend to treat me like a real woman, and not like another man.

[joannemarie barker]

ever since I had sex with my flatmate I have struggled with guilt over my feelings.he has a lovely girlfriend who I get on with really well now.I realise it was one crazy night on his part and I am sorry I slept with him whilst he's with her but I can't help myself wishing I could have another night like that with him even though I really like his gf,I feel guilty about that but I still couldn't pass up another chance

[ReineD]

2. The marriage has been asexual for several years, 2. They have 'always' been curious about crossdressers/transvestites,

Orientation-wise, they are different from Admirers I've met at Alternate Clubs, but I'm not sure I could define that feeling in less than a thousand words, and even then it would be imperfect.

The upside factors are that the relationship isn't going anywhere, so I don't have to be worried about pleasing and/or not-offending a significant other, and that these guys tend to treat me like a real woman, and not like another man.

Do you think the reason they have no sex with their wives is perhaps a lack of interest in women, and had they come to terms with their sexuality earlier, they would not have married GGs?

Also, I understand you are not their keeper and there is no way you can determine whether or not you are making their relationships worse, unless you actually have a chat with their wives. These wives need to know the truths about their husbands so that they can just bite the bullet and move on from their relationships and perhaps find someone who is into them. But, have you ever considered going out with men who have taken the plunge after realizing they are not into their wives and have actually divorced them? Of course, if all these people are into open relationships, then my comments do not apply.

I realise it was one crazy night on his part and I am sorry I slept with him whilst he's with her but I can't help myself wishing I could have another night like that with him even though I really like his gf,I feel guilty about that but I still couldn't pass up another chance

As with my comments above, if she is sleeping around too and they have an open relationship, then all bets are off, but what makes things worse in your situation is the fact that you KNOW the gf would be upset if she found out. Where are your principles? Feeling "guilty", yet going ahead anyway does not absolve you from any wrong-doing.

To both of you: even men in committed homosexual relationships have some sense of propriety and loyalty to their partners, unless, again, they are in open relationships.

[joannemarie barker]

you're right reine,in fairness I wasn't even aware they were really together that night and nothing has happened since and I'm sure won't again anyway

[Vickie_CDTV]

Also, I understand you are not their keeper and there is no way you can determine whether or not you are making their relationships worse, unless you actually have a chat with their wives. These wives need to know the truths about their husbands so that they can just bite the bullet and move on from their relationships and perhaps find someone who is into them. But, have you ever considered going out with men who have taken the plunge after realizing they are not into their wives and have actually divorced them? Of course, if all these people are into open relationships, then my comments do not apply.

That is an excellent point, after all the wives who do not know what is going on behind their backs are not consenting to sleep with the person they are cheating with (and putting their health and their life at potential risk.)

But not only does it affect the wife, but the children of the man who is cheating. Think about the damage that will be done to them if the wife finds out and the family is torn apart, and torn apart in a very ugly, nasty way to boot.

[StarrOfDelite]

Do you think the reason they have no sex with their wives is perhaps a lack of interest in women, and had they come to terms with their sexuality earlier, they would not have married GGs?

Also, I understand you are not their keeper and there is no way you can determine whether or not you are making their relationships worse, unless you actually have a chat with their wives. These wives need to know the truths about their husbands so that they can just bite the bullet and move on from their relationships and perhaps find someone who is into them. But, have you ever considered going out with men who have taken the plunge after realizing they are not into their wives and have actually divorced them? Of course, if all these people are into open relationships, then my comments do not apply.




To both of you: even men in committed homosexual relationships have some sense of propriety and loyalty to their partners, unless, again, they are in open relationships.

\
You certainly raise some interesting questions, and I'm not sure I'm competent to answer them. However, here's a stab. I have not dated married men except those who have claimed they were no longer intimate with their spouses, and had not been intimate for a sufficiently long period of time for me to assume that future intimacy was unlikely. Admittedly, this is taking the statements made to me at face value, which requires a certain amount of assessing the veracity of the male involved. I don't think I would knowingly sleep with a man who was still involved in a sexual relationship with his wife.

Regarding the question of whether they are men who might not really be interested in genetic women, I'd have to say that is a fairly strong possibility. My personal experience, which is fairly limited, would lead me to think that the statement that, "Inside every Admirer there is a Crossdresser struggling to get out," has some truth. On the other hand, there are genuinely bi-sexual people who enjoy being married or involved in a serious relationship with a G-girl, who still enjoy getting on the down-low with other men, and who are just as sexually attracted to either men or women or CD/TV. I think Barbara M asked the right question when she said (paraphrased) these men claim to be straight, claim to be interested in women, and treat CD/TV like women, so why are they interested in someone who is, in the final analysis, a genetic man? When anyone answers that question, please call me ASAP.

I'm probably older than you, and in my experiences as a military officer, a lawyer, a college professor and an educational consultant I've come to the conclusion that there are many, many marriages where the partners are over fifty, and no longer physically attracted to each other, which endure because of family, financial, friendship or religious reasons. I would describe these arrangements as things which function as 'open marriages' without any express agreement by either husband or wife. I would, therefore, strongly disagree with the blanket statement that "these wives need to know the truth about their husbands" because in many instances the wife absolutely does NOT want to know anything about what the husband is doing.

Again, starting with the basic premise that these are middle-aged men, in marriages in which the wife is content to have an asexual relationship, with children out of college, I'm not sure that I'd agree it is worse for man to have affairs with Genetic women or Trans-women than it is to drag everything out in the open in the name of Truth, and thereby create a situation where arguably both parties are poorer financially and emotionally and socially. Truth can be a highly over-rated commodity, and like most 'virtues' it's efficacy is often situational rather than absolute.

[maya1love]

Well, there certainly has been alot of activity on this thread recently! I'm so glad! Just a friendly reminder, as the self-appointed moderator of this thread , that the purpose of the thread is to talk about our experiences as gay male crossdressers. There are many threads about our experiences with admirers from a straight or bi crossdresser perspective, but none from an exclusively gay male perspective. One of the reasons that I want to keep this thread relevant and alive is to discuss, as gay male crossdressers, how to form relationships/partnerships with men. So, it's more than about how to find sex with men, or about who these male admirers are -- it's about building a relationship with a man. Thanks for your understanding, ladies!

One of the things that I am realizing in reading posts is that the straight/bi crossdresser community seems to be at a different stage in their evolution regarding relationships than the gay male crossdresser community. There are lots of posts about what it's like to be a straight crossdresser with a wife/girlfriend and the issues that crossdressing raises. There are alot of success stories, and discussion of compromises to allow the crossdresser to be. However, the gay male crossdresser community is more at the stage of "how do I find a supportive husband/boyfriend"? Perhaps, this is the case because there are so many more straight/bi crossdressers out there than gay crossdressers. But I also think that gay crossdressers may expect that they will not be lucky enough to find a good relationship and settle for being single? Would love to hear your thoughts on this!

Wino_tg_girl: Your post gave me so much hope! It reminded me again of what is most important!
Christa: You are my hero and a pioneer in this discussion!

Thank you all for your posts!

[Tia808]

However, the gay male crossdresser community is more at the stage of "how do I find a supportive husband/boyfriend"? Perhaps, this is the case because there are so many more straight/bi crossdressers out there than gay crossdressers. But I also think that gay crossdressers may expect that they will not be lucky enough to find a good relationship and settle for being single? Would love to hear your thoughts on this!
***
Christa: You are my hero and a pioneer in this discussion!

Maya, I think you're right that a lot of gay CDs sorta give up on relationships, and I think that, as with straight CDs, there's another sizable percentage of our demographic that simply suppress their CDing to land a man. (From an outsider's perspective, it must seem so strange that our situation is about as tough as it is for straight CDs (despite all the wonderful, beautiful success stories here, I think supportive partners of either sex are in the minority), especially for those of us that have never been traditionally masculine. But it obviously is!). I think another sizable percentage "evolve" to identify more as TS (and I suspect I'm on that road myself, though I consider it more of a lateral than an evolution ), and there is a somewhat related subset that, whether or not they identify as TS, feminize their everyday appearances to at point which guys attracted to them in everyday mode are more likely to accept or appreciate them bumping it up a notch to girl mode.

And I guess the final reason (at least the last one I'll bother you all with) that there seems to be less input from our segment is that it seems most of the more masculine gay CDs, and the ones that take on the husband role, *tend* to regard CDing as more of a drag thing, a fun thing to do for kicks (I know this is an over-generalization, but still). And, much more so than in straight relationships/community, drag often isn't seen as that big of a deal in a relationship. I think it's a little different for us, we strive harder to be convincing, real-world gals, and the need to be able to present that way is a little more ingrained into us. And that, as opposed to just-for-kicks-drag, has an impact on relationships.

With that, I'll shut up a bit and rest my fingers and brain

P.S., Christa, you're TOTALLY a hero and pioneer!

[ReineD]

"Inside every Admirer there is a Crossdresser struggling to get out," has some truth. On the other hand, there are genuinely bi-sexual people who enjoy being married or involved in a serious relationship with a G-girl, who still enjoy getting on the down-low with other men, and who are just as sexually attracted to either men or women or CD/TV. I think Barbara M asked the right question when she said (paraphrased) these men claim to be straight, claim to be interested in women, and treat CD/TV like women, so why are they interested in someone who is, in the final analysis, a genetic man? When anyone answers that question, please call me ASAP.

I agree with you! Have you heard of Alice Novik (Alice in Genderland). She is a psychologist who also has extensive experience having sex with men as Alice, and she is also happily married and in an open relationship with a GG. This is her take on admirers in the LA area, it's a very good read: http://aliceingenderland.com/Manhunt.html

The other possibility is, as you say, the men interested in CDers are bi. This makes perfect sense. What I don't understand are the CDers who believe that men who are interested in them are straight and further that they sees the CDers completely as women, but with the "little something extra" that GGs don't have.

I'm probably older than you, ...

(I peeked, and honestly, just by a negligible amount. )

.... and in my experiences as a military officer, a lawyer, a college professor and an educational consultant I've come to the conclusion that there are many, many marriages where the partners are over fifty, and no longer physically attracted to each other, which endure because of family, financial, friendship or religious reasons. I would describe these arrangements as things which function as 'open marriages' without any express agreement by either husband or wife. I would, therefore, strongly disagree with the blanket statement that "these wives need to know the truth about their husbands" because in many instances the wife absolutely does NOT want to know anything about what the husband is doing.

Again, starting with the basic premise that these are middle-aged men, in marriages in which the wife is content to have an asexual relationship, with children out of college, I'm not sure that I'd agree it is worse for man to have affairs with Genetic women or Trans-women than it is to drag everything out in the open in the name of Truth, and thereby create a situation where arguably both parties are poorer financially and emotionally and socially. Truth can be a highly over-rated commodity, and like most 'virtues' it's efficacy is often situational rather than absolute.

You are correct. I can only speculate as to how women in such marriages would feel. I do agree there are many middle-aged marriages where the only bond is emotional or financial and where sex is but a distant memory. I just know that I would not be able to stay in a relationship like that. I would want to know if my husband was going out to clubs for sex. I rather think I might feel less threatened if I knew he was attracted to CDers and not GGs, but it still is something that I don't think I could live with.

The scenario I have in mind is, there is a tacit understanding between both such partners that sex is no longer a priority for either of them, and it is replaced by the depth of the emotional bond and caring that has developed over having shared a lifetime of trials and tribulations. If I were such a wife I'd be surprised to find out that my husband still has an active interest in sex and if I knew about this, I would do what I could to rekindle it between us. Admittedly, I may be naive.

[StarrOfDelite]

I agree with you! Have you heard of Alice Novik (Alice in Genderland). She is a psychologist who also has extensive experience having sex with men as Alice, and she is also happily married and in an open relationship with a GG. This is her take on admirers in the LA area, it's a very good read: http://aliceingenderland.com/Manhunt.html

The other possibility is, as you say, the men interested in CDers are bi. This makes perfect sense. What I don't understand are the CDers who believe that men who are interested in them are straight and further that they sees the CDers completely as women, but with the "little something extra" that GGs don't have.

Hi Reine,

Thanks for the link to Alice Novik. I had never read her blog before, and it will be on my favorites list in the future.

I think that she hits the nail on the head with her comments. I particularly was struck by her comment that CD/TV people can never understand whether under the proper circumstances a Straight Male might consider a walk on the wild side becuase we are not now, and never were pure straight males and have always looked at the world with a different perspective. I'm sure that some, but not all, of the posters on Crossdressers.com would disagree with that statement, of course, but as an Admirer who quckly became seduced into active transvestitism, I can identify with her column more than some others. My personal history would probably make a poster-boy/girl case history for her professionally. Details omitted.

Starr

You are correct. I can only speculate as to how women in such marriages would feel. I do agree there are many middle-aged marriages where the only bond is emotional or financial and where sex is but a distant memory. I just know that I would not be able to stay in a relationship like that. I would want to know if my husband was going out to clubs for sex. I rather think I might feel less threatened if I knew he was attracted to CDers and not GGs, but it still is something that I don't think I could live with.

The scenario I have in mind is, there is a tacit understanding between both such partners that sex is no longer a priority for either of them, and it is replaced by the depth of the emotional bond and caring that has developed over having shared a lifetime of trials and tribulations. If I were such a wife I'd be surprised to find out that my husband still has an active interest in sex and if I knew about this, I would do what I could to rekindle it between us. Admittedly, I may be naive.

In your scenario, I found your comment about being surprised to learn your husband still had an active interest in sex to be interesting. I think there are lots of reasons why men lose interest in having sex with their wives, but am skeptical that this equates to a loss of interest in sex. Work pressures, poor physical fitness, distractions from children, and sometimes just "familiarity breeds contempt" can dull the interest in the spouse, but I doubt that this generally means loss of interest in the activity. The real question, as it pertains to this board, it seems to me, is how much of the loss of interest is caused by the male's underlying inherent attraction to M2F trans-gender persons?

I think it's safe to assume your are much more sophisticated about this issue than most gender women, but I wonder if the 'typical' married woman would not be more outraged by the fact that her husband's lover was transgender. I'd guess that many women wouldn't attempt to rekindle the fire because they might think the husband was gay and they couldn't compete, or because they themselves would be so homophobic that they'd be disgusted.

[TxCassie]

Hello All,
Hello Maya1Love,

Please forgive me, but I've been a member of the board for some years now. To my discredit, I have not been a good poster or been active in keeping up. I've lost my password, forgotten my userID, you name it, I had the roadblocked. I finally purchased my first laptop and signed on with my first wireless service, which was a big, big step in the right direction. So, I'm taking another stab at making a connection here.

Maya, I must apologize, only tonight did I read your the private message you sent me in 2009, yes 2009. I had no idea anyone written me. Please, please accept my apologies From what I can tell you've done remarkable work keeping us gay TGals together here on the forum.

My name is Cassie. I'm now a grand dame at the age of 51yrs. I do dress, but not as often as I'd like and I've never dressed fully. I'm working on it. I've found a boutique in Houston, Texas (I'm in San Antoni0, 250 west-southwest of Houston) that caters to TGals. SA isn't the friendliest city for us TGals. I am gay, always been, always had Cassie in me, but for years made sure she didn't even see the light of day. As I grew older, I found that I could no longer ignore Cassie and her need to be expressed in some way, that was about ten years ago. I've built and purged a couple of times since. I'm currently trying to re-build my wardrobe again, hopefully, with no purging this time.

I love being a male, but I never felt i was totally masculine and so easily identify with a feminine nature. I don't know if it's a commentary on how I see my sexuality or self-homophobia. I do know, I feel great when I dress and I think I'd like knowing other TGals and men who know Cassie or know about Cassie.

So, once again, sorry for the inconsistency, I meant no harm.

Cassie

[StarrOfDelite]

Hi ladies! I was thinking that I would like to create a flickr group about gay transvestites/crossdressers, so I did. Here is the link: http://www.flickr.com/groups/gaytransvestites/

If you are interested, please feel free to join!

Done. You have a great photostream on Flickr Maya.

[Barbara Dugan]

MARRIED MEN

The downside factors are the aforementioned moral ambiguity, and the fact that the relationship isn't going anywhere.

The upside factors are that the relationship isn't going anywhere, so I don't have to be worried about pleasing and/or not-offending a significant other, and that these guys tend to treat me like a real woman, and not like another man.

I was once approached by E-mail by the wife of one married guy,not really sure how she found me, but the thing is I didn't had any relationship with this guy other than just an Internet flirt...the experience left me emotionally scarred because in the past I did got involved with other married guys as a matter of fact I was basically looking for them.
I made a decision at the time to stop any affair with a married guy.. recently I've been close to broke the promise I made to myself, it's been hard because the experience that Delite describe is a very nice one but I think I can be strong enough.

Do you think the reason they have no sex with their wives is perhaps a lack of interest in women, and had they come to terms with their sexuality earlier, they would not have married GGs?
.

Most of these guys claim to be straight a few define themselves as bisexual or bi curious and they are interested on women and they always go to the extremes of treat you as one..why are they interested on a transvestite? is something that still I am triying to figure out