Crossdressing: a crime against masculinity?

[Tima]

[SIZE="2"]This weekend I’ve been thinking about the lives of Billy, Seth, Asher, and Tyler, all ending in suicide, all victims of “deadly bullying,” all because they were gay. The word “gay” seems oddly inappropriate, or somewhat ironic, at times like this. I was the victim of bullying in the extreme, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves. According to HealthDay News:

"A teen's outward aspect -- seeming somewhat "feminine" if male, or "masculine" if female -- can up the risk of bullying and contribute to a propensity to depression for years to come, one new study suggests.
In the study, published in the November issue of Developmental Psychology, researchers looked at data from a survey of 245 gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender young adults from the Bay Area in California. About half were Latino and about half were white; they realized their sexual orientation at an average age of 11 and reported coming out -- disclosing their orientation to someone else -- at the average age of 15.
The participants who reported the most bullying as children were about 2.5 times more likely as the others to be clinically depressed as young adults, the study found. About 63 percent of the most bullied kids were clinically depressed, compared to 34 percent of the least bullied. In the big picture, the bullying of the most feminine boys and the most masculine girls -- that's the way they described themselves looking back on their childhoods -- appeared to "essentially account for major differences in mental health between young gay adults," said study co-author Stephen T. Russell, a professor at the University of Arizona."

No doubt about it, it’s a crime to be a feminine boy. How else can you explain the bullying by more masculine types? There’s no doubt those are the ones who are doing it, unapologetically, I might add. That’s bad enough, but if you’re a boy, gay or not, expressing his inherent femininity through crossdressing, you’re exacerbating the issue, and drawing abuse from all sides. Why? It’s a crime against masculinity, that’s why.

I was bullied all during my public school years. I never had to “disclose” my gender-queerness, since it was on display from day one. I never felt there was a need to disclose my homosexuality, either. I’ve never been in the closet. As such, I was the designated target for beaucoup abuse. I was pushed into lockers, knocked over, punched, kicked, urinated on, ridiculed openly, taunted, and my books were often kicked across the floor, only to be further kicked by girls who were apparently trying to tell me something. There were sympathetic friends, of course, but they were too terrified to come to my aid. We all suffered in silence back then.

Despite all this, I came through it all with my mental health intact. I had just enough people close to me who believed in me, loved me, and knew I was not some kind of freak. I didn’t really get depressed, because a few souls told me I was special when it counted. Also, a few masculine men, or should I say gentlemen, protected me. I didn’t fight back. I didn’t turn my back on femininity or crossdressing, since doing so would negate my reasons for living. I always kept moving forward, away from danger, yet staying within myself. I was lucky, unlike the dearly departed (see above).

Why is expressing yourself through MtF crossdressing so threatening to people? Is it a crime? I’m not hurting anybody, so why do people feel the need to hurt me? I believe there is a “good” voice inside of everyone trying to be heard, but sometimes that person can’t hear it. Meanwhile, the more base human instincts cause us to seek out and eliminate all those who are different, if only to fit in with one’s peers for a (brief) feeling of power or domination. Why is this not a crime, while actively or openly expressing one’s LGBT nature is? It makes no sense, unless you’re masculine, of course. Nothing is being threatened, so leave me alone. You’re you, and I’m me, and we each have a right to exist. Can you hear me, masculinity?

I realize everyone has a different definition of what “masculine” means, but I’m talking about the masculinity that needs to express itself at the expense of others.
[/SIZE]

[LitaKelley]

I was bullied throughout the majority of education from elementary school all the way up til senior year of high school. Before high school I could not understand why and today I can't recall anything specific to help me understand, but high school I can recall MANY things.. I had very long hair, my whole life up until around 98.. That may of been the reason for earlier years, but by high school I also had both ears pierced multiple times, wore dangly earrings, wore eye liner and dressed so out of the ordinary, but not female or presenting as female.. (I was into the glam 80s hair bands) and my peers were jocks and country hicks.

Rather than having male friends, I was always hanging around with the girls....I just liked them better, related to them better, felt more comfortable and had more in common with them. Instead of going out with the guys to drink beers or watch the game or whatever, I'd be at the mall shopping with the girls..... Instead of participating in any sports, I'd write songs and poetry and create art...... Instead of being like the other boys bragging about "banging that chick" I was a virgin until I was 18 and was more sensitive, gentle, caring and loving towards girls feelings and emotions...

Instead of going to my high school prom like a normal high school kid I rounded up all the girls that weren't asked to the prom and had all 9 of them as my dates in the back of a limo drinking and having fun riding around town, then stopping by the prom as it was ending to all stand out the moon roof and flip everybody off, lol.

Anyway, yeah.. I got alot of ass whoopings in high school, lol... I was the "pretty boy", the "girly boy".. to some I was a f'ing homo even though I was the one with all the girls they wanted.. I had a sh--load of girlfriends

[Aprilrain]

I'm 6'1 with 3 inch steletos and a .38 auto in my purse. Bully me. No but seriously I don't own stelletos. But if you think defending your self is turning your back on your femininity you have not met my wife!

[Philipa Jane]

The aspect of bulling has always been around but seems to be more prominent now than ever.
At school I was in the normal size range of young boys with no special qualities sports wise or academically.
But I did so love to watch the wrestling on TV. I did learn a lot of moves which helped me overcome those that tried to bully me.
People did tend to think that because I wore glasses that I was an easy target.
Time to reflect on that when your arm or wrist was about to be broken.
By the time I reached the senior school I had a reputation of a person to befriend not bully.

I always felt that my female school mates liked me because of my long lashes (magnified behind the strong lenses) and my gentle side.
PJ

[subwrx]

Thanks for sharing. I can totally relate I had a similar grade school experience. Interestingly enough a few weeks ago I went to my 10 year class reunion. I did not want to go but my wife who was a class behind me (we met at high school) really wanted to so I reluctantly went along. Believe it or not not, two individuals separately approached me and apologized for being a "dick to you in high school". I was stunned, but pulled my jaw from of the floor and forgave them "water under the bridge". And had a great time.

Also from that night turns out all the nerds who I knew who were picked on are now doing great things. Meanwhile all the apes and popular people blamed the economy for not having a good job. This for me was the ultimate revenge.

[eluuzion]

"It's not whether you win or lose...
It's whether I win or lose."

Many people take this a joke. Unfortunately, some adopt it as a philosophy for their life.

Everything "bad" is usually blamed on the smartest person in the room...

[Pythos]

What I find really funny and stupid is when macho men that want Women as sexual partners, beat up or disparage those guys that pose absolutely know threat to their "conquering". The way I look at it, the more gay guys there are in the room with me and two girls (me in my more preferred look) the more likely I will get together with at least one of the women.

So guys beating up gays, are not really looking at the big picture. But then again most gay bashers are unbelievably stupid, or fearful cowards.

I do have to state however, this is about effeminate boys or masculine girls. This is NOT dealing with cross dressing per se.

I think the conclusions being made by the OP are dangerously close to the incorrect notion that Cross dressing automatically makes one homosexual.

I know of the kind of person they are referencing to in this article, and YES boys of this category DID get beat up. The Tom girls as the "masculine girls" were called, actually were not. They were ostracized from the "in crowds" like cheerleader groups and stuff, but they were not physically beaten. Many were in the female basket ball or base ball teams and were respected for the most part, except by some crummy groups.

[Kate Simmons]

The universal law of energy return is always in motion. Whatever a person does to you is received back to them eventually by a factor of three or more. You needent do a thing. Basically it's the old adage: "Point a finger at someone else and three are pointed back at you."

[JohnH]

I believe there is the problem of "masculinity anxiety" on the part of a lot of men. They go around trying to prove their maculinity. They are the ones who drive loud jacked up pickup trucks, have extensive gun collections, etc. If they see anybody that is different they go ballistic.

I went on a walk wearing an above the knee denim skirt, with a man's shirt and a man's pair of sandals. One of my neighbors was in his garage with the door open. I walked up his driveway, and with myself outside of the garage I greeted him. He comes storming out, yelling something like "F**king pervert - wearing a dress" in front of his wife and children. I yelled back at him "If you touch me I will press charges" A few minutes later, after I left the scene, a police car showed up.

The picture below shows approximately what I wore.

[Tina B.]

I remember a line in Easy Rider (old movie) That went something like "In America, you are free do do what you want, as long as what you want is what everyone else wants" Unfortunately I think it still applies. Gay, Transgendered, Hippie, or Goth, any of it can make you a target. Thats why so many of us are so good at hiding it, we learned it as children. I had a big brother that I shared a room with, and he teased me about everything I ever tried to do, from throwing a football to hitting a ball with a bat. I lived in fear of him finding out I cross dressed. Years later, I had to tell him about it when my ex wife brought it up in a custody battle while he was in the courtroom, very uncomfortable ride home. He was great, never said another word about it, and as far as I know, he took it to his grave. No one else in the family has ever said a word, and if he had told anyone I'm sure I would have heard about it by now. So some do out grow being jerks, but unfortunately some don't.
Tina B.

[Sara Jessica]

The whole thing is Darwinism at it's worse. Being truly civilized is the ability to rise above and not participate in such behavior. Clearly our country has a long way to go in this respect.

[DonniDarkness]

I was going to add something to this but Tina says it here:

Unfortunately I think it still applies. Gay, Transgendered, Hippie, or Goth, any of it can make you a target

This is a very valid point in this thread. Being any different at all makes us a target for this kind of bullying.

I learned to defend myself at a very young age, being a Gothic kid and gender bending in the way we do as andro goths, i had fallen prey to the bullies.
Of course that all stops when you make the school bully eat his teeth in front of everyone. Im usually not one for violent answers, but sometimes the only thing these guys understand is violence.
My family always made sure i could defend myself, i think they knew that i would face ridicule so they made extra sure i was capable of defending myself in these hate crime type scenarios

Bullying ends when you teach children how to stand up for themselves. Bullies feed on fear and physical power. If your cater to neither of these, then you leave them defenseless.

Another childhood survivor,
-Donni-

[CharleneCD]

I think the conclusions being made by the OP are dangerously close to the incorrect notion that Cross dressing automatically makes one homosexual.

As incorrect as the notion is, it msut be adreesed in that nature at times because the general public holds that notion to be true. To them, any feminine trait in a man equals gay. So when discussing any public reaction to trangender it unfortunatly applies even though we know its a load of crap.

As for the topic I can relate. Before even having a clue about who or what I was, I was singled out for bullying and abuse. Some people are just so insecure in themselves that they cant handle anything outside of a perfect well structured world. When they see something different they cant process and deal with it, so they lash out at it instead trying to force it into the mold they understand. In their eyes we are commiting a crime.

When you look at it in those terms it almost make you feel sorry for the dimwitted losers. Notice I said almost.

[sterling12]

I think that Bullying will always be a Problem. UNLESS we can somehow reach The People that Bully. We get to experience The Results, but The Problem lies with The Bullies! It is unfortunate that Young People, worried about their own sexuality, their ability to belong to a larger group and be accepted, will display such behavior. Society has to make them understand that such behavior is totally unacceptable, and there will be consequences.

There is more blame to be dispensed. For years an Uninvolved School System of Adults who were supposed to be monitoring and corrected such behaviors, were either negligent, uncaring, or tacitly encouraged such behavior. New Laws and Litigation have "blunted" some of their indifference! These Days loss of Jobs, Careers, and Potential Financial Ruin, are forcing them to pay attention!

Will it ever be Perfect for The Kid that's "Different?" I doubt it. You can't monitor The Average Kid 24/7, nor would that be wanted. But perhaps in The Future, we can diminish all The hassling down to some sort of Tolerable Levels. The Next Steps should be an active, early involvement by The School Systems. They need to start Identifying Kids at Risk, offering them counseling, helping them to find Support. If people want to involve Other Adults into making Change? I think our best Argument is "Try to imagine that this could happen to Your Kid!" "For one in twenty of you, it's a certainty!"

Peace and Love, Joanie

[GaleWarning]

At school, these days, students learn in Biology class that diversity is essential in ensuring the survival of a species, given that we do not know how circumstances will change and what genetic characteristics will prove to be important in coping with changing conditions.

Yet diversity is what students, at least at school, find most difficult to deal with. The situation may change later in life, especially for those who go to universities where "eccentricity" is expected and embraced, but conformity and the need to feel accepted are overwhelming desires for most teenagers.

No doubt about it, it’s a crime to be a feminine boy. How else can you explain the bullying by more masculine types?
This statement, expressed perhaps as the viewpoint of a victim, reveals an important misconception; that the school system and one's fellow students are right to allow bullying. In reality, the exact opposite is true! Most schools, in my experience have what they optimisticly call an "anti-harrassment policy", written in wonderful politically correct terminology in such a way that the Ministry of Education is happy that the school is dealing with bullying in it's classrooms and playground. In reality, everyone knows that the policy is not worth the paper it is written on; students have "rights" these days, and so the authorities feel hamstrung when it comes to actually dealing with bulllies. Teachers know that it is easier to simply turn a blind eye to what is happening in the lunchroom, the locker room and other eareas where bullying occurs. And the I, ME, MINE mentality which today has superceded the old-fashioned chivalry-laden attitude that we ought to be looking after one another. most importantly, students are told by their school counsellors NOT to confide in their parents, a trusted teacher or even a friend, so that loneliness is forced upon those being bullied. Is it any wonder, then, that the suicide figues are highest amongst the 15 - 24 year old age bracket!

Bullys are not macho. They are cowards who hide their own insecurity and lack of spiritual strength by trying to appear strong. Actually, they are weak in so many ways. That is why those being bullied are frequently told that the best way to stop the physical violence is to stand up to the bully and strike back. Unfortunately, too often, those in control only see the retaliation (or pretend that this is the case, in order not to have to stand up to the bully themselves) and the victim is doubly victimized.

Unfortuantely, these days, it is a lot easier to bully people mentally, rather than physically. The use of cell phones to send hate messages is a common one. Again, privacy laws, designed to "protect" people, can actually harm them in that cell phone companies are genrally not permitted to monitor messaging until it is too late for the victim.

Transparency, and a complete flip-flop in the attitudes of both institutions and the general population towards notions such as looking after people, rather than ignoring them; embracing diversity, rather than enforcing conformity; a willingness to stand up and be counted, rather than to hide or run away from an evil situation; ...

At the moment, it may seem that the bullied are on their own. The only thing they can do is to speak out loudly whenever their rights are violated, and trust that justice might prevail.

[JohnH]

One reads about yet another school administrator applying insane zero tolerance rules - what comes to mind is in 2009 October the Lansingburgh Central School District in Troy, NY suspended an Eagle Scout and National Guardsman Matthew Whalen for possessing a 5 cm [2 inch] keychain knife in a rescue kit locked up in the trunk of his car. What a misplaced sense of priorities - instead of dealing with bullies the school authorities administer the stupidest rules without any consideration of due process.

[Tima]

This statement, expressed perhaps as the viewpoint of a victim, reveals an important misconception; that the school system and one's fellow students are right to allow bullying. In reality, the exact opposite is true! Most schools, in my experience have what they optimisticly call an "anti-harrassment policy", written in wonderful politically correct terminology in such a way that the Ministry of Education is happy that the school is dealing with bullying in it's classrooms and playground. In reality, everyone knows that the policy is not worth the paper it is written on; students have "rights" these days, and so the authorities feel hamstrung when it comes to actually dealing with bulllies.

[SIZE="2"]I’m not sure where you’re from, but where I went to school there was no “anti-harassment policy,” nor was there a “Ministry of Education” to set guidelines for appropriate behavior. I think the issue of harassment is being addressed now, but it’s too late for the victims I mentioned, including me. Here in the U.S., nobody wishes to become involved with issues of feeling, perhaps because bullying extends into adult life, and “soft” isn’t an option. I would also mention the lack of education funding for implementing change, but that discussion is seriously off-topic.[/SIZE]

Bullys are not macho. They are cowards who hide their own insecurity and lack of spiritual strength by trying to appear strong. Actually, they are weak in so many ways. That is why those being bullied are frequently told that the best way to stop the physical violence is to stand up to the bully and strike back.

[SIZE="2"]What you say is true, but it doesn’t offer any comfort when you’re on the receiving end of abuse. As for the idea of striking back, that would be tantamount to surrender, a tacit acknowledgement that you are one of them. I refuse to do that.
[/SIZE]

I do have to state however, this is about effeminate boys or masculine girls. This is NOT dealing with cross dressing per se.
I think the conclusions being made by the OP are dangerously close to the incorrect notion that Cross dressing automatically makes one homosexual.

[SIZE="2"]All I can say in defense is that I’m an effeminate boy, and I express this inalterable fact through crossdressing. Everyone is different. I’m not saying crossdressing makes one homosexual. You either are homosexual or not, and crossdressing can be an outlet for effeminacy. Nothing is “automatic” in this world, unless you know something I don’t.[/SIZE]

[Shayna2008]

Yeah bullying is still alive and well unfortunately. One thing that I noticed that hasn't been mentioned yet in the use of social networking. Everything nowadays ends up on the internet. The humiliation one experiences is no longer limited to your classmates. Occasionally these videos get plastered across the major news networks or become viral. This makes the bullying even more traumatic. This also extends the consequences because future employers, etc can find this stuff too. Anther issue nowadays is that simply standing up to the bully puts the person taking a stand at great risk as well. If the bully's' face gets broken by a well-placed punch, the bullies parents take you to court and before you know it, you're sending the bully a check every month. You can go to the school for help, but...yeah, we've all heard how well the schools handle these things. It's a sad situation.

Personally, I think these schools just need to kick the bullies out - simply expel them. Better yet send some fines home to mommy and daddy. That'll get their attention and make them turn off their TV and hopefully inspire them to spend some time on their crummy kid. Some kind of stand needs to be taken, but everyone's so scared of hurting each others feelings anymore that it's impossible to develop any kind of law or policy that would have "teeth" and actually accomplish something.

[Frédérique]

I think the conclusions being made by the OP are dangerously close to the incorrect notion that Cross dressing automatically makes one homosexual…

[SIZE="2"]This statement comes dangerously close to inferring that there is something wrong with being homosexual. I know you didn’t mean it to sound that way, but it does “read” as such. To paraphrase John Lennon: "Imagine you’re homosexual, effeminate, and a crossdresser -- It’s easy if you try…" These are three things that are largely unacceptable in this overtly masculine era…[/SIZE]

That is why those being bullied are frequently told that the best way to stop the physical violence is to stand up to the bully and strike back.

[SIZE="2"]Well, I was bullied, I struck back, and the bullying stopped. The thing is, I had to step out of myself to do just that, and I never felt right about it. What did I become? It wasn’t me, and I had to come to the realization that the “boy” is there, for better or worse, mainly the latter. It took a while for me to suppress my masculinity and modify it with femininity. I like the results…[/SIZE]

[NicoleScott]

But then again most gay bashers are unbelievably stupid, or fearful cowards.

I do have to state however, this is about effeminate boys or masculine girls. This is NOT dealing with cross dressing per se.

I think the conclusions being made by the OP are dangerously close to the incorrect notion that Cross dressing automatically makes one homosexual.

Yes, the bullies and bashers are stupid cowards. But even those that know that crossdressers aren't all gay, it's like splitting hairs for them. It doesn't matter. It's girlish behavior, you're a sissy (who cares what kind of sissy), and queers are queers. And there are a lot of these insecure, ignorant bashers who really do think that crossdressers are gay. I didn't think the OP concluded that dressing=gay, but that the perception was out there. Of course, there ARE effeminate men and crossdressers who are gay, and when they are openly gay, the connection is made, and the stereotype goes on.

[VanessaVW]

I guess like many of you, I've been bullied too. Fag, homo, you name it. I did fight back though, never was truly beaten up. (Guess I'm quite lucky.) I grew up in a very redneck area, so maybe this was the way things were.

It's so incredibly sad that we've not done anything to others, yet receive so much vitriol.

[VanessaVW]

Yeah bullying is still alive and well unfortunately. One thing that I noticed that hasn't been mentioned yet in the use of social networking. Everything nowadays ends up on the internet. The humiliation one experiences is no longer limited to your classmates. Occasionally these videos get plastered across the major news networks or become viral. This makes the bullying even more traumatic. This also extends the consequences because future employers, etc can find this stuff too. Anther issue nowadays is that simply standing up to the bully puts the person taking a stand at great risk as well. If the bully's' face gets broken by a well-placed punch, the bullies parents take you to court and before you know it, you're sending the bully a check every month. You can go to the school for help, but...yeah, we've all heard how well the schools handle these things. It's a sad situation.

Personally, I think these schools just need to kick the bullies out - simply expel them. Better yet send some fines home to mommy and daddy. That'll get their attention and make them turn off their TV and hopefully inspire them to spend some time on their crummy kid. Some kind of stand needs to be taken, but everyone's so scared of hurting each others feelings anymore that it's impossible to develop any kind of law or policy that would have "teeth" and actually accomplish something.

Sounds like a good idea. I'll bet that these bullies pick on other kids also, not just LGBT kids. Where are their parents?

[Suzette Muguet de Mai]

My thoughts: When a system is stable, any change causes the system to adjust. A social network is stable as long as there is conformity to the network's rules. If something affects its stability then it too causes the system to adjust. This adjustment may mean the network outcasts the problem or the network adjusts to accommodate the change. Families, friends, work colleagues, suburb, towns, cities etc form a system which maybe stable with a set of rules for conformity. If one or a group do not conform to the "system" then they are subjected to alienation. The "system" is met with something different and if the system is closed then adjustments to accommodate cannot be sustained. If the system is open then outside factors contribute to the systems ability to adjust and accommodate.
The "masculinity" may mean many different things to various groups/families/cultures. If "masculinity" means the big, tough person who can handle alcohol, smoke umpteen cigarettes and never publicly displays fear or pain, then anyone who differs will most likely be a threat to the "masculine" person's own existence of belief. Their most likely way to deal with it maybe through bullying in one form or another. I call this a "closed system". Then I think anyone who differs physically or mentally as in world ideals will be a threat to them.
If the "masculine" person is able to think widely and does not fear in acknowledging being incorrect at times, and is tolerant of new ideas and is open to discussion, then they are an "open system". If these types of people can accept change they can become a true, real person and contribute to a growing society.
Bullies are closed systems. Like in nature, a closed system may not last for long. But they always evolve in some form.
What is wrong with my thoughts on the topic is most of us have feelings and we hurt when our existence is questioned. Some can handle this hurt, you are lucky. Some of us carry the hurt which prevents us from living freely, becoming false unto ourselves. Some of us learn to use this hurt to move on in life. Personally I find bullies and most people who are unable to see other people's views and accept them for who they are as silly. For me, a Crossdresser learns more about emotions and is more accepting of others as they are experiencing both sides of the sexes. I am a crossdresser, MTF and through this experience I am learning more about me. I truly feel sorry for the "masculine" person, through suppression how many will never understand themselves?

[JohnH]

I am not so depressed as when I had only a masculine side and I had my feminine side suppressed. Yes, I do feel sorry for the exclusively masculine person. I'm glad I allowed my feminine side to come through early enough so I currently don't feel the necessity of presenting myself as a woman to be able to pass as such - I'm not meaning to criticise anybody else.

My own feelings - men are forbidden in this society to wear skirts, dresses, and high heels. See if I'm right - the desire to simply wear skirts, dresses, and heels is suppressed so long there is a bursting point - finally there is an urge to feel and present oneself as a woman. At that point there is the irresistable urge to wear women's clothing, makeup, and adopt mannerisms of women.

On this forum it is really striking that there are more than 20 times the theads and postings for Male-to-Female Crossdressers as there are for the TransMasculine section. Women are not constrained of what they can wear except for being topfree, and typically do not reach that bursting point.

[Debutante]

Men have been acculturated, [the military model is the extreme], in a very fixed box of masculinity, and patriarchal attutudes.
Feminity challenges that masculinity and upsets that structure... but bullying is taught by others as a response.
We need a culture that allows diverse expression, protects it, and provides sanctions for hurting, denying,
etc. anyone, who is male born, who expresses their femininity.
Supportive women, gay males, lesbians and many other can be allies in this. Let us stand up for this!
And if you are male to female crossdresser in your everyday male mode, stand up for crossdressers and feminine males in
any way that you can when this hurtful behavior is before you!