An open message to all Transmen (and ALL crossdressers on this site)

[Frédérique]

[SIZE="2"]I was driving by this somewhat segregated section of the forum today, and I noticed this title, which happened to be on top, visible to all:[/SIZE]

"Does it make you angry (Transmen Only)"

[SIZE="2"]Hmmm...what makes transmen angry? I read the thread, specifically the OP, even though I was apparently forbidden to do so... [/SIZE]

That so many on here attribute negative traits to males? I keep seeing these posts in which there is just so much negativity about anything that is considered "masculine" or "manly" (either by the poster or society in general) and so many trying to define what masculine means.
I understand that some people on these forums want to disassociate themselves from anything masculine because of how they identify, which is fine but I don't understand why they then need to put it down. It seems like they completely forget transmen are on these forums as well and that by making negative statements about men, they are making them about you.

[SIZE="2"]Interesting. I wanted to respond, but I couldn’t. I’m guessing the author of this thread wandered over to my side of the fence, read a few things that were disturbing to that person, and felt the need to discuss the issue at hand with one’s peers. Nothing wrong with that, but why exclude all others from responding, except transmen, I mean? Is this male behavior in action? You know, no girls allowed here at the clubhouse? That bothers me, because I’m feeling a bit guilty. I may be seen as the ring-leader of male-bashing, or a proponent of anti-male behavior, so why not discuss the problem with someone at the source? Please don’t exclude others. This is a discussion forum, and I don’t like to see barriers being thrown up between one section and another – it makes me feel like I’m living in a divided camp, where different types of transgendered people co-mingle only according to the rules. Tear down this wall! Aren’t we all in the minority, in one way or another? Don’t negate meaningful discussion before it has a chance to begin...

It’s only natural that someone who seeks to embrace the feminine would also seek to disassociate oneself with certain types of male behavior. At the same time, I can understand how someone actively turning away from femininity would wish to embrace (or wrestle) with all things masculine. I get it, and I can certainly see how male-bashing would disturb the latter type of crossdresser. Boys will be boys (you hear that all the time), and I’m a boy, pure and simple. Of course, it’s a little more complex than that, but, in my case at least, it’s an ongoing process of discovery – I need an outlet to discuss various points of contention, and this board provides that, along with catharsis. If I’m “putting down” male behavior, I’m trying to do it as gently as possible, avoiding stepping on anyone’s toes, while folding a little humor into the mix. I’m aware of everyone on this site, from administrators to newbies, and I wish to make friends, not enemies. I’ve been around all types of males my whole life, I’m an inveterate observer (a visual artist), so I have plenty of things to talk about. In case you didn’t catch what I said earlier, I am most definitely MALE...


Let me try to redress (an unintentional pun) the balance a bit. I could write glowingly about all the supportive, strong, manly males I have encountered in my life, but that would be largely out of place in the MtF section, where you will most often find me. I guess I can do that here, so I shall. Don’t look at my avatar – think of me as 100% male. I’m doing this for your sake...

My father was a strong influence on me up until his death in 1999. We were very close, but he was hard to get close to. He was very masculine, and he moved in masculine circles. I knew all his friends, in fact I knew more males than females growing up. I had a 6th grade teacher, a real man’s man from Wyoming, who was fantastic – I still think about him all the time. He had me doing all sorts of boy stuff I never knew I could do, like play football, expand my mind about personal discipline (he had me read a book about West Point, for example), and, perhaps most importantly, he got me to stand up and speak in front of the class (I had a speech impediment). I loved the guy, but I never met another one like him. I also worked on a farm with a very masculine guy (the owner) who thought of me as his long-lost son, and we got along splendidly. I did have some excellent male teachers in art school, but, of course, they were a little more towards the center of gender incorporation, and not overtly “manly” as such. Still, they were boyish to a fault, and I loved them for that...

All I’m trying to say is don’t be exclusionist in your thinking, or posting. Why didn’t you come over to the MtF section and plunk your thread down among the protagonists? Were you afraid of gathering responses at odds with your particular take on things? I can understand, but, if you wish to learn why something is taking place, you really should face the music, even though it may be painful to your ears. Boldly going where transmen fear to tread (I know, some of you visit on occasion) is, in itself a form of male behavior. Males by birth will recognize this and welcome you – I don’t speak for all MtF crossdressers, but we do have the ability to adjust our responses according to who we are “talking” to. I am very aware that there are transmen among us, and I’m surprised that others are (or were) unaware of that obvious fact.

You know, if you did some female-bashing over in your neck of the woods, I would get a chuckle out of it. Don’t think for a second that I admire or try to emulate ALL women, OK? I’ve met some doozies in my life, just like everyone else. Men are OK, and I certainly don’t hate all men. If you were offended by something I said, I apologize – you aren’t the first person who has called me on this, you know. I’m acutely aware of everything I write, and I think about every word before I submit something. At heart, I’m just trying to find kindred spirits among the panoply of human (alternative) existence represented on this site. Until places like this came along, I was very lonely. As I said before, my father, a stabilizing male influence, has been absent for eleven years. I loved him, and I miss him – without him I have no male presence in my life. Since I am his surviving male representative, I shall now emulate him by extending my hand in friendship to you, and all other transmen on this site. I’m sorry my handshake is not as strong as my father’s, but consider the source...

Sincerely,
Frédérique (you can call me Freddy)

PS – I’m sorry for the length of this message. I was going to send it as a PM, but I thought it would be more useful as a new thread...[/SIZE]

[Tamara Croft]

An open message to all Transmen (and ALL crossdressers on this site)

I was driving by this somewhat segregated section of the forum today...<snip>

Please don’t exclude others.<snip>

First of all, I'm completely offended by your title, an open message to transmen and ALL CD'ers... so what are us GG's then, chopped liver? You come in this section spouting about feeling segregated and moaning that you can't post in a thread, (boo hoo), preaching to others not to exclude others, but then blatantly leave out GG's, so you've just done EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!!

As for this section being segregated, it is not segregated at all, it is open to ALL members to post in, unless the OP specifies otherwise, which is in the rules and pertains to most sections on this board. DD's post proved a point, some MTF's just can't keep out of anything that states they aren't allowed to post in it, posting like 'I'm not a transman, so I hope you don't mind me posting' or those with their nose out of joint starting threads like these to stir up the pot even more, which is what you have done. I'm not closing this thread, but it's not going to go down well, I can tell you that right now.

I think you have some cheek even posting it, talking about segregation and being left out.. what a load of crap

Oh.. and to log out only 5 minutes after posting this thread

[Areyan]

i believe the thread you are talking about was specifically addressed to transmen only... tell me, what is wrong with asking the transmen (only) something in their own forum space? really... you're pushing MALE privilege here now with your status as a cding man? lmfao... ok.

good grief... where is the facepalm emoticon?



oh there it is

such idiocy doesn't require much further comment..

[Gerrijerry]

I aggree that a person should be able to just post to those that she or he would like to and only those. That is the reason I would think for the different areas. If she or he wanted everyone to jump in on what they post then it would have been worded differently. So if a transmen wants to talk only to other transmen who would clearly understand better then others what is been said why the big fuss. How many CD's know that there wives will never understand how they feel. How many TS woman will never be understood. how many Gay or lesbian, FtoM or MtoF.
We all have many things in common but somethings are just not understood from group to group. We all have different things that will never be really understood by others. So saying that it is incorrect for a person just to want to hear from those that might understand better is not too much to ask.

[Fraye]

Um....there's segregated sections of this site, and it's by design. Don't believe me? Go ask to join the FAB forum.

Okay. Now go ahead and make a thread about trying to join the FAB forum and how it's all exclusionary and discriminatory and unfair, and see how that goes over.

It's cool, I'll wait here.

What you really meant to say was "Don't make a thread that I can see and read and have an opinion about but then tell me I can't participate."

It's like our shared need to fight for acceptance and the space to be ourselves has turned some of us into these little self-centered monsters who think that fight means running around acting like they can say, do, and think whatever they want without worrying about how it affects other people.

I'd say it embarrasses me, but I like myself pretty much and the bad behavior of people who share a group with me won't change that. I'm pretty embarrassed for those who act this way though.

[Kathryn Martin]

First of all, I'm completely offended by your title, an open message to transmen and ALL CD'ers... so what are us GG's then, chopped liver? You come in this section spouting about feeling segregated and moaning that you can't post in a thread, (boo hoo), preaching to others not to exclude others, but then blatantly leave out GG's, so you've just done EXACTLY THE SAME THING!!!

As for this section being segregated, it is not segregated at all, it is open to ALL members to post in, unless the OP specifies otherwise, which is in the rules and pertains to most sections on this board. DD's post proved a point, some MTF's just can't keep out of anything that states they aren't allowed to post in it, posting like 'I'm not a transman, so I hope you don't mind me posting' or those with their nose out of joint starting threads like these to stir up the pot even more, which is what you have done. I'm not closing this thread, but it's not going to go down well, I can tell you that right now.

I think you have some cheek even posting it, talking about segregation and being left out.. what a load of crap

Oh.. and to log out only 5 minutes after posting this thread

Wow, with the greatest of respect for an administrator of a discussion board this post is awfully inappropriate. Please note that you were the one that used the word "segregation" which has a very distinct and special meaning for those of us that live in and are aware of North American history. What Freddy refers to is far from "segregation" and is pointing out a flaw in the system so to speak that permits in an open forum the silencing of opinions and comments by "others". That is a point to be taken seriously and worthy of debate.

Secondly, Freddy emphasized in her post how much she owes to the male role models in her life. She makes the distinction between good and bad male and masculine role models. Again with respect, I have spent the last 48 years of my life becoming the best man I could be against all of the odds of being woman. Why is it, that members on this board think I have nothing to share about that process, when in fact that is exactly the process my brothers here are going through. All that with one exception, I have physical bits, that I consider rather irrelevant. I wish people would spend the time really reading what people have to say instead of storming forward on every perceived slight or insult. It is shameful and unworthy of a community that wants to be understanding of each other.

i believe the thread you are talking about was specifically addressed to transmen only... tell me, what is wrong with asking the transmen (only) something in their own forum space? really... you're pushing MALE privilege here now with your status as a cding man? lmfao... ok.

good grief... where is the facepalm emoticon?



oh there it is

such idiocy doesn't require much further comment..

You say you are LGBT proud. There is nothing wrong having a discussion with those that have the same views as you for support and reinforcement. But in an open forum? You like it when someone says we want you to see what we say critically about you but we will not let you answer to the charge.

Also don't just call someone an idiot. Maybe you just did not understand what that person had to say. You will likely answer me but you did! Well, how can you take the chance? Calling someone an idiot is the subtlest from of murder.

[Babeba]

I think that the issue here, Freddy, is that sometimes people need a chance to express something they're frustrated with to and with other people who are at the same place (mentally, physically, emotionally, genderly?) as they are, and share the experience as a way of knowing that they're not alone. It's the reason for this whole forum at all, to support anyone affected by cross dressing and transgender issues. It's entirely appropriate for someone to ask for a certain type of poster to answer their thread.

I know that with the stories you've shared about the important men in your lives you're trying to in some ways redress the topic of the post, but it's a different sentiment than that which DD felt was necessary with her original post; the intent is different.

With your permission, I'd like to copy your stories of important men in your life (because I think that's a positive and healthy thing) and start a thread in Loved Ones for anyone who would like to share that positive perspective of of people they love? Because I think that this is something you wanted to point out, and I think that's probably the best part of the forum for it. Just as I think it's perfectly acceptable to request a certain style of person to answer a thread one has started, I think it's equally acceptable to be inspired to start a completely new and positive thread based on a tangent of an existing thread.

[Tamara Croft]

Wow, with the greatest of respect for an administrator of a discussion board this post is awfully inappropriate. Please note that you were the one that used the word "segregation" which has a very distinct and special meaning for those of us that live in and are aware of North American history.

Inappropriate? sorry, but this THREAD is inappropriate and you referring to me as an administrator and not a member is inappropriate too! As for your American comment, excuse me, but I'm BRITISH, so it has no relevance what so ever to me. My point was made about starting a thread moaning about having certain members only posting, well this is the transmen section and if members want only certain replies, then they can.

As for the FAB comment, yes that is specifically for certain members only and there are other private sections for all the other members here. Anyone else want to start moaning, be my guest

Please NOTE, I used the word 'segregated' several times in my previous post and I also used the word 'segregation' as it was appropriate to the sentence I was writing, maybe if you actually READ my post, you would have actually noticed

[DemonicDaughter]

First off, the thread was started by ME and I'm NOT a transman. I'm a GG asking a specific group of individuals a question. Oddly, I wanted to hear from a specific group in order to learn THEIR point of view. Who's to say I wouldn't have opened the discussion further on the MtF section but apparently I don't have to. Aside from the fact that there's endless threads on here already concerning male/female traits from MtF so I simply need to do a quick search to find those answers. In truth, my thread was started by a thread in the MtF section in which several MtFs had ALREADY answered and therefore I wasn't as interested in reiterating things.

That you feel so excluded from a question that you can answer in several threads readily available to you is just silly. There's nothing the matter with getting a specific groups opinion. People do it all the time when asking GGs questions or just TS questions, so on and so forth. Do you post about those threads too? Or is it just the ones where someone was asked NOT to respond and got bashed because they did? There's nothing the matter with asking anyone a specific question. I don't ask my mechanic questions on health concerns, nor the plumber on how to cook something. So why would I ask the MtF a question about how the FtMs feel?! Especially when you'll all answer anyhow...

[ReineD]

There's nothing wrong with keeping a thread open for posting to a specific group. It's the only way to really listen to what they have to say, free of debate. I think all their thoughts would have been lost if the thread had been open to the spouting and bickering that some (not all) of our members habitually engage in.

[Areyan]

listen, Kathryn... this person got their heckles up about a post that had nothing to do with them... i call idiocy when i see it tyvm, i wasn't calling anyone any names - just in case you're not clear - idiocy means a stupid act/thought/deed... an idiot is the word you are saying i called someone.... reading properly before you quote someone may help.

[Rianna Humble]

Wow, with the greatest of respect for an administrator of a discussion board this post is awfully inappropriate. Please note that you were the one that used the word "segregation"

I was driving by this somewhat segregated section

You are perfectly right Frédérique did not say "segregation", she said "segregated".

Now perhaps you can explain to a semantics expert in what way segregated is unrelated to segregation?

[Tamara Croft]

You are perfectly right Frédérique did not say "segregation", she said "segregated".

I'd like to know how she actually missed the few times I said 'segregated'.. maybe one was just being facetious??

[tanyalynn51]

It seems to come down to one thing here- the definitition of respect. We here need to give each other the respect that others outside the community deny us. What do I feel that means? One, getting over ourselves with the labels here in the community. Not that I mean not to respectfully acknowledge our differences, but to not tear each other apart. We're an entire culture (or sub- culture) here. We need to deal with how we are different from the people out there. As far as the friends and family on here who are involved and trying to understand and support, I include this. And did I here a rather nasty argument between 2 people from the US and Britain? Just what the heck did that have to do with the rest of this? Ive never disrespected a moderator, and am not trying to now, but really, Tamara. That all said, we do still have differences, in exactly who we are, cd, ts mtf, ts ftm, gg, you get my point. It seems that there are not only an individual forum for each group of us, but also plenty that we can share stuff in common. I wont say Ive never posted on a TM forum, but only by accident, and appologized and said feel free to remove it.
Ill some up by saying that on this thread, it seemed like there were some cheap shots being taken by some. I know we arent perfect, but if we're here to help each other, we've got to do better that that.

[Tamara Croft]

And did I here a rather nasty argument between 2 people from the US and Britain? Just what the heck did that have to do with the rest of this? Ive never disrespected a moderator, and am not trying to now, but really, Tamara.

Excuse me, but you say MY name and what I said, but you fail to mention that Kathryn started the about North American history, which has bugger all to do with this thread, so don't push the blame on me for that tyvm Did you actually read this?

Please note that you were the one that used the word "segregation" which has a very distinct and special meaning for those of us that live in and are aware of North American history.

If people are going to turn this into a Tamara said this thread, I'm locking it. Try reading the goddamn posts and quit throwing blame at me, because I'm not bloody having it!!!

[DemonicDaughter]

Seeing as this was suppose to be a PM that you turned into a thread, please let me respond in kind.

I read the thread, specifically the OP, even though I was apparently forbidden to do so...

You were not forbidden to read it, just asked not to respond.

Interesting. I wanted to respond, but I couldn’t. I’m guessing the author of this thread wandered over to my side of the fence, read a few things that were disturbing to that person, and felt the need to discuss the issue at hand with one’s peers.

I'm a GG, so I'm not the one wandering to your side of the fence. Its rather vice versa. I didn't "read a few things that were disturbing" I read a lot of things that excluded transmen and wondered if the reason they didn't respond was because they didn't care, didn't notice or didn't feel it pertained to them. They are only my peers in that we are in the GLBT community and/or of the same generation.

Nothing wrong with that, but why exclude all others from responding, except transmen, I mean? Is this male behavior in action? You know, no girls allowed here at the clubhouse? That bothers me, because I’m feeling a bit guilty.

How could it be a "no girls allowed" when the original post was made by me? A GG! You know it does help to at least find out where the person is coming from before you assume that they are excluding you. You would have done much better leaving this as a PM.

I may be seen as the ring-leader of male-bashing, or a proponent of anti-male behavior, so why not discuss the problem with someone at the source?

Because its already predominant on the boards and I already have numerous examples of MtFs opinions. I wanted those of the transmen because I so rarely see their responses and thought I'd like to hear THEIR thoughts.

Tear down this wall! Aren’t we all in the minority, in one way or another? Don’t negate meaningful discussion before it has a chance to begin...

There already had been a discussion about this very subject several times over in the MtF section and again, being the "source" wasn't about why people male bash but how the TRANSMEN felt about it, I didn't think any MtFs needed to respond.

It’s only natural that someone who seeks to embrace the feminine would also seek to disassociate oneself with certain types of male behavior.

Yes, and I stated I understood that. It wasn't what I was asking the transmen. I was asking specifically if it bothered them to read it and if they encountered it outside of forums. Are you sure you read my post?

If I’m “putting down” male behavior, I’m trying to do it as gently as possible, avoiding stepping on anyone’s toes, while folding a little humor into the mix.

Then my original thread had nothing to do with you as it was specifically dealing with how transmen felt about the negative attitudes towards masculine traits on the forums.

Let me try to redress (an unintentional pun) the balance a bit. I could write glowingly about all the supportive, strong, manly males I have encountered in my life, but that would be largely out of place in the MtF section, where you will most often find me. I guess I can do that here, so I shall. Don’t look at my avatar – think of me as 100% male. I’m doing this for your sake...

My sake? Again, you're assuming I was a transman and would need some sort of talking to about positive male roles? Don't the transmen generally see masculinity and males as a positive thing to begin with? Why would they need that reinforced for their sake? I think it makes better sense to address not role models that they don't know and more distinctive behaviors, which, again, was why I was wondering if it bothered THEM to read the negative comments on the forums.

All I’m trying to say is don’t be exclusionist in your thinking, or posting.

Yet you did the very same thing with your post title and excluding us GGs despite the fact that a GG is who started the original thread. Pot meet kettle.

Why didn’t you come over to the MtF section and plunk your thread down among the protagonists?

Because the inspiration for my thread already existed there and had its answers. This thread actually had NOTHING to do with the MtFs on the forums other than the fact that they can project a lot of negativity towards the masculine.

Is it truly so difficult for some of you to grasp that my thread wasn't a personal vendetta or attack but simply a "why don't transmen respond here" question?!

Were you afraid of gathering responses at odds with your particular take on things?

If I was afraid, why would I post in a section I know is completely visible to everyone? And why would it only be the MtFs I'd have to fear? I could have gotten just as bad of a response from any transman than I can anyone else. I don't fear answers, or I wouldn't ask the questions.

I can understand, but, if you wish to learn why something is taking place, you really should face the music, even though it may be painful to your ears.

Why would asking if something makes a group of people angry be "facing the music" or "painful" to my ears?! That has honestly got to be the oddest response to a thread... oh right.... again you thought I was a transman trying to purposefully exclude you.

we do have the ability to adjust our responses according to who we are “talking” to.

Though apparently unaware of who that person is.

You know, if you did some female-bashing over in your neck of the woods, I would get a chuckle out of it.

You find female bashing humorous? Oh well that just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Btw, my "neck of the woods" is the GG and Loved Ones section. I'm sure its just fine and dandy to trash females over there. How about I not trash anyone particular group but instead just the individuals who don't quite grasp particular concepts like looking past a single thread before they've decided they know who you are?

If you were offended by something I said, I apologize – you aren’t the first person who has called me on this, you know.

Paranoid much? Actually, my thread had NOTHING to do with you but rather the general negative note on masculinity in general on the forums. This does include GGs who male bash too.

... I shall now emulate him by extending my hand in friendship to you, and all other transmen on this site.

By your standards, because my group (GGs) was specifically excluded in this thread, should I assume that this "hand in friendship" is not extended to me? After all, its offered to transmen exclusively.

I would however like to use this particular thread to point out that even the most painfully aware writer can easily exclude someone or, more pointedly, be unaware of the full scope of their audience. That was rather the point of my thread. That although I could understand a MtF wanting to distance themselves as much as possible from anything masculine, I wondered if the FtMs ever took it offensively. See how YOU and the MtFs didn't NEED to answer that question?

PS – I’m sorry for the length of this message. I was going to send it as a PM, but I thought it would be more useful as a new thread...

You really should have kept it a PM. It would have saved you a lot of typing and a whole thread of people being pissed off.

[Kathryn Martin]

To all who had something to say to me in this thread. Sadly, you are in the process of shutting me up. A situation I have found myself in many times in my life before because I am different. Same here, I disagree with the very forceful comments to Frederique's posts especially if punctuated with pissed off smilie faces, calling her comments and mine BS with smilie faces with BS flags and very sharp sarcasm etc. What is this, a political party, what do you draw from ridiculing those that differ in opinion with you? I understand you have strong feelings on this topic. Consequently, I don't think it is appropriate to have any further discussions. Sad. I've just been bullied.

[Fraye]

Way to trivialize people who truly are being bullied.

Maybe the next time someone disagrees with me I should call them a racist.

[Frédérique]

[SIZE="2"]Well, nothing’s better left unsaid, as they used to say...

Looks like I kicked the proverbial hornet’s nest.

The only thing that bothers me is this: Have you ever thought about growing up?

BTW, I always log off after five minutes or so.

I’d love to say more, but nobody’s listening.

Thanks, Kathryn, for trying to help... [/SIZE]

[Lucy_Bella]

If people are going to turn this into a Tamara said this thread, I'm locking it. Try reading the goddamn posts and quit throwing blame at me, because I'm not bloody having it!!!

I have been missing out.... Tamara < pat on the back > you are very over worked!! But Dammit I do miss your rants!! I wish there was an american version of you that was single..

[mistunderstood]

Why don't you M2F's take this fight to your side of the fence. I am sick of M2F's coming over and starting crap on our side. Stop dissing us on our own side. Yes I sayed M2F's. It keep happening over and over. Please go away and leave us alone.
For the M2F's who are not causing problems we welcome you and your questions. To GG's and others we welcome you and love you for the support you give us.

[Lucy_Bella]

I'm sorry I meant no harm to anyone and I am not here to start trouble, I was directing that at my dream girl.. I can delete if it offends anyone?

[Tamara Croft]

[SIZE="2"]The only thing that bothers me is this: Have you ever thought about growing up?[/SIZE]

I grew up a long time ago, seems you did not, otherwise you wouldn't have started a petty, childish thread about what you can and cannot post in. I see things in my job everyday that makes me thankful I'm not like that and it breaks my heart everyday when one of my service users is that little bit worse, or doesn't want to get out of bed, or feels like there is nothing left to live for, so don't you DARE come on this forum again and moan about threads you can't post in. You are beyond childish and seriously in need of 'getting a life'. And with that said, this thread is done!!!