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  1. #1
    Silver Member Inna's Avatar
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    Crossdresser or Transgender or ?

    I know that this topic may get us into heated debate but heated debate is good in good intentions. I often read a post about a crossdresser who solely identifies with just crossdressing and that is that, to later read same person finally embracing idea of something more happening in their life. The desire to venture outside of norm and present as an opposite sex in it self is predecessor to transgender condition. To express femininity by male is to directly come into embrace with the opposite set of ingredients and therefore to state the societal dislike and rebel against masculine character. Its just the clothes you say, no, it is always more than that, the image of femininity and assimilation with feminine form. I personally feel that all gender flux specific tendencies will eventually surface as transgender and the only difference will be in an individual finally coming to terms with nagging force within or such individual resisting this urge until his demise. So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?
    Last edited by Inna; 10-19-2010 at 08:48 PM.

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    Transgender is an umbrella term created by the community for:
    -Transexuals
    -Crossdressers
    -Transvestites
    -Drag Kings
    -Drag Queens
    -Gender Queer People
    -Androgynous People
    -Effeminate Men
    -Butch Women

    and anyone else who does not specifically fit the social norms of being gender male or gender female.

    So to answer your question, if your a crossdresser, you are transgendered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosuto View Post
    Transgender is an umbrella term created by the community for:
    -Transexuals
    -Crossdressers
    -Transvestites
    -Drag Kings
    -Drag Queens
    -Gender Queer People
    -Androgynous People
    -Effeminate Men
    -Butch Women

    and anyone else who does not specifically fit the social norms of being gender male or gender female.

    So to answer your question, if your a crossdresser, you are transgendered.
    Ditto for me, and i think those that refuse to accept this are not in complete acceptance with themselves. There is no reason to be afraid of the term transgenderism.
    People need to get past those 5 letters at the beginning. The term IMO is a spectrum with the "i'm just a CD at one end, and the "was born the wrong gender" at the other and each individual falls along it somewhere in between. In fact, most of us are on a continous progression from where we started.
    But that is just my perspective.
    mj (Cassie)

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    When I first joined this forum, I refused to accept the term "Transgender " today I perfer it more than cross dresser.. Although it is an umbrella term it doen't bother me anymore. Whats so bad about it?

    These are examples compareing transgender to other terms

    You can be Gay and crossdress? Ok , I think you could have any sexual preferance and crossdress .. The question is, does that make you a transgender? I believe it can just because you are attracted to the same sex shouldn't automatically remove you from being a trangender. There are also Gay people who dress appropriate to thier gender.

    Now I am in no way dumping on anyones sexual preferance and as it says below I am no expert either..But through ignorance ( my own ) I related the term transgender to being a Gay or a Bi cder.. I was corrected and I was wrong I would also like to add I have NO predjudice to my Gay sisters here..We are all in this together.

    Like a few here have mentioned my dressing grew after my seperation from my wife, I have grown to accept my Fem side and have no desires to futher it BUT I do dress more often.. I consider it Emulating a female rather that acting as one due to being in the closet for the most part. I feel the differance between acting as woman and emulating one is in the desire of the Cder. Emulating a woman is a cder who is only into the visual, not going out usally alone and in the closet ( no saying all are this way but I am ) Acting as a woman is Visual , going out dressed and doing things that are accoiated to what women do, shopping , getting nails done, hair dyed etc
    I do not!! Claim to be an expert on any topic, when I post a new thread or reply on any thread my imput is strickly that of a crossdresser. Not to offend Gay people , Transexuals or any other life style, I am only commenting on one of my own.

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    All this talk about labels... here's the one I prefer.

    Me.

    Let me explain. I am a crossdresser, that is true. Would I like to transition? I don't know, somedays the answer is yes, other days no. Even as a little kid, I never fit neatly into any one group. I was never the popular kid, didn't fit in with the "nerdy" kids, I was just basically what you'd call a loner. As I've gotten older, I have come to accept this as well as my dressing. Maybe others need a label to define themselves, and I'm fine with that, but I am just fine being myself.

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    I have checked myself periodically to see if I am a transexual or a crossdresser and I know I am a crossdresser. I don't see myself as a woman on the inside. I think that is the necessary component to have. I love getting dressed and trying to perfect the "Fab" side, but I also don't want to end my so called "Drab" aspect either. I enjoy being me: a guy who loves dressing up and what that entails. I never ever want to physically remove or alter who I am to match internally who I feel that I am because inwardly and outwardly I am in sync. I am a guy inside and out, I just love 4 inch heels. LOL

  7. #7
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexia Elliot View Post
    I personally feel that all gender flux specific tendencies will eventually surface as transgender and the only difference will be in an individual finally coming to terms with nagging force within or such individual resisting this urge until his demise. So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?
    I will assume that you meant to write transsexual since transgender covers all behaviour that transcends the bounds of the gender binary stereotype.

    I cannot agree that all gender flux behaviour will eventually lead to transsexuality since there is a growing body of evidence that transsexuality is biological. Unfortunately, the most convincing evidence has to be taken post mortem so I am in no hurry to provide that from myself

    Can cross-dressing precede transsexuality? IMNSHO no because I believe that you are either born TS or you are not.

    Can cross-dressing precede the acceptance that you are TS? Most definitely yes. When I finally gave in to the need to wear the right clothing, I was still fighting the fact that I am TS.

    Can cross-dressing precede the decision to seek help for transition? Again yes, either as in my case or where the person has circumstances that weigh against an early transition.

    Is cross-dressing a valid ingredient in being transsexual? This, to me, depends upon your standpoint. It did not make me transsexual but rather was an outworking of my gradual acceptance of who I am. To many around me, I probably still appear to be cross-dressing, but is this the case given that I am in my RLE?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Morgan View Post
    No, no one has been able to prove much of anything although there is no shortage of theories. For me, it is enough to say I am what I am. I've always wanted to be a girl and I never will be. The best I can do is try as hard as I can within the framework of a life lived. I crossdress, but it is by no means all there is to me.
    I'm not so sure as you that there is no proof of anything in this matter (see above). You are at a great place when you can say as you did "I am what I am", but it makes me sad when you say that you can never be what you have always wanted to be - a girl.

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica renee View Post
    All this talk about labels... here's the one I prefer.

    Me.

    Let me explain. I am a crossdresser, that is true. Would I like to transition? I don't know, somedays the answer is yes, other days no. Even as a little kid, I never fit neatly into any one group. I was never the popular kid, didn't fit in with the "nerdy" kids, I was just basically what you'd call a loner. As I've gotten older, I have come to accept this as well as my dressing. Maybe others need a label to define themselves, and I'm fine with that, but I am just fine being myself.
    I applaud anyone who just wants to be themself. There are differences in our experiences, however, and labels are a useful way to classify those differences provided that they are not used to divide.

    You cross dress and (most of the time) that is enough for you - we have in common that we wear what society would say is clothing for the opposite gender.

    I was born in the wrong body, but have only recently come to admit the full force of what that means. We are both part of the same family although not identical.

    When we concentrate on that which unites us rather than that which divides us, we become stronger. On the other hand, you and I have different support needs and the knowledge that I am TS helps others to understand my needs. For that reason I do not reject the label out of hand.

    When I talk of support, I do not mean acting as a mutual admiration society - I have been glad when people have pointed out that something I said or was about to do was mistaken. That too is support.


    Quote Originally Posted by charlotte_sp View Post
    tiresome BS
    I don't think that categorising a question as "tiresome BS" is in any way helpful to anyone other than the person writing those words.

    The OP introduces the topic by saying she has read several people who claimed to be nothing more than CD and later realised that they were more. This then gives the context of the question that you describe as
    Quote Originally Posted by charlotte_sp View Post
    broad, condescending generalizations.
    I believe this to be a genuine question borne out of valid observations and a desire to understand and therefore cannot agree when you say that
    Quote Originally Posted by charlotte_sp View Post
    This question reinforces the idea that there is only one way to be trans:

    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 10-20-2010 at 05:05 AM. Reason: Avoid multipost
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    Aspiring Member Samantha_Smile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica renee View Post
    All this talk about labels... here's the one I prefer.

    Me.

    Let me explain. I am a crossdresser, that is true. Would I like to transition? I don't know, somedays the answer is yes, other days no. Even as a little kid, I never fit neatly into any one group. I was never the popular kid, didn't fit in with the "nerdy" kids, I was just basically what you'd call a loner. As I've gotten older, I have come to accept this as well as my dressing. Maybe others need a label to define themselves, and I'm fine with that, but I am just fine being myself.
    Never a truer word luv.
    I'm not keen on the label thing either, Ive never liked pigeon holing in any aspect whether it's music, films, books or my gender status.
    But Ive come to realise that the labels, while frustrating to have one 'stuck' to you, they are also very convenient as a means of description.
    Try to explain to someone what a particular band sound like these days and you get a stream of non linked garbage
    "Post pop-punk new wave emo"...... Gazuntite

    I just think the TG labels should be more precise to avoid insult or confusion.
    For example, a transvestic fetishist, is very differnt to one who identifies as Cogender, and these again are not the same as a drag queen.When these things can be differentiated by 100% of the population, then maybe things can move on.

    Untill then, do some more reading here http://tiny.cc/29iu0
    Samantha -x-

  9. #9
    Member Sophie_C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosuto View Post
    Transgender is an umbrella term created by the community for:
    -Transexuals
    -Crossdressers
    -Transvestites
    -Drag Kings
    -Drag Queens
    -Gender Queer People
    -Androgynous People
    -Effeminate Men
    -Butch Women

    and anyone else who does not specifically fit the social norms of being gender male or gender female.

    So to answer your question, if your a crossdresser, you are transgendered.
    Exactly what is this according to, other than yourself?

    I only consider men with an inherent female identity and women with an inherent male identity to be transgender, and for everything I have ever read in terms of the medical community and law, for the matter, it's seen in the same way.

    I do not consider fetishistic crossdressers/transvestites who do it for a sexual high, gay boys who like to put on war paint for kicks (drag queens / kings), androgynous people (so David Bowie is transgender now? LOL), effeminate men and butch women (a sizable part of the gay community who would definitely disagree) to be transgender since all of that has ZERO to do with gender identity.

    You could put all of them in a big bucket called "trans" but that is not the same as "transgender." No.

    Now, to answer the initial question, crossdressing can be one of the early steps in one coming to an awareness that they have an incongruent gender identity. It also can be for all sorts of different reasons, having nothing to do with it. I have no doubt there are plenty of crossdressers who are transgendered that put the breaks on self-understanding due to fears, family, loved ones, etc; but that doesn't mean that there aren't crossdressers who are definitely with a congruent gender identity who just do it for kicks.

  10. #10
    What is normal anyway? Rianna Humble's Avatar
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    Sophie, If you substitute the word transsexual for transgender in your definition then you are right, but only then.

    You say that trans is not the same as transgender and claim medical authority for that. Perhaps you should tell the UK's National Health Service that they don't know what they are talking about when they define the terms on http://www.nhs.uk/livewell/transheal...soverview.aspx
    Last edited by Rianna Humble; 10-20-2010 at 10:41 AM.
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  11. #11
    Silver Member Inna's Avatar
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    Lesson learned

    Thank you ladies for your heartfelt thoughts, as I set out to understand our intricate conditions which in every case are as individual as individuals them selves, one specific idea struck me deep. We often shrug when thought of a label and hate the ideals of such because we ourselves feel grander than just a selfless condition. When I think of someone in strictly intellectual means I label the individual into a box, I feel this is what our mind does intrinsically. When we learn in college we box information into retrievable storage bin. But when I approach a person with loving embrace and leave my intellect behind, I see all the colors of the rainbow light up and look into his/hers soul as they truly are, a loving, unique person with wealth of experience and world of emotions to share. At that point all the labels disappear and CD or TS or whatever doesn't mean a thing. I feel that in order to truly embrace this kind of relationship, we must look into each others eyes and physically be present to have this level of understanding, internet however advanced and helpful tool will remain as artificial of a tool as labeling into boxes is. We can learn a lot from internet but I can we truly see the other person as they are?

  12. #12
    Senior Member charlie's Avatar
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    Hello Alexia!
    On the contrary, I believe that all of us here who dress are transgendered to some degree. Regular males would not be dressing in feminine clothes at all. I also see in myself that when I start dressing on a regular basis (3-4 days running) that I begin to yearn to dress this way 24/7. I start thinking who I am and how my life may be more fulfilled if I started looking into transitioning. I have come to realize that I am a transgendered individual that is married, that loves woman and also loves to be one. Since my life has been lived as a male, it is best that I control my urges to just those that are important and necessary to my life. After a few days of returning to my regular male life (job, husband, father) I can keep all the urges in line and controlled.
    Charlie

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    fearless transowman juno's Avatar
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    I think that it is common for people to further toward fully transgender than they originally feel, because most people start out life trying to align with a standard cisgender. I have always been feminine, but didn't embrace crossdressing until about age 40.

    As for the terminology, I think it could use an update. Traditionally, transgender means a person with opposite mental and physical genders, and a transsexual is a transgender person living as their mental gender. Transgender has evolved to include other mental gender variants, for no good reason other than nobody came up with a more appropriate term. We have the term "intersex" for people with an intermediate physical sex. I think we need a term for intermediate mental gender; I propose "mesogender".

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    Quote Originally Posted by juno View Post
    Traditionally, transgender means a person with opposite mental and physical genders,
    And also people who sometimes feel as if they are the opposite gender. Many CDs feel this way. Also those who wish to get in touch with aspects of the opposite gender, without necessarily identifying as such. The latter group is considered TG, since these individuals do cross (the definition of "trans" is "to cross") gender boundaries at some level.

    Quote Originally Posted by juno View Post
    and a transsexual is a transgender person living as their mental gender.
    No. There are TSs who know they are women, but they still live as male, for a variety of reasons.
    Reine

  15. #15
    Great Legs liz.thomas's Avatar
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    I've always wodered if there is a real difference of the words Crossdressers and Transvestites. The wiki definition doesn't seem to uncover anything for me. Is there a difference or are these just generalities?

    Liz

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    As i said in my post, i think many are tripped up on the Trans part. Being Transsexual and transitioning toward the correct gender has that degree of finality. The "crossing" to them seems to have that element of extremeness(?).

    I still can't help but see a sense of fear and unacceptance in that need to deny the the TG term.

    And many here don't strive for total duality, so therefore they are merely Crossdressers. Wonder what their reaction would be to the term transdresser?

    Reine, I liked your response to JohnH's post, and while i'm not trying to muddy the OPs waters, what do we do about the "why wear the clothing?" question. Many seem to draw their Crossdresser vs. Transgender line at the wig, make-up and shapewear level. Are we incorrect in thinking there has to be some sense of femininity being reached for in "just the clothing", seems there would have to be some need for the gender "crossing".

    mj (Cassie)
    Last edited by Cassandra Lynn; 10-20-2010 at 06:42 PM.

  17. #17
    GG ReineD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MsMjSerene View Post
    Reine, Are we incorrect in thinking there has to be some sense of femininity being reached for in "just the clothing", seems there would have to be some need for the gender "crossing".
    I agree that for some CDs, it is about getting in touch with a degree of femininity, even if it is merely enjoying the luxurious feel and the wonderful colors and styles of the fabrics. Yet like JohnH, these same CDs enjoy being men, they solidly identify as men, and they would never even wish to be identified as women. Someone who feels this way may develop it further down the road, or he may not.

    But, this still doesn't mean that a gender barrier has not been crossed, hence the appropriateness of using the term "transgender" for everyone ... even those who merely enjoy the clothes.

    Last edited by ReineD; 10-20-2010 at 08:04 PM.
    Reine

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    Quote Originally Posted by ReineD View Post
    I agree that for some CDs, it is about getting in touch with a degree of femininity, even if it is merely enjoying the luxurious feel and the wonderful colors and styles of the fabrics. Yet like JohnH, these same CDs enjoy being men, they solidly identify as men, and they would never even wish to be identified as women. Someone who feels this way may develop it further down the road, or he may not.

    But, this still doesn't mean that a gender barrier has not been crossed, hence the appropriateness of using the term "transgender" for everyone ... even those who merely enjoy the clothes.

    Yes, i agree and thanx for putting it in simpler terms, i tend to stumble with words at times.

    And thank you John for your last post (#45). I'm going to step out on that flimsy limb and say it appears that you are seeing things a little differently
    as we have gone through the posts here. I notice a little more comfort with you saying you like the femininity of dressing, as we have gone along.
    I apologize if i'm incorrect and i hope i'm not intruding in any way.

    I have used the terms bi-gendered and dual gendered a few times around the forums, but frankly it tends to just muddy the waters even more.
    mj (Cassie)
    Last edited by Cassandra Lynn; 10-21-2010 at 07:49 PM.

  19. #19
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    Liz,

    I think the terms transvestite and crossdresser are essentially interchangeable. However, they do have subtle differences in interpretation. "Transvestite" is an older term that usually implies a fetishistic or kinky sexual component. "Crossdresser" is a newer term that usually does not imply a sexual component. In Wikipedia, they say Transvestite was coined in 1910 and was linked to sexual arousal, gay, bi, or heterosexual. They say Crossdresser came into use in the 1970's by heterosexual males who were not fetishistic and were unhappy with being labeled TV.

    In curent usage, it is hard to tell the difference unless you ask the person. In broad generalities, someone identified as TV might be more into the sexual or kink side of things, whereas someone identified as CD might (or might not) be more sexually conventional. But people are all over the map in the terms they use to describe themselves, their gender identification and sexual orientation, so you can't assume anything from the terminology.
    "The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes." - Marcel Proust

  20. #20
    Great Legs liz.thomas's Avatar
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    Thanks for the insigh Karezza,

    Liz

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    Senior Citizen Mary Morgan's Avatar
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    No, no one has been able to prove much of anything although there is no shortage of theories. For me, it is enough to say I am what I am. I've always wanted to be a girl and I never will be. The best I can do is try as hard as I can within the framework of a life lived. I crossdress, but it is by no means all there is to me.
    Last edited by Mary Morgan; 10-19-2010 at 10:59 PM.

  22. #22
    Member Kelly Greene's Avatar
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    I don't believe we are predestined to find the same end on our journey we may start at a similar place but we each must follow the road as it unfold in front of us.
    crossdressing is an end for some of us and a beginning for others.
    Kelly

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  23. #23
    Silver Member renee k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexia Elliot View Post
    I know that this topic may get us into heated debate but heated debate is good in good intentions. I often read a post about a crossdresser who solely identifies with just crossdressing and that is that, to later read same person finally embracing idea of something more happening in their life. The desire to venture outside of norm and present as an opposite sex in it self is predecessor to transgender condition. To express femininity by male is to directly come into embrace with the opposite set of ingredients and therefore to state the societal dislike and rebel against masculine character. Its just the clothes you say, no, it is always more than that, the image of femininity and assimilation with feminine form. I personally feel that all gender flux specific tendencies will eventually surface as transgender and the only difference will be in an individual finally coming to terms with nagging force within or such individual resisting this urge until his demise. So, I put forth this question: can anyone prove that Crossdressing isn't a predecessor to transgenderism and a valid ingredient in Transgenderism since inception?
    In my situation, I can't prove it and certainly believe that there is more to it than putting on a dress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Morgan View Post
    No, no one has been able to prove much of anything although there are no shortage of theories. For me, it is enough to say I am what I am. I've always wanted to be a girl and I never will be. The best I can do is try as hard as I can within the framework of a life lived. I crossdress, but it is by no means all there is to me.
    Mary, I totally agree with you. I've walked down the same road.

    Renee
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  24. #24
    Senior Age Member sissystephanie's Avatar
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    Going by Rosuto's definition of Trangendered, I guess that I am Transgendered!! I have been a CD for over 70 years, and have never had any desire to actually be a woman! I simply just like to wear their clothes! When my late wife was still alive, she could make me look like a GG!! I cannot do that and don't even try. I still dress enfemme, but go out looking just like the male that I am!! As long as I am decent and observe the law, I can wear what I want!! And I do!! I ate dinner tonight in a nice restaurant dressed totally enfemme. But of course no wig or makeup. Just a guy in a skirt and nice top, with the appropiate under garments and shoes. I do that almost every day!!
    Stephanie

    Lady on the outside, but man underneath!

  25. #25
    mini kilted chick t-girlxsophie's Avatar
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    I too progressed after divorce to dressing much,much more till it was all consuming,that was until recently when my wife and I had a heartfelt discussion about our life,my femme self had taken over so that my male self took a back seat.my Wife missed him,so now she gets to see him a little more and thats the crux of the matter if i Woke up in the morning transitioned would I be happy and content,no I would miss aspects of him that would stop me from transitioning.Does that make me a crossdresser and no more,no I still feel I am Transgender-thats the way I see myself,am sure others will think different

    Sophie
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