It's odd how different readers get different meanings from the description of the original event. When I read the original post, I understood it as Jamie minding her own business in the store, along comes a curious, staring child, and Jamie doesn't go running to another aisle. I didn't pick up on the "playing it up" aspect until others mentioned it. It's really hard to know what happened and my approach is to think the best of others.
If this thread is locked we can create another thread and continue our discussion.Originally Posted by Engendered
I'm asking for this thread not to be locked.
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
Hmmm, might I mention that the father could not have been completely oblivious. If he was upset about what his son was watching he could have taken care of it easily. From the description of the event, this did not happen. Might we not step back from this a minute? Do we really know who is watching when we try on shoes at Payless, or walk down the street, for that matter? Consider that we have a young boy, likely completely bored, suddenly seeing something interesting in front of him. Wouldn't you expect him to watch? If he was under 5 years old, I'm sure that he will not remember the incident when he becomes older. After all, how much of our youth do we remember in detail?
Androgynous or mixed-gender individuals are everywhere. I imagine that this encounter was only interesting from the point of view of the adults.
tina
Well, I agree with KatGRL774. Young minds can certainly be impressionable. What kind of impression would be left had Jamie become all flustered and nervous about being seen and had scampered off back into the darkness? That being different is wrong? Any form of femininity in a male is shameful? Should the event been played up by Jamie? No, certainly not. But going out of our way to avoid any segment of the population is worse. The conversation between the father and his son after they left the store could have just as well been a positive moment when dad could have explained that the different people in the world all contribute to our experience in life and that being confident in yourself, no matter who you are, is always a positive thing in your own life.
Fulltime girl on the inside.
Lipstick=confidence
[SIZE=4]Holly[/SIZE]
Amanda - What do the following lines suggest to you??
"Since he was so fascinated, I played it up a little and modeled the shoes before the mirror, posing my foot in different positions and wiggling my polished toes. The boy was almost in a trance, and it was almost surreal."
This is what our poster wrote. I think in a court of law this would be damning evidence that the child's emotions were being messed with, and intentionally.
Not cool. As for what someone posted about the child's father - ignorance on his part is not a license to be ignorant as well. He either didn't care, or didn't notice. Either way, not the greatest show of parenting skills.
If I were trying on the shoes I would not play it up to the little boy. I would turn my back to the boy and away from the mirror. And above all, I would not post this topic on this forum. I say there is a little corruption in the boy's mind imposed by society - otherwise, why would he be in a trance?
One has to live with the aberrations of society.
So KatGRL, regretfully I have to see your point to a certain degree. However, please be aware there are other sources of corruption that are worse than this example.
Last edited by JohnH; 10-27-2010 at 03:11 PM.
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
I just got tired of all this back and forth
JonhH -
Just because there is corruption in the world, that doesn't give anyone a license to perpetuate it.
"One has to live with the abherrations of society" - you said this.. and this is true, but does this mean we should throw caution to the wind and just behave like people with no self control?
I see no defense for this kind of behavior.
Last edited by KatGRL774; 10-27-2010 at 03:36 PM.
They're not THAT impressionable. Little kids are not programmable machines. Even when young they have their own ideas, likes and dislikes.
And that was a bad thing? I think not.I can remember thinking about some of the transgender Springer shows for days after I saw some of them.. my mind rewinding back to some of the images of passable CD's for years to come)
Oh, so you're one of THOSE, a self hating transperson. You forget that for many of us, we already WERE crossdressers when we were young. And how is seeing a transperson openly shopping "forcing" anything.If you look like a man, and are flaunting the notion of crossdressing to young people - you're sick. Plain and simple. Get a life, and stop forcing your viewpoints on the young. I bet it left a lasting impression (probably a disturbing one) for quite some time.
Kids aren't that fragile, that seeing a transperson or say a handsome butchy woman would scar them for life.But please don't disturb the minds of the youth.
Dont extrapolate your individual experience to others.This is coming from someone who was disturbed as a young man. It can and does happen.
Why do you have such a low opinion of children's capacities to understand things. The funny thing is, the first time I ever talked about "This Thing of Ours of Varying Kinds" with a professional, there were kids in the waiting room.Like I said, fine if you want to flaunt it in front of well-adjusted adults who have already formed a stable mind and psyche, but these are kids. They're defenseless.
Why? It's a normal thing you do. Why not teach him that there are people who do it, and that there's nothing wrong with it so he grows up more tolerant of things when he grows up.I take pride in telling you (I can hear the flames already...) that I will not purposely give him any clue that his father has ever worn anything but male attire.
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
KatGRL, I think I made it abundantly clear I would have handled things a bit differently. As I said I would have turned my back to the boy away from the mirror, and ABOVE ALL, I would not have posted this topic.
John
Last edited by JohnH; 10-27-2010 at 03:49 PM.
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
Veronica -
Thanks for that insightful look into the mind of a child, and I think you're completely wrong. I don't hate myself either, but I know what's realistic and trying to publicly be something I'm not doesn't make a damned bit of sense.
Some of you are seriously deluded.
JohnH -
Yeah, you said how you would have handled it. But the overwhelming majority of your words on that very same post were chock full of justifications for "corruption" in the world. You didn't really adress that part of it.. just stated what YOU would do. And that's great - I just wish others shared your view - but sadly most have an attitude of "do whatever pleases me and the rest can just adjust" attitude.
Don't you think I wouldn't love to just wear a dress all day? Sure.. I'd love it.. I'd also like to sit around and eat ice cream all day..
Last edited by Nigella; 10-28-2010 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Merged consecutive posts
There is one very important point that no one has made yet! Especially those of you who are talking about the young boy being corrupted
Jamie was wearing capris and had long feminine styled hair. He also had bright red toe nails and was trying on ladies sandals!! The boy was Hispanic, and probably had not seen bright red toe nails before. He may not have even realized that Jamie was really a man, especially since he was staring at the red toes!! Did anyone even slightly consider that possible fact?? I seriously doubt it!!
That makes what Kat said way out of line! He/She is entitled to her own opinion, but in this case it would be better unpublished, since it was obviously not well thought out!! The opinion was well stated, but certainly with a lot of anger! A thorough reading of the OP should have given Kat second thoughts!! Even though Jamie kind of played to the boy's looks, he never said he was a man!! Unless he had facial hair, or a totally masculine look, who knew what he was? I have seen a lot of GG's who could easily pass for men!!
Stephanie
Lady on the outside, but man underneath!
What's the harm? There are some Saturdays and Sundays that I do just that other than when I go to church. I'm not getting fat or harming my health by doing so. And by the way, my wife never wears dresses or skirts - only pants, shorts, and for sleepwear, nightgowns. She even goes for walks with me while she is wearing pants and I am wearing a dress.
Last edited by JohnH; 10-27-2010 at 04:01 PM.
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
Snore...
You should not have to hide who you are i see nothing wrong here.
Mistybtm
The whole argument is probably moot. If the little boy does grow up to have an interest in wearing womens' shoes, chances are the seed was already planted (by nature or nurture) long before he saw the OP trying on heels. If the boy grows up to wear womens' shoes, it won't be the OP's fault this happened.
However, for the boy's long term well being, I hope he doesn't. Even a casual fetish for wearing womens' shoes can cause serious problems; the guilt and shame thing, the hiding, relationship problems with women over it, etc. etc., the problems we often see posted here by crossdressers.
see post #8
DonnaT
Let's see - a century ago it was illegal for women to wear pants and those that did so were considered insane. I can see it - the fear of a young girl of having a fetish for men's shoes and pants, the guilt and shame thing, the hiding, relationship problems with men, etc.
Instead of keeping this cross-dressing thing a secret and a shameful thing to do maybe it is time for MEN to exercise the right to wear all clothing, including feminine clothing and makeup openly the same way as WOMEN exercise the right to wear all clothing, including masculine clothing. Fortunately the laws of the land permit men to do just that. Now it is time for MEN to expand their options!
That way there would be no issues with a man wearing a dress with heels and makeup anymore than a woman wearing a baseball cap, flannel shirt, jeans, and hiking boots.
I wear my skirts and dresses, and sometimes, heels as a MAN. That is the reason why I use my masculine name.
Kind regards,
John
Last edited by JohnH; 10-27-2010 at 04:40 PM.
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
I think it's time for me to take a trip back to planet earth. I don't know what planet I'm actually on, but it's not earth, and all of you who think men dressed as women is completely normal and natural have forgotten what's good about the differences between men and women. There are differences. Embrace them instead of trying to level the playing field.
Vickie, the whole subject, content and message delivered by the poster was one of excitement and pride over possibly inluencing a young boy. End of story.
I'm outtahere.. I'm sure my words haven't changed anyone's mind, but they have reaffirmed my own standing on the issues.
I don't mean to criticize anyone else, but you do use a feminine name instead of a masculine name even though I guess you are a man and not a GG.
John
Last edited by Nigella; 10-28-2010 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Deleted reference to GGs dressing as Men - http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/faq.php?faq=main_rules#faq_respect
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
John, regarding my name - good point! It was never something I really wanted to do, but I was convinced some years ago to do that. I don't go by Kat anywhere except here. Honestly, you could call me Joe or Bob.. heck I don't care.
As for the pants and whatnot, double standard..
Deny this, and I'll grant you have something on that line of thinking...
What normal woman do you see padding her crotch, or growing leg hair, or wearing fake facial hair, or making physical unnatural modifications to their body to appear male?? Yet the majority of male crossdressers are trying to pass as female. wigs, fake nails, eyelashes, makeup, you name it - and all in efforts to appear female. A woman in a pair of shorts or sweatpants can still look very feminine and beautiful. What male CD's do is false advertising. They try to speak differently, walk differently, they pad their hips and breasts.. Come on.. there's no comparison.
You see my point?
I really don't understand what has to do him being Hispanic with him not having seen before bright red toe nails. Could you please explain? Is it that Hispanic woman use more conservative colors? Or that the wonders of colored nails have not been brought to Hispanic countries?. I'm really waiting here for an answerThere is one very important point that no one has made yet!
Jamie was wearing capris and had long feminine styled hair. He also had bright red toe nails and was trying on ladies sandals!! The boy was Hispanic, and probably had not seen bright red toe nails before. He may not have even realized that Jamie was really a man, especially since he was staring at the red toes!! Did anyone even slightly consider that possible fact?? I seriously doubt it!!
Talking about predisposition.... How in hell can you know what this father told his kid? Why do you have to assume that he made derogatory remarks?I am sorry but capri's, 3 inch heels and painted toes are not drab. As for anything else, I prefer to fly under the radar so to speak, but to each their own. I can almost hear the boy and dad's conversation upon leaving the store...something along the lines of the boy asking and dad making derogatory remarks about the "insert expletive about gender or sexual preference"
It's incredible how a forum that is supposed to foster open-mindness and acceptance has so much bigotry and stereotyping. This attitude is part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Sorry but it just sucks.
Last edited by PetiteDuality; 10-27-2010 at 05:18 PM. Reason: grammar
By the way, Kat, what masculine name would you like me to call you?
I have natural long hair and natural breasts and hips. I have no use for wigs, breast forms, or hip padding. I really have no issue with makeup since for either gender it is an artificial thing. At any rate, I haven't started wearing it. I speak with my normal "Joe Friday" voice pitch no matter what I wear, and I do not modify the way I walk except only as necessary if I am wearing heels. I have no intention of speaking or acting like a female.
I do not really have a drab or femme mode as such - I used to have long fingernails with nail polish that I wore all the time but decided it was too much of a hastle so I don't do that anymore.
In other words, I make no effort to pass as a woman - I simply like to have additional options as far as my clothing and appearance. I do like to wear standard men's suits and in this cooler weather, plaid flannel shirts.
Kind regards,
John
Last edited by JohnH; 10-27-2010 at 05:33 PM.
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
Trying on shoes is one thing, even if the boy noticed what you were doing. But putting on a little show waggling brightly painted toenails is a little OTT IMO
Regarding what is written above: Avoid friendly fire, it causes unnecessary tension. Seek clarification if theres any hint of misunderstanding.
Take care.
John..
You can call me whatever you like - I prefer not to use my actual name, but I guess if I were to pick something it could be "James". I just randomly selected that...
Ok so anyhow,
Natural breasts? Natural hips? Does that mean you're shaped like a man, or that you somehow have the appearance of larger breasts and hips (like those found on a woman)? Because if you're referring to the latter.. I doubt they came "naturally" without the aid of hormones or something introduced to the body that it wasn't expecting. I believe this would go into the category of "un-natural" since it was artifically imposed and something your body wasn't meant to do. Or, unless you're talking about excess body fat - in which case, proportionally, you still would appear male because other features would have gotten larger due to excess weight. Obese folks, although they do have breasts, don't really have a "feminine shape".
Regarding the rest - I'd say you are not the average crossdresser. In fact I'd say you probably have confused a great multitude with your appearance. To each his own - but I would bet a large sum of money that this hasn't helped you in your life much. Be it career, family, friends, etc. Has it? Am I wrong? I really doubt it.. my apologies if I've offended.
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