Compliment, Competition, or Caricature?

[audreyinalbany]

This is something thats bothered me for a long time. I'm mostly interested in the gg's responses. The question is: how do you view crossdressing? Are guys paying you a compliment by trying to emulate the feminine, by aspiring to show their admiration my copying the things you wear, the way you move, the way you talk? Or, are they somehow competing with you, trying to do a better job of being a woman, wearing sexier stuff, in essence saying, "here's how you ought to do it." ? Or, are they simply a pathetic caricature of what a 'real' woman should be? Are they in effect embarrassing themselves by trying to be something they are not?

For myself, I've always liked to emulate those whom I admire. I used to try to get clothes like I'd see TV stars wearing; I'd try to integrate some aspect of a movie characters behavior or mannerisms. As a kid, I wanted to be Daniel Boone, or Superman, or whomever. And a big part of this play-acting was dressing the part. I like to see my crossdressing as a compliment, a way of saying, "I like women so much that i'd like to dress like one and act like one." But I'll also acknowledge that my dressing certainly has aspects of caricature to it; i probably do a pretty clumsy impersonation of a woman.

Thoughts and feedback?

[Karren H]

I guess since you said "mostly" I can reply without fear of retribution... Though you don't care what I have to say... If "imitation were the truest form of flattery". Or something like that... Women would love us to bits... But they don't. So it isn't..

[Sandy Banks]

Karren's comment was simple and precise, totally on the money!!

[kimmy p]

I'm not trying to mock anyone. I just like pretty things. I like pretty/sexy clothes, and I like looking like a lady.

[ReineD]

Audrey, you didn't specify GGs only, but I underlined your question to encourage more GGs to post.

My immediate response when I first read your post was to say that I don't feel threatened, insulted, or otherwise miffed when I see a CD dressed. Nor do I feel flattered. I understand that she is expressing her inner self, and her form of expression has absolutely nothing to do with me. I also understand that CDing has it's own learning curve and it is only with time and practice that a CDer will move beyond his male perspective of women, to be able to express herself with more subtlety.

But, having said this, I do feel irked when I read posts from the CDers who believe they are more feminine, or prettier than GGs, or who say that the only reason that GGs do not like the CDing is because they feel threatened by it on a personal level, or they are jealous.

The thing is to remember to compare apples with apples. I would not compare a dressed CD in her 20s, who has not put on any weight, to a GG in her 40s or 50s, or who struggles with weight issues. Nor would I compare a CD who devotes hours and hours on grooming, makeup, and wigs and spends $$$ on clothing and accessories, to a GG who does not put in the same amount of time, effort, and resources on her appearance. If you compare a young, hot CD in her 20s to a young, hot GG dressed the same way, it would be difficult to say that the CD is prettier, sexier, or more feminine than the GG for example.

The only times I have felt threatened by my SO's CDing had nothing to do with personal feelings that I "wasn't woman enough". Early on, when I would see her radiate happiness when she had just come from the salon with her hair done and nails manicured, and wearing a new outfit, I would feel sad that she seemed happier about how she looked than with being with me. But, I didn't understand as much then as I do now. And then when she began wanting to show her curves more in public with the styles of clothing that she was choosing, I wondered who she was trying to impress, since hetero women don't get turned on by 'female assets' the same way that men do. I thought that she was trying to appeal to men, and it was only then that I felt she wanted more than "just me" in her love life, even if it was only in fantasy. But again, this is an aspect of CDing that I didn't understand either. I gather that for some CDs, their motives for dressing a certain way is different than a GG's.

GGs also are on a learning curve when it comes to the CDing.

[carhill2mn]

Mocking women or femininity is the furthest thing from my mind. I try my best to emulate the "ladies" that I admire.

[MiamiMarie]

As a GG, I actually look at a CD clothes to make judgements about what they think about themselves, not me or women in general, so I don't get offended at all.

I've read in some books (deeply sorry if I offend) that CDs tend to dress like ****ty gals when they have not fully accepted themselves or their dressing. There is also a learning process involved for both men and women in dressing like a woman, so when I see something badly assembled I am sympathetic and try to help. No woman ever painted her lips or nails correctly on the first attempt.

But let's face it, clothes are communication. They are used primarily to express what we wish to say about ourselves, not about others. If you dress to emulate someone you admire in a daily/regular situation then you are essentially saying "I wish to be admired." And when I see a CD in something that's very trashy, and not just mistakenly clumsy, I might think the CD is sending out the opposite message and is encouraging degradation. And it just seems that so many CDs start from trashy and get classy later, which would support this theory, though I am sorry if I am off base.

[ReneeT]

I understand that she is expressing her inner self, and her form of expression has absolutely nothing to do with me. I also understand that CDing has it's own learning curve and it is only with time and practice that a CDer will move beyond his male perspective of women, to be able to express herself with more subtlety.

Reine,

You have nailed the essence of why i dress as i do. I try to convey the image of how i see myself by the way i present myself. I agree that early in our dressing "careers" we often emulate what our "ideal" woman would look like, but over time many of us arrive at how we perceive ourselves.

Marie,
As I have come to accept and embrace my own idea, i do dress less ****ty. I now have almost as many pairs of flats as i have CFM pumps

[KayC]

I don't view it as a competition, I just accept that's them, this is me. I think it's important to be comfortable and accepting of yourself as is.

[Alice B]

When I dress I am not mocking any GG at any age, style or anything else. I love women, but I also have a personal need to dress and be as much a female as I can, to myself to myself and no one else.

[Jane G]

I'm not certain you are going to get the answers you want here. The GGs who post here are far more aware of and experienced with CD's than most women are and are generaly far more accepting as a result. My wife and I had an interesting conversation recently. I have always been able to pick out clothes she likes for her to wear, but recently we fell out because I wanted to by a dress she did not like, for me to wear. I didn't by it.

[DemonicDaughter]

I see it exactly the same as someone who dresses in any fashion. Be it more or less feminine, be it country or urban, be it "thug" or "gansta", gothic, whatever. I don't see how someone else dresses affects or reflects on me as a person. I don't see other gothic chicks as attempting to flatter me because they dress like I do. I don't see those that dress in flannels and jeans as insulting me by not dressing like me.

What I DO find upsetting, is how CDers see housekeeping as "women's work" or things like knitting as "female hobbies" as if women aren't more than that. And I truly dislike the constant comparing of CDers to women, you know the "why don't women wear skirts anymore" as if this constitutes femininity. Or the "I'm more feminine because I wear [whatever article of clothing]" as if that's all it means to be a woman. That's insulting. When our lives are reduced to nothing more than clothing, "feminine chores" or "feminine hobbies" and everything being all "pink and frilly"... yeah, that seems mocking and insulting.

[Speck]

Reine said:

"I would feel sad that she seemed happier about how she looked than with being with me." I can relate to this. I don't much care what he/she's wearing. I just would like to feel important to her/him but I simply can't compete with the importance of expressing her feminine side and all that entails. Intellectually, I understand but it's hard to take. I often feel unloved or undesired. And really, I believe that there's some truth to that. I mean, if you think about your typical non transgendered heterosexual male, they are constantly looking at women and appraising them in terms of bedding them, not being like them. So they have a certain way of expressing that. I'm not suggesting I want to be desired in a lecherous way...it just would be nice to feel like a priority in his/her life. But being transgendered takes up a lot of time, space, energy and money so there's just that much less left over for me. But I'm here...trying to understand.

[Sandra]

I don't see it as anything else other than them being who they are...what I don't like is when people put us all into the same group, we are just as different as the next person.

[mygirlsgirl]

"I would feel sad that she seemed happier about how she looked than with being with me." I can relate to this. I don't much care what he/she's wearing. I just would like to feel important to her/him but I simply can't compete with the importance of expressing her feminine side and all that entails. Intellectually, I understand but it's hard to take. I often feel unloved or undesired. And really, I believe that there's some truth to that. I mean, if you think about your typical non transgendered heterosexual male, they are constantly looking at women and appraising them in terms of bedding them, not being like them. So they have a certain way of expressing that. I'm not suggesting I want to be desired in a lecherous way...it just would be nice to feel like a priority in his/her life. But being transgendered takes up a lot of time, space, energy and money so there's just that much less left over for me. But I'm here...trying to understand.

I think it depends on what GG you talk to and what situation there in at the moment, how they found out, I know for me it has been a jouney of discovery for myself and my SO, it has been very lonley for me at times and I started out exactly as Tipy spoke here, that is slowly changing, and changing for the better. We have to be very strong woman to deal with this aspect of our relationships, it is very confusing in the begining and there is a learning curve, that's why I feel very Blessed to have this forum. It has helped me tremendously!

I agree with what all the other GGs have said here. I also take issue with campaing GGs, as with you, you take offense to being a CDer and how you are stigmatized by society (I take offense to that also) but I take offense as a GG has to how society has stigmatized us as GGs (stay home barefoot and pregnant, cow tow to husbands, be at there beckon call 24/7 for sex, clean the house, take care of the family, and look absolutly stunning while doing it, look beuatiful while doing all this 24/7) we suffered in silence, we cried alone, we walked alone, we were nags because we tried to state our case, we just tried to hold everything together the best we could, it is very difficult to change the old tapes!

We are supposed to be strong but we are not supposed to be equal partners, we were not supposed to have dreams of our own! That is what I witnessed in my own family growing up and that is the way it is now, although it has changed somewhat it is still a tall order. Yes, I did take issue with the femme side because in the begining I didn't understand why on earth anyone would want to emulate us as women, being a woman sucks at times! I think my bias was towards myself not anyone else because of my past.

I did get jealous of my SO because she looked better in some things than me, I did get jealous because my SO looked at other women and wasn't paying me any attention, I did get jealous when she went en femme because she enjoyed it so much it took away from me and our relationship, I did get angry she wouldn't give to me the same way she gave to herself, I was angry because she wouldn't open up to me and I loved my SO, but I didn't feel love back, that was all in the begining, these were huge obstacles for us and we almost split up over them, things have slowly gotten better, we are finally integrating and growing through alot of this. I don't feel the same way now as I did back then, I understand more now, I want my SO to be a all she/he can be, to be the person she/he was meant to be! Above anything else I want my SO to be happy! hugs, mygirlsgirl

[Frédérique]

For myself, I've always liked to emulate those whom I admire. I used to try to get clothes like I'd see TV stars wearing; I'd try to integrate some aspect of a movie characters behavior or mannerisms. As a kid, I wanted to be Daniel Boone, or Superman, or whomever. And a big part of this play-acting was dressing the part. I like to see my crossdressing as a compliment, a way of saying, "I like women so much that i'd like to dress like one and act like one." But I'll also acknowledge that my dressing certainly has aspects of caricature to it; i probably do a pretty clumsy impersonation of a woman. Thoughts and feedback?

[SIZE="2"]I forget who said it, but someone, some time ago, said “Men make better women than females do.” A male said that in reference to crossdressing/transvestite MtF’s, probably because he was one of them, albeit trapped in drab at the time. Think "surface." Please don’t shoot the messenger…

I don’t see crossdressing as a kind of dress-up role-playing – I haven’t seen the type of feminine spirit I wish to emulate, since she is a fictitious assemblage of many bits and pieces. I add new pieces to the puzzle as I go along. What I do is definitely NOT caricature. Boldly going where few males dare to tread does not require embarrassingly over-the-top exaggeration, believe me. There is no “impersonation” going on, since, as I just said, I’m not trying to emulate a specific female type. Dressing the part? For what performance? Think of this as expression, pure and simple…

PS – Albany, NY, Audrey? I’ve been there many times… [/SIZE]

[lizlizzie]

I am going to reply to this from a very personal level. When I was 30 years younger and first saw a CD in a grocery store in the middle of the night I thought it was silly and the person was so unattractive and I had no idea why they were doing it. As I got older, I just didn't pay any attention to it. As for the makeup part, glam band swore more makeup than I did.

Then 2 years ago my spouse came out first saying he was CD than eventually admitting he was transexual. She went thru the ****ty stage and even now when she dresses to go out and wears something too short or too tight, I dislike the ****ty look. When she is dressing on an average day or professionally, I mostly just notice if the seams are straight and the makeup is not smudged and don't think twice about it. Clothes are clothes and my only reaction is whether a person looks nice and is put together smoothly. I have noticed though that while she has her own style, a lot of her choices do reflect what she has observed of me in our 11 years together. I don't take that as a reflection of me, but I am complimented by it. Our choices in jewlery are very different. She is 6'2" and I am 5'1". (For those of you who don't know me, we have been separated for a year and half, while it took me about 6 months to learn and change my attitude by educating myself about transgender/transsexual, my spouse first did not trust the change and now has me totally confused as to whether she is ever going to come home although she constantly says she loves me and wants to, but nothing is moving it forward.)

My daughter does not accept CD and makes fun of people. I am disappointed by her attitude since I did not raise my children to be prejudiced.

The above being said, the one thing I do resent with my spouse, and which I have seen posted by others, is that I have to budget to plan to buy a special outfit or new lingerie for an anniversary or new work clothes, while she just buys and buys and has 5x more clothes than the average GG. There seems to be an attitude of she has the right to do this and ignore the car payment because she suffered so long being someone she wasn't. Because of that, it is many times difficult to compliment her or to appreciate how she looks. This attitude of self-entitlement I see also in many of her friends and when I sometimes hear them criticize how a GG is dressed I want to give them a reality check with a frying pan to the head.

In general, when seeing others, I don't think about it. I appreciate someone looking good, I sometimes notice an outfit and wish I had it, and I mostly think that society puts too much emphasis on how we look and not on who we are. I am more critical of young women in professional positions who don't dress appropriately than I am of CDs and how they look.

[kitchenette]

The feminine experience is rife with opportunity for competition, low self-esteem and emphasis on physical beauty as measure of "goodness." I spent much of my life struggling with these issues, never feeling thin enough, pretty enough, well-dressed enough. The pressure in junior high and high school was crushing. I rebelled as a teenager by stealing my stepdads clothes and protecting myself with masculine clothes because I wanted to reject the feminine ideal. It took me a while to even consider wearing a dress. I do now. I'm not super-girly, but middle of the road. But this was a very painful, long journey for me. But finally, I have been at peace with thing for about 10 years, for the most part.

Three years ago, I was initiated by my SO into the world of CDing. Where I come crashing up against the feminine ideal with all it's true beauty and all the trappings of beauty "products." Sure, men can be more femme than women. Of course! My SO is WAY more girly than me, not matter what s/he is wearing. Does this bother me? Only in one way - that I really believe that s/he does not have to put on all that expensive hair, clothes, makeup, bodyforms to be feminine... (even though I know she loves it.) Just like I don't have to step into heels and a skirt to be a woman. Beauty and femininity are on the inside. When she's lying nude in our bed she looks gorgeous - that to me is the most beautiful, most femme. Whatever steps s/he wants to take to feel more feminine, I'm totally fine with it. But as a partner who loves her SO very much, I feel it's really really important for my SO to know and feel beautiful whatever they wear - just like I want to feel gorgeous and femme even in a tshirt.

[Aeify]

The way a person looks, gender aside, should be a reflection of what they feel they are on the inside.

[ggAnn]

How do you view crossdressing? I view crossdressing as a wonderful way for a man to express how they view/feel themselves, in that my ex felt like he was a woman trapped in a mans body/life.

Are guys paying you a compliment by trying to emulate the feminine, by aspiring to show their admiration my copying the things you wear, the way you move, the way you talk? In the relationship I had, I can only wish that this answer was it. If my ex thought this way, he would have had more love, more compassion, more of everything for me than what he did.

Or, are they somehow competing with you, trying to do a better job of being a woman, wearing sexier stuff, in essence saying, "here's how you ought to do it." ? When I first found out, this was a thought. The more I learned the more I knew he wasn't competing due to the fact that I am just not a skirt/dress wearing female. I like pretty lacy things for bed, lounging around in and wearing underneath my clothes but basically I'm a jeans and t-shirt kinda gal. Very loaid back and comfortable which is the opposite of his uptight nature. And I found out why he's uptight. More about that in a minute.

Or, are they simply a pathetic caricature of what a 'real' woman should be? Are they in effect embarrassing themselves by trying to be something they are not? I don't beleive that one can embarass oneself. YOu do things because you like them. The only way you can embarass yourself truly is to do anything it in front of one or more people. Since many crossdressers are in the closet, how are they embarrassed? I've learned that CD'ers aren't trying to be someone they are not, they're trying to be who they truly feel that they are deep down and choose their moments for doing so, trying to find that perfect blend for their life.


More on why he was uptight: I found out he was a CD'er the last 6 months of our 2 year relationship. I wish I had known from the beginning. I do not like lies. The hardest part to get past was the fact that I was lied to. In the end he got very violent in getting rid of me. He was very mean and mocked things I said in th relationship, said he hated who I was (then why have me) and said the reason he had women in his life was because he always hated himself for being a male and that by having a female, he could feel better about himself, knowing he had better things than that female did (kind of a competition but only in that aspect). All the better if she helped him in picking out clothing. He said that he picked women that were fatter than he was and in his opinion uglier than he was because he always wanted to be pretty instead of handsome (and in my opinion he was handsome) but wont give up his biker-manly image in order to pass. By having someone uglier and fatter, he could look at hiself while dressed and say "now I am more beautiful than my other half, maybe someday I'll get rid of the moustache and goatee." When he said all of this at the end, it shattered my already diminishing sense of self-esteem that I had, any love for myself that I still possessed and shattered my world and made him laugh as he was throwing me out into the cold and snow. All in all it matched the superiority complex that he carried in all other aspects of his life.

I hope this makes sense. I read it over and to me it does, I just know that sometimes what I want to say doesn't come out the way it should so that others can understand it. Just ask here or in private, I'd be most happy to "try to" explain.

[ReineD]

He said that he picked women that were fatter than he was and in his opinion uglier than he was because he always wanted to be pretty instead of handsome (and in my opinion he was handsome) but wont give up his biker-manly image in order to pass. By having someone uglier and fatter, he could look at hiself while dressed and say "now I am more beautiful than my other half, maybe someday I'll get rid of the moustache and goatee." When he said all of this at the end, it shattered my already diminishing sense of self-esteem that I had, any love for myself that I still possessed and shattered my world and made him laugh as he was throwing me out into the cold and snow. All in all it matched the superiority complex that he carried in all other aspects of his life.

Wow. Just wow. I wonder then if this is not the real reason behind the CDs who claim that the women in their lives are jealous because the CDs are prettier or more feminine than their wives or girlfriends. :Angry3:

You're well rid of this person, Ann.

[Patty B.]

Ann ,you're well to get rid of this person, I personally dont try to compete or anything else with gg's. There is no way I can possibly do this no matter how much I practice or work at it and I've been putting my time in lately. I actually have, like it or not a professional atheletes body type so no I just have to find my own sense of style, age approiate I guess, and work with what I was born with. Just expressing who I am, and obviously I'd rather not embarass myself in this process.

[KayC]

Well I don't see it as a compliment and I certainly hope it isn't competing, I would feel weird about that. I think it just is what it is. People have to be themselves.

[mklinden2010]

them.

[Babeba]

To be honest, I don't think about it that deeply. I suppose that it doesn't really matter to me on a macro level what other people whom I have never met are doing, so long as it harms no one. When I hear about those CDers who have the opinion they're more feminine than me who is a woman, I have to admit that my reaction is usually to chuckle. I think that my ovaries are a big trump card there, and I really can't take that 'competition' seriously. If a person is acting in a certain way to embody what they see as society's view of femininity I personally think they're wasting time they could be spending navel gazing to discover what makes THEM happy on their OWN terms, not their narrow view of society's. Guess what? I'm part of society, and I really don't care what you do or what you look like. Just do what makes you happy.