One thing that helps is that I am able to express my tender observations in a very masculine voice - so the Neanderthals can sit up and take notice!
However, if I am around an appreciative audience I can soften my voice quite a bit.
John
One thing that helps is that I am able to express my tender observations in a very masculine voice - so the Neanderthals can sit up and take notice!
However, if I am around an appreciative audience I can soften my voice quite a bit.
John
Last edited by JohnH; 12-20-2010 at 10:34 PM.
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
Frédérique, you might appreciate this story. It happened earlier today.
My 21 year old son is home from college for Christmas week. He is as manly as anyone can get .. 6'4", perfect physique, keeps himself in great shape (played football and wrestled in H.S.), smart, and gorgeous to boot. He's a man's man and a ladies man too. The universe has always smiled upon my son.
Anyway, he got a new smart phone recently, and has been happily downloading apps that do all these wonderful things. He said to me, "And this is my girliest app", as he brandished the phone under my nose for me to see a widget that obtains online recipes based on one or two keyed-in ingredients. I asked him the same question I ask in this forum, "What makes you think that your interest in cooking is girly? You have to eat, don't you?"
His answer was interesting. He told me it wasn't the app that was girly, but the way it is graphically represented on his cell phone. He chuckled as he told me that he walks around with a screen covered in peas and pea pods when he is using this app. But he would never not use this widget just because it looks girly to him.
He is quite proud of his developing ability and interest in cooking things that require more than A Man, A Can, and A Plan. Despite his busy schedule, he goes to the grocery store, picks up fresh produce, meat, or fish on special, then uses the widget to determine the other ingredients required to make an impressive meal.
I'm very proud of him.
Reine
[SIZE="2"]Yes, thanks for the story. I think I should explain something, because most respondents to this thread think I’m talking about aesthetics, and I’m not…Originally Posted by ReineD
First of all, I never meant to imply that cooking is “girly,” or feminine, but one’s heightened awareness of aromas, or tastes, or textures, or colors may have a connection with crossdressing, since sensory awareness certainly plays a part in the latter. I would add “in most cases,” but I insist there is at least an appreciation for certain feminine articles of clothing amongst male-to-female crossdressers, whether the garments in question look a certain way, feel a certain way, or make you feel a certain way. You are a sensualist, like it or not, even though you may not even consider this “side” of the coin. I know, there are all kinds of MtF crossdressers, but I like to believe that there is a little more going on under the surface, independent of the clothing, which makes us embrace these sensual pleasures. If your “take” on MtF is neither sensual nor pleasurable, I do apologize for my generalization, but I think you need a certain amount of sensitivity to be a crossdresser, especially when you’re so eagerly abandoning your male appearance…
Please don’t think I’m an esthete. I went to the opera many years ago, mainly because the opportunity came up, and I gave it a try. I only related this part of the OP to point out the reaction of typical males the next day – to most men, going to the opera is a sissified activity, and I must admit I felt comfortable and “apart” from them, not as an esthete, but as a so-called sissy, existing in a different place where males and females actually co-mingle as equals. The reaction herein to this off-hand mention of culture seems to reinforce my belief that males believe in and cultivate a perpetual state of deadened senses, which happens to be the whole point of this thread. Of course, crossdressers can be like typical males who turn away from culture and embrace everything that is noisy and violent, or they can be shy, sensitive types whose crossdressing is just a part of the whole. I’m somewhere in-between, but I guarantee I won’t be all dressed up talking about male interests, not now, not ever. How could I break the “spell,” since I chose to enter it, willingly, for a specific feminine reason?
Since you may be reading this, Reine, I wish to declare that saying a certain characteristic is feminine or masculine is easy and convenient, but probably inaccurate. I think you’re the one who pointed out that these are human traits, inherent in all of us, yet somewhere along the line the more sensitive proclivities became associated with females. In that case, we males are merely trying to get in touch with these feelings, emotions, and levels of awareness that may lie dormant and be at odds with the accepted idea of masculinity here in 2010 – most men I know in real life would call a talent for sensory awareness “girly,” and thus unacceptable, for whatever prejudicial reason. The idea I’m trying to get across is sadness at the current state of affairs, where saying something innocuous like “I can smell the rosemary in the gravy” will set you apart from most males in the immediate vicinity, not to mention the officially sanctioned and accepted view of males in our society. The whole thing is a metaphor, get it? BTW – in case you’re wondering, I do all the cooking, since I do have to eat…
[/SIZE]
Recently one of my 9 yr old daughter's classmates commented about my wearing of the color pink as that was a "girls color"...She dreailed it by replying that I had lost a bet with her and she had asked me to..Anyway,on Breast Cancer Awareness Day this past fall,only one boy in her third grade class was"brave enough" to wear a pink shirt!!! I find people that think they are so "cool" to be smallminded as to put a gender tag that is not to be broken on so many things..riding a "girls"bike..LOL
I personally like the idea of rosemary in the gravy... I have a rosemary bush, and I plan to do just that... the next time I cook... I always wear female clothes, yet I can present as a man as i choose colors and fabrics wisely... and I love to stand around the campfire at hunting camp and swap war stories and hunting stories and philosophize... I have far more female friends than men, and with them I can be one of the girls... and I like that... they all accept me... I feel they accept both my male self and my female self... and that says a lot... I choose my friends carefully, and I am who I am... I am both...
rosemary's baby gravy...opera...whatever...
To believe that awareness of any one of these things has anything to do with being "sensitive" or "feminine"...well, sorry but I smell B.S. and not rosemary. It's just another way of trying to stereotype people and how often does that work? very seldom.
Last edited by JenniferB; 12-21-2010 at 08:35 PM.
[SIZE="2"]Don’t believe it, then. Dislike everyone, distrust everyone, and dump on your fellow crossdressers without thinking first. What are you getting at, anyway? Go on to the next thread and spread your ignorance there. I’m sure your trolling techniques will work wonders for all concerned. Honestly, if you’re a MtF crossdresser (are you really?), how about using a little compassion around here? Who is trying to stereotype people? It’s just a discussion that you may or may not agree with. You quite obviously don’t think before you write, so I fail to see why you are on a discussion forum in the first place. Most respondents are nice about things, because they happen to have feelings for others. Is this feminine, or just human? It doesn’t matter. You can try to get in touch with some of the things that most of us share (and talk about) around here, but I’m guessing you won’t, because you’re here for other reasons. Have fun making enemies, my “dear” Jennifer.
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After years of working around engineering office blue print machines. I can't smell much.. Anyway gravy is bad for you!! No mater what fancy pancy herbs you put in it! Lol.
Last edited by Karren H; 12-21-2010 at 07:10 PM.
I don't know what I'm enjoying more about this thread....the pretentious pontifications of philosophical poppycock, or the snarky comments of bewilderment, befuddlement and bemusement from others.
Methinks it's the latter (especially since I'm one of the perpetrators....)
Last edited by Starla; 12-21-2010 at 07:27 PM.
"Television is very educational. Whenever somebody turns it on, I go into another room and read a book." -- Groucho Marx
It never ceases to amaze me how anyone who dares to disagree or have a different opinion on something is automatically labeled a "troll". Anyway...Tima? carry on!
Last edited by JenniferB; 12-21-2010 at 07:23 PM.
Jennifer, it's not that you disagree - it's how. You claim not to like labels, and then spread your own, like calling something B.S. etc. Speaking your mind is great. Speaking it without sounding like you want to offend people is much better.
By the way, people, Jennifer refers to herself in her posts as a TS, not a crossdresser.
Kathi
Kathi, I think Mick Jagger said it best - "you can't always get what you want".
Being TG......the antithesis...to male superiority and dominance..which allows living in the moment..tactile and sensory inputs previously ignored, simple things take on a heightened state of cognition,..I value these moments, they occur far too infrequently.......
I agree with everything you say, and I did get it.[SIZE="2"]
Since you may be reading this, Reine, I wish to declare that saying a certain characteristic is feminine or masculine is easy and convenient, but probably inaccurate. I think you’re the one who pointed out that these are human traits, inherent in all of us, yet somewhere along the line the more sensitive proclivities became associated with females. In that case, we males are merely trying to get in touch with these feelings, emotions, and levels of awareness that may lie dormant and be at odds with the accepted idea of masculinity here in 2010 – most men I know in real life would call a talent for sensory awareness “girly,” and thus unacceptable, for whatever prejudicial reason. The idea I’m trying to get across is sadness at the current state of affairs, where saying something innocuous like “I can smell the rosemary in the gravy” will set you apart from most males in the immediate vicinity, not to mention the officially sanctioned and accepted view of males in our society. The whole thing is a metaphor, get it? BTW – in case you’re wondering, I do all the cooking, since I do have to eat…
Where you and I differ is that I think there are many men who can and do smell the rosemary and they are not ashamed of it. My point in the other thread still stands here. The gender gap is narrowing in many areas, and this includes a man's ability to be aware of his feelings.
I was a teenager during second wave feminism. By the time I had my kids, there was an entire new generation of women who expected their baby girls to go to college and have a career, who actually banned Barbie dolls from their houses, who also insisted that their boys help with the dishes while also banning guns (at least when they were little, as I did). I had a doll house for my boys when they were very young, because they wanted to mimic in miniature, the roles they saw being played around them in real life. They all slept with stuffed animals and had them in their rooms until puberty.
I know that during the teenage years, peer pressure to be macho takes over from parental influence, and my boys were no different than anyone else, but they always knew they could cry at home and show their vulnerabilities to their best friends and not be ridiculed for it. Their friends are the same way. I have two adult sons now who feel secure in themselves, and they are not ashamed to experience and show their feelings. They won't melt into tears if they're walking down the street and they see something upsetting. But then, neither will I. I also reserve my tears for the people that I've bonded with.
And I've no doubt that appreciation for the arts will come for them, just as it will for their female peers once all of their tastes mature, their earning powers increase, and they are freer to pursue such leisure activities. I was exposed to classical music, the ballet, and the opera as a child by my father. Not my mother. A taste for the arts is not gender dependent.
I do agree with you that the machismo mask is still present in our society. But I'm also convinced, by looking at the men that I know intimately (my brother, sons, nephews, ex husband, etc) that they are well able to shed it when it is not needed, yet have no trouble putting it back on when it is. Perhaps not all men can get in touch with their feelings as easily as the average woman (it's impossible to measure this), but many, many can and it continues to improve.
Reine
Most operas were written by men.. what does that mean?
Cigar enthusiasts smoke cigars to enjoy its taste, aroma, feel, etc.. does that make them feminine?
like shooting stars in a barrel
There are lots of men who are sensitive, artistic aesthetes, and there are plenty of women who have all the class and culture of a longshoreman. And both extremes, and everything in-between, are present in TGs as well. Trying to link these qualities with femininity is just perpetuating a stereotype that is largely a cultural construct and, in the end, does nothing to determine whether or not somebody crossdresses, nor to enhance or explain why they do.
"Television is very educational. Whenever somebody turns it on, I go into another room and read a book." -- Groucho Marx
Well done, Starla. Well done.
This thread saddens me, as well as increasing my considerable crush on Reine. I have enjoyed the musings of Frédérique, but this one seems so judgmental and defensive. If your reference to culture is really only a metaphor, then how do you measure the distribution of "sensuality"? What about the stereotypical "live life in the fast lane, overload the senses" males?
It is the implied value judgments that bother me. I am the son of an 18 year old high school dropout. Her four boys had no exposure to "high" culture, but were taught the value of integrity and authenticity. I worked hard, married the daughter of an art professor (still don't know how I managed that), and got a PhD. I sometimes feel like Eliza Dolittle when trying to reconnect with my high school dropout brother, but I am sometimes amazed by his sensitivities to the people and the world around him. Does it really matter that when we are feeling emotional, I like to listen to Aaron Copland and he prefers Johnny Cash?
There is a 19th Century philosophy called Utilitarianism, which attempts to strip away such normative judgments. It's founder is famous for a quote: "Pushpin is as good as poetry." It means that the pleasure you get from bowling is no different from the pleasure of reading poetry. How could we, as a group who celebrates diversity, place a higher value on being able to discern the ingredients in gravy than on opinions on the perfect cheeseburger? I can't tell one beer from another, whereas my brother has a very discerning palate. Does that make him more "sensual" than me?
To state that "my belief that males believe in and cultivate a perpetual state of deadened senses" baffles me, and leads me to believe that you are defining this by your own standards of sensuality. My art professor father-in-law once told me about a discussion between an art patron and a critic. "I know what I like," the patron declared. "No," the critic responded, "you like what you know." All of us are sensualists. You just quite naturally prefer your indulgence in sensuality to theirs.
Liz
I think too many people think there is an unbroachable gulf between "high" and "low" culture. I am a study in electicism. I listen to Bach, the Beatles, and even Spike Jones and his City Slickers, the 50's novelty band. I like filet mignon, as well as beef jerky. I can appreciate and enjoy the ironic and misanthropic humor of Seinfeld, the catty wit of Oscar Wilde, or the slapstick of The Three Stooges. I enjoy looking at fine art, but also revel in my comic collections, whether it be Asterix, Peanuts, or Krazy Kat. I like watching football AND soccer. And I can take just as much pleasure in viewing a lavish historical drama, a "chick flick," or a rock-em, sock-em, crash a lot of cars and blow stuff up action film. Put all of THAT in your gravy boat and try to figure out how "sensual" I am, or whether you would figure, not knowing my history or interests, whether that would reliably predict whether or not I would become a crossdresser!
"Television is very educational. Whenever somebody turns it on, I go into another room and read a book." -- Groucho Marx
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