FeAr

[RACH99]

No it isn't. I don't recall anyone saying it was kid. Several commented a SO has the right to feel emotional and rant etc etc etc no one said it was cool to ruin a life or job or family by outing anyone dear heart. Even pissed off I would never do that. And I do not condone those who use hurt or anger or just meanness to do it either. I think it safe to say the majority of us would think it was a horrible thing to do to someone, especially someone you claimed to have loved.

Seriously hun I wish you would try at least to get into someone else's head instead of being lost in your own.


Jeez, kids.


AND if you say "over something that is soooo unimportant" one more time I will hunt you down and shave your head. And if it is so damn unimportant in the grand scheme of things as you say then why are your panties in such a bunch your voice squeaks?

Rach

Say, hey are we having fun yet kids? Let's see how many of the GG members Pythos can get annoyed today. I enjoy your honesty, your wit and often your POV but I often find you abrasive and just plain ole' annoying. Like I said, just like a younger sibling. *smack*

[Pythos]

"Let's see how many of the GG members Pythos can get annoyed today"

I found that competely unecessary. My aim was NOT TO ANNOY anyone. My aim was to discuss.

I am getting a little tired of the condescending attitude I am getting from specific members. I know that if I addressed anyone in the manner I have been addressed I would have gotten a "kind" message from a mod, or gotten hell from other members.

I also do not like being called hun. Sorry.

It strikes me as belittling.

[Tamara Croft]

You don't like most things and sorry, but you are annoying and condescending to many people, what's it like having the shoe on the other foot?

It get's me how people moan and moan about members not being allowed to debate things out, but when we allow it, especially to those who have whinged about it, it's not liked... ironic

[crusadergirl]

Pythos i have the same problem when writing threads people don't seem to get the point i'm making. But what can u do. Anyways i get your point about fear keeping you from telling your girl friend are wife. You don't want to lose them. It sucks to lose friends and family over something a small as crossdressing. So far i have been lucky came out to many of my family and friends most are cool with it.
Some fear for me going out because they don't want me to get hurt. I'm not going to say everybody i know will be ok with it its hard to tell.
I always say i'm fearless but i'm far from it.

[DaphneGrey]

Pythos, I understand what you are saying about fear. It is fear indeed that causes many of us to hide. And for many there is good reason for that fear. In many cases it is fear that causes SOs to react the way they do. But jjust as you allow fear to to controll the way you dress. An so has to be allowed to rationalize thier fears, in there own way and there own time. We are all afraid of something, you, me, My SO, and everyone else on this forum. Where I think you are running into trouble is not ( as it seems from reading your post) giving SOs the space they need to deal with thiers.

A discussion about fear what causes it and how to deal with it would be a great thing to discuss in my opinion. Unfortunately you added a bunch of gripes to your OP that has put a bunch of people on edge. I have in the past done the same thing, and I have eaten a fair share of humble pie and taken a good many slaps in the ego, and dare I say have had the chip knocked of my shoulder more than once. Admit it your OP was a rant! Rants are good things from time to time, I certainly have had a few. But if you want to have a dicussion you might just bring up the fear aspect and maybe frame as a question something like, What are your fears as it concerns Dressing? What are your SOs Fears and how do you deal with them? It is just a suggestion of course.

Another point when you say things like would you rather be married to a "Muderer, drug addict etc..." It really is not a valid argument. For one Hiding Crossdressing or any forum of transgenderism from your SO before marriage is a Huge Deal! Yes the fear is a valid motivation and I understand why people do it. It opens up huge trust issues. Wives feel betrayed and with good reason, they were! Feeling betrayed and lied to is brutal for anyone and it is one of the most difficult things to forgive. It causes great pain and the only thing that heals pain is time.

[Pythos]

Okay. Let me make this sparkly clear, cause obviously it is getting missed.

The people or entities I hide my styles from

1) MY MOTHER
2)AVIATION

That's it. That's all

No where in there is my hiding from my girlfriend, no hiding from my friends, no hiding from other family members. In fact I stated my being honest is a contributing reason I am single. See what honesty gets you? LOL

Ok?

As far as my not being liked for being condescending. Please PM the threads that the op of mine is condescending. Please. I would really like to know.

I used my self as an example. Those were the "gripes" that were mentioned. I felt it would be rude to use others as an example.

I will not make that mistake again.

Oh. implying that I am offending GG members here is in no way contributing to the discussion. Which is what I was responding to.

I am amazed and saddened by how this forum seems incapable of having deep discussions without turning into a furball.

And Administrator. From what I understand, I am not the only person that does not like most things. At least from the pms I receive.

This thread has been taken completely off the tracks. For the umpteenth time, it was not about me. It was about fear and its control over ours and other's actions.

[Pythos]

"Another point when you say things like would you rather be married to a "Muderer, drug addict etc..." It really is not a valid argument. For one Hiding Crossdressing or any forum of transgenderism from your SO before marriage is a Huge Deal!"

The reason I used that is because the way some SOs behave about the revelation, the person might as well be one of those examples. Oh, and also I have a very personal example of a woman staying with one of those described.

My dad beat the living hell out of my mother. She is now physically affected by the damage he did to her. The doctors have told her to avoid certain movements because the spinal damage she took from his beatings and throwings were done in such a manner those movements could cause her to get paralyzed. Yet she stuck with him. I wonder how she would have been had instead of being a wife beating person that allowed alcohol and the results of a football game to lead him to beat her up, he was instead a nice person that liked to wear women's clothes?

I wish my dad had been one of us. I wish he could have been the nice person he could have been. But my image of my father is scared by those times he was nothing less than a monster. To the CDers that hide from your son or daughters as if what you are doing is wrong....why? My dad certainly did not hide his pure violence, I am sure that was the results of years of violence in his family.

What we do, is not a disease. It is not wrong. Why do we treat it as such?

As I have said to some of you. YOu do not know me. I am quite open, but. YOu do not know me. The examples I give are ones I have been a part of. I have also read and heard time and time again how women will stay with real rotten men, and so when I read of some of the reactions some (not all) SO's have to the revelation their husband is a CD, or TS, it just gets under my skin when I see real rotters of men, men that beat their wives, that are alcoholics, that waste the families money on alcohol or drugs, seem to keep their wives. Never get divorced and so on. Compared to those. The hiding of being a CD to avoid losing one you love, is a far cry. I am not saying it is right, but I am saying the use of some perspective is in order.

It is a valid argument because when CDs get their lives ruined, or highly damaged for a harmless act, people that do many of those actions I use, they of course have a hard time legally, but their spouse usually stays with them, and in many cases love them. Murder being an exception.

You are right in one respect though. Crossdressing is not as bad as those examples. I believe that is one for the points I was emphasizing.

Someone here posted how there is no equivelent for women as there is for men when it comes to the shame associated with the action as there is with crossdressing. That person made a great point.

[Daintre]

This is a kind "word" from a mod.....You have alienated many members with this rant of yours, yes it is a rant. This forum is all for discussion. The original thought here was about fear, which is very much appreciated by most folk here. What you do not seem to get is that while we have lived with this most of our lives, our SOs have not. Cross dressing can be a deal-ender for many people, let's face it, it isn't what most SOs envisioned when they said "I Do" and to think that it should be a subject that is only worth a shrug of the shoulders is naive at best. You need to take heed of the descent shown here.

[Tamara Croft]

And Administrator. From what I understand, I am not the only person that does not like most things. At least from the pms I receive.

I'm not interested in the PM's you receive about what people don't like here, you and them are a GUEST on this board and you don't pay the bill either! So if you and your 'friends' don't like it, there are plenty more boards you can go rant on.

This thread has been taken completely off the tracks. For the umpteenth time, it was not about me. It was about fear and its control over ours and other's actions.

LOL, go back, re-read your OP and see how many times 'you' were sick of not having this and sick of not getting the other and blah blah blah...

Your OP post was nothing more than a rant and you pissed people off which sparked a debate and angry people... if you can't take the debate and heat, you shouldn't have ranted in the first place, all you're doing is pissing people off!!

[Pythos]

What? These lines?

"Now, when it comes to SOs. I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

In my case I am seriously getting tired of being single. I am sick and tired of seeing jerks getting girlfriends or wives, or married men getting the attention of a single girl, while I sit on the sidelines lonely as hell,"

Have you not read some of the ways SOs have reacted to finding out their husband is a cder? It is distressing to read of this kind of reaction. Why is stating that a rant? Also, the other time I said I was "sick" of something was in relation to my being single, along with tired of seeing women giving real pieces of dirt multiple chances.

That was it as far as the "ranting" was concerned.

The way you state it, it is like the entire post was a rant. It was not. It was about a major controlling factor in our actions. But this thread also illustrated another characteristic of humans. The negative (the "rants") always outshines the positive (the intended point). Those four lines are the most "negative" and "ranty". The rest I guess could be seen as both a plea for understanding, as well as a possible explanation for what some here do. But instead those four lines control the entire thing.

[DanielMacBride]

I love it when a thread gets people thinking and evokes some pretty emotional responses, usually it means that people are being real Also, apologies in advance for a long post lol, but I am known for writing novels, and sometimes I have trouble trying to articulate what I want to say.

Pythos, I understand exactly what you are saying about fear dictating people's actions - I also understand why some people are getting upset over it, perhaps they have misinterpreted what you were saying (as often happens on forums, people's experiences and personal beliefs colour their perception of what was said). I personally was not offended by what you said - if anything I was more offended by the assumption made by a previous poster that F2Ms don't have to deal with the issues that M2Fs do when they come out (and as one of the mods pointed out, anyone who reads our side of the board would know that this is simply not true - I myself have lost my entire family over it because my parents are too afraid of what other people will think of them to actually confront the issue and deal with it, and have poisoned my children to hate me because of their own misinformed beliefs about who I am. I also personally know F2Ms who have been beaten and raped for being who they are, so we have valid reasons for those particular fears).

In response to your OP, you are right about fear being a motivator - and about the fact that fear also makes people do irrational things (but the fear makes them seem perfectly rational at the time - although of course not all fear is irrational, some of it is quite valid).

I suffer from PTSD and anxiety disorder (due to experiences, so there is something of a parallel with what you were saying in your OP here I think, I understand what you are saying about fear very well from a personal perspective).

Obviously that's a bit different from say, the fear of losing your loved one due to telling them you are a CDer (totally valid fear that as has been said, can raise a LOT of trust issues that are difficult to overcome) - there is fear involved in both sides of that though and I can see how it would make both parties react in a way that was perhaps not the best. The CDer who doesn't tell, because they are afraid of the reaction - and the SO who freaks out on being told, because of any one of a number of reasons (from "omg, he hid this, what else is he hiding?" to "what will other people think?" and a million other shades in between). It is also often the case that when we fear something deeply, we tend to project and make that fear materialise - well known fact of psychology, that people will interpret things the way their conditioning and experiences has taught them to interpret, so if they are expecting something specific to happen, they will respond to a situation in a way that pretty much ensures that it will. It's 2:30 am here so forgive me if I am not particularly coherent in expressing this, but hopefully you will understand what I am getting at.

Anyway, I think everyone needs to just take a couple of deep breaths and step back a bit and maybe not take what was posted quite so personally (although I have to say I think everyone who posted has done a pretty good job of staying calm when discussing a sensitive topic like this!) - I understand why some might have felt attacked but I don't think that was the intent of your post (like you, I am often misinterpreted when posting, it's harder to express something adequately in writing when you don't have the benefit of body language and tone of voice to assist in doing so). I also agree that fear is one of the big issues that is often not discussed because it *does* elicit such an intense response from people - so thank you for raising what is often a difficult issue to discuss, and one that affects all of us in one way or another and elicits some very passionate responses. I enjoy the thought-provoking discussions and appreciate your point of view

[ChristiesGurl]

Well said Sandra! I agree.

It is the lying? The fear that he doesn't trust her?

Why should he? When she is going to freak out? (as at least 90% or more of women will). Fear works both ways.

Lack of loving communication is the problem.

I am not saying I'm without fear, o heck no. I am as fearful as anyone to come right out and say what I want... for fear of losing what I have. So, I definitely am fearful.

I do feel that a majority of women ( GG's) refuse to accept a Cder as a partner..They can not handle a male expressing but not engulped in showing his Femme side although he lived male 99.9% of the time,... Sad..

True. And very sad.

When I sign up to love someone, it's to love all of them. For better or for worse. I am very naive. CD'ing just would not have been that big of a deal if brought out to me in a relationship. There is much much worse that could be revealed. Cheating, like my ex, if only online and dating sites etc...and really, I think I'm be way more upset to find out my SO was a porn addict than a cross dresser.

But apparently, I'm not 'normal', whatever that is.

[DaphneGrey]

Okay. Let me make this sparkly clear, cause obviously it is getting missed.

The people or entities I hide my styles from

1) MY MOTHER
2)AVIATION

That's it. That's all

So in the case of hiding from Aviation, are you hiding because of fear? Or do you have anoother reason? I would assume it is fear. What are you trying to say? I read your OP and see a lot of complaints, you make a lot of statements but it is hard to understand what you want to talk about for me personally anyway.

I can imagine living with your father must have been horrible and my heart goes out to you and your mother.

No what we do is not a disease and for many of us I think makes us quite special and unique. It is however a very difficult thing for people to understand even us! And truthfuly in many ways it is not entirely harmless. Not to say that there is something wrong with it, there isn't. It can be very complicating for even the most openminded couples. Some people are just not capapble of living with a Transgender person. For a variety of reasons. Spend some time in the loved ones section if you haven't already. One of my dearest friends was almost destroyed by her husband and his obsession.

No where in there is my hiding from my girlfriend, no hiding from my friends, no hiding from other family members. In fact I stated my being honest is a contributing reason I am single. See what honesty gets you? LOL

I think this admirable of you and thankfull that you have this freedom to express yourself.

Ok?

As far as my not being liked for being condescending. Please PM the threads that the op of mine is condescending. Please. I would really like to know.

I dont think you were trying to be condesending. I do think you ranted and your statements have upset many people, myself included, but I have a pretty thick skin and think you are a good person. A little abrasive but a good soul.

I used my self as an example. Those were the "gripes" that were mentioned. I felt it would be rude to use others as an example.

Yes you did and I appreciate that! I understand what you are saying and why you are upset. It is very easy and often good to say I am a great person and why does someone like me have to suffer when the A ^&*%'s of the world who treat thier wives and girlfriends like garbage. I have been there I know. But the world just isn't that cut and dry. Unfortunately life isn't fair. It is just my opinion but I think you are doing yourself a disservice by ellevating yourself over the jerks of the world and then saying so I dress different so what. You are better than your father and the people who treat women like crap and you dress different and Live the life you choose with confindence. There is someone out there for you and you will find her keep being honest, and keep being yourself. Be confident in who you are and there is no reason say at least "I am not a ....."

I will not make that mistake again.

I dont think you made a mistake in using yourself as an example, I think your mistake was that in your ranting and griping your message was lost, I like to think I am rather inteligent lady and I couldnt quite understand it.

Oh. implying that I am offending GG members here is in no way contributing to the discussion. Which is what I was responding to.

It may not be contributing the discussion, but you did offend the SOs and I don't think you could read your op with intellectual honesty and not understand why. This is forum and sometimes if things aren't fully explained in a scentence it is very easy to offend. Whether you meant to or not YOU DID and you should own up to it and appologise. I have been there and I have said things not meant to hurt but have. Go back through my threads if you care to. I started threads not thinking the way I said things would hurt people and when they came back at me I was dumfounded and did'nt understand why. But looking back I understand and have learned a bit more about sense and sensability.

I am amazed and saddened by how this forum seems incapable of having deep discussions without turning into a furball.

There are a great many deep discussions going on on this forum, There is some fun and fluff too and thats cool.

And Administrator. From what I understand, I am not the only person that does not like most things. At least from the pms I receive.

Her name is Tamara, and she works tirelessly for this community and this resource which most of us take for granted please treat her and the other moderators with respect they deserve it!

This thread has been taken completely off the tracks. For the umpteenth time, it was not about me. It was about fear and its control over ours and other's actions.

Stop answering posts on the defensive! And put the thread back on track.





Having said all of that I would also like to say that I think you are quite passionate about how you feel and I would bet they we are very similar people indeed. I have been around I am guessing a few years longer than you. I wrote this not to attack or argue (I dont do that any more) Just to perhaps give you some perspective.

Best Always
Daphne

[t-girlxsophie]

Pythos,I agree with parts of your OP and disagree on aspects,but one of your consequent posts I couldn't agree with is the effect on Kids,your child finds out you like to dress like a girl could hurt a child so much,to their minds far from being a little thing it can be a massive disturbance in their lives,I know from personal experience nearly losing my son after he found out.of course if handled right it can be seen as no big deal to those children (like it isnt to my stepkids) Its something that has to be treated with kid gloves at all times.
As for your Posts Pythos,they do one thing and that is to stimulate discussion (had both andmoments reading them) after all that is a big part of why were here

Sophie

[ChristiesGurl]

your child finds out you like to dress like a girl could hurt a child so much,to their minds far from being a little thing it can be a massive disturbance in their lives

First I want to say everyone's experiences are different, so I'm not discounting yours. I think it depends on how it is approached and the child, and possible, the age of the child. My teen is very accepting and was not upset or traumatized at all, but so far she has only seen photos. I don't think seeing him dressed in person is going to be an issue, it's just that it's usually late in the evening and my daughter is at home. When it happens, it happens. I'm not worried about it though.

[Pythos]

I think exposing your kids to an alternative way of living opposed to violence is far more acceptable.

[ReineD]

Now, when it comes to SOs. I am getting tired of reading about an SO completely and utterly acting irrationally when their SO is either discovered as a CD or TS, or admits to being such.

You've been saying this quite a bit, and yes, we do have some threads from people whose wives are having issues with the CDing. But what you don't know, and what they don't discuss in their threads, are the other issues they are having in their marriage. No one can encapsulate years of marital history in a few paragraphs. Also, did you ever consider that the "irrationality" might be caused by the erosion of trust from keeping secrets? Don't you think a partner senses when secrets are kept? At any rate, we also have tons of posts from members here who HAVE come out to their wives and life is even better than before. Why don't you talk about those posts too?

Last thing ... read from the last page going backward, in the New Member's GG intro thread in the Sticky section. You'll see there are more supportive than non supportive GGs.

In my case I am seriously getting tired of being single. I am sick and tired of seeing jerks getting girlfriends or wives, or married men getting the attention of a single girl, while I sit on the sidelines lonely as hell,

Did you ever consider that the issue might have absolutely nothing to do with how you dress? It's true that I don't know you. I can only form an impression of you based on your reaction to posts here, and the way other people react to you as well. You are sometimes at odds with people, and people sometimes respond in kind. You may or may not have the same issues off the forum ... I don't know. I'm just giving you food for thought. An idea might be to test this theory, and live 6 months or more dressed (in public only) in standard clothing to see if your prospects with GGs improve. If they do then at least you'll know for sure it is all about the clothes and not personality conflicts. But, if things don't change, then you might need to look a little deeper than society's bias against gender non-conformity.

I don't mean to offend you by saying this. I'm merely proposing an objective test to pinpoint what the issue might be.

[t-girlxsophie]

First I want to say everyone's experiences are different, so I'm not discounting yours. I think it depends on how it is approached and the child, and possible, the age of the child. My teen is very accepting and was not upset or traumatized at all

Yes I agree,as I said in my post,my stepkids have no problems at all having Sophie around,because they knew from the start,all im saying is people should tread lightly,it can go wrong,just as easy.i know this so well from my experience of NOT telling

[Pythos]

"we also have tons of posts from members here who HAVE come out to their wives and life is even better than before. Why don't you talk about those posts too?
"

Pure and simple. Because those are not problematic. Those couples are behaving nicely toward one another. I am dealing with the people that threaten to divorce, expose, and other wise ruin someone for dressing.

As far as what you said about why I am single. I know the reason, and no it is not my dressing. It is because I am painfully shy, and to boot, my work schedule conflicts greatly with a social life. I could have my self a rip roaring relationship, if I was into rape fantasy and other not so great stuff to me. My jobs are not good meeting places. At my flying school it is crassly stated as "a sausage fest". The women are usually already "hooked up", or are near unapproachable due to the crap they have gone through from men in aviation.

I have gone several months in "normal" clothing...to no avail. So maybe you are right. Ah well.

But I will ask. Why do people focus on those four lines? What about the POINT of that post?

[Cassandra90]

Fear for sure. After a divorce almost 5 years ago, I got into a relationship with a gal that I had know for years even before the marriage. I had lost all contact with her until after the divorce. She was alot more open than the gal I had been married to. I had moved in with my girlfriend and things were great. I was starting to have better self esteem as well. Yet, after having spent 13 years being in the LDS Church, it's has a way to pull you back in my case. The guilt of my daughter loosing her feeling safe in our "perfect" marriage. And, guilt only comes from sin. I'm still trying to balance the guilt of sin vs self acceptance. Between that guilt and still the fear of being a crossdresser/tg woman, I got out of the relationship. Now, I wish I could get back with the girlfriend I had and just open up. Fear, to me, is definitely coming from religious and societal standards. So, how am I supposed to fit in to these standards that don't fit for me?