No tolerance

[Sophie86]

I believe that people have a right to their beliefs even when I disagree with them, even when those beliefs cause them to disapprove of me. I don't know how to legally require people to approve of crossdressers without violating their rights. Toleration as a political concept has a long and distinguished pedigree. It is the foundation of liberal society: The doctrine that we don't have to approve of a belief or practice in order to recognize that other people have the right to indulge in it. Acceptance, on the other hand, implies something more positive than I think I have a right to expect. Certainly they have to accept my right to exist and my right to engage in a peaceful practice that violates no one else's rights; but they don't have to accept me personally.

[Rachel nylons]

When I was married, my ex wife never tolerated or accepted my crossdressing when she found out, and at that stage I was only wearing tights and high heels. The first thing she said to me was how could do I this to her and was I gay. She absolutely hated it, so with that I only used to dress when she was out and I had to hide the items of clothing from her because when she first found them and questioned me about the crossdressing she made me throw them away. Our relationship then became very strained for a while. I did ask her once if she had told her mother as they were very close, with that she replied no as it would be too embarrassing to mention it to her as she could be very scornful on such subjects. This is why I've put out this thread because I've read lots of other threads where someone has been caught by a wife or relative, even friends and has suffered terrible consequences.

[Sophie86]

I'm sorry you had to go through that Rachel.

Just to clarify, my defense of toleration above was meant to apply in the wider political context. In our personal relationships, we need acceptance. The person most dear to us has to be able to love us and approve of us as we are, or the relationship is poison.

[ReineD]

Sophie, what you say is perfectly true, but it's difficult for a wife (perhaps if she's a little older and was raised in less tolerant times), to go from believing that gender and sexual variance is wrong to fully accepting it. But, this doesn't mean it can't be done in stages. The first thing Rachel's wife needs to recognize is that Rachel has a need to express herself. Rachel's wife certainly doesn't need to participate right off the bat, but she can acknowledge that Rachel needs to explore this side of herself and attend support groups.

It's not unheard of that a wife, after some years of having her husband safely attend TG meetings or go out and have coffee with a TG girlfriend, will lose her fear that either the CD police mobs will find her husband and lynch him, or that he will be swallowed up whole by the immoral ghouls who inhabit the world of gender & sexual freedom of expression. ( I say this with tongue in cheek.)

[Rachel nylons]

Hi Sophie, It was a very hard time for me to go through that and try to stop my crossdressing. My ex wife used to say to me that I'm not the man she married, in fact I'm not a man at all if I have to do things like that and she did not want to be part of any of it. Then comes the lying bit as in your earlier post, where one still crossdresses and not tell the wife because of the upset and anger it would cause. I have a girlfriend now and to start with when it came out she was ok with it and didn't mind when I dressed, she even got me to shave my legs and said my legs would look better. Then about a year ago she got very angry one night and said that the crossdressing was starting to take over in our relationship. So with that I stopped as I didn't want to upset her, even when she said I could dress I didn't feel like it because of what she said at the time of her anger, that she wanted a relationship with man and not a woman and felt like she was a lesbian and that hurt me a lot. So now and then I go back to my house to dress, she has asked if I dress without her and to that I reply no as she think that dressing should be something we should do together but how can I when she has expressed those feelings to me before. So with that I'm on a double edged sword again.

[Sophie86]

Sophie, what you say is perfectly true, but it's difficult for a wife (perhaps if she's a little older and was raised in less tolerant times), to go from believing that gender and sexual variance is wrong to fully accepting it. But, this doesn't mean it can't be done in stages.

That's true. If she's so squicked out by it that she can't still love and respect her husband, though, then it's well-nigh impossible that they will ever be able to reach that future stage where she's okay with it. When I say "approve of us," I mean on the whole. They don't have to love the crossdressing, they just have to love us enough to be able to accept the crossdressing as part of the package. Becoming comfortable with it is a longer process, but it's not impossible if there's good communication both ways, patience on both sides, and lots of love.

Hi Sophie, It was a very hard time for me to go through that and try to stop my crossdressing. My ex wife used to say to me that I'm not the man she married, in fact I'm not a man at all if I have to do things like that and she did not want to be part of any of it. Then comes the lying bit as in your earlier post, where one still crossdresses and not tell the wife because of the upset and anger it would cause.

Lying is bad. Except when it works, and everyone ends up happy. I knew at the time, and my wife will confirm it now, that if I had told her within the first ten years of our marriage, she probably wouldn't have been able to deal with it. Even my therapist back then said not to tell her. Of course, if she had found out on her own, there would have been hell to pay. In that event, people could have told me, "Girl, you should have been honest up front," and I guess they would have been right.

Lying works best when they are clueless. Once the cat is out of the bag, they're going to be looking for evidence, and they will find it. At that point, I believe it's best to stick scrupulously to the truth, because discovery is inevitable.

I have a girlfriend now and to start with when it came out she was ok with it and didn't mind when I dressed, she even got me to shave my legs and said my legs would look better. Then about a year ago she got very angry one night and said that the crossdressing was starting to take over in our relationship. So with that I stopped as I didn't want to upset her, even when she said I could dress I didn't feel like it because of what she said at the time of her anger, that she wanted a relationship with man and not a woman and felt like she was a lesbian and that hurt me a lot. So now and then I go back to my house to dress, she has asked if I dress without her and to that I reply no as she think that dressing should be something we should do together but how can I when she has expressed those feelings to me before. So with that I'm on a double edged sword again.

You didn't ask for my advice, so I hope you won't be offended if I offer it. I know how devastating any criticism can be, and how it makes one want to withdraw that part of oneself. That's a mistake though. From what you wrote, it doesn't sound like she was trying to shut you down completely. She may not have expressed herself in an optimal way, but she gave you important information about how the male/female balance in the relationship wasn't working for her. Instead of closing that side of yourself off, see if she will help you fine tune the balance. Communication is the only way to make that work, so be honest with her.

Hugs,
Sophie

[Rachel nylons]

Thanks for your advice Sophie it's great to feel that I have a friend out there in the world. The problem I have with my girlfriend is that she never lets me know until its too late. Thats the problem I have, she used to say to me at weekends but not every weekend that I could go and get dressed and sometimes she would get dressed in a dress, stockings and heels with me. Then I think it all changed when she read a book about this woman that was a make up adviser in a department store that caught her neighbour crossdressed and then started doing his and his friends make up, my girlfriend thought that the crossdressers in the book sounded like a load of freaks. Then my girlfriend started asking me questions, asking things like would I like to become a women and stuff like that. I said no but I wouldn't mind trying make up and a wig as I've never done that before. One Saturday night I asked if she would put make up on me and I did say that if she didn't then she doesn't have to, With that she said she would but after she put on the make up thats when she freaked and said I looked like a women and she would feel even worse if I was to buy a wig. Thats when she came out with the statement was she a lesbian.


Thanks Sophie

[suchacutie]

Hmm, she said you looked like a woman? Stepping back for a minute, in one sense that's wonderful!

My wife and I discovered my femme side together after many years of marriage, and it was a bit of a shock to us just how much of Tina is imbedded in the "man" she married. That said, since it all hit us at once without any ability to educate ourselves, we immediately worked at finding out what this might be all about. We decided that to find out who Tina really was we needed to let her "have a life". However, my wife made it clear that she was completely heterosexual, and when she wanted her man I'd need to understand that was what she needed at that point. To me it seemed like a completely equible arrangement and it has remained in effect for almost 6 years in complete harmony.

After all, your femme self would like to look like a girl! I wonder if the same arrangement that I have with my wife would work for you, i.e. she agrees to help you find out who Rachel really is, but that when she needs her man, she gets your masculine side!

Oh, and the intolerance issue...omg I was shocked when I first ran into it! With a completely supportive wife it's less likely to run into direct intolerance, so when I was about 3 years of Tina, I was in New Orleans with long-term friends who I don't get to see often. I thought they were liberal and tolerant completely, but as we were walking from dinner to the casino we walked by three guys in drag (they were not attempting to pass at all, but we clearly looking at the performance aspect of multicolored wigs, etc) and the vitriol that exploded from my friends was frightening! However, I have to say that everyone else on the street seemed completely unaffected by these three in drag!

So, intolerance is where you find it. When I find it here, it is sad as we all are struggling with who we are and how we can fulfill the part of ourselves that society, in a formal sense, would rather not have to deal with.

However, it is not illegal nor immoral to wear a dress, stockings and heels. Hang in there!!

tina

[Rachel nylons]

A big thank you for all your help Sophie and Tina for your comments, advice and posts.


Lots of love Rachel XXX

[Bootsiegalore]

Obviously I missed the announcement where the world was supposed to be more tolerant? Personally I tolerate everyone but morons!!! Which sadly makes up a pretty large portion of the population...

ALSO known as the "Dipshit density"!

Rachel

[Jessica86]

There will always be a reason why society thinks you are not perfect. People are going to stare, regardless if you are overweight, skinny, short, freakishly tall (like me...I'm almost 6'07"), gay, bi, crossdresser, religious, non religious....whatever. Hey, in my opinion....if people like Dennis Rodman and Lady Gaga can dress in......that...stuff they wear....then we certainly have nothing to worry about. At least we are trying to look good, whether wearing just the clothes, or going all out.

[hhdave]

Interesting thread, I think I can relate to some of this. Rachel, I had an experience similar to what you went through with your wife. My ex-girlfriend wanted no part of my fondness for women's shoes, and decided right there that I must be completely gay. Mind you, between the flurry of text messages which I eventually had to block, and the nasty gram from her mom, I can only say it stinks having to deal with intolerant people, but she certainly showed her true colors, so no regrets there.

I figure it's pointless trying to reason with people like her, but there are people like my ex-wife who accepted my heels, and was even slightly jealous that I could walk in them. We're still friends, and even asks if I've added to my shoe collection. So, I have remind myself that people like her exist, and not to let some immature ex-girlfriend judge me.

[Rachel nylons]

My girlfiend and I had a big argument other day, it was all about lingerie and stockings. My girlfriend was looking through an online catalogue and she came across the lingerie section and I said jokingly, do you remember lingerie well it was like I had just put a match to the blue touch paper. She went off like a rocket saying that, all that mattered to me was either her or me was wearing stockings or tights and that I had a problem with nylon to the point that it was a fetish. I tried to tell her that I was joking but she was having none of it. So it just goes to show that even when we think that, what we do is being accepted or tolerated. Bang it blows up in your face :-(

[ReineD]

Rachel, sorry but you're making it worse for yourself by thinking this way. You and your gf need to stop talking about the lingerie, and start talking about your more fundamental need to express a feminine gender, no matter the form, even though in your case it may well be through wearing lingerie. It's more than just the clothes. This is especially not a good time to be making jokes about this if you know that your gf is struggling with the concept.

Of course she thinks it's a fetish if the two of you aren't talking about it and it makes sense that she will want to shy away from it, if she thinks that you get off on the lingerie more than her.

There are good books in the self-help sections of bookstores on improving communication between partners, and you may find them helpful.

[kimdl93]

Rachel, one thing I've learned is that angry words aren't always "about" cross dressing. There are times when a loved on is upset, troubled, on-edge for whatever reason, and they have a need to vent. Unfortunately, they may habitually resort CDing as a verbal weapon - in a sense to inflict some of the pain they are feeling. If cross dressing is a problem with her at that moment, so be it - you'll have to deal with it (I like Reine's suggestion). But be alert to the possibility that other things might be going on as well.

[Rianna Humble]

Life has taught me one thing,those who yell and scream the loudest about tolerance,are the most intolerant.

In that case, given my track record, I must be the most intolerant person in the world.

[Vickie_CDTV]

When I was in my late teens, A friend of mine told me that one of his favorite things to do on a Saturday night was go to the local gay bar on drag night and beat up the drag queens. I asked him why he would do something like that, and he told me because it was fun.

He literally beat up the drag queens? In the physical sense?

[Fab Karen]

Do not stereotype other groups as being intolerant. Individuals are intolerant, and you're only serving to spread fear. WHen you actually talk to some people of groups you've mentioned, you'll find those that embrace, those that just accept, & some who look down on it. If you choose not to dress fully because you're not into that, fine. If you don't do it out of fear, then you've locked yourself in a personal prison- only you hold the key to freedom. There was a time some of us were living in fear. Eventually we got sick & tired of being sick & tired, and took steps forward. A thousand miles begins with one step.

What causes trouble in relationships every time, regardless of CD'ing being involved? Lack of communication.

[StephanieT]

This is a very interesting thread to me. My marriage currently sucks and not because of dressing. She does not know and will never know but my wife has become the bitch I did not marry. I have told my story including the dressing to several women friends and I now find women falling all over me. Including wanting to go shopping. I wasn't looking but acceptance happened.

[sometimes_miss]

I disagree with the idea of " the majority" not being tolerant. We've no proof that that is the case.

Perhaps we should change it a bit, to rather than not being tolerent, they simply would rather not associate with us in any way. They tolerate us as long as we stay to ourselves. It's not that they hates us, it's that they'd rather not have anything to do with us; they'd rather not have us near their kids, at their parties, in their companies, they don't want to talk to us, they don't want to look at us, etc.. It's not hate; it's disinterest. A very simple example would be for me to not want anything to do with fanatical sports fans of curling. I think it's odd, I don't like playing it, I don't like talking about it, I don't want to watch other people playing it.

[Sophie86]

He literally beat up the drag queens? In the physical sense?

Yes, that was my understanding. They would go into the parking lot, and yell things at the girls who were outside in order to pick a fight.

[Rachel nylons]

Crossdressers can not walk down the street without being judged. It is quite the norm to gay men or lesbians holding hands or even hold an intimate embrace without the members of the general public even battering an eyelid (unlike a few generations before).

So why is this. Well somewhere between being PC and Media exposure, we have become accustomed to accepting things as the norm which we did not in yesteryears. If a soap opera has a crossdresser character in it, this would certainly help start the transition of the acceptance of crossdressers.

[Jessica86]

There's only two people whose opinions matter to me. My wife, and my sons. My wife because she has needs as well, and deserves the best. My son because I believe every son should have a father figure (even if its an uncle or whatever.) I won't let my son see me en femme. My wife, well, she usually decides when she wants that side, which is not very often at all. Simple fact is...she married a man....so she wants a man...99 percent of the time and I respect that. Don't take this the wrong way, but if I was on my own, I would be going out all the time!

[KerryLynn]

when you are true to yourself don't worry about other people. If you hold your head high and remember Where you are is where you belong and everyone else will not bother you. ((save the few assholes in the world)) You'll be fine. Just remember Rachel (you) first.

[Sapphire]

tolerence!!!


....what is needed is acceptance not tolerence. being human should not be subject to being tolerated....
Danni

Well said. It's hardly much of a concession to be "tolerated". What's wrong with a TG wanting to be loved and respected for who and what he or she is? We did not choose to be transgendered.