Geez.. another one... maybe the penny will drop.. at some point..... when woman wear pants they are not crossdressing and are not wearing mens clothes..... read the point of this thread... please... next time i will delete the post....Originally Posted by Treetop Louise
[CENTER]Be sure the brain is engaged, before putting the mouth into gear
[SIZE="3"]Sam and I Are Now Together[/SIZE]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Oh, what a load of horse poop! It would more likely induce more men to try on a dress now and then. And women who wear pants are dressed as women, for the most part.
Reine, I agree with most everything you said. As usual, you are a voice of well-thought-out reasoning. Others would do well to pay attention to what you say.
Leslie, excellent post. Whereas Sandra's original post has tons of merit, one cannot ignore and negate the obvious trend as you have presented it. It speaks to a double-standard, but it is a double-standard that will now and forever be ignored by society at large. So while you present a very valid point, the point is moot.
Any money found in the laundry is MINE!
"This is no social crisis....this is me having fun!"
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Thanks for illustrating the double standard we all know exists. Women are free to wear pants, shirts, ties and mens shoes, and boy haircuts, and no one sees anything wrong it. And they do not have to present as men to be accepted. They are clearly presenting male traits however, for whatever reason, career advancement, attitude, etc.Really???
Then help me understand the concept of "the boyfriend jacket", "boy-shorts", the line of women's underwear called "Jockey for Her" i.e. female versions of the ubiquitous "tighty-whiteys", why the garment that used to be called a "blouse" somehow morphed into becoming a "women's shirt", and why every once in a while designers like to bring out styles of women's shoes clearly meant to resemble men's brogues.
And why do businesswomen wear "power suits" to emulate men in the corporate world as a way to be taken more seriously, upwardly mobile, and career-oriented?
Why do some women like to wear men's ties as part of a mannish-looking outfit to make a fashion statement?
What was behind the masculine "Annie Hall" look that Diane Keaton popularized many years ago?
Why did pop singer Avril Lavigne raid Daddy's closet and steal his ties to go along with her tank tops and camouflage pants to create her unique edgy i.e. tough "rocker chick" style when she first started out? Girl power?
The truth is, women for reasons best known to themselves often like to wear masculine-themed clothes, and it is not only about their alleged comfort.
I'm not a psychologist, but I can't help but believe that there is an erotic component that causes them to favor wearing that type of clothing - perhaps a sub-conscious way of getting closer to their man (or being continuously reminded of his presence/existence) by feeling these clothes envelop them in the absence of actually being held in his strong masculine and protective arms. Isn't that also why so many vulnerable-feeling pregnant women like to wear their SO's dress shirts like nighties when there are plenty of specially designed maternity clothes around that will do the same job?
But if I enjoy the feel of nylons, high heels and a dress, I pretty much have to go the whole route, makeup, wig, etc, and present as a female to avoid ridicule, snickers and possible assault. When it comes to men wearing female type clothing, just wearing a couple items is not an option. At least not in public.
Sandra ...sometimes it
is simply a matter of titles.... label confusion...whatever ...I betcha there's a fair majority who just think everyone here is crossdressing here... simply because of the name at the top of the page ..and they just figure that's the name of everyones game til threads like this comes along and they stand corrected...or slapped ...lol...
I was out on Saturday night with a small group of friends. One of the women who is a married mother of five children was dressed in boys clothes (jeans, checked lumberjack shirt, heavy boots). Her hair is cut very short in a man's style and she never wears make-up. She always dresses in this style and looks like a guy. She may not be pretending to be a guy but she tries as much as possible to look like one. No one has a problem with her doing this. However if I had turned up in anything remotely feminine then it would have been a completely diferent story. The fact remains that all types of dress are acceptable for women but a lot are not for men. However I would not consider wearing a frilly blouse with a man's suit. When I dress it's 100% female (pretty dress, make-up, wig, padding etc.) and I hope that anyone who sees me thinks that I am a women.
Maybe a bunch of men need to go out together wearing dresses to a local bar but not passing as women. I emphasize a bunch - so if someone tries to assault one of the men the would-be assailant gets a beating. There would be strength in numbers.
John (Johanna)
this would be a great idea if you could find enough men that would be interested in that....
i suggest you ask around a forum where crossdressers hang out..i hear the guys like to wear women's clothes...just like you.
Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!
So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!
tina
My post may be axed, but, someone here said, that it is in the person's mind and heart, the intent, that is the biggy.
This thread is getting CRAZY! Thank u, Az!
Anyone that CAN'T see the difference between women that buy pants and shirts in the WOMEN'S dept. and men that buy dresses in the WOMEN'S dept. will NEVER understand what Reine is trying to say!
If they sold dresses in the MEN'S dept., I wouldn't buy them! WHY!?
Because I'm a CROSSDRESSER!
U can't keep doing the same things over and over and expect to enjoy life to the max. When u try new things, even if they r out of your comfort zone, u may experience new excitement and growth that u never expected.
Challenge yourself and pursue your passions! When your life clock runs out, you'll have few or NO REGRETS!
I will have to agree with Sandra on her take about wanting to appear as a women. I believe that most men who dress in female garb are attempting to pass as female or at least have the untrained eye think they are female. Now looking at Pythos' comment I will agree there are some men who wear female clothing and do not want or try to pass. That's fine I am not one of them. I don't really know why I have this desire to dress as a female and pass as a female but I do and I enjoy it so I stopped worrying about it a long time ago Call it a hobby for lack of a better term. I would guess most of us CD's on this board would like to be read as a female when we are out and about. I see in this thread there are some that don't thats fine.
After looking at Steve Tyler on American ideal maybe he is one of the latter. then again maybe not.
To me passing some of the time is what I find fun. Nothing thrills me more when some one says to me "you look great If I didn't know I wouldn't have guessed" That does happen although never enough
I could agree more I want to full some of the people some of time. Its FUN
Last edited by Daintre; 03-21-2011 at 10:15 PM. Reason: please use the edit button, multi posting is against forum rules.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Sallee
Check the profiles....you'll come to the conclusion that it's an age thing.
You do understand that it's all grey and muddy don't you? That the above categories are murky and self defined? That most of the "crossdressers" who join websites such as this have some form of transgender identity, and folks like you are less common, and even more less common in the in-person support groups.
It's not a case of "where you belong", you just need to realize that you're not like the majority here, and that the others who have a transgender identity of some kind have a closer sense of group identity than folks like you do.
So it's all the women's fault? If they all dressed like Donna Reed or June Cleaver you wouldn't be wearing women's clothes. That's bullshit and you know it.
They're not wearing men's clothing, they bought their clothing in the women's department.For women it is the complete opposite. I'm not even talking about FtM's. Regular women can wear *any* item of men's clothing *anywhere*, and not raise a single eyebrow.
Why don't you make that statement to the FTM's here and see what kind of response you get. Ha ha ha ha ha.I think FtM's have it a lot easier for that reason. They can wear whatever they want. They can even present completely as a man, and AFAIK be completely secure that they won't be hassled or looked down on.
Are you sure they're from the men's department? Did you check the tags?One example. I work with a woman who wears guy jeans, a guy polo shirt, and hiking boots every day. She has a men's haircut and unisex wire framed glasses.
I'm imagining the response
No they're not, because while that may have been the case 100 years ago it isn't "NOW". Times change.
No, because she bought those things in the women's departments.If a woman wore an outfit consisting of pants, dress shoes, and socks, and presented as a female, would she be called a crossdresser?
Well if they DON'T join this site, or the in-person support groups, then things won't change and such places will be filled with crossdressers who have a transgender identity of some kind. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
If women dressed as women, high heels, nylons, short skirts, dresses, etc, instead of pants, sweatshirts, clunky mens shoes, a lot of us wouldn't feel the need to dress up. Every now and then someone comes in here with some lame explanation why it's OK for women to dress like men. Whatever women do is OK. Whatever men do is wrong! I'm not buying it!<sarcasm> why yes, it's all the women's fault, if they wore dresses and stockings and girdles and acted just like june cleaver you two wouldn't be crossdressers</sarcasm> A little bit of chauvinism there don't you think?
Well considering that most of men who DO go out in women's clothing DO want to pass as women and that people like you tend to be of the "extremely closeted" sorts who don't go out, it's all moot isn't it.I only wish society would be more tolerant of men wearing skirts, dresses, heels, and makeup, particularly when they are not trying to pass as women.
You wish! But if you want it to happen you'll actually have to DO something rather than hide in your closet and say, "I can't go out till people are accepting"This will be in the form of crossdressing becoming an acceptable alternative for males for society in general.
John (Johanna)
There are crossdressers who wear women's pants. :-)
That's right.Women fought for their right to wear pants. We as crossdressers have not, and thus their is frustration and sometimes a little jealousy that women can and do wear what they choose.
But they're not wearing men's clothes, they're wearing women's clothes, that they bought in the women's department. I understand that your age affects your viewpoint on this, but in case you were absent for the past 70 or so years, but pants are women's clothing.
Yeah, it's just rationalization.
Exactly.So while you present a very valid point, the point is moot.
Most women aren't wearing those things, and the ones that do, get plenty of hassle. Go ask the butches and FTM's
It's not going to happen, because too many of the "Manly Men in skirts crowd" are scared. They want everything to magically change without them doing anything because they're scared of ridicule, even more so that the crossdressers with transgender identities are.
Veronica
If you believe in it, makeup has a magic all it's own -- Sooner or Later (TV movie)
We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?- Marianne Williamson
Have I also not said that "This Thing of Ours" makes some of us a bit "Barefoot in the Head"? Well, it does.
Good grief! Why would anyone take offense at something said on a message board? There are a lot of people here with a lot of different opinions. If I see something I disagree with, I take it with a grain of salt and move on. Why does EVERYTHING have to be such a big deal these days? Nothing in life says I have the right to not be offended. The only way someone can "offend" me is if I give them the power to. Let's move along...
That does it! I'm burning my jockstrap in front of the White House.Fiona is exactly correct, and here is the punch line: Women fought for the right to wear whatever they wanted, and they were ridiculed for it. Have we fought the same fight??? NO!
So, let's stop grousing about it and get out there fight!
tina
Now for the bonus round : Why is this site called "Crossdressers.com"?
Oh my gosh Sandra, you are getting some feedback in one of your threads now or what?
I couldn't agree more with her. She is dead on correct. Clothes that are made for women even if they are an ordinary t-shirt and pants/jeans etc, then the women IMO aren't crossdressing because they're (according my definition) wearing clothes that are designed for them. i.e. women wearing women's clothes.
But, I gotta tell ya I really like these two comments here:
These comments make total sense to me if you consider crossdressing purely from the "clothes only" standpoint. Admittedly though, there is for a lot of folks on here (me included) where something else is going on, it's not only a fashion freedom statement for people like me (however, I do wear obvious girly clothes but still present as a guy all the time) but when we've previously talked in other threads about what was the definition of "crossdressing" no one said you had to feel a certain way or not feel a certain way to be a crossdresser. If I remember correctly most people talked about wearing clothes that were designed for the opposite gender being the defining factor. So in that sense, IMO both men and women can and do crossdress but it's socially acceptable for one and not the other.
Now before I get lampooned, I do recognize that when a guy crossdresses it's almost certainly different for him (how he feels when he's doing it) than when a woman crossdresses (wears clothes that are designed for a man) but that's not the point I wanted to demonstrate. I was talking about the fact that "technically speaking" women can and do crossdress, but it's accepted in society as not being a problem, and I'm ok with that, I just wish that in this particular case, what was good for the goose was also good for the gander! Just my
Last edited by Rachel Morley; 03-21-2011 at 10:07 PM.
.
The River City Gems - Northern California's largest and most active crossdressing & transgender support group!
Well, guess what - I wear denim skirts instead of shorts when the weather is warm, even when I am otherwise in drab. I also walk around the neighborhood wearing dresses, sometimes with my wife who is wearing pants or shorts. I do NOT keep my "enhanced selection" a secret by ANY means.
I do my part to try to make it acceptable for men to wear skirts and dresses by wearing them openly as a man.
John (Johanna)
Last edited by JohnH; 03-21-2011 at 08:55 PM.
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
It's not so much that I am trying to fool anyone, or present as a female. I have no interest in men. I just enjoy wearing womens clothes, and I don't care for the "Budweiser Boys" look. Therefore , I have to look somewhat passable to avoid looking stupid.
I do have my hair long enough so it looks passable on a woman. And I am not flat chested, and I also have hips. So I really don't have to do a whole lot to look acceptable wearing a dress.
Johanna (John)
John (Legal name)
Preferred pronouns: he, his, him
Like Rodney King asked, "Can't we all just get along?" When i wrote , that women don't think about cross dressing, when they put on male type clothes, what I should have wrote, was, it is not an issue with them, anymore, since society accepts it, and, it does not even enter their thoughts. By the way, I have several lesbian friends, who dress like men, and i look at the heart, as God does, not the outward appearance! Can't we all just get along?
True for me too.If they sold dresses in the MEN'S dept., I wouldn't buy them! WHY!?
Because I'm a CROSSDRESSER!
The worst possible crossdresser scenario is the one that many here seen to wish for: being able to buy and wear whatever clothes they want with no stigma attached. If that happened then there would not be a mens clothing department and a womans clothing department, there would be a unisex clothing department. How then would a crossdresser like me crossdress?
Last edited by Taylor186; 03-21-2011 at 10:14 PM.
I disagree. It would be such a relief for me if dresses, skirts, and heels were available in the men's department.
Johanna (John)
Feel free to disagree for yourself. But, your posts do not speak to me or my needs as a crossdresser.
I’m a transfeminine person, but I don’t dress to present as a cisfemale. I present mainly as a feminine male, very deliberately, primarily with feminine accessories.
The word crossdresser is a negative term to me because it’s never just about the clothes. It doesn’t accurately describe anyone. It doesn’t tell the whole truth about transgender people and it says too much about cisgender people. I think everyone should be offended by this label.
This. Women aren't ever crossdressers in Western society (except the aforementioned MtF wearing women's clothing, which wouldn't count as a woman, ack, you know what I mean!). We aren't crossdressers because our grandmothers fought this fight for us. Thank you Marlene Dietrich and Katharine Hepburn. So it doesn't matter if we get a little twinge of pleasure putting on a power suit or men's motorcycle boots. We aren't put in a box.
This shows you are only focusing on that one section of crossdressers who do it for gender reasons - as Joanne said there is a big difference between crossdressers and gendercrossers. Many crossdressers do not wear clothes to feel better about themselves, they do it because it is fun, exciting, stimulating and is great escapism from their male role and responsibilities. Others because they just like the look and want personal choice.
Precisely! Crossdressers who do not feel they are part woman do not go to TG support groups.
Actually quite the opposite the numbers are large. Many crossdressers have only a small stash of lingerie, others have no stash and borrow their wives' lingerie. If they were transgendered they would hardly just focus on lingerie? Even when you do see crossdressers in public, many of them are only interested in presenting as hookers. Again is this what a transgendered person would do?
Large numbers of crossdressers are not transgendered. They are merely intertested in enjoying very specific female gender roles. The sheer number and volume of traffic of what you call fetish crossdressing sites should not be ignored. They started off the same way and have the same fantasies as transgendered crossdressers but their interpretation of what their behavior meant to them differs.
Getting back to the main point, all the arguments revolve around people mixing up the term crossdresser and the action of crossdressing. The overwhelming choice of women to buy pants over skirts does reflect a deliberate choice and it is not fashion because fashion houses overwhelmingly put women in skirts and dresses. You said a person's clothing choice reflects their internal landscape. So what does a woman's choice to wear only pants and not skirts reflect? And no lame excuses like comfort thanks.
I want to be judged for who I am not what I am. Thank you for listening.
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