We are not crossdressers.....and we get fed up of being told we are

[Sandra]

Ok we have some threads on here about why it’s ok for women to wear trousers/pants and say that we are crossdressing. Well we are not.
1. We are not trying to present as a male unless the woman is FtM
2. We don’t go around wearing binders
3. We don’t stuff our trousers
Basically we just wear the clothes that are designed for us. Some will say what about wearing our SO’s top etc, yes some may wear those clothes but again we are not trying to emulate a male.

Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman.

Of course all of this goes out of the window if you are FtM, and they have just as many problems as an MtF has if not more. I just wonder of you realise how much anger and hurt some of these comments cause the FtMs, becasue a lot on here still class the FtMs as females and not males.

[JohnH]

Sandra,

I have a dress on over a pair of Hanes men's briefs. That's it for the underwear. I don't have any makeup on.
I am not trying to present as a female.
I don't have breast forms on. I don't own any.
I don't wear wigs nor own any.
As far as makeup is concerned is sometimes I will wear lipstick and blush with my standard men's business casual clothes as well as sometimes when I wear dresses.

For my avatar - the only addition that I had was heeled shoes.

So why would I as a man be considered a crossdresser with the description above?

In the early days of pants on women they had to wear men's pants since women's pants were not available. When was the last time you found skirts and dresses designed for men that were readily available and at a reasonable price?

Some people even take issue when I wear the following: a denim skirt with a man's T-shirt and hiking boots.

Something to consider: the number of F2M members of this website is a tiny fraction of the members, where the overwhelming members are M2F. However, I can see how it would really be tough to be F2M.

See what I mean with the double-standards in society?

John

[Anne2345]

Hello Sandra! You are correct to point this out. The two are apples and oranges. Interestingly, until just recently joining this forum and seeing the ocassional reference to which you speak, the thought or issue had never crossed my mind. Obviously I am very much in tune with my female crossdressing, and others like me, because we do so with the specific intent of portraying and/or "becoming" females. The same can not be said about women wearing what may be considered masculine clothing, unless there is specific intent to portray males. And this is acceptable and common in our society, as it should be. My wife will occassionally wear clothing that may be considered masculine, but she is not doing so for the same reasons that I wear female clothes, and I would never compare what she does to what I do. Very well stated, Sandra.

[Robynts]

Sandra,

Your points are well taken. I don't think that people that post about women in men's clothing are pointing the finger at women and saying they are crossdressing. I suspect they are actually pointing out a deep seated in jealousy. Most crossdressers, myself included, wish we would not be judged when we wear women's clothing. Typically, not always, a woman in men's clothing is not noticed, there are no comments, no funny stares or giggling from people as they walk by.

I myself envy women who are able to wear pretty clothing whenever they want. Can you just imagine what my retired Admiral boss would say if I wore a lacy blouse with my suit?

As for the FtM, they do have a tough row-to-hoe, possibly much more difficult than the typical MtF. I have been fortunate to meet many wonderful FtMs at SCC and other times in my life. I can say that many of them hurt as much as any MtF. In many ways they have the same issues as we genetic males, but it appears to me that they have a much smaller support group.

Hopefully, all of us can be sensitive to the feelings of the genetic women, and FtM's on the site. We are all on similar journeys or, at the least, trying to deal with loved ones who are on the journey.

Robyn

[Eryn]

Sandra, as someone who has been on this site for a long time you must have seen this issue addressed hundreds of times. You must realize that one protest won't make a lot of difference.

Do you realize that it is equally insensitive to stereotype the intent of CDers? Many CDers are focused on self-expression and aren't interested in being perfect emulations of women. I have a ruffled floral top that fits me perfectly. Apparently it was designed to fit me. It's pretty and I like to wear it. If you saw me wearing it you'd still likely insist that I'm trying to emulate a woman even if I was otherwise in drab. It isn't fair, but prejudice exists in all forms.

[Alisa]

I just wonder of you realise how much anger and hurt some of these comments cause the FtMs, becasue a lot on here still class the FtMs as females and not males.

Hey Sandra, I made the mistake of referring to boys/FtoM as GG. I was corrected by a mod but it was just slip. Honestly! The mod pointed out that GG fought and won the right wear pants years ago... Not sure I understand how that is relevant... but did not argue the point because I like the mod who corrected me. Anyway, I like women in in jeans, trousers, etc.. Form fitting pants can be very sexy...

Rant right back at you hun...

Love,
Alisa

[Jannine]

Hey Sandra,
Just for my benefit, would you have any stats on FtMs? Like what is the incidence in the US. for example? I would think it not as prevalent as MtFs, especially so here in Australia. The number of boys that desire to be girls is overwhelming. Or is it ??
Jannine. x

[GaleWarning]

Bugger! Now I am even more confused than I was before!

I thought I had sorted out in my head the difference between CD, TV, TS, ... and had firmly come to the conclusion that I was a male CDer who enjoyed wearing women's clothes.

Now Sandra would have me believe that I am not a CDer, because
1. I am not trying to present as afemale when I have a dress on.
2. I don't even try to tuck.
3. I don't stuff my bra (when I wear one).

Again, I am definitely NOT trying to emulate a female.

And I get SO MAD when certain posters insist on referring to us collectively as "girls".

Now I have problems ... if I am not a CDer, should I be on this forum?
And if not, where do I belong?
AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!

[Kelly DeWinter]

Sandra,

I was wondering when this particualr pot was going to boil over. You expressed the point very well. The societal norms for women includes clothing once reserved for men. Ther reverse cannot be said for mens fashion. Probably because womens fashion designers have allways been more aggressive in incorperating anything in designing clothes. Mens fashion designers on the other hand tradititionally only change the pants cuff, lapel or tiew width.

[Cynthia Anne]

I read through your post twice to make sure I didn't miss anything! I couldn't agree with you more! Thank you for making it so clear and correct!

[dawnmarrie1961]

I hate all these labels. "FTM,MTF, SO,CD,PHD,MFP, and so on...and so on." Why can't we all just be people instead of being divided up into groups according to gender, race, age or whatever. Is it so important to belong to a group? What ever happened to individuality? Did that die with the 60's? What we were so afraid of becoming back then is what we have become now,, a homogenized and pasteurized product of an unrealistic ideology that values tolerance but doesn’t practice it.

[Mary Morgan]

Sandra is right on the mark from my point of view. I wear womens clothing, but I also wear makeup, breast forms, and other foundation enhancements because I want to appear to be a woman. I do not want to appear to be a man in clothing normally worn by women. This whole issue of being defined as a crossdresser confuses the issue. Crossdressing is what I do because I want to be seen as a woman. For me anyway, it is not just about the clothes.

[Debglam]

Most of you on here are trying to emulate a female and this is where the difference is, you want/try to be as near dam it female, whereas a female just wears the clothes and still presents as a woman.

Good post Sandra. It is about the "why" and not the "what."

I think that it IS true that the norms of society make it much easier for a woman to wear traditionally masculine clothes than for a man to wear traditionally feminine clothes. That may not be fair but the clothes are the "what." I don't wear female clothes when I dress because they are comfortable, etc., I wear them because it is how I can express my feminine side. The "why."

I don't think most women wearing guy's jeans and flannel shirts do it to feel masculine. If they do then maybe they are FTM, again the "why."

Thanks,
Debby

[Fab Karen]

An old issue on this site. Some of the members are living in the long-gone past.

And btw, I'm not a crossdresser... I don't do crucifixes.

[Pythos]

Sandra. I am one that wishes. WISHES I could wear a skirt and hose or other "feminine" items as a male. Unfortunately I would damage my reputation. This is a fact, not perception. A man wearing feminine clothing even IF he is wearing them as a male IS STILL CALLED A CROSSDRESSER!!! I hear stuff like they should only wear kilts and other such non sense.

My wearing leggings I know is affecting my dating prospects. I don't wear them at or anywhere near the airfield, and wish every day I do that that I would just buck the trend and don a pair opposed to the jeans I am forced to wear for all intents and purposes.

I will say again, I don't think most men that cross dress to pass as women would really have ventured into it if it was not for the fact we males ARE limited in what we can wear. Women are also limited, but you are in no way near as limited this modern era.

[Alyla]

I hate all these labels. "FTM,MTF, SO,CD,PHD,MFP, and so on...and so on." Why can't we all just be people instead of being divided up into groups according to gender, race, age or whatever. Is it so important to belong to a group? What ever happened to individuality? Did that die with the 60's? What we were so afraid of becoming back then is what we have become now,, a homogenized and pasteurized product of an unrealistic ideology that values tolerance but doesn’t practice it.

::stands up and applauds::

Right on!! I could not agree more. Perhaps it is society that has gone dysphoric in this day and age. I am me. period. Get used to it. I will wear what I want. No more dress codes. Computers and technology have turned us into a binary society and our values seem to have become black and white. Enough of polarizing dichotomies already . Please. Peace and LOve. Just imagine!

[Phoebe P.]

Ummm... Why do you get offended by opinions of people posted on a message board. I think it is jealousy on the part of the males on the board that wish we could wear whatever we want when we want. Just as you are venting, I think the posts that make you angry are venting by other members. I don't think anyone is saying you're walking around with a cucumber in your Levi's! At one time, women weren't "allowed" to wear pants. Now women can wear anything a man can wear and it's no big deal. My brother's prom date back in the day wore a tux! If my brother had worn a prom dress... He'd have gotten beaten up in the parking lot!

Don't be angry. We know you are wearing women's jeans and shirts (although it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to shop in the men's section). I would think that amount of freedom would make you happy, not angry! Can't we all just get along?

[Cristi]

Some will say what about wearing our SO’s top etc, yes some may wear those clothes but again we are not trying to emulate a male.

Exactly. *I* may wear a skirt at times but am not trying to emulate a female. Exactly the same thing, just reversed. If you do NOT see that, then you are using a double standard (not to mention painting everybody on this board with a VERY broad brush).

99% of the time I crossdress, that is all I do. Just put on a skirt or dress instead of pants or shirt. No makeup, no forms.

As far as 'Most of us trying to emulate a female'. Though many do, there are almost as many different reasons as there are people on this forum. One that you might not have considered is that it is outright dangerous to be 'different' in this society (have you SEEN the rate of violence against CD/TG/TS people?). Many of the people you are trying to condem may just be using makeup/forms/etc so they can go out safely without violence as retribution for how they want to dress... something YOU don't have to worry about when putting on a men's t-shirt.

And finally. Why does it bother you so much to be told that you ARE a crossdresser? If you truly don't see anything wrong with diversity, being called a crossdresser for what you do would hold no more power over you than calling you a blonde, or short, or a person with freckles. Just the fact that it upsets you sets off alarm bells for me about your level of acceptance of diversity.

[Debb]

I'm with dawnmarrie1961. I'm sick of labels. They tend to lead to stereotypes, while stemming from stereotypes at the same time.

[Phoebe P.]

To take it to an extreme, Lesbian sex is "perfectly acceptable" to many and can be introduced to the heterosexual bedroom in Western culture. The movie Bound comes to mind. Gay sex portrayed in movies is very controversial, however -- not that there's anything wrong with that to quote Seinfeld!

Granted that is an extreme, but it does point out the double standard.

Be happy you can wear whatever you want and don't be angry, be happy!

[BLUE ORCHID]

WoW Sandra, Now I'm really confused I don't know what I am.

Orchid

[sissystephanie]

A Crossdresser wears the clothing of the opposite sex for whatever reason they use. A GG who wears pants and a shirt is most likely wearing clothing that has been made for a female!! That is NOT crossdressing! On the other hand, Johanna, when you, a male, wear a dress you are definitely crossdressing, simply becaue you are wearing clothing that is made for a female!! I do not try to be a woman and have no desire to do so, but I do wear female clothing quite often! Yes, I am a crossdresser!! And Orchid, I am pretty sure you are too!

[Alisa]

A Crossdresser wears the clothing of the opposite sex for whatever reason they use. A GG who wears pants and a shirt is most likely wearing clothing that has been made for a female!! That is NOT crossdressing! On the other hand, Johanna, when you, a male, wear a dress you are definitely crossdressing, simply becaue you are wearing clothing that is made for a female!! I do not try to be a woman and have no desire to do so, but I do wear female clothing quite often! Yes, I am a crossdresser!! And Orchid, I am pretty sure you are too!

Thank god! Finally a voice of reason, wisdom....

[darla_g]

i think its just that the convention for mode of dress is so much more limiting than that of women. I say wear whatever you want.

[JohnH]

Believe me, if skirts and dresses were sold to men at reasonable prices, I would certainly buy them! If I had money I would buy kilts.

I do not wear women's pants or shirts. Let's see - if my breasts continue to grow due to gynecomastia I suppose I would be able to buy bras for men (Lots of luck!) I will NOT bind my breasts!

Women who bought men's pants when they were working to get pants wearing acceptable would have been crossdressers.

John